Carucci's update on coaching search

[Best Player Available]

I'm not trying to be a jerk either, but here's an article about EJ from right after he was drafted. Granted, comparisons to Geno Smith and Barkley don't carry much weight now, but if we're just talking about the numbers...

 

Also, look at how much better EJ was on the move, something I swear I've heard numerous people around here say he can't do.

 

It's foolish to give up on him at this point.

Interesting, I would not give up on him.But I sure has heck would demand Whaley has a solid and not a last second back up plan. In fact I would throw some money at any quality FA QB out there, I think Glennon will be available and would be great camp competition. the chances are slim one will get cut. but I also would not pay Cutler his contract in a trade either.

[OldNMBillsFan]

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk either, but here's an article about EJ from right after he was drafted. Granted, comparisons to Geno Smith and Barkley don't carry much weight now, but if we're just talking about the numbers...

 

Also, look at how much better EJ was on the move, something I swear I've heard numerous people around here say he can't do.

 

It's foolish to give up on him at this point.

I agree, lets give the kid a chance. This video was posted before, but it should be brought up again.

[eball]

Interesting, I would not give up on him.But I sure has heck would demand Whaley has a solid and not a last second back up plan. In fact I would throw some money at any quality FA QB out there, I think Glennon will be available and would be great camp competition. the chances are slim one will get cut. but I also would not pay Cutler his contract in a trade either.

 

Whaley is on record that there will be one or two more arms in camp to compete. I believe him.

[Snorom]

common firggin sense says you are going to find a coach who has a plan for a young QB whether it be the one on the roster or the next one.

[Beef Jerky]

I hope the Bills have a QB competition... I just don't see EJ getting any better.

[bananathumb]

Good for Whaley. Marrone threw a season of EJ's development away.

Just don't saddle him with Howdy Doody again.

[Ronin]

--Whaley wants HC to develop EJ

 

Of course he does. Last season he poured all of his resources into trying to correct incorrectable things about Manuel. I'm sure that he's shocked that he still has a job and can thank Mr. "Golly Gee, I'm the new owner of the Bills" for even still having a significant job.

 

I'm guessing he'd trade the entire draft if he could to find a way to make EJ go. Hence our problem. His remaining in place is going to cost this organization for a long time and us as fans too.

[purple haze]

It's amazing how quickly fans give up on young players.

It's the world we live in. If it doesn't happen right away it must be no good. Whaley is doing exactly what he should be doing. Seeing how a new coach would develop E.J. He should bring in other QB's as well, as he himself stated he would, but giving up on the guy after 14 games would be counterproductive.

Edited January 6, 2015 by purple haze

[kota]

DUH

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Interesting, I would not give up on him.But I sure has heck would demand Whaley has a solid and not a last second back up plan. In fact I would throw some money at any quality FA QB out there, I think Glennon will be available and would be great camp competition. the chances are slim one will get cut. but I also would not pay Cutler his contract in a trade either.

 

You can DEMAND all you like, but QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick are starting in the NFL because quality NFL capable starters are in hot demand and low supply.

 

Who do you recommend we go after, who is actually available, as that solid backup plan?

 

Please don't tell me Glennon. I've been in this in another thread. Tampa needs 2 QB even if they draft Mariota. Let's see, I'm Tampa, do I keep McCown to whom I owe $5.2 M for 2015 but no dead money or Glennon who is signed for 2 years at $600k/yr? Glennon had a better year than McCown, who threw more picks than TDs and had a worse completion percentage. Decisions, decisons. (Hint: McCown gets cut and Glennon stays)

 

If we want Glennon, we're going to have to trade someone or something very juicy to Tampa, something that will make up to them for keeping an older, much more expensive QB who isn't signed past next year and whose stats weren't as good. Who do you DEMAND Whaley give up for him, to establish this solid backup plan you DEMAND Whaley have?

[BillsVet]

Bills fans talking themselves into Hackett

 

Jesus this is depressing

Don't worry, it'll end in about 8 months.

 

Then we can find out whether or not EJ is Akili Smith v2.0.

Edited January 6, 2015 by BillsVet

[Hapless Bills Fan]

common firggin sense says you are going to find a coach who has a plan for a young QB whether it be the one on the roster or the next one.

 

I guess we're all Snorom cuz we needed to be told that?

[bisonbrigade]

I thought EJ should have been benched and have doubts about him. Saying that, there is reason to believe another coach may be able to get something out of him. What do we know about what Marrone was telling Manuel?

 

He was telling him:

To run out of bounds.

Don't take risks.

Don't turn the ball over.

Play safe.

 

And if what Marrones former colleague was saying is true, that he thinks about his next job as soon as he is hired, there's no way he would put the time in to even develop Manuel.

