Giants @ Bills Postgame thread

[BillnutinHouston]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:58 PM, Rocky Landing said:

Quinten Morris with the clutch reception tho...

 

Nice catch, but the throw was ridiculous.  Q was not open when Allen released it.

 

Edit: see 2:20 of this video.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by BillnutinHouston

[FireChans]

29 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Did anyone see these snap counts?

 

Oliver in on 87% of snaps?! Wow.

 

Diggs outsnaps Davis for the first time since I can remember. 
 

Harty a measley 16%…waste.

 

Edwards in on 13% of snaps…that’s 8 plays with 6 OL. 

 

26 minutes ago, arcane said:

There is no way Ed holds up playing 17 games like this. We need to figure out 1T.

Earn that contract young man.

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I get that and it comes with validity. However, others past don't really equate to what McD can, can't, and will do. It's all pure speculation with differing variables. 

 

Some important factors to consider. McD has Josh Allen in his prime. He arguably the top three QBs in the game. The other too QBs are Mahomes and Burrow. Low and behold they both have made SB appearances and one has multiple rings. Meanwhile, Allen has watched them at home while his current coach gives away games, had his team flat and unprepared. Losing is one thing giving games away, being out coached, not being prepared, etc...is just flat out unacceptable. The saving grace that really makes things less transparent is his regular season records. It's basically second to none and very impressive. Hard to let such a good thing go. 

 

However, sometimes it's prudent to move on to achieve a higher goal. Not an easy decision at all with McD. I'd say most fans are satisfied with his success even if his failures in the playoffs are obvious. In effect, he gets a free pass or at least the benefit of the doubt. A redo to get things right. It's much easier to stay the course here. 

 

I'd much prefer the Bills go in a different direction. I think the McD reign has played it's course. A great ride but it's time to trade in the reliable Camry for the innovative Tesla. Sure it's track record is more unknown then the Camry. 

 

I'd also note that Philly made a big move hiring a young innovative coach that paid huge dividends immediately. If nothing else it shows it can be done. 

 

This season looks quite a bit like the others. The Bills are a top 5 team in the AFC will a likelihood of making the playoffs. A likelihood of another disappointing playoff exit due to several variables which includes coaching and scheme. 

 

Lastly, I'd like to point out the change of regimes shouldn't be discouraged ir not considered. As long as Allen remains on the team a new coach basically just has to ride that horse. However, all horse bettors know the importance of a good to great jockey. Sometimes a jockey change is exactly what the horse needs. I'd say this analogy is 109% applicable here. 

 

So McD gets held extra accountable because he has an elite QB and hasn’t made the SB….  Yet he’s only been eliminated by the other 2 elite QBs.  

[Low Positive]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So McD gets held extra accountable because he has an elite QB and hasn’t made the SB….  Yet he’s only been eliminated by the other 2 elite QBs.  

And he claps.

[eSJayDee]

5 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Maybe 20 years ago.  60 yard fgs are the 50/50 of todays NFL.  Bass was 3 of 3 before the Giants game this year. 11 of 15 career before Giants.

 

This chart is 3 years old.

 

Where'd you get that chart?  Almost 20% from 80 yds?  For that matter, 30% from 70 when the longest FG in the NFL was only 66????

[Scott7975]

Just now, eSJayDee said:

Where'd you get that chart?  Almost 20% from 80 yds?  For that matter, 30% from 70 when the longest FG in the NFL was only 66????

 

Honestly, I don't remember.  Yes, I also saw that but it doesn't matter.  You can google and find the same data.... 50ish range field goals are not 50/50 anymore.  They haven't been for 20 years.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

Mahomes runs more than Allen this year. Is that a knock on Mahomes or on his offense this season?

 

He has about 50 more yards with 7 more carries.

 

Is that really an argument. Just looks to me like he scrambled a few more times than Allen.

 

So is someone saying that is an element to his game that Allen is lacking or does not use when needed?

 

Mahomes scrambles and Allen does as well. Not the same as saying designed runs where Dabs would pull lead blockers and Allen would follow and get lit up.

 

Usually with a fumble too.

 

 

 

 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, WideNine said:

 

He has about 50 more yards with 7 more carries.

 

Is that really an argument. Just looks to me like he scrambled a few more times than Allen.

 

So is someone saying that is an element to his game that Allen is lacking or does not use when needed?

 

Mahomes scrambles and Allen does as well. Not the same as saying designed runs where Dabs would pull lead blockers and Allen would follow and get lit up.

 

Usually with a fumble too.

 

 

 

 

Allen is clearly being told not to scramble either my dude. His rushing attempts have been cut in half.  Do you think we were calling designed QB sweeps 3 times a game last year?

[newcam2012]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

So McD gets held extra accountable because he has an elite QB and hasn’t made the SB….  Yet he’s only been eliminated by the other 2 elite QBs.  

