Super Bowl LVIII game thread.

[Wayne Arnold]

I'm intrigued to see Jim Harbaugh in the AFC West with an elite quarterback talent to mold.

 

Mahomes thinks this whole winning Super Bowls thing is very easy and he'll just keep winning them. *raspy Kermit the Frog voice* "We're not done!" But it's not going to be nearly as easy moving forward. The division will now be more difficult for them to win. I see Jones leaving. At some point soon Kelce and Reid will be retiring.

 

They solidified their dynasty last night. Congrats to them, they earned it. Happy for lifelong Chiefs fans and the humble city of KC. But they weren't a dominant team this season. There was a tiny difference between the Chiefs and Bills this year. 

 

On to the 2024 season...

[DapperCam]

5 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

Yes, supporting cast matters. But it’s debatable that KC’s had the better supporting cast, especially the last two years. People pick and choose whatever fits the argument. First it was that he had Tyreek Hill. When he was traded, the narrative shifted to it’s unfair that he has an all world TE. Now that Kelce is aging, and the WRs and tackles are weak, the narrative shifts to he has a better defense. 

Let’s not forget that the Bills were favored in that game. Allen was at home and had more offensive talent around him. Not sure I’d say he had the harder task. Mahomes had to play a near-perfect game to win. 

Also, there seems to be a lot of revisionism regarding Buffalo’s talent. Leading up to the divisional round, almost every Bills fan was predicting a win and a run to the SB. Only after the game did I see the claim that they lacked the talent to do it.

I don’t think it is revisionism. The Chiefs have had a better supporting cast on offense every year except this year, where it is more of a push.

 

Kelce is a first ballot HOF player and possibly the GOAT TE. Hill was an incredible talent for KC and might have won MVP this year with slightly better health with noodle arm Tua (so it wasn’t just Mahomes making him great). He has an outside shot at the HOF as well.

 

This year KC pass catchers = Bills pass catchers after Diggs’ inexplicable regression. Bills RBs were slightly better, but I would argue Pacheco was better at certain types of runs (e.g. if you *need* 2-3 yards he will run through arm tackles for them). Chiefs IOL was the best in the league. Bills offensive tackles were better than the Chiefs tackles.

Overall I would say talent on offense was a push. But the big difference is the KC defense and special teams was on a totally different level than the Bills. Especially in the playoffs when it counts (in fairness the defense was very injured in the playoffs, but it still resulted in a loss).

[Ghost_002!]

I say Kansas City doesn't win it next year. I think the Bills n Allen finally get over that hump (non-bills fan take)

[mannc]

6 hours ago, SaulGoodman said:

 

Also, there seems to be a lot of revisionism regarding Buffalo’s talent. Leading up to the divisional round, almost every Bills fan was predicting a win and a run to the SB. Only after the game did I see the claim that they lacked the talent to do it.

That’s the thing about the postseason…it reveals truths about your team that might not have been apparent in the regular season.  

Edited February 12 by mannc

[Bermuda Triangle]

9 hours ago, DapperCam said:

 

The Bills must have one of the worst playoff defenses the past 5 years right? Both in terms of yards allowed and points allowed per game?

 

I mean compared to the Chiefs defensive performance in the playoffs it isn’t even close, I know that.

The SF defense forced more punts yesterday than the Bills did in their last 3 playoff games against the Chiefs.

[UKBillFan]

3 hours ago, zow2 said:

 

I agree about the defense, they played awesome...but Mahomes did make plays to tie at the end and he lead them to the winning TD in OT.   You can't just say he was along for the ride.  He willed them to win imo.  He has the it factor.

 

True, but Josh has that too. The surrounding parts made it tick for the Chiefs and kept them in the game whilst Mahomes worked it out. More often than not, particularly post season, Josh doesn't have that luxury.

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

You would knowingly take a worse QB? Why?

 

Would you have taken Drew Brees over Brady as well?

It’s clearly NEVER going to happen for Shanahan. He forgot CMC was on the team for the third Q.

 

EDIT - My original reply was stupidly petulant so I'm going to edit. I think 31 teams would trade for Mahomes now. I think 30 would trade for Josh. But if the question is would I could go back, keep draft position in 2017 and pick a raw Mahomes or continue, trade, and pick a raw Josh in 2018, knowing what we know, I would still go for the latter.

 

I think Mahomes would have struggled more to learn and grow under the coaching and roster in the early days in Buffalo than Josh did. I don't think temperament wouldn't have suited the scenario he found himself in - look at the almighty sulk after the regular season game this year. I don't think he would have got to this point under McDermott; my belief is he would have looked worse than Josh because, IMO, Josh's ceiling is higher and his 'superman' mode can overcome deficiencies which even Mahomes can not. The issue is the floor - Mahomes, when struggling, does not go as low as Josh can. I also think Mahomes is better at reading the field. I appreciate zow2's argument that Josh is the better football player but Mahomes the better QB. But because of temperament and mentality, I would not still not change anything in 2017/2018 drafts when it comes to the QB pick.

