This EJ Scouting Report Proven Deadly Accurate So Far

[DC Tom]

For the EJ haters: y'all are lucky Jimbo started in 1986 and not 1983, is all I'm gonna say.

 

And had two years of "post-graduate" work with the Gamblers.

[eball]

Did they really "take a crap on him"?

 

I'm glad were taking a shot with him but that he was a 4 year starter at a major program and is still a project qb is, I think, a fair worry.

 

DCTom spoke about reps potentially being the answer - what I think you have to wonder is has he already gotten a good portion of those reps where you would see the strong incremental progress resulting from each week. Normally the discussion on a 4 year starter is that you know what your getting to a large degree.

 

I think more than anything we are hoping to match him to a system, and coach where the light switch can be flipped. This will be a telling year for EJ and marrone.

 

He was? Backed up Ponder his freshman and sophomore seasons, if I recall. Only two years as "the man."

[NoSaint]

 

 

He was? Backed up Ponder his freshman and sophomore seasons, if I recall. Only two years as "the man."

 

Double checking, I had thought he spent more time on the field those two years and the reports comments on his large volume of passes skewed me harder that way. Add on the 4-0 in bowl games.... Didn't realize quite how short his windows were those two years. You are far more right then I was on this one.

[K-9]

And had two years of "post-graduate" work with the Gamblers.

 

Under the tutelage of a GREAT OC in Mouse Davis. Kelly learned how to read pro defenses while in Houston. Best two years he ever spent. He was as pro ready his rookie year as any QB this side of Marino. And STILL he struggled, even mightily at times, his first season.

 

And even as great as Kelly was, there were STILL some fans calling for Reich. Proving once again that the most popular player on a pro football team is the backup QB.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[eball]

Double checking, I had thought he spent more time on the field those two years and the reports comments on his large volume of passes skewed me harder that way. Add on the 4-0 in bowl games.... Didn't realize quite how short his windows were those two years. You are far more right then I was on this one.

 

No worries...Ponder's propensity for injury put EJ on the field in some big moments those first two years.

[John from Riverside]

I know that the EJ thing is getting overanalyzed to death......there are some things that simply has not changed.......

 

- He was a project coming out of college with HUGE upside. There has been wide speculation (which I agree with) that EJ was not supposed to start last year and that is why we brought in Kolb......a more then capable starter when healthy and things just fell apart forcing EJ into action

 

- He got hurt last season and it hurt his development

 

Until EJ has a full season of actual games under his belt we cannot make any kind of determination one way or another

 

I would also add.....given EJ's physical attributes...coming from a major college program.....and winning percentage in bowl games in college he WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE TO US...in a trade down had he not had some warts coming out of college.......

 

We drafted a develpmental QB with huge upside

[Kellyto83TD]

wow. Very well written.

 

I really hope a lot of this isnt true. But some is definitely accurate, such as:

 

"Manuel also struggles to throw with anticipation. The next time he bangs the post route before the receiver breaks open will be the first. He is very much a rudimentary "see it, throw it" player. That doesn't work well in the NFL. In the league, certain routes demand that the ball comes out before the receiver is open or out of his break."

 

Ugh.

 

And he is still that even in THIS camp. I doubt this kid will ever make it in the NFL. Too Bad Buddy Nix was still calling the draft then.

[Wayne Cubed]

Just got done reading the 49ers forum and a thread that was started before Colin Kaepernick's sophomore season and it is almost identical to what goes on here. Some people were saying he would become a Brian Brohm, haha. Just funny that all fans are the same.

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

 

And had two years of "post-graduate" work with the Gamblers.

Exactly.

 

Gets it.

[T master]

If Kolbcussion didn't get hurt he would have sat a few weeks but hindsight is 20/20

 

Too if we would have kept Fitz we could have a t least got a teacher for EJ & got something out of the $59 mill that they gave him .

 

After reading the article it sounds as though there was as much exhaustive research done on a future QB as there was in the HCing search . But i hope the HC is better than the QB pick & has the onions to realize when they made a mistake if EJ shows bad & moves forward .

 

If all else fails they can call JP he's not working ...

