What is better, no guns, or more guns?

[Tiberius]

49 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Another gun case waits in the wings.

 

Allen Whitaker is a resident of Washington, D.C., who holds a handgun license. In April 2019, police stopped Whitaker, who is Black and wears dreadlocks, and his male cousin at gunpoint when they were returning from a gun range with Whitaker’s daughter and girlfriend and stopped at a gas station at which a few of the other patrons got into an altercation. Noticing that Whitaker wore an empty pistol holster on his waist, the officers handcuffed the two men. They searched the vehicle as well as Whitaker and his family, found an amount of marijuana legally permissible in the District belonging to Whitaker’s girlfriend, and seized both the marijuana and Whitaker’s gun that was stored in a lockbox in the trunk. The police eventually released Whitaker and his family without charge, but they refused to return the handgun.

 

After applying to register a new firearm, Whitaker received notice from the Metropolitan Police Department that his gun license would be revoked. D.C. law allows the MPD to determine whether a person is a “suitable” applicant to own a handgun. The notice explained that the gas-station incident, combined with Whitaker’s misdemeanor criminal history that had been evaluated in his originally approved application for a gun license, demonstrated a “propensity for violence or instability” unsuitable for a firearm owner. The Concealed Pistol Licensing Review Board denied Whitaker’s administrative appeal. Whitaker filed suit in the D.C. Court of Appeals, which dismissed the case as moot after the MPD voluntarily reinstated Whitaker’s license mid-litigation. In Whitaker v. District of Columbia Concealed Pistol Licensing Review Board, Whitaker asks the justices to review two aspects of the appeals court’s dismissal.

 

On the merits, Whitaker argues that the D.C. regulation is unconstitutionally vague. The “propensity for violence or instability” standard, Whitaker says, “confers standardless discretion on the MPD to disqualify anyone [for a gun license] based on the agency’s subjective judgment.”

 

 

I agree, and the Court should, too.

 

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/06/another-gun-case-waits-in-the-wings/

 

 

Wow!! Talk about institutional racism! The cops arrested and handcuffed this guy in front of his family because of a holster? Guns are just a disease

50 minutes ago, LeviF said:

Downtown Atlanta. 
 

Run by the lawless right? Interesting take. Wonder how many illegal guns Atlanta PD has proactively taken off the street in the last two years. 

The country has been flooded with them, ya. 

[B-Man]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Wow!! Talk about institutional racism!

 

The cops arrested and handcuffed this guy in front of his family because of a holster?

 

Guns are just a disease

 

 

Wow !

 

Illogical thinking on display.

 

It wasn't the gun's fault Tibsy.

 

Poorly written "Gun Control" laws are the disease.

 

 

[Golden*Wheels]

6 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

This is not meant to be an anti or pro gun argument....the things people will get physical for, let alone kill for....wow. Just makes you sad to be a human sometimes.

[T master]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

When you have anti-democratic rule things get worse. 2/3 of our nation is ruled by a very hostile minority, so ya, things will get worse. Why, it’s almost like it’s a plan or something 

 

Exactly that's why this guy needs to be thrown out on his ear so we do agree on something .

 

But my take is - our nation has become soft to the point of what i call P***Y's when you have the marine corp giving out mood patches & parents that do discipline meaning giving a spanking to their kids if deserved afraid to do so because they feel if seen disciplining that someone will call the authorities & have their kids taken away because of that.

 

I have had friends that because someone called and made a accusation about the parents which was a lie HRS came & literally dragged the kids out and for over a month the parents couldn't have any contact with the kids and you will probably think i'm part of the barbaric folks running the country as you said but IMHO that dad had every right o walk up & punch that SOB right in the mouth or give him a ass whooping he would never forget .

 

Sure there are those that take discipline way to far & when that is done it is abuse but when a country can't raise it's youth with out fear of having them taken away that's bad .

 

Then you have the over sensitive that if you use words like gay, or ***** or what ever they turn inside out because they are so sensitive WTH ever happened to the sticks and stones saying or considering the source this country is turned into a bunch of marshmallows  !!! 

 

For gods sake when you read a bible verse and someone considers that hate speech well kiss my round red ass if that aint soft i sure don't know what is !

