Best Players to not win an MVP

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really think he’s rewriting the analytics of football.  He’s so good at picking spots to take shots where even an INT doesn’t hurt terribly this season that it kind of makes me chuckle when people just talk about his total INT number.  Not all ints are created equal

 

hes giving his guys shots to make plays for pretty low risk on the majority of his ints it feels like 

Bills had the worst defense in the league for that stretch you mentioned…that jags game decimated the team until Douglas got acclimated and righted the ship a little bit 
 

send Lamar’s number 1 ranked defense on a 1 month vacation and he’d have less wins too 

 

Yeah but that's not how the world works.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yeah but that's not how the world works.

Which part? Lol I’d agree mvp voting doesn’t work that way those are just general comments.  It probably should but it never will.  Feels like it’s part popularity contest and part comparing stat sheets 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Which part? Lol I’d agree mvp voting doesn’t work that way those are just general comments.  It probably should but it never will.  Feels like it’s part popularity contest and part comparing stat sheets 

 

Agree with that part, but also add in third part, number of wins.  Think it may be different too if Bills had lost 3 games instead to KC, Dallas, and Miami  good playoff teams instead of Jax, NE, and Denver . Add to that the Int's Allen through in those games hurt his chances.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree with that part, but also add in third part, number of wins.  Think it may be different too if Bills had lost 3 games instead to KC, Dallas, and Miami  good playoff teams instead of Jax, NE, and Denver . Add to that the Int's Allen through in those games hurt his chances.

Yea which I also find kind of strange…Josh was pretty good in 2 of those 3 losses.  I think it’s the turnover narrative working against him more than anything 

[C.Biscuit97]

27 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really think he’s rewriting the analytics of football.  He’s so good at picking spots to take shots where even an INT doesn’t hurt terribly this season that it kind of makes me chuckle when people just talk about his total INT number.  Not all ints are created equal

 

hes giving his guys shots to make plays for pretty low risk on the majority of his ints it feels like 

Bills had the worst defense in the league for that stretch you mentioned…that jags game decimated the team until Douglas got acclimated and righted the ship a little bit 
 

send Lamar’s number 1 ranked defense on a 1 month vacation and he’d have less wins too 

When did the bills have the worst defense n the league? Our defense gave up 6 less yards/ game than the Ravens thsi year. 

[julian]

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Yea which I also find kind of strange…Josh was pretty good in 2 of those 3 losses.  I think it’s the turnover narrative working against him more than anything 

As long as the media starts every conversation, every day with Allen has a turnover problem he’ll probably never win the MVP. The voters are listening to these hacks everyday, even when Allen is awesome they’ll emphasize the INT, even after his performance yesterday with no turnovers the idiots on TV reminding people how this is what Allen could be he he just doesn’t turn the ball over.

 

 It’s non stop and I don’t expect it to change.

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

When did the bills have the worst defense n the league? Our defense gave up 6 less yards/ game than the Ravens thsi year. 

6 less yards per game on D is not even worth mentioning, 6 less points would be… but that’s not the case

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

When did the bills have the worst defense n the league? Our defense gave up 6 less yards/ game than the Ravens thsi year. 

Jags game-bengals game we were dead last in defensive dvoa.  Cut out that stretch and our defense was fantastic this year 

 

the two outright worst offenses in the league by far marched up and down the field against us and we were fortunate the giants didn’t come away with more points…I think that’s why that stat gets hidden a bit because on paper we only gave up 9 to the giants but it should’ve been 20+ to jags,giants,pats, bengals going 0 for 4 on late game stops to give us a shot to win 

Edited January 16 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[billsfanfrom83]

10 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

It's only on QBs.  Here, look at Diggs-not there.  It IS a QB specific stat.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DiggSt00.htm

 

Wins and loses count for the coaches we don't talk about how many wins a qb needs to get into canton

[Bookie Man]

Mahomes MVP year he had 21 turnovers. This year Josh had 21. 

[T master]

I don't know how they figure that out . They only thing Lamar did was throw less INT's but Josh dwarfed him in most other categories and is just as big a runner as Lamar .

