How should the Bills utilize graham and Goodwin?

[KeepHopeAlive]

The bills should take a page from how the Vikings used Percy Harvin to their advantage. Three things; First, they understood their limitations at QB something the bills may have to understand this year as well. Second, they had a great running game as do the Bills, and third they had one of the fastest most agile players on the field in percy harvin. What does this mean for the Bills? Get your fastest most athletic players the ball quickly and in space heck maybe use them in the run game as well. It may be a stretch to be comparing TJ and MG to Percy at all ,but they are some of the fastest players in the game and are of similar stature. I can clearly envision CJ, TJ, and MG (or even Woods) wreaking havoc on opps by getting the ball in space early and often. It may be a screen pass or a swing pass or just slinging it out to the sideline like the vikings did to percy so often but please lets get our speed guys the ball in space! GO BILLS http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/173417661.html

Edited July 10, 2013 by KeepHopeAlive

[mrags]

I was thinking they are more like Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin of the Iggles.

[Food_Pyramid_Wrong]

go long.

 

next question.

[eball]

To borrow a favorite football expression, TG and MG should be utilized to "take the lid off" the opponent's defense.

[Pirate Angel]

when the running game is going well use play action and hope a safety bites as you send these guys long. I don't believe Kolb has the arm to really utilize down field receivers although he has to be an improvement over Fitz. You most likely wont see the field stretched that much until EJ is the full time starter

[atlbillsfan1975]

I like the underneath routes in space, but echo the sentiments of Goodwin and Graham need to get open and catch the ball on deep fly patterns. This will do so much to help open up Stevie, Chandler, and Woods.

CJ average yard per carry last year was astonishing when you factor in that teams did not really need to respect the deep ball.

[KeepHopeAlive]

I like the underneath routes in space, but echo the sentiments of Goodwin and Graham need to get open and catch the ball on deep fly patterns. This will do so much to help open up Stevie, Chandler, and Woods.

CJ average yard per carry last year was astonishing when you factor in that teams did not really need to respect the deep ball.

I agree to the point that if we can stretch the field the with them we should do that as well but I think sending just sending them deep a couple times a game is not capitalizing on how they could have the biggest impact on the game

 

go long.

 

next question.

do you think kickoff return and punt return a possibility for these guys as well?

[playman]

friendly flankers

 

line up outside on our sideline, go deep, step out, the other one in. repeat until the CB on that side falls unconcious

[DrDawkinstein]

By throwing them the ball so they can get in the endzone. Or by throwing them the ball while in the endzone.

 

Thats what I got.

[Leelee Phoenix]

Graham is nothing like Harvin. He's a former track guy that showed a knack for catching the deep ball in college. He's not a shifty runner, nor is he built for that. Then, last year, he dropped a lot of balls and was arguably the worst WR in the NFL. To be fair, his role was wasted under a QB like Fitz. Graham did show separation ability and was open often... although, you could use the Fitz argument there as well and suggest defenses didn't need to respect him.

 

Goodwin has potential to be a Harvin-like player. But, there's good reason he was drafted where he was. He's 5'8, and is very raw since he was primarily a track star most of his time at Texas. I like drafting the athlete philosophy, but it will require patience. I'm not expecting much from him next year.

[GG]

Only throw them touchdown passes?

[K-9]

Graham is nothing like Harvin. He's a former track guy that showed a knack for catching the deep ball in college. He's not a shifty runner, nor is he built for that. Then, last year, he dropped a lot of balls and was arguably the worst WR in the NFL. To be fair, his role was wasted under a QB like Fitz. Graham did show separation ability and was open often... although, you could use the Fitz argument there as well and suggest defenses didn't need to respect him.

 

Goodwin has potential to be a Harvin-like player. But, there's good reason he was drafted where he was. He's 5'8, and is very raw since he was primarily a track star most of his time at Texas. I like drafting the athlete philosophy, but it will require patience. I'm not expecting much from him next year.

 

I don't care how often a receiver gets open, once he drops enough balls and runs enough improper routes, the QB is gonna give up on him. That clearly happened with Graham last season.

 

From what little we've seen of this new regime in the OTAs and mini-camp, Marrone wants to pressure defenses constantly with a high tempo offense that gets the defense running from sideline to sideline and then deep; a classic spread 'em and stretch 'em philosophy. Marrone appears to like the middle seams a lot, too.