[Augie]

I love EJ's measurables and the intangibles like character and work ethic. I REALLY want him to be "the guy". I know he's going to work hard and give it everything he's got. I know they say his accuracy issues are due to his mechanics breaking down. This may sound strange (OK, very strange), but in a way he seems TOO mechanical and seems to lack that innate sense of anticipation and athleticism the great ones have. When the pressure is on, Rogers and Brees and the others find a way to get the ball to the right guy, usually in stride. I don't want to over simplify it, but we're talking about throwing a ball accurately. That just comes naturally to some people and it's harder for others. When you're about to get buried by a 320 lb D lineman and perfect mechanics are no longer an option, does your QB have that natural ability to find a way to make something positive happen? I hope he learns that, because last year there were some real head scratchers where balls bounced to the guy on a bubble screen. How does that happen? Is that mechanics? It seems to be a simple pivot and throw. How does that break down so badly?

 

With all that said, I'm hoping for and expecting to see a big improvement this year. I love the guy and he's got huge potential. Rookie QB's are exactly that... Rookie QB's.

[3rdand12]

Too if we would have kept Fitz we could have a t least got a teacher for EJ & got something out of the $59 mill that they gave him .

 

After reading the article it sounds as though there was as much exhaustive research done on a future QB as there was in the HCing search . But i hope the HC is better than the QB pick & has the onions to realize when they made a mistake if EJ shows bad & moves forward .

 

If all else fails they can call JP he's not working ...

I think that was an option. But Fitz had other ideas .

The Kolb thing was terrible luck. We knew he was injury prone but WOW. If he could've played even a couple games then sat ,he would have been a fine mentor too i would guess

[Best Player Available]

I think that was an option. But Fitz had other ideas .

 

Nix getting catfished may have had something to do about that. He was less than flattering to the very guy he handed the keys too.

[thewildrabbit]

It certainly didn't help EJ to not have a QB coach last season, or a senior NFL offensive assistant to help with the offense. Shoot, EJ didn't even have a veteran journeyman backup QB to lean on for advice his first NFL season.

 

This kid has everything going for him except the actual playing experience, and he obviously needs to learn as he goes. The problem IMO is with the offense he was in wasn't very well suited for a rookie to properly develop in. Far, far to many 3rd downs and long because the run game failed to make yards. Then the hurry up and punt offense the Bills ran under Hackett put EJ under the gun way more then it should have.

 

Then the O line stunk it up in many games last year, and they were particularly bad in some road games. Losing Cordy Glenn for training camp is very disconcerting, and hopefully he returns before the season starts. All I can do is hope that the offense can pull it all together this season, coaching, line, WR's, and then maybe EJ will have a chance to develop properly.

[3rdand12]

It certainly didn't help EJ to not have a QB coach last season, or a senior NFL offensive assistant to help with the offense. Shoot, EJ didn't even have a veteran journeyman backup QB to lean on for advice his first NFL season.

 

This kid has everything going for him except the actual playing experience, and he obviously needs to learn as he goes. The problem IMO is with the offense he was in wasn't very well suited for a rookie to properly develop in. Far, far to many 3rd downs and long because the run game failed to make yards. Then the hurry up and punt offense the Bills ran under Hackett put EJ under the gun way more then it should have.

 

Then the O line stunk it up in many games last year, and they were particularly bad in some road games. Losing Cordy Glenn for training camp is very disconcerting, and hopefully he returns before the season starts. All I can do is hope that the offense can pull it all together this season, coaching, line, WR's, and then maybe EJ will have a chance to develop properly.

Well I suppose the Bills thought they had it covered. Kolb as the mentor and cushion. Hackett ws going to coach him up .

But then Boom. No mentor. And Boom Hackett had to coach up 3 QBs.

As bad as the Offense is looking right now. I do expect that Marrone is totally focused on that whilst letting Jim S handle the D .

They know the level of pressure to get this train on the right tracks.

Are they up to the task ?

[The Wiz]

Too if we would have kept Fitz we could have a t least got a teacher for EJ & got something out of the $59 mill that they gave him .