 

Add to it that Josh brought the Bills from .500 and won his last 5 to make it into the play offs & is now onto the second round how can INT's be the determining factor ? I don't care if Josh doesn't win this award all of us in B/lo know who the MVP is !!

 

GO BILLS !!! 

[Albany,n.y.]

19 minutes ago, billsfanfrom83 said:

Wins and loses count for the coaches we don't talk about how many wins a qb needs to get into canton

You may not, but HOF voters certainly do.  

[YattaOkasan]

57 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I'm sure all the fans in Baltimore would agree with you.

 

The simple question to answer is if Josh Allen is significantly more valuable, why did he manage to lose two more games and likely had been three if last game mattered to Ravens.  Take the Denver, NE, Jax games.  If the Bills had won two of them good chance then Allen would be the MVP.

 

38 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Agree with that part, but also add in third part, number of wins.  Think it may be different too if Bills had lost 3 games instead to KC, Dallas, and Miami  good playoff teams instead of Jax, NE, and Denver . Add to that the Int's Allen through in those games hurt his chances.

Josh left the field in the 4th quarter with a lead and less than 2 minutes in 3 of our 6 losses.  Wins are a team stat period.  Thats why he has less wins.  The ravens have a better team; their receivers get more open, more defensive EPA.  Josh has contributed more and it shows in the numbers.  Jackson is great but he gets a ton of support from the team that Josh doesnt.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

37 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Yea which I also find kind of strange…Josh was pretty good in 2 of those 3 losses.  I think it’s the turnover narrative working against him more than anything 

 

Yeah that's likely a big part of it and many are really bad throws into double coverage.  Even in the final Miami game the 1st one was like what is he thinking. and the 2nd one had a guy open right away in flat which would have been enough for 1st down, but didn't take then throws int in endzone.

[Matt_In_NH]

For non QB's we should not be too surprised but just want to point out you have to talk about specific years a guy should have won it over the guy who actually did win it.  MVP is not a lifetime achievement award meant for one of the greatest players.   Without looking Rice did have a year with like 23 TD's or something in an era where that seem impossible, probably equivalent to a 30 TD season by a WR today.  I bet Montana or Young actually won it that year.

 

Actually I could not help but looking, in 1987 he was second to Elway.....  He was 2nd 3 times and 3rd twice.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/awards_1987.htm

Edited January 16 by Matt_In_NH

[Southern_Bills]

The man can't get enough respect for a pro bowl, much less an MVP.

 

They have basically told Allen until you win a Lombardi you are trash. He has to do twice as much as any other player to get respect. 

[BullBuchanan]

Allen had big total stats this year but had multiple games, including several in a row where he was outright horrible. Just three game ago, he was the worst player on the field for 3 quarters of football before  flipping his shirt inside out and becoming superman.  You can't do that stuff and win MVP, no matter how great your collective stats are.

[416BillsFan]

Barry Sanders having to share it with Brett Favre still irks me.

[billsfanfrom83]

On 1/16/2024 at 10:59 AM, Albany,n.y. said:

You may not, but HOF voters certainly do.  

So how many games must a qb win to be considered for the HOF the only games they care about is superbowl wins and not even that really matters no qb has been denied entry bc they had HOF stats but didn't win enough if that was the case Kelly wouldn't be in at 0-4 in superbowls 

[LABILLBACKER]

On 1/15/2024 at 8:10 PM, LeGOATski said:

You have to end it at the regular season. It's a regular season award.

I understand that, I just personally feel it should be a full season award. Not a regular season award.  If you want to see a complete configuration of a player,  include tougher playoff games. 

[KDIGGZ]

Lamar is MVP based on what stats besides W-L record? They should just change the name of the MVP to "QB on the best team" award

[Albany,n.y.]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

Lamar is MVP based on what stats besides W-L record? They should just change the name of the MVP to "QB on the best team" award

Considering the words MOST VALUABLE, a QB has to lead his team to victories in order to be considered.  No sub .500 team's QB will ever win MVP because obviously, if he was most valuable, they would have won more games.   Think of the Ravens without Lamar Jackson or the Bills without Josh, neither of those teams would be playing this weekend without their guy.  You have to be a difference maker-lead your team to wins they wouldn't without you-to be considered MVP.  Lamar fits that requirement in Baltimore and since they won the most games, and he had a much lower turnover rate than his competition, he'll win MVP.   