Agreed. When Orton took over at QB, he played almost the same as EJ. Marrone's caveman offense.

[IDBillzFan]

I think that is what happened to Orton too. The guy regressed dramatically as the season went on. Went from downfield baller to 3-yard check downs.

 

The thing that was pissing me off about Orton: In the beginning of his season, I was impressed by how willing he was to stand in the pocket and throw, even when he knew he was about to get clobbered. By the end of the season, the minute any defender was near him, he'd collapse like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.

 

With all the dirt being thrown on Marrone, I'm increasingly convinced Orton was essentially told to avoid the turnovers by laying down upon being hit, and live to fight another day, which would explain the multiple times when the look on Orton's face was one of disbelief, as in "Who the hell is calling this stupid play?"

[plenzmd1]

Don't worry, it'll end in about 8 months.

 

Then we can find out whether or not EJ is Akili Smith v2.0.

I am president of the Hackett fan club.

 

8 months brings us to first week August , after 1st preseason game..your prolly right, i will hate him in eights months

[CountDorkula]

come on. you guys have seen Manuel. The guy has almost zero control or touch over his throws. Nobody can coach that. Not to mention he was doing a good job getting receivers hurt.

 

We have also found out recently that this offense was effed because of the HC tendancies. What effect that has/had, we have no idea

[NoSaint]

Of course he does. Last season he poured all of his resources into trying to correct incorrectable things about Manuel. I'm sure that he's shocked that he still has a job and can thank Mr. "Golly Gee, I'm the new owner of the Bills" for even still having a significant job.

 

I'm guessing he'd trade the entire draft if he could to find a way to make EJ go. Hence our problem. His remaining in place is going to cost this organization for a long time and us as fans too.

 

im sure if one of the coaches walked in with an amazing plan for qb that wasnt EJ, we wouldnt shun it --- i think the issue is there isnt anyone better available (atleast YET)

[BADOLBILZ]

at some point a large segment of this board accepted that accuracy never improves for a qb. as the game slows, protection improves, and the scheme makes more sense along with having guys work with him on fine tuning mechanics, its silly to think that it couldnt improve.... in fact it should, some, unless a guy got a heavy dose of PTSD behind his line and a crazy coach in his ear.

 

 

My opinion of EJ hasn't changed since he was drafted. He's a project with a very good ceiling. One of his problems is that he is so huge that he has struggled with his mechanics.

 

The guy as a 7' wingspan.

 

He is all arms and legs and any fan of baseball knows that that combination in a thrower makes it harder to harness mechanics. But very often they can. See Randy Johnson as a prime example. Went from not being able to throw a strike in his 20's to becoming precise at 30.

 

To avoid a Byron Leftwich-type long release....by basically shortening his arm.... EJ uses an abbreviated throwing motion which keeps his elbow parallel to his shoulder thru most of his motion. But he still has long legs to deal with and his footwork was abysmal as a rookie.

 

He worked on it all offseason but the guy just wasn't ready to impersonate a pocket passer.

 

If they insist on him playing pocket passer, it could take years to hone his combination of physical awkwardness and mental unpreparedness.

 

IMO no coaches or GM have time for that.

 

I say cut the guy......and a number of young QB's....LOOSE. Put them in an up-tempo attack and give them easy reads and let them use their feet.

 

In a lot of respects creating a pocket passer is very much about taking the athlete out of these guys. What's the difference if they tear up a knee and never make it or flame out like JP Losman? Let them play and have re-inforcements at the ready.

Edited January 6, 2015 by BADOLBEELZ

[In space no one can hear]

Bills fans talking themselves into Hackett

 

Jesus this is depressing

+1

[Best Player Available]

You can DEMAND all you like, but QB like Ryan Fitzpatrick are starting in the NFL because quality NFL capable starters are in hot demand and low supply.

 

Who do you recommend we go after, who is actually available, as that solid backup plan?

 

Please don't tell me Glennon. I've been in this in another thread. Tampa needs 2 QB even if they draft Mariota. Let's see, I'm Tampa, do I keep McCown to whom I owe $5.2 M for 2015 but no dead money or Glennon who is signed for 2 years at $600k/yr? Glennon had a better year than McCown, who threw more picks than TDs and had a worse completion percentage. Decisions, decisons. (Hint: McCown gets cut and Glennon stays)

 

If we want Glennon, we're going to have to trade someone or something very juicy to Tampa, something that will make up to them for keeping an older, much more expensive QB who isn't signed past next year and whose stats weren't as good. Who do you DEMAND Whaley give up for him, to establish this solid backup plan you DEMAND Whaley have?

the league year isn't even over sit tight. And your Glennon theory it is pure SPECULATION you know nothing. Just like me and almost every person here. Quit talking like what you THINK is bible, it is not dude. But yea if i just dropped north of a billion I would DEMAND and effing improvement from a GM who while doing some good trades, drafted a few good players, has totally crapped out on both the the O- line and now that he is seemingly taking ownership on Manuel the QB position. laughable the starting QB who got maroons winning record was on a couch A week or so before the season opener. There was a reason for that it goes beyond whatever maroon and hackett wanted too. EJ for whatever reason was not cutting it. watch the 2013 tampa game, this years houston game if you need video proof. Sure EJ will get his shot I like the kid. I think his chances are slim, but I like you and everyone is speculating on a football blog. Not a war room or team FO.

