bigbill Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Just wondering if you think the Wilson trust is able or willing to give a stay at home discount? If there are two offers and one is $100,000,000 less, would the Trust take the lessor offer if it keeps the bills in Buffalo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I don't know the details of the trust so...don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Depends what the trust states. If if clearly states the #1 goal s to keep the team in Buffalo, then yes easy to do. But no one knows what it states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Also keep in mind that the sale is also subject to review and approval by the NFL. While there may be some tolerance for a small discount that keeps the Bills in Buffalo I do not think the NFL allows for anything that has a "wow" assigned to it. The value of all teams rises if the Bills fetch a significant premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 That's the Billion dollar question. Based on the way Wilson ran the Bills, I would think they will max out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane nelson Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The basic answer is yes, however associated with that answer is risk. If the highest bidder wants to relocate the team it has to go to NFL owners for approval.which creates risk. I would believe like any business transaction risk is associated with value. The NFL has made it clear that the buyer needs to be committed to WNY. So a local bidder is clearly the safer choice. Out of town suitor will clearly have huge hurdles to overcome if he/she wants to move the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KollegeStudnet Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I've always thought the Wilson brass would sell to a party pre selected eventhough it is in a bid. Meaning, there has always been a plan to keep the team here whatever the cause based on Ralph's vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Also keep in mind that the sale is also subject to review and approval by the NFL. While there may be some tolerance for a small discount that keeps the Bills in Buffalo I do not think the NFL allows for anything that has a "wow" assigned to it. The value of all teams rises if the Bills fetch a significant premium. Well stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I do not believe the NFL votes on the trust's decision really other than to vote on the owner selected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Most would agree. very wealthy people do not get that way by giving money away. Now ( Ralph's) philanthropy is an entirely different thing than propping up a declining economy because of decades of government mismanagement. A 100M discount that guarantees what past 2020? It's really hard to see that happening. Why should anyone prop up an area known first and foremost for outrageous taxes? That produces a business climate that keeps business away. But, yes I do understand the health care boom in WNY. But, why is that? An aging population where the cost can easily be passed on to the consumer. because other than relocating what are the choices? So they will come and make their margins easily. Every fan should be aware (and probably are) that tickets, everything will rise big time when a new owner pulls into town. because again he won't be doing this for charity. having a grade A, A-hole like Trump will make the transition even more painful. But him ending up the owner is probably in the noise range. I hope WNY can absorb these costs, and get ready for another big hit in the wallet if a new stadium is ever built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellyto83TD Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 No I am with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 As others have stated, we do not know the terms of the trust. And we may never know. Typically the trustee would be required to take the largest offer and would be monitored by the state the trust was setup in (generally the state where the person lived). However, the sale of a billion dollar NFL team by a trust is hardly a typical situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Just wondering if you think the Wilson trust is able or willing to give a stay at home discount? If there are two offers and one is $100,000,000 less, would the Trust take the lessor offer if it keeps the bills in Buffalo? Depends...the trust may have specific terms that consider valuation of the franchise and valuation of the bid. For example, the trust may say that any bid that promises to pay at least a certain amount for the team AND promises to keep the team in WNY for X number of years shall be considered a more valuable bid than one that does not promise to keep the team in Buffalo, regardless of the de facto number. No Without knowing the terms of the trust, this is a meaningless answer. I am with you Shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hang on....let me pull up my copy of the Trust documents and check.