 

That's the good news. The bad news is, that type of offense puts pressure on your own guys as well. Takes brains, precision (read timing), and stamina. I hope we're up for it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[eball]

Graham is nothing like Harvin. He's a former track guy that showed a knack for catching the deep ball in college. He's not a shifty runner, nor is he built for that. Then, last year, he dropped a lot of balls and was arguably the worst WR in the NFL. To be fair, his role was wasted under a QB like Fitz. Graham did show separation ability and was open often... although, you could use the Fitz argument there as well and suggest defenses didn't need to respect him.

 

Goodwin has potential to be a Harvin-like player. But, there's good reason he was drafted where he was. He's 5'8, and is very raw since he was primarily a track star most of his time at Texas. I like drafting the athlete philosophy, but it will require patience. I'm not expecting much from him next year.

 

Hyperbole much? Per usual, your takes are overly negative and not very well-informed. Ask any Texas fan and they'll tell you Goodwin was horribly underutilized in that system. Just because guys run track doesn't make them "track first" athletes; both Graham and Goodwin will tell you they are football players who also just happen to run track. Graham did struggle with drops last year and might not have "natural" hands, but all offseason reports concerning his progression from year one to year two have been glowing.

 

Both of these guys are 3rd round draft picks; teams don't waste picks that high on "track guys" they're trying to teach how to play football.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Interesting topic. It is very likely Graham and Goodwin both will be able to get open deep, what happens after that is a big question. Can the QB accurately get the ball there? Can they run under and catch it?

The underneath stuff was what Chans offense did and as opposing defenses likely lost little sleep about what happened when buf WRs got behind their safeties, and were thus able to play closer in there never really ended up being much "space". Plus those 4 wide sets tended to put the best defensive athletes on the field too which would close down lanes fast.

 

It is interesting what you mention about minni. They had roughly similar strengths and weaknesses and approached it with entirely different formation sets.

[papazoid]

on kickoffs

[KeepHopeAlive]

Interesting topic. It is very likely Graham and Goodwin both will be able to get open deep, what happens after that is a big question. Can the QB accurately get the ball there? Can they run under and catch it?

The underneath stuff was what Chans offense did and as opposing defenses likely lost little sleep about what happened when buf WRs got behind their safeties, and were thus able to play closer in there never really ended up being much "space". Plus those 4 wide sets tended to put the best defensive athletes on the field too which would close down lanes fast.

 

It is interesting what you mention about minni. They had roughly similar strengths and weaknesses and approached it with entirely different formation sets.

The great thing is that while minni had no options for deep passes or the qb to make them we might actually have a good deep threat.. so imagine how effective it will be to make teams try to cover a bunch of quick passes and swing passes and throws to the side which will help with qb pressure that kolb or rookie will have trouble with .. then to go deep a few times a game!!

[DDD]

They can run but more importantly can they play football? Was not impressed by Graham last year and Goodwin's collegiate career was underwhelming. Now the kid from USC looks like he can play. I expect good things from him. Graham and Goodwin, not so much.

[K-9]

They can run but more importantly can they play football? Was not impressed by Graham last year and Goodwin's collegiate career was underwhelming. Now the kid from USC looks like he can play. I expect good things from him. Graham and Goodwin, not so much.

 

Goodwin is a football player who ran track. Graham is a track star who plays football. They couldn't be more different as football players. Goodwin is the real deal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[billsfan89]

Design plays to get both of those guys in space, use end arounds and screens too. I think both guys can flourish if you create for them. I feel like Stevie and possibly/hopefully Woods and Rodgers are guys that can create for themselves while Graham and Goodwin need to have plays designed for them.

 

I do feel like they might also be able to try big plays down field for them too but those short screens and end arounds are good for them.

[The Wiz]

Only throw them touchdown passes?

And destroy every fantasy football players team that has Stevie.

[VirginiaMike]

The Bills tried a lot of screens with Graham last year with limited success. Maybe Goodwin is different. I see Johnson & Woods in there every down with Johnson in the slot when either Graham or Goodwin outside. Let's utilize Johnson and Woods first.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Quick screens out wide, quick cut slants and also reverses. That , and send one deep at all times.