Edited February 12 by UKBillFan

[Brand J]

10 hours ago, DapperCam said:

They didn’t even muff the punt (at least in the traditional way). Ball bounced off

the back of the heel of an engaged blocker.

 

Just monumental amounts of good fortune for the Chiefs.

 

KC actually did muff a punt, but the guy recovered it. (Again, good fortune…)

No other team has benefited from such fortuitous circumstances like the Chiefs. Remember last year when they were getting dominated by Philly and then Hurts fumbles for 6? Or when the refs called a ticky tack hold on the Eagles defender to seal the game for KC? Or the game before that where the Bengal defender shoved Mahomes late out of bounds to put them in FG range? I can’t really explain how the bounces always seem to go their way. The one time it didn’t - last night where the 49ers were gifted a fresh set of downs after a defensive hold - they still come through with the TD to steal it in the end. They’ve got a knack for winning even when they should lose. Gotta give it to them.

[UKBillFan]

54 minutes ago, Brand J said:

No other team has benefited from such fortuitous circumstances like the Chiefs. Remember last year when they were getting dominated by Philly and then Hurts fumbles for 6? Or when the refs called a ticky tack hold on the Eagles defender to seal the game for KC? Or the game before that where the Bengal defender shoved Mahomes late out of bounds to put them in FG range? I can’t really explain how the bounces always seem to go their way. The one time it didn’t - last night where the 49ers were gifted a fresh set of downs after a defensive hold - they still come through with the TD to steal it in the end. They’ve got a knack for winning even when they should lose. Gotta give it to them.

 

The only reason the Chiefs scored a TD in regulation last night is because the ball clipped a Niner's heel from a punt.

[zow2]

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

No other team has benefited from such fortuitous circumstances like the Chiefs. Remember last year when they were getting dominated by Philly and then Hurts fumbles for 6? Or when the refs called a ticky tack hold on the Eagles defender to seal the game for KC? Or the game before that where the Bengal defender shoved Mahomes late out of bounds to put them in FG range? I can’t really explain how the bounces always seem to go their way. The one time it didn’t - last night where the 49ers were gifted a fresh set of downs after a defensive hold - they still come through with the TD to steal it in the end. They’ve got a knack for winning even when they should lose. Gotta give it to them.

 

KC's final four possessions were TD, FG, FG, TD.   They let Mahomes hang around, he will figure it out and it's inevitably over.  This QB, the Chiefs franchise, the city have been touched by god.

[SaulGoodman]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

There should be revisionism..

 

Iron sharpens iron and playoffs are where you find out what you’re made of. 

 

And it’s a little bizarre to me to act like we had more talent when we were down Gabe Davis and Diggs looked entirely like a WR2 down the stretch.

 

Nevermind the fact that Allen had to go up against a mostly healthy elite defense, whereas Mahomes faced a mash unit back 7 for us.  Maybe that somehow doesn’t matter to you .. it certainly doesn’t seem to matter in the ESPN world that portrays QB’s as if they are playing each other 1v1. 

Just like it didn’t seem to matter that Mahomes was playing behind a third string turnstile OL in Tampa, or that his receivers dropped numerous TD passes. The narrative was that Mahomes can’t beat Brady in the playoffs.
 

But this is very different from that situation. Analysts said that Bucs team had the advantage at all but a handful of starting positions. KC didn’t have that advantage vs the Bills. All year long the narrative was about how poor their offensive personnel was. Meanwhile, everyone in the media was saying that the Bills were just flat better than KC. 
 

You really don’t think the Bills’ offense has more talent right now? They have a better, more consistent running game. Better receiving corps even without Davis (I get that Diggs’ numbers weren’t amazing down the stretch, but I don’t think it’s because he suddenly lost the ability). And don’t forget that everyone was saying that losing Davis was addition by subtraction. Your fans think he’s garbage (I don’t—I think he’d have been the best receiver on KC’s roster until Rice emerged late in the year). Plus, Kelce is slowing down and the tackles are mediocre. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

Woah woah, I want to hear your thoughts on what I said first. I’ve already exercised enough.

 

I was leading up to a point. I'm not going to debate your choices.

 

So now imagine you had the option of switching all of those players except for Allen for Mahomes, or just switching Allen for Mahomes. Clearly you would take switching all of those players, yes? Which means you've already accepted that Allen vs Mahomes was not the driving force of that result, that the surrounding context was. So you already agree with me.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I was leading up to a point. I'm not going to debate your choices.

 

So now imagine you had the option of switching all of those players except for Allen for Mahomes, or just switching Allen for Mahomes. Clearly you would take switching all of those players, yes? Which means you've already accepted that Allen vs Mahomes was not the driving force of that result, that the surrounding context was. So you already agree with me.

Hmm, no.