 

After reading the article it sounds as though there was as much exhaustive research done on a future QB as there was in the HCing search . But i hope the HC is better than the QB pick & has the onions to realize when they made a mistake if EJ shows bad & moves forward .

 

If all else fails they can call JP he's not working ...

I know you're joking but the defense would play the exact opposite of what they did for fitz. Only play 15 yards deep since he couldn't complete a short/mid yardage pass to save his career.

[maddenboy]

It's interesting to go back and look at the following pre-draft scouting report on E.J. Manuel written by two reporters who cover Florida State. Many, if not all of their concerns about EJ have come to fruition with the Bills. Bear in mind this piece was written by a couple of guys that like and cover FSU football,watched every snap multiple times and respect Manuel as a person and player... they are not, as much as I hate the term, "EJ haters" The link to the report follows. Enjoy.

 

http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state

 

^^ Just wanted to have the original link (to the article) available to those who just scrolled to the end of this post/string.

 

It is a fair and even-handed analysis of EJ. Some of it will sound familiar. All of it will give us things to look for in his development.

Edited July 28, 2014 by maddenboy

[White Linen]

We needed a QB we traded back and drafted EJ and imo, he was the guy to take that year, and I would have felt the same in this years class. If the stars align and you have the number one pick and a QB with little risk is there, how lucky you are (pun intended).

 

I'm glad we have EJ and I'm going to say something that's going to stir some things up with the more proficient "football" posters. I think praising articles like the OP linked are by and large idiotic. "When EJ's thinking footwork, mechanics go all to hell" - how the hell do you know Bud Elliot? Did you ask EJ, "hey on the errand throw were you concentrating on footwork? I thought so because that's when I notice your mechanics go to hell." Get out of here with all your conjecture.

 

Footwork is such an overrated thing especially when you highlight it trying to diminish his size, leadership, work ethic, studies the game, dedicated, very low off the field risk.

 

The guy then says "While I do not know EJ on a personal level", but I do know (since I'm a mind reader) "It is also my opinion that EJ is the type of person who wants to succeed and please his coaches to the point that he internalizes and personalizes criticism that is meant to be situational and related to his play, not his worth as a person."

 

Don't fall for this fellow Bills fans - this article is a farce and EJ hasn't played enough to use this as a resource. This guy is somewhere around 29 years old and isn't some seasoned respected source for scouting. Stop believing more in Bud Elliiot than you do EJ Manuel.

[Bob Malooga]

A big factor in EJ's success or lack thereof as a pro will be the circumstances around him, the ability of the coaching staff to fit their coaching style to him, and EJ's ability to overcome a couple of critical mental blocks he seems to have developed.

 

This is the most important thing, and what this year is all about...

 

1. The circumstances around EJ have improved, which should lead to him improving.

2. The coaching staff has improved with the addition of a QB-coach...hopefully Hackett's abilities can improve, which in turn, helps EJ improve.

3. Can EJ get mentally stronger and quickly forget a fumble or INT? If the circumstances and coaching has improved, leading to EJ improving...then his mental toughness/confidence should improve.

 

This is what everything is all about...every move they made, everything they have said...this is what this season for EJ and the Bills will be all about.

 

Can he do it? Can he take that next step? Everything is in place for him to do it, it's all on his shoulders now.

 

EDIT: Because of all of this, taking EJ in the mid-first-round, trading up for Watkins,(etc)...this season is the most important season for this organization since 1999.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Bob Malooga

[Buffalo Barbarian]

It's interesting to go back and look at the following pre-draft scouting report on E.J. Manuel written by two reporters who cover Florida State. Many, if not all of their concerns about EJ have come to fruition with the Bills. Bear in mind this piece was written by a couple of guys that like and cover FSU football,watched every snap multiple times and respect Manuel as a person and player... they are not, as much as I hate the term, "EJ haters" The link to the report follows. Enjoy.

 

http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state

 

This quote from the article sums up everything I thought/think about EJ.