[CardinalScotts]

graham is the long striding outside guy and goodwin is the burner out of the slot or in motion

[Kemp]

Until he proves otherwise, Graham stinks. Goodwin is an unknown. Hopefully he is a lot better than Graham.

[swnybillsfan]

i could be completely wrong here, but graham seems like he is more straight line speed guy where you get him going in one direction and hit him in stride and he can burn you. whereas goodwin seems like he has a bit more start and stop/shiftiness to his game, maybe a bit like a smaller cj. i can only go off of the highlights i saw of goodwin and the limited action i saw from graham last year to come to these conclusions. all i know is that they both have a lot of speed to offer, and the coach hackett will do all he can to use them to the fullest. it's on them to perform or get out of the way of the next man up.

[Pete]

I predict Goodwin is NFL Offensive rookie of year. He is not only a phenomenal athlete, he is a football player who did produce in college. He was one of my favorite players predraft, and I was quite happy the Bills drafted him. Write it down- Goodwin will be great this year!

[RealityCheck]

Let's not forget that Goodwin is a willing run blocker.

[swnybillsfan]

Let's not forget that Goodwin is a willing run blocker.

as much as i appreciate that sentiment, i really don't want to see him trying to block vince wilfork.

[FluffHead]

Everyone saying "Goodwin is a football player who ran track". His collegiate production was rather underwhelming. I'm not expecting much from him this season

[boyst]

On 3rd down and long...I think I need to change pants.

 

Imagine EJ or Kolb in the backfield. Single back. Robert Woods out wide at split SJ13 right off the line at Slot. TJ Graham or Goodwin...or both, Flanking Woods. Alright, we can have both of them in or someone else.

 

If we put one of them in motion behind passing SJ13 that will reveal a lot. That could put trips on on side. Maybe before that you bring CJ at slot opposite SJ13. The QB would have a lot of reads he could make and the arm to get it across the field to anyone on there. He could still get CJ to do a reverse and get SJ13 to do a contain block. If it is FJ he could pitch to him and let him pass it on a sweep if TJ and Goodwin stretch the field. Hell. There is a lot of things I could easily picture that would stretch the field open and create space in the middle. However, I am not sure how well CJ will do without 10 guys in the box. So, I am a little worried.

[enlightener]

Goodwin is a football player who ran track. Graham is a track star who plays football. They couldn't be more different as football players. Goodwin is the real deal.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

i was wondering if goodwin wasnt a replacement for graham, but if graham continues to impress...hes taller and bigger and about as fast. and again, its football, not brain surgery. these guys can still grow and improve. Id like to think we have the makings of a fab four like houston used to have with Moon. 4 ballers, the best of which (sj) is the slowest.

 

Also to the OP...quick and early means a 5 yard slant which gets you 5 yards most of the time. Or incomplete. Its nice to dream about a 2 second release and TJ or MG going to the house but it just doesnt work that way. Play action or just going deep...thats how you get points.

 

i could be completely wrong here, but graham seems like he is more straight line speed guy where you get him going in one direction and hit him in stride and he can burn you. whereas goodwin seems like he has a bit more start and stop/shiftiness to his game, maybe a bit like a smaller cj. i can only go off of the highlights i saw of goodwin and the limited action i saw from graham last year to come to these conclusions. all i know is that they both have a lot of speed to offer, and the coach hackett will do all he can to use them to the fullest. it's on them to perform or get out of the way of the next man up.

 

yes maybe he will be as good as parish!!!!! he was like that. same size too!

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Lots of nice, conventional ideas for using their speed. None of which will surprise any of our division rivals. Let's put our speed guys in position to succeed by thinking outside the box and using them unconventionally.

 

2 ideas:

 

1. Make them both hold for field goals. Most fake field goals fail because the runner doesn't have the speed to get to the first down marker before the defense reacts. These guys can change that. If we run a fake with one and he doesn't make it, give the other one a chance the next time - - nobody will expect THAT.

 

2. Steal a cornerback jersey from the other team and sneak them on the field out wide at the last minute. The other team's dbs won't cover a guy they think is one of their own - - TD!!!!

Edited July 10, 2013 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[Webster Guy]

Little burners at WR in the NFL are always intriguing and fun to see on the roster and on the field, but if you look at the production receivers in the league, they're rarely guys like TJ Graham and Goodwin.