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 That's the Billion dollar question. Based on the way Wilson ran the Bills, I would think they will max out. Care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I do not believe the NFL votes on the trust's decision really other than to vote on the owner selected. That is my understanding as well - that the owners vote on the bidder and not the transaction. Care to elaborate? Ralph was cheap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Care to elaborate? They just didn't seem to leave that much on the table. The outsourcing of games to Toronto for $78 Million over (5 years?) is the best example. If they did that, can we really expect them to leave $100,000,000 + on the table at sale-time? Not that I would expect that from anyone anyways. That is a lot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonbrigade Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Who get's to the final say who buys the team, the NFL or Mrs. Wilson? Do they both have to agree? Does Mrs Wilson or the NFL really care about Buffalo or it all about the Bills $$$$$? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 They just didn't seem to leave that much on the table. The outsourcing of games to Toronto for $78 Million over (5 years?) is the best example. If they did that, can we really expect them to leave $100,000,000 + on the table at sale-time? Not that I would expect that from anyone anyways. That is a lot of money. Trying to get a competitive advantage while still operating in Buffalo? Why did he refuse to sell the naming rights to the stadium? I don't know more than anyone else, but, I wouldn't put it past Ralph to have some special instructions in the trust. His family will reap the rewards and they'll be financially set. They recently sold 4 pieces of art from Ralph's collection that brought in $35M. Knowing how well off they would be perhaps Ralph and his lawyers came up with something to allow the team to stay. We'll see... Outside of one flirtation that I remember with Seattle Ralph never leveraged moving to get more from the county/state. He seemed to be a pragmatic man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I have been involved in the process of applying (successfully) to a trust created after the death of an industrial superstar. this trust has granted my organization multiple grants to do the work we want to do.......the rules of the trust, in this case I am familiar with, requires us to get three bids on the matters we are dealing with. However, the trust does not require us to buy (with their money) from the lowest bidder....it only requires that we have a reason for selecting who we want to do business with.(another words, use judgement) Now, based on that experience, I would say it is legally possible for the Wilson trust to require multiple bidders, and that the members of the board of the trust might well make the final decision. And, that decision might well include a "hometown" discount for a qualified WNY centric new owner. So, if Mary Wilson, Littman, Brandon, and the others make that decision, I don't think there is anybody to second guess them. (certain NFL owners might not like it, but, I think the ownership trust speaks) Finally, the Wilson family has already made out...since the cost basis of the Bills franchise was reset to market value when Mr Wilson passed away. So, no tax will be paid on whatever the sale price is .(other than the appreciation between the date of Mr wilson's passing to the date of sale) I think there is a reasonable possibiity that the bills, then, might stay in WNY.. I am guessing that was Mr Wilson's hope. And, not sure a couple of Billion dollars from a Toronto group would make a difference. I think the hometown discount could be as high as half a bil.......just sayin.....not out of the realm of possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) They just didn't seem to leave that much on the table. The outsourcing of games to Toronto for $78 Million over (5 years?) is the best example. If they did that, can we really expect them to leave $100,000,000 + on the table at sale-time? Not that I would expect that from anyone anyways. That is a lot of money. You are free to point to the Toronto series as your best example of Wilson's fiscal approach, just as I'm free to point to his willingness to keep the team (permanently within his lifetime) in a poor market, and to do so without demanding a new stadium. My examples highlight his willingness to sacrifice the value of his asset to what he saw as his higher obligation to WNY. When looked at this way, Wilson left a LOT on the table. That gesture more than trumps the Toronto series IMO. And I think that painting Mr. Wilson as a soulless money grubber is bad juju at this stage of the game. Remember, $40 million of his money is being invested in RWS at the same time his estate is selling the team that will benefit from those investments. I have been involved in the process of applying (successfully) to a trust created after the death of an industrial superstar. this trust has granted my organization multiple grants to do the work we want to do.......the rules of the trust, in this case I am familiar with, requires us to get three bids on the matters we are dealing with. However, the trust does not require us to buy (with their money) from the lowest bidder....it only requires that we have a reason for selecting who we want to do business with.