 

"EJ has demonstrated high levels of proficiency at times. He has also displayed levels of inconsistency at even the fundamental aspects of quarterback play that raise serious questions about his ultimate ceiling as a QB. The frustrating part of these inconsistencies is that they are so very inconsistent and appear seemingly at random. For a coach trying to address these issues it must feel like a game of whack-a-mole; as soon as you resolve one deficiency, another that you thought you had fixed reappears. This suggests a quarterback who has not sufficiently mastered the fundamental aspects of the position to the point that they happen automatically."

[stowellez]

That was a good article with some interesting insight I thought. I had to laugh when they both talked about EJ using his legs to be that "dual threat" QB. Shot to the knee anyone? I'd rather have EJ sit in the pocket and run simply to avoid pressure than be used in read option. Of course he was injured running from pressure wasn't he?

In any event, some of the article is spot on but there was a ton of conjecture and vaguery about leadership and psyche. The closest thing they had to fact about EJ's play, then and now, was his inconsistency. But you don't need to be Nostradamus to predict inconsistency in a rookie QB.

In my novice opinion EJ is capable of doing enough to not lose us games and allow the rest of the talent around him shine. And if not...what else is new?!? In all sincerity, I love being a Bills fan!

[bowery4]

We needed a QB we traded back and drafted EJ and imo, he was the guy to take that year, and I would have felt the same in this years class. If the stars align and you have the number one pick and a QB with little risk is there, how lucky you are (pun intended).

 

I'm glad we have EJ and I'm going to say something that's going to stir some things up with the more proficient "football" posters. I think praising articles like the OP linked are by and large idiotic. "When EJ's thinking footwork, mechanics go all to hell" - how the hell do you know Bud Elliot? Did you ask EJ, "hey on the errand throw were you concentrating on footwork? I thought so because that's when I notice your mechanics go to hell." Get out of here with all your conjecture.

 

Footwork is such an overrated thing especially when you highlight it trying to diminish his size, leadership, work ethic, studies the game, dedicated, very low off the field risk.

 

The guy then says "While I do not know EJ on a personal level", but I do know (since I'm a mind reader) "It is also my opinion that EJ is the type of person who wants to succeed and please his coaches to the point that he internalizes and personalizes criticism that is meant to be situational and related to his play, not his worth as a person."

 

Don't fall for this fellow Bills fans - this article is a farce and EJ hasn't played enough to use this as a resource. This guy is somewhere around 29 years old and isn't some seasoned respected source for scouting. Stop believing more in Bud Elliiot than you do EJ Manuel.

Exactly. This is what I meant when I said taking a crap on him. Fans not scouts, just like Buffalo Rumblings, sure they hit on some stuff but who knows what potential they are missing. Real NFL scouts thought EJ worth the risk. So did Buddy and the Dougs, I just have to have faith in that. I hope it is well placed faith.

[GG]

Exactly.

 

 

Gets it.

 

That's a silly comparison, and you know it.

[White Linen]

This quote from the article sums up everything I thought/think about EJ.

 

"EJ has demonstrated high levels of proficiency at times. He has also displayed levels of inconsistency at even the fundamental aspects of quarterback play that raise serious questions about his ultimate ceiling as a QB. The frustrating part of these inconsistencies is that they are so very inconsistent and appear seemingly at random. For a coach trying to address these issues it must feel like a game of whack-a-mole; as soon as you resolve one deficiency, another that you thought you had fixed reappears. This suggests a quarterback who has not sufficiently mastered the fundamental aspects of the position to the point that they happen automatically."

 

I get it, but all you're doing is getting duped by someone with good writing skills. He's stating the obvious and acting like he's knows how to trace it back to fundamentals, what a joke. The whack - a - mole reference is smart and it resonates, but that's with almost every college player.

 

EJ was an outstanding college QB and has 10 games under his belt - that's it!

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

 

That's a silly comparison, and you know it.

I don't. Kelly obviously had a higher pedigree coming out of college, but he had two years where he wasn't languishing on an aimless Bills team. It was to his benefit. He still didn't make the playoffs until his third season of NFL ball. Everyone who wants to believe they have the book on a much younger QB with ten games to his credit would do well to remember that the team's greatest QB played four seasons of pro ball before he took the Bills anywhere.