 

There are a few exceptions but I don't expect either one of those two guys to change any games for us this year as receivers. Kick/punt returners maybe. That would be great.

 

I don't think TJ Graham will be in the NFL in two years. Getting separation on deep routes is only a small part of the game, the rest is stuff like body control, timing your jumps, ball instincts, pushing off without getting flagged, hands, route adjustments etc. and TJ doesn't have it. I hope I'm wrong, and he's still just a kid learning the ropes, but I'd rather have a bigger target with great hands like David Nelson on my roster than TJ Graham all day long.

 

This stretching the field stuff is overrated, I want receivers that can get open consistently and help move the chains. Its the formula NE uses and it works.

 

Looking forward to seeing Goodwin in camp this year, he flashes some DeSean Jackson stuff in his highlights, seems tough and strong for his size.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Lots of nice, conventional ideas for using their speed. None of which will surprise any of our division rivals. Let's put our speed guys in position to succeed by thinking outside the box and using them unconventionally.

 

2 ideas:

 

1. Make them both hold for field goals. Most fake field goals fail because the runner doesn't have the speed to get to the first down marker before the defense reacts. These guys can change that. If we run a fake with one and he doesn't make it, give the other one a chance the next time - - nobody will expect THAT.

 

2. Steal a cornerback jersey from the other team and sneak them on the field out wide at the last minute. The other team's dbs won't cover a guy they think is one of their own - - TD!!!!

 

Short-yardage/goal line running backs!

[billsrcursed]

Everyone saying "Goodwin is a football player who ran track". His collegiate production was rather underwhelming. I'm not expecting much from him this season

 

His production when touching the football was actually pretty damned good. It was the amount of "touches" that was underwhelming.

 

Can't blame him for that.

 

He's not Graham, and he's certainly not Roscoe Parrish. Lumping in all small wr's is silly. This kid's better than that.

[peterlaw]

Not convinced that either will feature in our Base Line Up. CJ. Stevie. Woods. Chandler should be 4 of the 5. Then Freddie if 2 back set, sometimes 2 TEs either a blocker (Smith) or route runner (Gragg). How often 3 WRs? Depends how good our QBs are at throwing the longer ball. But agree that stretching the field may help our cause and tire the DBs. See Graham & Goodwin as situational players but feel sure that Hackett can provide a package for them.

 

But it would be nice to see a 80 yard EJ to Goodwin bomb first up against the Pats ! Graham was hugely disappointing last year, but maybe a better scheme may help him.

[KeepHopeAlive]

Quick screens out wide, quick cut slants and also reverses. That , and send one deep at all times.

I agree wholeheartedly I think that the bills receivers will be much more effective when opp ds have to respect the bubble screens the dinks and dives the reverses the slinging it out wide... once that is established as a threat the long ball will be there all day long.. I think that bills TE should take a back seat to the dynamic receivers we now have!!

[bigK14094]

on kickoffs

Bills had the best in the NFL last season in McKelvin. HIs job to loose.

[Dorkington]

Get open deep, and hopefully our QB can actually hit one of them, to open up room in the short and mid range games for Johnson, Woods and Spiller.

 

Dear god I hope Kolb or Manuel can actually hit someone down the field,heh.

[swnybillsfan]

i was wondering if goodwin wasnt a replacement for graham, but if graham continues to impress...hes taller and bigger and about as fast. and again, its football, not brain surgery. these guys can still grow and improve. Id like to think we have the makings of a fab four like houston used to have with Moon. 4 ballers, the best of which (sj) is the slowest.

 

Also to the OP...quick and early means a 5 yard slant which gets you 5 yards most of the time. Or incomplete. Its nice to dream about a 2 second release and TJ or MG going to the house but it just doesnt work that way. Play action or just going deep...thats how you get points.

 

 

 

yes maybe he will be as good as parish!!!!! he was like that. same size too!

you know, the whole time that roscoe was here i was really hoping that one of these coaching staffs would figure out how to use him. chan came close, but i really wanted somebody to get the ball into his hands in space so that he could make a couple guys miss and fly right past a couple more. if goodwin has roscoe-essque ability and coach hackett can make use of those skills, i think i will be jumping out of my seat with excitement on several occasions this season.