 

 So to your point of this country being run by very hostile minority i beg to differ the whimps have taken over and if you have a strong opinion on anything at all these over sensitive whimps will cry until they get there way & they were probably the ones that mommy & daddy never busted their asses when they were little & only took away a toy .

 

If a lot more parents would discipline their kids i think it would be a lot more respectful place & just because you have a disagreement people wouldn't be pulling out guns and shooting first because they didn't get their way or someone didn't agree with them but that's just me right ...

 

Even this place has changed some of my text because they consider it to harsh for the more sensitive folks reading this even when trying to put it in a explanation type sentence ...

 

And again you are correct they want a world with no rules or laws only what they want in their own personal opinions to matter and nothing else .

Edited June 27, 2022 by T master

[Tiberius]

23 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Exactly that's why this guy needs to be thrown out on his ear so we do agree on something .

 

But my take is - our nation has become soft to the point of what i call P***Y's when you have the marine corp giving out mood patches & parents that do discipline meaning giving a spanking to their kids if deserved afraid to do so because they feel if seen disciplining that someone will call the authorities & have their kids taken away because of that.

 

I have had friends that because someone called and made a accusation about the parents which was a lie HRS came & literally dragged the kids out and for over a month the parents couldn't have any contact with the kids and you will probably think i'm part of the barbaric folks running the country as you said but IMHO that dad had every right o walk up & punch that SOB right in the mouth or give him a ass whooping he would never forget .

 

Sure there are those that take discipline way to far & when that is done it is abuse but when a country can't raise it's youth with out fear of having them taken away that's bad .

 

Then you have the over sensitive that if you use words like gay, or ***** or what ever they turn inside out because they are so sensitive WTH ever happened to the sticks and stones saying or considering the source this country is turned into a bunch of marshmallows  !!! 

 

For gods sake when you read a bible verse and someone considers that hate speech well kiss my round red ass if that aint soft i sure don't know what is !

 

 So to your point of this country being run by very hostile minority i beg to differ the whimps have taken over and if you have a strong opinion on anything at all these over sensitive whimps will cry until they get there way & they were probably the ones that mommy & daddy never busted their asses when they were little & only took away a toy .

 

If a lot more parents would discipline their kids i think it would be a lot more respectful place & just because you have a disagreement people wouldn't be pulling out guns and shooting first because they didn't get their way or someone didn't agree with them but that's just me right ...

 

Even this place has changed some of my text because they consider it to harsh for the more sensitive folks reading this even when trying to put it in a explanation type sentence ...

 

And again you are correct they want a world with no rules or laws only what they want in their own personal opinions to matter and nothing else .

What guy? Biden? 

 

Biden is a 10,000% improvement over the trash he replaced 

[T master]

44 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

What guy? Biden? 

 

Biden is a 10,000% improvement over the trash he replaced 

 

You bring a entirely new meaning to open mouth & insert foot !! 

 

I'm blown away on how you or anyone can look at everything that has transpired up to now compared to what it was 2 short years ago & think in any way shape or form that 1 thing is better let alone 10,000 times better that just shows me your 10,000 time more ignorant than i thought .

 

Hey if it is so good send me your credit card info i will start charging all of the prices that are over & above what they were to you seeing as you love it so much .  

 

More illegal immigrants, higher inflation, higher gas prices, higher grocery prices, name 1 thing that has gotten better i will agree we don't have to listen to Trump run his pie hole which i dig but as far as the over all of the country it is 10,000 times worse gas is now over $6.00 a gallon on average in Calli .

 

Please Please just let me know exactly what is better today not some BS question or some stupid ass clip of Trump shaking his hands or what ever other ignorant freakin thing you can come up with just a simple explanation that's it !! 

 

Just like this gal does !! 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQIL7bJ51mk

 

[B-Man]

 

 

CIVIL RIGHTS UPDATE: 

 

New Jersey Attorney General removes “justifiable need” requirement for gun carry permits.

 

 

https://www.anjrpc.org/page/NJDropsJustifiableNeed

 

 

 

[T master]

21 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Wow!! Talk about institutional racism! The cops arrested and handcuffed this guy in front of his family because of a holster? Guns are just a disease

The country has been flooded with them, ya. 

 

Wow talk about a cop that at every stop takes the chance of getting shot & not going home to his family taking the precaution of being safe until he determines what exactly is happening which any one with common sense would think .