[BillsVet]

I get it, but all you're doing is getting duped by someone with good writing skills. He's stating the obvious and acting like he's knows how to trace it back to fundamentals, what a joke. The whack - a - mole reference is smart and it resonates, but that's with almost every college player.

 

EJ was an outstanding college QB and has 10 games under his belt - that's it!

 

Then explain why, under the same coach, FSU went from EJ's production in 2012 to Winston's in 2013 at QB. For the record, Manuel (a senior) was 263 of 387 (68%) for 3397 yards and 23 TD's versus 10 INT's. He rushed for 321 yards on 103 carries for 4 TD's.

 

Winston was, as a RS freshman, 257 for 384 (66.9%) for 4057 yards and 40 TD's versus 10 INT's. He rushed for 219 yards on 88 carries for 4 TD's.

 

Stats don't tell the whole story, but it's interesting to note the difference between a RS freshman versus a senior.

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

 

Then explain why, under the same coach, FSU went from EJ's production in 2012 to Winston's in 2013 at QB. For the record, Manuel (a senior) was 263 of 387 (68%) for 3397 yards and 23 TD's versus 10 INT's. He rushed for 321 yards on 103 carries for 4 TD's.

 

Winston was, as a RS freshman, 257 for 384 (66.9%) for 4057 yards and 40 TD's versus 10 INT's. He rushed for 219 yards on 88 carries for 4 TD's.

 

Stats don't tell the whole story, but it's interesting to note the difference between a RS freshman versus a senior.

The same coach and nothing else was different, including another year of experience for the underclassmen?

 

Winston thinks of EJ as a mentor, FWIW.

[Best Player Available]

 

The same coach and nothing else was different, including another year of experience for the underclassmen?

 

Winston thinks of EJ as a mentor, FWIW.

A Diet heavy in crab legs was the reason for his good season.

[BarleyNY]

Wow. That's is some great evaluation. Like you said, spot on. Let's hope it changes this season.

Yup. A sadly accurate appraisal.

[GG]

I don't. Kelly obviously had a higher pedigree coming out of college, but he had two years where he wasn't languishing on an aimless Bills team. It was to his benefit. He still didn't make the playoffs until his third season of NFL ball. Everyone who wants to believe they have the book on a much younger QB with ten games to his credit would do well to remember that the team's greatest QB played four seasons of pro ball before he took the Bills anywhere.

 

The analogy does not fit because Kelly was far more NFL ready. He lit up the USFL from the get go and it wasn't like he studied under Mouse Davis for years before he started looking good throwing the ball.

 

Part of Kelly's problems with the Bills was that he was too reckless, not that he was tentative. Kelly was also not surrounded by good talent on offense in his first two years here.

 

The only similarity is that both struggled in their first year, but for totally different reasons, and there weren't a lot of people questioning whether Kelly could be a star in the NFL. That's not the case for EJ.

 

And as always, these threads devolve into a black or white situation about the QB. The pro-EJ camp falls back on his lack of experience as the supporting reason, while the anti-EJ camp points to the same flaws that plagued him in college. But the truth is always in the middle. EJ was known to be a reach in 1st round who needs time to develop. But as part of that development, you should see tangible improvement in his game this year. That's why the first practice in pads was so disconcerting. It wasn't that he didn't have the chemistry with his new WRs yet. It's that he was still too tentative. Let's see what the rest of the preseason brings, because with the types of WRs he now has, there should be very little excuse for him not to lift his game.

[K-9]

The analogy does not fit because Kelly was far more NFL ready. He lit up the USFL from the get go and it wasn't like he studied under Mouse Davis for years before he started looking good throwing the ball.

 

Part of Kelly's problems with the Bills was that he was too reckless, not that he was tentative. Kelly was also not surrounded by good talent on offense in his first two years here.

 

The only similarity is that both struggled in their first year, but for totally different reasons, and there weren't a lot of people questioning whether Kelly could be a star in the NFL. That's not the case for EJ.