(another words, use judgement) Now, based on that experience, I would say it is legally possible for the Wilson trust to require multiple bidders, and that the members of the board of the trust might well make the final decision. And, that decision might well include a "hometown" discount for a qualified WNY centric new owner. So, if Mary Wilson, Littman, Brandon, and the others make that decision, I don't think there is anybody to second guess them. (certain NFL owners might not like it, but, I think the ownership trust speaks) Finally, the Wilson family has already made out...since the cost basis of the Bills franchise was reset to market value when Mr Wilson passed away. So, no tax will be paid on whatever the sale price is .(other than the appreciation between the date of Mr wilson's passing to the date of sale) I think there is a reasonable possibiity that the bills, then, might stay in WNY.. I am guessing that was Mr Wilson's hope. And, not sure a couple of Billion dollars from a Toronto group would make a difference. I think the hometown discount could be as high as half a bil.......just sayin.....not out of the realm of possibility. This is one of the most encouraging posts I've read in a long time. Edited June 25, 2014 by BillnutinHouston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 "soulless money grubber" is a straw man and not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth, and those words are pretty low. I dont appreciate it, thats a scummy move. He did "threaten" twice to leave when RWS was built and in 1999. Thats part of doing business though and dont hold it against him. I also dont see him wanting to pay/invest in a relocation fee and getting a stadium built elsewhere in his 80s and 90s when his family will not be involved long-term. I believe its possible the state/county knew he was in a tough spot and came down with very favorable terms. I don't think its unreasonable that Wilson and the trust wish to max out on the sale price. We haven't heard anything concrete otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I don't think its unreasonable that Wilson and the trust wish to max out on the sale price. We haven't heard anything concrete otherwise. We also haven't heard anything concrete to say that the trust must accept the highest bid. We're all speculating and where you stand on the topic is simply a matter of personal conjecture. I choose to believe what I believe and you are doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLFan Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 It would be illogical to assume the Trust must take the highest bid. Ultimately the NFL must approve the sale and their criteria will encompass more than price. There will be many factors in evaluating the bids including both price and intention on eventual location of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think if its close, Pegula will bid enough to put him over the top. Even if its close, I bet the trust has some lateral room to justify the local bid and the extra money would potentially be made up anyways from no delays, votes, courts, etc... Its the silly money I worry about, like if Rogers comes over the top with like $.5 Billion+ more than the next highest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Greg Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I think if its close, Pegula will bid enough to put him over the top. Even if its close, I bet the trust has some lateral room to justify the local bid and the extra money would potentially be made up anyways from no delays, votes, courts, etc... Its the silly money I worry about, like if Rogers comes over the top with like $.5 Billion+ more than the next highest That is my concern, as well. One question I haven't seen much on is if an out of town bidder put in a higher bid, would the trust give other bidders the chance to beat that bid? I'm not really sure if there's a back and forth element or if you just submit one bid. Like people Have said, maybe Pegula bids 1.2 and Rogers 1.5... could he go 1.55 or something and beat them out? Maybe that's an unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 No You are of course giving your opinion so even though you dont know its ok to say this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) That is my concern, as well. One question I haven't seen much on is if an out of town bidder put in a higher bid, would the trust give other bidders the chance to beat that bid? I'm not really sure if there's a back and forth element or if you just submit one bid. Like people Have said, maybe Pegula bids 1.2 and Rogers 1.5... could he go 1.55 or something and beat them out? Maybe that's an unknown. I would say almost definitely yes, they can revise their bids. If it were public/government, thats not the case. my fear is Rogers may have unmatchable money. Not sure how liquid Ed Rogers is, but Rogers Communications wanted the NHL so they paid $5.2 Billion for the TV rights. That scared the poop out of me. If Ed Rogers goes north of $2 Billion, can you blame Pegula for not matching and can you blame the Trust for selecting that bid? Edited June 25, 2014 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Also keep in mind that the sale is also subject to review and approval by the NFL. While there may be some tolerance for a small discount that keeps the Bills in Buffalo I do not think the NFL allows for anything that has a "wow" assigned to it. The value of all teams rises if the Bills fetch a significant premium. I think you "get it" with this point. I think most people don't get it and operate under the illusion that the primary decision maker in all of this the individual team owner. Maybe this was true back