 

But you take it as promoting institutional racism which is part of the problem ! If this story was a white guy you wouldn't say a word & there are probably stories just like this that happen but because those stories may involve whites they are never reported on because it just doesn't fit the narrative .

 

Why don't you go out & get paid $30k a yr and see what it's like to not know when ever you stop some one especially if they are in a altercation with another person in todays cop hating world & do the job those men & women do to keep you & me safe for a year then come back & tell me about it .

 

I being a family member of a person that is a police officer & have seen first hand the disrespect he & his fellow officers have to put up with daily & he being shot & had others pull weapons on them while at work and threaten them & their families will stand on the side of their & everyone else safety .

 

If that means putting someone in cuffs for a while to first determine the situation rather than consider that racism i will file that under common sense but seeing as you never use that your response does;t surprise me in the least so keep inflaming the situation .

 

Now with that being said after a review i think the man should have gotten his carry permit reinstated & his gun back seeing as he was following the law by having it locked up given the circumstances of how the insolent got started . But i do know the gov't is using marajiuana as a excuse total peoples guns .

[Tiberius]

Just now, T master said:

 

Wow talk about a cop that at every stop takes the chance of getting shot & not going home to his family taking the precaution of being safe until he determines what exactly is happening which any one with common sense would think . 

Good point! These cops are terrified of guns. No doubt, when you flood the country with murder weapons the cops feel they might get shot. Look at the cops in the Texas school shooting, they just let the kids get murdered, they were not going to get hurt! 

[T master]

13 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Good point! These cops are terrified of guns. No doubt, when you flood the country with murder weapons the cops feel they might get shot. Look at the cops in the Texas school shooting, they just let the kids get murdered, they were not going to get hurt! 

 

That's because they did not in any way do their jobs & all that stood in wait should be fired immediately cops with the trains of a active shooter are taught to run toward the shooter & stop them at all cost to save lives even if it means losing theirs especially where children are involved .

 

After that the person in my family which is ex military said that any & all training that they had is to immediately go toward the gun fire & stop the perp especially in a instance with children those cops in Uvalde were chicken s**ts & didn't do their jobs .

 

The feds that showed up after 45 minutes of 911 calls from a child inside did what they other cops should have done when they showed up on the scene so it wasn't that those cops were scared it was that they were people that should have never been allowed to be cops because they don't have what it takes to be a police officer .

 

And all should be held accountable for their lack of actions because there is no telling how many lives would have been saved if they would have done the job that they were hired to do & as the one cop said he had just finished active shooter training then blatantly disregard all he had learned .

Edited June 28, 2022 by T master

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, T master said:

 

That's because they did not in any way do their jobs & all that stood in wait should be fired immediately cops with the trains of a active shooter are taught to run toward the shooter & stop them at all cost to save lives even if it means losing theirs especially where children are involved .

 

After that the person in my family which is ex military said that any & all training that they had is to immediately go toward the gun fire & stop the perp especially in a instance with children those cops in Uvalde were chicken s**ts & didn't do their jobs .

 

The feds that showed up after 45 minutes of 911 calls from a child inside did what they other cops should have done when they showed up on the scene so it wasn't that those cops were scared it was that they were people that should have never been allowed to be cops because they don't have what it takes to be a police officer .

 

And all should be held accountable for their lack of actions because there is no telling how many lives would have been saved if they would have done the job that they were hired to do & as the one cop said he had just finished active shooter training then blatantly disregard all he had learned .

They were scared of getting hurt 

[T master]

Just now, Tiberius said:

They were scared of getting hurt 

 

BS if that be the case they were less than men in that situation with children knowing that children had been killed knowing that multiple 911 calls from inside the building had been made pleading for someone to come in a stop the shooter .

 

They were a bunch of p***ies and not worthy of being called police officers if you not willing to do the job then don't hire on just for a pension !

 

Any cop or ex military that i have talked to have said as much & said none of them deserved to wear the badge of a police office of which they served  ! 

[B-Man]

Hmmmmmm.

 

 

 

[Golden*Wheels]

Every person exposed should sue the state in a class action suit. Deliberate or not (I am fairly sure it was deliberate) there needs to be accountability for government misuse of citizens' data.