 

Too bad you don't like the reality of MVP voting, but there's nothing complaining about it on a message board will do to change it.  The writers give huge consideration to victories in MVP voting & don't care if you don't.  

[Albany,n.y.]

2 hours ago, billsfanfrom83 said:

So how many games must a qb win to be considered for the HOF the only games they care about is superbowl wins and not even that really matters no qb has been denied entry bc they had HOF stats but didn't win enough if that was the case Kelly wouldn't be in at 0-4 in superbowls 

Show me a QB who had a losing record who didn't win a championship who is in the HOF.   I can't think of any recent ones, and the only QB I can think of off the top of my head who lost more than he won is Joe Namath, who won what might be the most significant Super Bowl of all time.  

[Chicken Boo]

People saying the award is about more than wins.  Well, it's about more than stats as well.  

 

It was just 3 weeks ago, Josh went 15-30 169 yards 1 Int against a 4-12 Patriots team.  

[billsfanfrom83]

29 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Show me a QB who had a losing record who didn't win a championship who is in the HOF.   I can't think of any recent ones, and the only QB I can think of off the top of my head who lost more than he won is Joe Namath, who won what might be the most significant Super Bowl of all time.  

If he has a losing record it goes with out saying he didn't win a championship all I was saying that a qb doesn't need a certain amounts of wins to be in the HOF  there are alot more things to decide on a qb getting in than just how many games he won the winning records are more important for coaches to get in 

[KDIGGZ]

40 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Considering the words MOST VALUABLE, a QB has to lead his team to victories in order to be considered.  No sub .500 team's QB will ever win MVP because obviously, if he was most valuable, they would have won more games.   Think of the Ravens without Lamar Jackson or the Bills without Josh, neither of those teams would be playing this weekend without their guy.  You have to be a difference maker-lead your team to wins they wouldn't without you-to be considered MVP.  Lamar fits that requirement in Baltimore and since they won the most games, and he had a much lower turnover rate than his competition, he'll win MVP.   

 

Too bad you don't like the reality of MVP voting, but there's nothing complaining about it on a message board will do to change it.  The writers give huge consideration to victories in MVP voting & don't care if you don't.  

The Ravens didn't have Lamar and Huntley did really well actually and made the Pro Bowl. I would say the Ravens would still be in the playoffs with any other top 20 QB.

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I understand that, I just personally feel it should be a full season award. Not a regular season award.  If you want to see a complete configuration of a player,  include tougher playoff games. 

The complete configuration of a player will bare itself out if that player gets season MVP, then SB MVP other some other award.

 

I know the results almost never happen this way, but a player could theoretically get season MVP and his team barely misses the playoffs. Or his team loses in the first round. All players get to be included in the MVP consideration. For that reason, you can't put any weight on the playoffs because not everyone gets there.

[Albany,n.y.]

3 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

The Ravens didn't have Lamar and Huntley did really well actually and made the Pro Bowl. I would say the Ravens would still be in the playoffs with any other top 20 QB.

Pro Bowl 🤪

They lost 3 of their last 4 games with Jackson out & the one playoff game. 1-4 last 5 without Jackson. 

Give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.   

Edited January 19 by Albany,n.y.

[KDIGGZ]

16 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Pro Bowl 🤪

They lost 3 of their last 4 games with Jackson out & the one playoff game. 1-4 last 5 without Jackson. 

Give it up, you're embarrassing yourself.   

You are embarrassing yourself posting on a football forum trying to show up other people telling them they are embarrassing themselves lol 😂

 

We can have honest discussions without personal attacks right?

 

My point is Lamar isn't the most valuable player in all of football if his team can make the playoffs without him and his backup can make the pro bowl. It's a reasonable take. I don't think Purdy is the most valuable player on his own offense let alone the league and he could be interchangeable with about 20 other guys and SF would still be the best NFC team. Those are my opinions.