McD should be held accountable. 13 seconds and the Cinci thrashing is a great start. Those are no small hiccups. Go back further and you will see blown chances vs the Texans and Jags. Take closer look and you will see they were inches from losing to a Philips Rivers led Colts team. Take a closer look and you will see ample times where he's been out coached by a large margin. He's 4-5 in the playoffs as the Bills coach. That's a whooping 44% win percentage. 

 

I guess people will continue to refuse to look at the facts. Continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Continue to make excuses. Continue to wait for a different results. I've waited long enough. I don't see a McD magic wand that suddenly gets the team over the top. Do you?  It's very evident that change is needed. We will disagree to disagree. 

[WideNine]

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Allen is clearly being told not to scramble either my dude. His rushing attempts have been cut in half.  Do you think we were calling designed QB sweeps 3 times a game last year?

 

Well can you blame them if they did?

 

McD looked none too happy on that read option where Allen nearly got wishboned trying to hurdle Marcus Epps.

 

Problem with Allen and the read option is even if he reads a defender committed to his gap he doesn't give up the ball. He wants to try to run over that guy. 

 

If we want a longer career for our QB he is going to have to learn not to take unnecessary hits. That is different than not scrambling when there is open green in front of him.

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by WideNine

[newcam2012]

32 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Well can you blame them?

 

McD looked none too happy on that read option where Allen nearly got wishboned trying to hurdle Marcus Epps.

 

Problem with Allen and the read option is even if he reads a defender committed to his gap he doesn't give up the ball. He wants to try to run over that guy. 

 

If we want a longer career for our QB he is going to have to learn not to take unnecessary hits. That is different than not scrambling when there is open green in front of him.

 

 

 

Flawed logic here. Allen has shown the ability to take a hit. Yes he does need to not take unnecessary hits. I believe that he can and should be more prudent. That doesn't mean you cut him off at the knees. Let Josh cook. You just don't take away a player's major asset and skill set. That's a recipe to lose not win. You play assertively not passively. Goes back to this coaching staff doesn't utilize its players best asset nor to the best of their ability. Cook last year and Kincaid and others this year. 

 

Following your logic, Allen shouldn't pass the ball. Why? That's the most logical and statistically proven way Allen is going to get hurt. Maybe it's best he just hands off the ball. 

[Hsker4life]

16 hours ago, Dopey said:

The "Best" QB in the league makes that throw. That was a crap throw. At least admit that part. If you can't, that's on you.

yes it was, tho. a crap throw.

Screen name checks out. 

[WideNine]

31 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Flawed logic here. Allen has shown the ability to take a hit. Yes he does need to not take unnecessary hits. I believe that he can and should be more prudent. That doesn't mean you cut him off at the knees. Let Josh cook. You just don't take away a player's major asset and skill set. That's a recipe to lose not win. You play assertively not passively. Goes back to this coaching staff doesn't utilize its players best asset nor to the best of their ability. Cook last year and Kincaid and others this year. 

 

Following your logic, Allen shouldn't pass the ball. Why? That's the most logical and statistically proven way Allen is going to get hurt. Maybe it's best he just hands off the ball. 

 

Folks keep trying to manufacture this narrative that Allen cannot change plays or go off script... he is cut off at the knees etc..

 

Have you considered he may be trying to play in a way that limits turnovers and unnecessary hits on his own?

 

Not even worth debating when there is this much speculation.

 

 

 

[RunTheBall]

13 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

I agree with most of your post especially the Allen running part, but I heavily disagree with the first bolded and am confused about the second one.

 

Nobody in the league blows out opponents more often and more than the Bills. Last 3 years we have like +600 point differential and 2nd best Chiefs are at +400 or so. How can you say that we never blow out competition?

 

To the second bolded, did you confuse some games or are you really saying that Dorsey "absolutely sucked" in Dolphins game?

Good points.

 

To the first, it was my own BBFS that got the best of me. In the pre-game thread, I mentioned this is exactly the type of Billsy game we tend to sht the bed with, and it almost happened. The key word being almost - in the past Bills lose this game 8/10 times. Maybe pulling this one off will give them some confidence in close games. In my over 40 years of fandom, Buffalo tends to play down to its competition more often than not. We also play up to the competition though, so there is that.

 

To the second, you are right Dorsey had a good game against the Dolphins. In fact his first 3 games were solidly called. My concern is same as last year. As soon as teams get a little tape on him and make adjustments, he takes way too long to make any of his own.  I’m also very concerned they over-coached Josh about his running. Yes, we all want him to take fewer hits but he can take the yards that are there, or use his legs in a “break glass in case of emergency” sense, and he’s not doing that. A huge part of Josh’s game is his ability to run. If you take that away and other teams stop worrying or gameplanning against it, he will be less effective.