 

Don't just fire some intern, cash penalties.

[Tiberius]

We all have to pay for this insane flooding on our nation with murder weapons 

 

 

[Bob in Mich]

I didn’t know that type of ‘mass shooting’ insurance even existed.  The idea of thinking like an insurance company though might be helpful in the general debate.

 

Similar to auto liability insurers, what concerns would a gun liability insurer have in agreeing to insure a gun owner (if that were a requirement)?  Many of the same considerations as the auto insurer I would guess.  

 

How old is the person?  They would likely have higher rates for the very young and the very old.  Past history with the legal system would affect rates.  Training and some proficiency testing should impact insurability and rates too.  Seems if you have to prove your vision is good enough to drive, proving you can see well enough to shoot a gun might be a consideration on insurability.  Anyway, I am sure there are others

 

Without getting into the weeds of whether actual gun insurance should be required, I think looking at the issue  from the perspective of an insurer can help highlight the areas possible legislation could focus on.  If an insurer would not cover a person or only have coverage for an individual at astronomical rates, our laws should force a more intense screening of those individuals too

Edited June 29, 2022 by Bob in Mich

[aristocrat]

 

[716er]

[Tiberius]

Gun man ruins a 4th of July parade. 

[Coach Tuesday]

That’s ok guys we’re getting so close to solving mental illness!

[Tiberius]

24 victims, JFC 

 

This is sad and pathetic 

[B-Man]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

6 dead, 24 wounded as it stands now.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-reported-4th-july-parade-chicago-suburb-highland/story?id=86186529

 

 

We should wait and see what other information comes out before "using" it.

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

I'll be shocked if they don't find out who this guy was real soon. He left his gun, that's traceable. And I'm sure cameras captured him at some point in an urban area like that 

[Tiberius]

 

[BillStime]

🎯

 

 

[BillStime]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

OMG 

 

 

[Orlando Tim]

53 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

OMG 

 

 

Poor speaker but she clearly means she will shoot and kill anyone who threatened her grandkids lives. Would you shoot someone to protect your children?

[Big Blitz]

*media cheers*

 

 

Gun applicants in NY will have to hand over social accounts

 

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) - As missed warning signs pile up in investigations of mass killings, New York state is rolling out a novel strategy to screen applicants for gun permits. People seeking to carry concealed handguns will be required to hand over their social media accounts for a review of their "character and conduct."

 

https://apnews.com/article/technology-new-york-social-media-gun-politics-bd1fba804dfa2adb347c74bb6e52d2b0

 

 

 

 

We told you social credit scores were coming.  

 

 

 

Never vote Democrat.  Ever.  

[ComradeKayAdams]

APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE for briefly hijacking the gun thread! I’m replying to posts that I forgot to address weeks ago:

 

On 6/17/2022 at 5:50 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

Your opening comment seems defensive and I am curious what they love about our country? They like to criticize the US because they are pathetically ignorant of how the rest of the world works and the implication of their policies if ever enacted. One thing I find appalling from them is all of the topics that really matter to them,not me, they have no idea about any of it. I will point out liberals and progressives are not the same thing in my description.

 

1. Progressives love this country because it’s their home. It’s no more complicated than that. Calling people “America haters” if they disagree with your political opinions is childish and unproductive. Having said that, I can answer your question on a personal level: I like our popular culture, the melting pot nature of our demographics, our spirit of innovation and creativity, the geography, our Bill of Rights, and our federal system of checks and balances.

 

2. Progressives are ignorant on how the rest of the world works?? Progressive policies aren’t already implemented elsewhere?? Universal health care? Federally mandated living wages? Universal pre-k? Progressive tax codes? Community-owned grocery stores? Swiss non-interventionism? German labor movement? French energy infrastructure? Housing for the homeless in Finland? Drug war strategies in Portugal? Legal prostitution in the Netherlands? Social democracies and mixed economies in practically every major industrialized country in the Western Hemisphere??!!

 

3. While you seem quite confident in your own grasp of political issues, I vaguely recall a conversation of ours in the global warming thread last summer. I backed you into a debate corner where you admitted that you believe in a vast global conspiracy, involving everyone from climate scientists to the U.S. Navy, in which all the climate data is fabricated. Is my recollection correct? How did you think that conversation went for you?? How about replying to my post on the inflation topic (thread: “How much did you pay for gas and groceries today?,” top of page 15, June 10)? Share with the forum what you know on perhaps the most pressing political topic in the news these days.