 

I think I would still like my chances even with Klein in coverage with Mahomes under center, personally 

Edited February 12 by FireChans

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

True, but Josh has that too.

 

This is the crux of my frustration, and I'm guessing the same is true of many other Bills fans. Allen is the only QB in the league that regularly matches Mahomes' intensity in the playoffs. They both have an uncanny ability to turn it on in sudden death games. The only reason that Mahomes has been rewarded more than Allen for raising his play in the playoffs is that he has had the luxury of other players and coaches also raising their play in the playoffs. Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Chris Jones, L'Jarius Sneed. He's always had at least 2 players on his team that have went above and beyond in the playoffs. Ditto for his coaches. When has Allen had that luxury? Never. The first time he does I believe we will win a Super Bowl. But the current coaching staff and front office have not shown that they are capable of giving him that luxury so I remain pessimistic.

[FilthyBeast]

Last night was probably the first superbowl I didn't watch from start to finish that I can remember because of the inevitable. In fact strangely enough once the 49ers went up 10-0 that's the point I knew the game was already over.....for them ironically.

 

Obviously Bills fans (and 30 other NFL fanbases) would love to be in the Chiefs shoes, but the reality is that outside of KC it truly sucks watching this especially knowing whats coming the next 10-15 years as this latest dynasty is just getting started. Sure they'll be some 'down years' for Mahomes and the Chiefs (i.e. still in playoffs but not getting to the superbowl) but those are going to be truly rare.

 

[HappyDays]

Just now, FireChans said:

I think I would still like my chances even with Klein in coverage with Mahomes under center, personally 

 

I just don't agree that Mahomes throwing to our group of weapons against the KC defense would be able to score 3 consecutive TD drives. That's what Allen had to do to keep us in the game. Mahomes couldn't do that against the 49ers defense with his full (and better) offensive supporting cast available. His play from yesterday's first 3 quarters would have had us blown out by KC. If you don't agree with that we'll just agree to disagree I guess.

[Roundybout]

 

[Shortchaz]

10 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Last night was probably the first superbowl I didn't watch from start to finish that I can remember because of the inevitable. In fact strangely enough once the 49ers went up 10-0 that's the point I knew the game was already over.....for them ironically.

 

Obviously Bills fans (and 30 other NFL fanbases) would love to be in the Chiefs shoes, but the reality is that outside of KC it truly sucks watching this especially knowing whats coming the next 10-15 years as this latest dynasty is just getting started. Sure they'll be some 'down years' for Mahomes and the Chiefs (i.e. still in playoffs but not getting to the superbowl) but those are going to be truly rare.

 

I watched until the niners punted after intercepting mahomes to start the second half. The game was over for them at that point imo.  
 

every team the chiefs played in the playoffs completely or partially folded against them. I guess that’s another way of saying they have superior coaching 🤷‍♂️.  

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Hmm, no.

 

Right so now you've gone and changed your answer to make your argument better. Because originally I gave you the option of ranking your choices and you put one option above Allen for Mahomes. Now I'm giving you the option of making all available switches and you're saying you'd take Allen for Mahomes over that option. Which if you evaluate that logic for half a second, you'll recognize the problem.

[FilthyBeast]

4 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

I watched until the niners punted after intercepting mahomes to start the second half. The game was over for them at that point imo.  
 

every team the chiefs played in the playoffs completely or partially folded against them. I guess that’s another way of saying they have superior coaching 🤷‍♂️.  

 

It's exactly what teams did the greater part of 20 years against Brady and the Patriots which is why this act is already tiring with the Chiefs...but sadly they are still early on in this thing and just getting started which is why there's going to be very little enthusiasm watching the NFL as a whole the next 10-15 years.

 

 

[FireChans]

50 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I just don't agree that Mahomes throwing to our group of weapons against the KC defense would be able to score 3 consecutive TD drives. That's what Allen had to do to keep us in the game. Mahomes couldn't do that against the 49ers defense with his full (and better) offensive supporting cast available. His play from yesterday's first 3 quarters would have had us blown out by KC. If you don't agree with that we'll just agree to disagree I guess.

You don’t get rich betting against Tom Brady. You don’t get rich betting against Alabama. You don’t get rich betting against Patrick Mahomes. These are facts of life. 
 

I wouldn’t bet against Patrick Mahomes doing whatever needed to be done to win. Which is why, even if we made that field goal, Mahomes probably wins anyway. Guy is just a winner.

[SCBills]

Sounds familiar…

 

 

[FireChans]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right so now you've gone and changed your answer to make your argument better. Because originally I gave you the option of ranking your choices and you put one option above Allen for Mahomes. Now I'm giving you the option of making all available switches and you're saying you'd take Allen for Mahomes over that option. Which if you evaluate that logic for half a second, you'll recognize the problem.

Yeah, I think Klein was awful. I also think if we have Bernard and Milano we might still have lost. It’s tough.

[QCity]