in the hay day of George Halas, but it ain't your grandma's NFL anymore. The individual team owner long ago ceded control to the partnership of 32 teams which make up the NFL. They did this because they make more money as individuals by co-operating with each other than they would if they solely competed against each other in a traditional free market. Ralph himself contractually agreed to sell the team only to a buyer who can get the support of roughly 75% of their fellow owners. The fellow owners are also driven by what will make them the most $. They will get their 1/31st of whatever transfer payments come from the sale. This is a chunk of cash, but pales next to the true cash cow delivering $ to the Bills the TV networks. THIS WHY I DOUBT THE BILLS WILL EVER MOVE. What the NFL is really making the big $ from is selling a story. If the Bills move it certainly does give each team their 1/31st of the transfer fees, but if the team stays put, they get to sale a far better story of 40 years of NFL history which the Bills as an original AFL team are a big part of. Even worse, if the Bills leave the NFL story features 5+ years of the city and region dieing. Will the NFL take less $ for the team to stay put? Yes, because they make a lot more money by the team staying in Buffalo than messing up the story they are selling to the TV nets for a mere 1/31st of an increased transfer fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I would say almost definitely yes, they can revise their bids. If it were public/government, thats not the case. my fear is Rogers may have unmatchable money. Not sure how liquid Ed Rogers is, but Rogers Communications wanted the NHL so they paid $5.2 Billion for the TV rights. That scared the poop out of me. If Ed Rogers goes north of $2 Billion, can you blame Pegula for not matching and can you blame the Trust for selecting that bid? I am of the opinion (and I cant prove it any more then anyone can prove their point on anything on this subject) but I will stick to it...... Pegula is going to be told in some way what that final bid was from the out of town bidders because while the trust is there to max out the profit they also want to keep that team in Buffalo....... I get visions of a little boy dressed in buddah garb running a scroll to the Pegula camp with a number on it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I am of the opinion (and I cant prove it any more then anyone can prove their point on anything on this subject) but I will stick to it...... Pegula is going to be told in some way what that final bid was from the out of town bidders because while the trust is there to max out the profit they also want to keep that team in Buffalo....... I get visions of a little boy dressed in buddah garb running a scroll to the Pegula camp with a number on it........ If it is supposed to be a bidding process with a NDA in place, this would appear to be highly unethical and potentially illegal. But like you, I am flying blind as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I'm sure one term of the sale will be "Subject to approval of the owners". As has been stated the other oweners would want the sale to go to the highest bidder as it helps increase the value of their team. However, if the Wilson trust were to accept a lower bid, even much lower and the NFL turns it down, I could see a long court case which I'm sure other owners won't want. So they may tend to agree on a lower offer than they'd hoped for just to close things out. The NFL's track record in court isn't very good to start with, imagine the publicity "Estate wishes to accept a lower sale price to keep the team in Western NY, but owners reject offer as they want top $$" That would go over well!! Who get's to the final say who buys the team, the NFL or Mrs. Wilson? Do they both have to agree? Does Mrs Wilson or the NFL really care about Buffalo or it all about the Bills $$$$$? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 "soulless money grubber" is a straw man and not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth, and those words are pretty low. I dont appreciate it, thats a scummy move. He did "threaten" twice to leave when RWS was built and in 1999. Thats part of doing business though and dont hold it against him. I also dont see him wanting to pay/invest in a relocation fee and getting a stadium built elsewhere in his 80s and 90s when his family will not be involved long-term. I believe its possible the state/county knew he was in a tough spot and came down with very favorable terms. I don't think its unreasonable that Wilson and the trust wish to max out on the sale price. We haven't heard anything concrete otherwise. Sorry that you take issue with how I read your earlier post, and yes I wrongly put words in your mouth. My bad. But saying he "didn't leave much on the table" ignores the fact that he sacrificed a lot, both over the years and in the final sales price of his asset, by staying put (even before there was such a thing as relocation fees). His refusal to seek a new stadium is additional evidence that he was very restrained in how he applied leverage to WNY & NYS. It's too easy to take Wilson's loyalty for granted and minimize what that loyalty cost him, and I suspect that Mr. Wilson's family and financial advisors would take issue with the statement that he "didn't leave much on the table". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurlyBurly51 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I am of the opinion (and I cant prove it any more then anyone can prove their point on anything on this subject) but I will stick to it...... Pegula is going to be told in some way what that final bid was from the out of town bidders because while the trust is there to max out the profit they also want to keep that team in Buffalo....... I get visions of a little boy dressed in buddah garb running a scroll to the Pegula camp with a number on it........ I hope so. My nightmare scenario is MLSE comes in with a blow you away offer in excess of $2B and the others walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 If it is supposed to be a bidding process with a NDA in place, this would appear to be highly unethical and potentially illegal. But like you, I am flying blind as well. Would be fascinating to know if the NDA precludes a process that allows for give and take among bidders and the trustees. I would think that an interactive process between bidder and trustees works to the benefit of the trust. I'd also think the NDA is designed solely to protect the parties from disclosure of information outside of the main players. The question is, does it prevent the explicit or implicit sharing of proptrietary bid information of one group with another? Even if it does, there are ways... I hope so. My nightmare scenario is MLSE comes in with a blow you away offer in excess of $2B Hopefully this is when Pegula gets Golisano on the phone and asks for a little help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 If it is supposed to be a bidding process with a NDA in place, this would appear to be highly unethical and potentially illegal. But like you, I am flying blind as well. I believe the NDA serves to dissuade bidders from disclosing information relating to the financial documents of the Buffalo Bills. And with good reason. Teams won't let anybody see their books. Ever. National security secrets should be as closely held. I doubt the NDA prevents the trust from communicating anything to the bidders, including the status of the bids and the ability to ask for best and final offers. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpleman Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 With all this talk of Toronto, I think everyone is forgetting the mammoth financial risk the NFL could be taking by forgetting the political backlash that could result if the team is moved out of the U.S. Patriotism and pragmatism over losing a U.S. team to another country could result in congress removing the numerous special legal exemptions and tax preferences that the U.S. has granted the NFL owners. We are talking billions of dollars in real loses over the years for the various team owners. Moving the team to somewhere else in the U.S. would not have any major national political risks, but a move to Canada could have potentially severe financial and business consequences for all NFL owners. The trust and the NFL would have to take that into account somehow in valuing the approval of the sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Hard to know. I've said all along that Ralph's dying wishes to his family was to keep the team here if they possibly could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 What the NFL is really making the big $ from is selling a story. If the Bills move it certainly does give each team their 1/31st of the transfer fees, but if the team stays put, they get to sale a far better story of 40 years of NFL history which the Bills as an original AFL team are a big part of. Even worse, if the Bills leave the NFL story features 5+ years of the city and region dieing. Will the NFL take less $ for the team to stay put? Yes, because they make a lot more money by the team staying in Buffalo than messing up the story they are selling to the TV nets for a mere 1/31st of an increased transfer fee. where do you come up with this concept of a meaningful "transfer fee" and teams getting 1/31st? Whatever the Bills sell for goes to the Wilson family and trust not the NFL. The point of my original post was that the NFL has an approval process, by-laws and ultimately an owner vote to saying who can buy the team. Whether they have any direct say over how much the team sells for is murky. The point of my original post they are not going to approve the "who" if that person is looking to buy at a price point that devalues the other teams in the league. I said years ago and I still believe the best hope that Buffalo has for retaining the team is built off it's connection to the Toronto and Southern Ontario market and the political fallout that may arise from moving the only true NY team out of NY. In the end I believe that Buffalo may dodge the bullet in the upcoming transaction though in the long term if the economic and population decline of Buffalo / WNY is not reversed that if the "new" owner sells at some number of years into the future the team will be moved. I would love the idea of Green Bay sort of public trust ownership but there is no way the billionaire owners club ever allows that to happen again. At the end of the day the NFL is a business built on TV and marketing revenue being in a small and declining market (without Southern Ontario being included in the mix) is not sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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