 

4. Good for you for acknowledging the distinction between liberals and progressives! Most Americans don’t.

 

On 6/18/2022 at 1:34 PM, Buffarukus said:

i think your confusing classical liberalism with corporate democrat cronyism. I'm not sure how MLK ( content of character ) or looking at roots of economic problems that would solve issues long term by addressing the entities involved but also require people to invest in self responsibility are simplistic or outdated in the 21st century? i sure hope not. at some point progressives are going to run out of people that are at fault for the problems in this world.

 

progressive solutions are the ones that sound simplistic to me. they do little to address the longterm damage that accumulates after the self gratification "virtue signaling" is over. you cant "tax the rich" without knowing how that doesnt become higher prices and effects the poor or plants just relocating taking jobs. you cant implement green deals with zero infrastructure and high cost again, crushing the poor. you cant give free college without deterioration of degrees obtained. you cant give free healthcare when most budgets are blown out and can barely pay basic medicare. open boarders! when people are struggling for food housing and work lets let millions more compete! a mexican born republican just won south texas county so a veiled racism on something like boarder security must be spreading to people that progressives are protecting..or maybe looking out for american citizens first and foremost is not what some make it out to be at all and the media has been gaslighting people on a variety of topics. 

 

now these are obviously quick observations but i don't think i am unfair on the basic generalization of what progressives are essentially saying. give a demand..well is it done yet!? worker rights,  better pay, equality, improving support programs that help people get on their feet are all things traditional liberals have always supported. progressives are just the extreme version that is more ideological then principle based 

 

when it comes to the laissez-faire capitalism of the right i agree as corporations are just as dangerous as any gov if left unchecked but i also see a major contradiction. the government is the most corrupt corporation in the world. so lets demand solutions that integrate it into MORE aspects of our lives? i will never understand where this complete trust in government was earned. you list many reasons and wars it should not be. you also neglect something very important with (post covid economy). progressives made this problem. they applauded gov lockdowns and authoritarianism under the idea "lives over economics" " stay home save a life" this cont looong after data was clear that (laissez-faire) showed no indication of higher death rates. the right, against immense political, cultural, media pressure did what was best to avoid economic destruction. all while progressives and dems activley supported the destruction of small buisnesses, firing of workers under false vax promises and contributed to inflation with calls to pay everyone to produce nothing. same with censorship of the facts about the pandemic. fighting against these things are liberal ideas. freedom of choice. free from gov oppression, adhering to free speech. 

 

so the lives progressives were so concerned about are left in financial ruin right now. the struggling people they claim to fight so hard for are the same ones most effected by these decisions now. now a shrug and "it was covid nothing could be done" as if their were no other choices that they were villianizing or info they were busy erasing. they are ignoring the role they were a big part in when it came to prolonging the damage. so future funding for new social programs or something like medicare for all...good luck! the fed is literally playing with complete economic collapse at this point....not that they care.  how is it progressives should be entrusted with ANY political power in the future after this is beyond me. there need to be consequences! like you said.

 

you need to take a objective look at the outcome of society that followed progressive ideology the last few years. here we are. mix that with the progressive reliance on violence (antifa) (pro life medical centers getting bombed) ( supreme justice attempted murder) (police, ice attacks) (public events that have people they don't agree with bomb threats and destruction over the years) (comedians can't even tell jokes) how can peaceful people even identify with it? but this is the future of the dnc?

 

i only asked your opinion, instead i am writing another novel to convince you. 😅 is my dangerous misinformation campaign warping your mind? lol. sorry. in summary i hope progressives such as yourself (you seem relatively moderate) realize liberalism has many of the same goals but without the all the nonsense. i think progressives, if staying on the current coarse and not expelling the radical portion quickly, will implode. its why the red wave is predicted and polls are in the trash for dems. dems stance on police, energy, identity politics, open boarders are all based on progressive ideas and all contributing to the current  disaster we have to dig out of. 

 

This is a lot of material here…I’ll tackle as much as I can before my bedtime!