 

And as always, these threads devolve into a black or white situation about the QB. The pro-EJ camp falls back on his lack of experience as the supporting reason, while the anti-EJ camp points to the same flaws that plagued him in college. But the truth is always in the middle. EJ was known to be a reach in 1st round who needs time to develop. But as part of that development, you should see tangible improvement in his game this year. That's why the first practice in pads was so disconcerting. It wasn't that he didn't have the chemistry with his new WRs yet. It's that he was still too tentative. Let's see what the rest of the preseason brings, because with the types of WRs he now has, there should be very little excuse for him not to lift his game.

 

Just for the record, I'm not comparing Kelly to Manuel in any way shape or form. Merely pointed out that Kelly benefited greatly from working with Mouse Davis and learning to read defenses before he came to the NFL.

 

ALL quarterbacks need time to develop. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM. From Unitas to Manuel to Johnny Football. I think that's all anyone is trying to say. No need to make this into comparisons on any other level.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[GG]

ALL quarterbacks need time to develop.

 

They all do, but what separates the good ones from the rest is the good ones improve over that development period. The jury is still out on EJ.

[K-9]

They all do, but what separates the good ones from the rest is the good ones improve over that development period. The jury is still out on EJ.

 

Of course the jury is still out on EJ. I think he'll get his 1,000 attempts from this FO and coaching staff before he's pronounced good enough or not. That will surely rankle some who have already pronounced him a bust, but patience is key at the moment, at least from a team perspective. In the meantime, you fill in some critical surrounding pieces to give him the best opportunity to succeed. The FO seems to be addressing this important aspect. Can you imagine Kelly playing in '83 with that supporting cast? Ouch.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

Of course the jury is still out on EJ. I think he'll get his 1,000 attempts from this FO and coaching staff before he's pronounced good enough or not. That will surely rankle some who have already pronounced him a bust, but patience is key at the moment, at least from a team perspective. In the meantime, you fill in some critical surrounding pieces to give him the best opportunity to succeed. The FO seems to be addressing this important aspect. Can you imagine Kelly playing in '83 with that supporting cast? Ouch.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think what will really set the tone is what type of progress EJ shows--not just early on this season, but as the season advances as well. It's one thing to get better during the offseason by getting healthier, stronger, and working on mechanics/habits; as you know it's quite another to improve during the course of the season.

 

It's my opinion that the great ones can do both.

[RuntheDamnBall]

The analogy does not fit because Kelly was far more NFL ready. He lit up the USFL from the get go and it wasn't like he studied under Mouse Davis for years before he started looking good throwing the ball.

I agree, it serves no one to compare the two as quarterbacks. I'm comparing their situations, and the fact is that the practice that Kelly got was valuable, and the number of reps he took before becoming elite was sizable, and this franchise QB had a lot more of them under his belt than does our second year man. No one thinks EJ is or was on the same development curve, and that's why I think some posters could take a step back off the ledge until he gets more reps.

 

I want to see improvement this year and I think it's imperative. I also think we've been wowed by preseason and practice all-stars only to see them fail in the pressure situations. I just find this "he isn't looking good on day 3" stuff a tad ridiculous.

 

If he looks terrible in week 3, I'll be more concerned.

[GG]

The other progress that EJ needs to show is avoiding injuries. While we may argue whether the TJ Ward hit could have been avoided, I'm much more perplexed about his other two knee injuries, which occurred on seemingly innocent plays.

[YoloinOhio]

The other progress that EJ needs to show is avoiding injuries. While we may argue whether the TJ Ward hit could have been avoided, I'm much more perplexed about his other two knee injuries, which occurred on seemingly innocent plays.

I think it was Gipson that hit him. Ward was the one who threw confetti when he didn't get up.

[GG]

I think it was Gipson that hit him. Ward was the one who threw confetti when he didn't get up.

 

Oops, probably. I just associate Ward with borderline hits.

[YoloinOhio]

Oops, probably. I just associate Ward with borderline hits.

Yep - he took out Gronk.

[You herd it hear last]

I would like to remind everybody that the QB prior to EJ was Ryan Fitzpatrick.

 

 

Did you guys know he went to Harvard?