[NoSaint]

 

 

My opinion of EJ hasn't changed since he was drafted. He's a project with a very good ceiling. One of his problems is that he is so huge that he has struggled with his mechanics.

 

The guy as a 7' wingspan.

 

He is all arms and legs and any fan of baseball knows that that combination in a thrower makes it harder to harness mechanics. But very often they can. See Randy Johnson as a prime example. Went from not being able to throw a strike in his 20's to becoming precise at 30.

 

To avoid a Byron Leftwich-type long release....by basically shortening his arm.... EJ uses an abbreviated throwing motion which keeps his elbow parallel to his shoulder thru most of his motion. But he still has long legs to deal with and his footwork was abysmal as a rookie.

 

He worked on it all offseason but the guy just wasn't ready to impersonate a pocket passer.

 

If they insist on him playing pocket passer, it could take years to hone his combination of physical awkwardness and mental unpreparedness.

 

IMO no coaches or GM have time for that.

 

I say cut the guy......and a number of young QB's....LOOSE. Put them in an up-tempo attack and give them easy reads and let them use their feet.

 

In a lot of respects creating a pocket passer is very much about taking the athlete out of these guys. What's the difference if they tear up a knee and never make it or flame out like JP Losman? Let them play and have re-inforcements at the ready.

ill more or less agree and appreciate the thoughtful post on his mechanics -

 

and it buys you time to work with them on some of the other things. embrace what they do well instead of forcing what they struggle at and maybe you get the confidence and time to iron out some of the challenges they face.

Edited January 6, 2015 by NoSaint

[dave mcbride]

 

 

My opinion of EJ hasn't changed since he was drafted. He's a project with a very good ceiling. One of his problems is that he is so huge that he has struggled with his mechanics.

 

The guy as a 7' wingspan.

 

He is all arms and legs and any fan of baseball knows that that combination in a thrower makes it harder to harness mechanics. But very often they can. See Randy Johnson as a prime example. Went from not being able to throw a strike in his 20's to becoming precise at 30.

 

To avoid a Byron Leftwich-type long release....by basically shortening his arm.... EJ uses an abbreviated throwing motion which keeps his elbow parallel to his shoulder thru most of his motion. But he still has long legs to deal with and his footwork was abysmal as a rookie.

 

He worked on it all offseason but the guy just wasn't ready to impersonate a pocket passer.

 

If they insist on him playing pocket passer, it could take years to hone his combination of physical awkwardness and mental unpreparedness.

 

IMO no coaches or GM have time for that.

 

I say cut the guy......and a number of young QB's....LOOSE. Put them in an up-tempo attack and give them easy reads and let them use their feet.

 

In a lot of respects creating a pocket passer is very much about taking the athlete out of these guys. What's the difference if they tear up a knee and never make it or flame out like JP Losman? Let them play and have re-inforcements at the ready.

Marrone did the exact opposite of this. In retrospect, it was a terrible decision and amounted to genuinely bad tactics.

[The Big Cat]

ill more or less agree and appreciate the thoughtful post on his mechanics -

 

and it buys you time to work with them on some of the other things. embrace what they do well instead of forcing what they struggle at and maybe you get the confidence and time to iron out some of the challenges they face.

 

Sounds like a ringing endorsement for Kyle Shanny

[BuffaninATL]

 

That's good on you, Paul -- I forgot about that. Makes sense, repaying that kindness...

I enjoy your posts without reservation eball , but "good on you" is that nouveau 2014 little catchphrase that I wish would go away....))

[Juice_32]

It's amazing how quickly fans give up on young players.

 

 

This all the way. Especially with what has come to light about Marrone. EJ fits the mold of a player killed by coaching. Let's see what the kid has got.

[NoSaint]

 

Sounds like a ringing endorsement for Kyle Shanny

i wouldnt HATE it, but dont love the father son pair as i dont know they are a fully functional unit together (can dad hold son accountable to the point of firing if needed?). ive been pretty open in liking how bevell handled wilson

[In space no one can hear]

LOL

In the comment section under Carucci's article some one posted :

 

 

• AGD • an hour ago

  If Whaley is pitching Manuel to prospective coaches, the Bills will probably have to interview more than 19 people.