 

1. Definitions: I’ve been careful to use “classical liberalism” as a synonym for modern libertarianism and for advocacy of strict Constitutional constructionism. I don’t think I’ve been conflating classical liberalism with crony capitalism? The over-the-top extreme wealth disparities and wealth suppression naturally generated by economic libertarianism, however, do tend to corrode democracies so that they devolve into corporate oligarchies like the one in which we’re currently living. Classical liberalism always seems to lead to great social instability. Never mind modern (i.e. post-Age of Enlightenment/Industrial Revolution era) European history; the most prominent demonstration of this in American history was the economic volatility and strife of the Gilded Age that fueled Debs and the original American progressive movement of the early 1900’s.

 

2. Trust in Government: Classical liberals tend to play this game where they insist that government is hopelessly inefficient and incompetent, and then they proceed to elect politicians who do everything in their power to undermine said government services, thereby reinforcing their original point. Government is a necessity for a few vital goods and services: things like national defense, law and order, and firefighting. Progressives would add aspects of health care, education, and housing along with various market failure safeguards for labor exploitation and pollution and monopoly/oligopoly effects. Socialists would add at least a few more services, if not many more. I would hope everyone wants to work to keep government as streamlined and efficacious as possible with the minimum necessary safeguards, but I also don’t want to throw babies out with their bathwaters. As you probably figured, I’m not a fan of debates on negative rights vs. positive rights because it’s a totally meaningless distinction to me.

 

3. Perceived Failures of Progressivism: I’ve noticed how many Americans tend to blame progressives for government failures that are actually neoliberal in nature, not progressive...namely the economic ones. Remember how I argued that progressives don’t have much political power in the United States? We couldn’t even get a completely watered-down Build Back Better Act passed! The Biden administration has been neoliberal to the core since day one. But while I think our ideas are super awesome for the most part, some admittedly need to go back to the drawing board and/or need work on the messaging. I’ve already conceded some of the law-and-order issues to you. I won’t concede border control and economic protectionism to you because true progressivism isn’t about open borders and globalism; it’s about humane treatment of illegal immigrants and pro-worker policies. I can partly concede the “Cancel Student Debt” movement that you raised because that solution is WAY too simplistic. It ends up being unfair to many Americans who already paid off their college debt or who didn’t go to college, and it doesn’t address the root problems behind exploding college costs. From the perspective of macroeconomic growth, however, Millenial/Gen Z post-secondary educational debt is a gigantic drag on our economy.

 

4. Contemporary Failures of Classical Liberalism: I could go on and on about its flaws when it comes to solving modern macroeconomic problems, everything from fiscal policy to monetary policy. But in the interest of my waning time before bed, I’ll limit my complaining to the big one that is government spending (or rather, lack thereof) in the face of recessions. Let’s take the looming post-COVID recession as a case example. We know during the pandemic that the professional/managerial class (PMC) got wealthier and the working class got poorer. These are objective economic facts, colloquially known as the “Kay-shaped” recovery. Nevertheless, those who identify as classical liberals still argue that the rich are paying too much in taxes right now and the American social safety net is way too generous. The silliest ones even advocate for a flat tax. All of them would rather cool off inflation by having the Fed raise interest rates before ever entertaining the notion of raising taxes on the PMC. But raising interest rates will hit the working class disproportionately hard in the form of unemployment. The U.S. has a 70% consumer spending-based economy, but the very sizable working class won’t have the money to jumpstart it. And we know from recent history (going back to Reagan) that these prospective post-COVID tax cuts for the rich will just be redirected right into company stock buybacks and dividends, not investments in DOMESTIC jobs.

 

5. Future of Progressivism: There’s an ongoing civil war within the progressive movement between the social justice warrior coterie and the economic populist one. I think American progressivism has a bright future as long as the economic populists lead the conversations. The movement is doing extremely well with the under-40 crowd (demography is destiny, as they say!), but admittedly has stalled with Latinos and the male working class since 2016. My people (social democrats and greenies, plus any socialists and commies) need to collaborate and consolidate power like the lefties did in France recently under Jean-Luc Melenchon. I can see a nice path being paved forward for progressives to take over the Democratic Party and the country by the end of this decade. The path pavers here would be the rank incompetency of the Biden administration, the Manchin/Sinema legislative blockade, the Roberts court’s illegitimacy in the public’s eyes (from Citizens United v. FEC back in 2010 all the way to the upcoming Moore v. Harper case), and the massive social catalyst that is the Dobbs reversal of Roe and Casey.