[billsfan89]

On 1/15/2024 at 7:59 PM, RiotAct said:

Rice or Moss never won it?  That’s pretty insane

Rice is very crazy, Moss is more understandable as most of his prime was spent in the 2000’s when the MVP award was morphing into the best QB award.

[Albany,n.y.]

Just now, KDIGGZ said:

You are embarrassing yourself posting on a football forum trying to show up other people telling them they are embarrassing themselves lol 😂

 

We can have honest discussions without personal attacks right?

 

My point is Lamar isn't the most valuable player in all of football if his team can make the playoffs without him and his backup can make the pro bowl. It's a reasonable take. I don't think Purdy is the most valuable player on his own offense let alone the league and he could be interchangeable with about 20 other guys and SF would still be the best NFC team. Those are my opinions.

It wasn't a personal attack, I was trying to help you stop embarrassing yourself, but you won't listen.  Please stop with the ridiculous Pro Bowl nonsense.  Nobody took Huntley's Pro Bowl appearance last year as a serious indication of his ability as one of the best QBs in the league.  He was a replacement when others dropped out.  The Pro Bowl selection is considered a joke with all the dropouts.  Without Lamar there is no way Baltimore wins 13 games & is the #1 seed.  Just making the playoffs vs #1 seed is a big difference.  Purdy isn't going to be MVP & you're right that he could be replaced, but Purdy & SF has nothing to do with Lamar & the Ravens.  

 

You might not think Lamar is MVP, but you know who does?  The voters.  

[Rigotz]

Here's a list of guys who won Coach of The Year the past 15 years:

- Brian Daboll

- Mike Vrabel

- Matt Nagy

- Jason Garrett

- Ron Rivera 

- Ron Rivera (again)

- Marvin Lewis

- Mike Smith

 

Swear to god. Look it up.

All of these awards are a joke.

It's usually a popularity contest for who is the flashiest... so, Josh will win one. Plenty of time.

 

[KDIGGZ]

13 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

It wasn't a personal attack, I was trying to help you stop embarrassing yourself, but you won't listen.  Please stop with the ridiculous Pro Bowl nonsense.  Nobody took Huntley's Pro Bowl appearance last year as a serious indication of his ability as one of the best QBs in the league.  He was a replacement when others dropped out.  The Pro Bowl selection is considered a joke with all the dropouts.  Without Lamar there is no way Baltimore wins 13 games & is the #1 seed.  Just making the playoffs vs #1 seed is a big difference.  Purdy isn't going to be MVP & you're right that he could be replaced, but Purdy & SF has nothing to do with Lamar & the Ravens.  

 

You might not think Lamar is MVP, but you know who does?  The voters.  

The pro bowl indicates that Huntley played at a high enough level to be considered good, not that he's the best of the best or starting QB material even. The point was he was able to fill in well enough that everyone was like wow look what basically any fill in the blank mobile QB can do on the Ravens. No team is going to lose their starting QB and still be #1 but it says something that even with a backup QB the Ravens were good enough to make the playoffs. So how amazing is Lamar as an MVP if he only gets his team a few more wins? They are good regardless. If someone is the MVP and he doesn't play their team should be instantly terrible. Plus show me the stats that says Lamar is a good QB. I've never seen them. How many passing yards does he have? TD's? I don't get it

[Albany,n.y.]

4 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

Here's a list of guys who won Coach of The Year the past 15 years:

- Brian Daboll

- Mike Vrabel

- Matt Nagy

- Jason Garrett

- Ron Rivera 

- Ron Rivera (again)

- Marvin Lewis

- Mike Smith

 

Swear to god. Look it up.

All of these awards are a joke.

It's usually a popularity contest for who is the flashiest... so, Josh will win one. Plenty of time.

 

Unfortunately, coach of the year usually goes to someone who had a winning record with a team the pundits thought would suck.  Many times it's because of an easy schedule resulting from the prior year's failure.  A lot of time this year's coach of the year is next year's bum.  

 

I still can't believe that Daboll got it for 2022 over Shanahan, who won with a rookie Mr Irrelevant, going from 3rd in 2021 to 13 wins & the division in 2022.  .