Edited January 6, 2015 by In space no one can hear

[The Big Cat]

i wouldnt HATE it, but dont love the father son pair as i dont know they are a fully functional unit together (can dad hold son accountable to the point of firing if needed?). ive been pretty open in liking how bevell handled wilson

 

LaConfora hears otherwise:

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469812207955968

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469976071036933

[Charles Romes]

For all EJs weaknesses he has some unusual strengths the prior regime never attempted to leverage. Man can push it down the field in an instant even when on the run or off balance.

[NoSaint]

 

LaConfora hears otherwise:

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469812207955968

 

https://twitter.com/JasonLaCanfora/status/552469976071036933

interesting. ill admit, i havent followed KS enough to have a strong opinion of him as a HC, and really only moderately educated on his OC credentials

[YoloinOhio]

I think Greg Roman, who had a similar type of QB in SF with Kap, is someone with knowledge of how to approach EJ's development.

 

Things changed in 2014 for Kap - reportedly the Niners changed the offense and Harbaugh was behind that, with Roman not in a position to override.

Jmo... Not an overall endorsement of Roman but interesting nonetheless.

Edited January 6, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[The Big Cat]

I think Greg Roman, who had a similar type of QB in SF with Kap, is someone with knowledge of how to approach EJ's development.

 

Things changed in 2014 for Kap - reportedly the Niners changed the offense and Harbaugh was behind that, with Roman not in a position to override.

 

Talked to two Niners fans today who can't stand the guy:

 

"Can't stand Greg roman. He'd be a disaster hire. Unless he's akin to mike McCarthy who was our oc in 2-14 season before becoming HC of Green Bay."

 

"Our RT follows and retweets an account named '@firegregroman'"

Edited January 6, 2015 by The Big Cat

[YoloinOhio]

 

Talked to two Niners fans today who can't stand the guy.

yes I know the fans hate him

[Kelly the Dog]

For all EJs weaknesses he has some unusual strengths the prior regime never attempted to leverage. Man can push it down the field in an instant even when on the run or off balance.

They also made an understandable but ultimately dumb decision in the off season to tell him not to run. That hurt him in a lot of ways. Yes, he got injured three different times in his rookie season, but he was never injury prone before, and you could see what happened each time. If he was going to be a good QB in this league he had to be able to run, even though he was never a "running QB" per se even in college. By drilling it into him not to run, and all but eliminating the zone read kind of plays where he is a threat to run, and totally limiting his rollouts where he can easier avoid the rush, it hurt his progress.

 

In retrospect it was a mistake, like a lot of others. Again, at first blush it is understandable because of the injuries. But this isn't RGIII we're talking about. He's not slender or frail. And if he turned out to be, he's going to be out of the league in a year anyway. They should have just coached him to be a little smarter, but still be yourself.

[The Big Cat]

interesting. ill admit, i havent followed KS enough to have a strong opinion of him as a HC, and really only moderately educated on his OC credentials

 

My impression has been that he's done well engineering a scheme to milk the most out of what little talent their is.

 

Can't ignore Jordan Cameron coming available...

[PS 56]

Goddammit Whaley. Don't let EJ friggin Manuel be your downfall.

Exactly. Don't tie your cry to one pony...

[eball]

I enjoy your posts without reservation eball , but "good on you" is that nouveau 2014 little catchphrase that I wish would go away....))

 

LOL -- really? I have an Irish friend who says it all the time...rubbed off on me I guess. I shall summarily dismiss it!

[Captain Hindsight]

It is 100% the Bills best interest that EJ develops.

 

If he does, they can upgrade the roster more and more and build around him. Likely his last shot tho

[Kelly the Dog]

Exactly. Don't tie your cry to one pony...

There is nothing in that idea or story that says he is tied to one pony whatsoever. Nor in his actions as a GM.

[FLFan]

Marrone did the exact opposite of this. In retrospect, it was a terrible decision and amounted to genuinely bad tactics.

I agree and he is not the only one. See Shanahan and now Gruden in DC with RGIII, and Harbaugh with Kaepernick. It was always going to be a tough transition with these guys and you cannot just turn on a switch and say "OK, now you are something else". Very bad coaching in my opinion. I don't know if EJ will ever fulfill his promise, but I would like to see him have a fighting chance with a coach who will play to his strengths. RGIII badly needs a change of venue for this reason. He has been ruined in DC.

 

Marrone seemingly had no clue how to play to his player's strengths on Offense - EJ, Spiller, Watkins, the OL, Mike Williams, etc. - the list is very long.