 

EDIT: Corrected a few obvious spelling/grammar errors.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Delete_Account

[Orlando Tim]

9 hours ago, Delete_Account said:

APOLOGIES TO EVERYONE for briefly hijacking the gun thread! I’m replying to posts that I forgot to address weeks ago:

 

 

1. Progressives love this country because it’s their home. It’s no more complicated than that. Calling people “America haters” if they disagree with your political opinions is childish and unproductive. Having said that, I can answer your question on a personal level: I like our popular culture, the melting pot nature of our demographics, our spirit of innovation and creativity, the geography, our Bill of Rights, and our federal system of checks and balances.

 

2. Progressives are ignorant on how the rest of the world works?? Progressive policies aren’t already implemented elsewhere?? Universal health care? Federally mandated living wages? Universal pre-k? Progressive tax codes? Community-owned grocery stores? Swiss non-interventionism? German labor movement? French energy infrastructure? Housing for the homeless in Finland? Drug war strategies in Portugal? Legal prostitution in the Netherlands? Social democracies and mixed economies in practically every major industrialized country in the Western Hemisphere??!!

 

3. While you seem quite confident in your own grasp of political issues, I vaguely recall a conversation of ours in the global warming thread last summer. I backed you into a debate corner where you admitted that you believe in a vast global conspiracy, involving everyone from climate scientists to the U.S. Navy, in which all the climate data is fabricated. Is my recollection correct? How did you think that conversation went for you?? How about replying to my post on the inflation topic (thread: “How much did you pay for gas and groceries today?,” top of page 15, June 10)? Share with the forum what you know on perhaps the most pressing political topic in the news these days.

 

4. Good for you for acknowledging the distinction between liberals and progressives! Most Americans don’t.

 

 

This is a lot of material here…I’ll tackle as much as I can before my bedtime!

 

1. Definitions: I’ve been careful to use “classical liberalism” as a synonym for modern libertarianism and for advocacy of strict Constitutional constructionism. I don’t think I’ve been conflating classical liberalism with crony capitalism? The over-the-top extreme wealth disparities and wealth suppression naturally generated by economic libertarianism, however, do tend to corrode democracies so that they devolve into corporate oligarchies like the one in which we’re currently living. Classical liberalism always seems to lead to great social instability. Never mind modern (i.e. post-Age of Enlightenment/Industrial Revolution era) European history; the most prominent demonstration of this in American history was the economic volatility and strife of the Gilded Age that fueled Debs and the original American progressive movement of the early 1900’s.

 

2. Trust in Government: Classical liberals tend to play this game where they insist that government is hopelessly inefficient and incompetent, and then they proceed to elect politicians who do everything in their power to undermine said government services, thereby reinforcing their original point. Government is a necessity for a few vital goods and services: things like national defense, law and order, and firefighting. Progressives would add aspects of health care, education, and housing along with various market failure safeguards for labor exploitation and pollution and monopoly/oligopoly effects. Socialists would add at least a few more services, if not many more. I would hope everyone wants to work to keep government as streamlined and efficacious as possible with the minimum necessary safeguards, but I also don’t want to throw babies out with their bathwaters. As you probably figured, I’m not a fan of debates on negative rights vs. positive rights because it’s a totally meaningless distinction to me.

 

3. Perceived Failures of Progressivism: I’ve noticed how many Americans tend to blame progressives for government failures that are actually neoliberal in nature, not progressive...namely the economic ones. Remember how I argued that progressives don’t have much political power in the United States? We couldn’t even get a completely watered-down Build Back Better Act passed! The Biden administration has been neoliberal to the core since day one. But while I think our ideas are super awesome for the most part, some admittedly need to go back to the drawing board and/or need work on the messaging. I’ve already conceded some of the law-and-order issues to you. I won’t concede border control and economic protectionism to you because true progressivism isn’t about open borders and globalism; it’s about humane treatment of illegal immigrants and pro-worker policies. I can partly concede the “Cancel Student Debt” movement that you raised because that solution is WAY too simplistic. It ends up being unfair to many Americans who already paid off their college debt or who didn’t go to college, and it doesn’t address the root problems behind exploding college costs. From the perspective of macroeconomic growth, however, Millenial/Gen Z post-secondary educational debt is a gigantic drag on our economy.

 

4. Contemporary Failures of Classical Liberalism: I could go on and on about its flaws when it comes to solving modern macroeconomic problems, everything from fiscal policy to monetary policy. But in the interest of my waning time before bed, I’ll limit my complaining to the big one that is government spending (or rather, lack thereof) in the face of recessions. Let’s take the looming post-COVID recession as a case example. We know during the pandemic that the professional/managerial class (PMC) got wealthier and the working class got poorer. These are objective economic facts, colloquially known as the “Kay-shaped” recovery. Nevertheless, those who identify as classical liberals still argue that the rich are paying too much in taxes right now and the American social safety net is way too generous. The silliest ones even advocate for a flat tax. All of them would rather cool off inflation by having the Fed raise interest rates before ever entertaining the notion of raising taxes on the PMC. But raising interest rates will hit the working class disproportionately hard in the form of unemployment. The U.S. has a 70% consumer spending-based economy, but the very sizable working class won’t have the money to jumpstart it. And we know from recent history (going back to Reagan) that these prospective post-COVID tax cuts for the rich will just be redirected right into company stock buybacks and dividends, not investments in DOMESTIC jobs.

 

5. Future of Progressivism: There’s an ongoing civil war within the progressive movement between the social justice warrior coterie and the economic populist one. I think American progressivism has a bright future as long as the economic populists lead the conversations. The movement is doing extremely well with the under-40 crowd (demography is destiny, as they say!), but admittedly has stalled with Latinos and the male working class since 2016. My people (social democrats and greenies, plus any socialists and commies) need to collaborate and consolidate power like the lefties did in France recently under Jean-Luc Melenchon. I can see a nice path being paved forward for progressives to take over the Democratic Party and the country by the end of this decade. The path pavers here would be the rank incompetency of the Biden administration, the Manchin/Sinema legislative blockade, the Roberts court’s illegitimacy in the public’s eyes (from Citizens United v. FEC back in 2010 all the way to the upcoming Moore v. Harper case), and the massive social catalyst that is the Dobbs reversal of Roe and Casey.

 

EDIT: Corrected a few obvious spelling/grammar errors.

Nothing like calling climategate a conspiracy theory when all that was admitted was the destruction of all of the raw data from the 1980's to 2008 that disputed a pre determined outcome. That is the opposite of science but I am a "conspiracy theorist". Second the Navy part is based on the fact that the equipment to measure the ocean properly has not existed that long, so any long range data is based on guesses not on actual measurements, so a guess will always have an inherent bias. To apply 20 years of data to prove a point of 1000's of years is idiotic. Lastly if  believing that funding people like John Kerry and Bill Gates will actually improve anything is required to be on your side then I am glad to be against you 

[BillStime]

“Pro Life” crowd strikes again - idiots

 

 

[LeviF]

[BillStime]

7 minutes ago, LeviF said:

👆🤡

 

The definition of hypocrisy 

[LeviF]

Just now, BillStime said:

👆🤡

 

The definition of hypocrisy 

 

Don't care lol

 

I can't wait until all these gun laws are killed by the courts. I'm exempt from pretty much all the ones in my state anyway but I just don't get tired of winning.

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, LeviF said:

 

Don't care lol

 

I can't wait until all these gun laws are killed by the courts. I'm exempt from pretty much all the ones in my state anyway but I just don't get tired of winning.

 

You're winning alright... Karma is gonna suck too.  Enjoy the win.

 

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, BillStime said:

“Pro Life” crowd strikes again - idiots

 

 

 

I'd assume there's some provision in there that's politically problematic for the opposition party.  You give the bill a name that everyone should support,  then hide a provision in there that you know the other side can't vote for.  And then you scream from the rooftops that the opponents are the incarnation of evil for voting down your bill,  when you were forcing them to eat a **** sandwich if they did.  That's usually how this little game works, especially a few months before a midterm. Skimming over the bill,  I don't see it, but its probably there.  Given that,  I'd have to hear the reasoning of some who voted against before passing judgement. 

[BillStime]

🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]