 

 

[NewEra]

7 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

McD should be held accountable. 13 seconds and the Cinci thrashing is a great start. Those are no small hiccups. Go back further and you will see blown chances vs the Texans and Jags. Take closer look and you will see they were inches from losing to a Philips Rivers led Colts team. Take a closer look and you will see ample times where he's been out coached by a large margin. He's 4-5 in the playoffs as the Bills coach. That's a whooping 44% win percentage. 

 

I guess people will continue to refuse to look at the facts. Continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Continue to make excuses. Continue to wait for a different results. I've waited long enough. I don't see a McD magic wand that suddenly gets the team over the top. Do you?  It's very evident that change is needed. We will disagree to disagree. 

I’m talking on one point in this case, while you’re moving the goalposts and talking about something else. 
 

I’ve said several times that I’d like to go with an offensive HC if this season ends in a bad way.  
 

 

 

[4merper4mer]

7 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

McD should be held accountable. 13 seconds and the Cinci thrashing is a great start. Those are no small hiccups. Go back further and you will see blown chances vs the Texans and Jags. Take closer look and you will see they were inches from losing to a Philips Rivers led Colts team. Take a closer look and you will see ample times where he's been out coached by a large margin. He's 4-5 in the playoffs as the Bills coach. That's a whooping 44% win percentage. 

 

I guess people will continue to refuse to look at the facts. Continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Continue to make excuses. Continue to wait for a different results. I've waited long enough. I don't see a McD magic wand that suddenly gets the team over the top. Do you?  It's very evident that change is needed. We will disagree to disagree. 

Go get Sean Payton amirite?

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Folks keep trying to manufacture this narrative that Allen cannot change plays or go off script... he is cut off at the knees etc..

 

Have you considered he may be trying to play in a way that limits turnovers and unnecessary hits on his own?

 

Not even worth debating when there is this much speculation.

 

 

 

Oh it's worth debating and talking about. 

 

I mean it's obvious that the Bills haven't called any RPOs. I think you can count on one hand how many RPOs have been called in six games. Thus, I think it's reasonable to conclude the Bills have shifted their desire to have Allen run. 

 

Also, we have years of samples where Allen is a willing runner. To imply Allen doesn't want to run just seems off to me. 

 

Of course Allen doesn't want to commit turnovers and take unnecessary hits. But to imply this is a major reason why he's not running seems off too. It's just not who Allen is. 

 

I think it's plausible and realistic think the Bills organization has emphatically limited Allen's ability to run. I have a difficult time thinking it's Allen who doesn't want to run. Thus, he absolutely is being cut off at the knees. In essence, Allen has became more one dimensional which isn't a good thing. 

 

In short, you may be correct. It's not worth debating because what you are suggesting is borderline ludicrous. 

5 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Go get Sean Payton amirite?

Payton wasn't the only option the Bills had. 

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’m talking on one point in this case, while you’re moving the goalposts and talking about something else. 
 

I’ve said several times that I’d like to go with an offensive HC if this season ends in a bad way.  
 

 

 

It's one year too late...I doubt McD is leading this team to the AFC championship game. 

[4merper4mer]

6 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Folks keep trying to manufacture this narrative that Allen cannot change plays or go off script... he is cut off at the knees etc..

 

Have you considered he may be trying to play in a way that limits turnovers and unnecessary hits on his own?

 

Not even worth debating when there is this much speculation.

 

 

 

There is a rule here that it can not be insinuated that Josh Allen ever did anything wrong.  It’s the 17th rail.  Don’t touch it or you’ll get hurt.  For example if an incomplete pass is thrown in the dirt but it is physically possible to be caught the proper response is to point out that Knox and Davis must be cut.  Both.  If it is thrown to Knox you must kill Davis too.  Also the emperor  who threw the worm burner is well dressed and beyond criticism.  This goes to coaches too.  Sugar rush Josh with bad results  = Dorsey’s fault.  Cautious Josh with bad results =  Dorsey’s fault.  Sugar rush Josh with good results = Allen’s brilliance  cautious Josh with good results = Allen’s brilliance..

[NewEra]

39 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Oh it's worth debating and talking about. 

 

I mean it's obvious that the Bills haven't called any RPOs. I think you can count on one hand how many RPOs have been called in six games. Thus, I think it's reasonable to conclude the Bills have shifted their desire to have Allen run. 

 

Also, we have years of samples where Allen is a willing runner. To imply Allen doesn't want to run just seems off to me. 

 

Of course Allen doesn't want to commit turnovers and take unnecessary hits. But to imply this is a major reason why he's not running seems off too. It's just not who Allen is. 

 

I think it's plausible and realistic think the Bills organization has emphatically limited Allen's ability to run. I have a difficult time thinking it's Allen who doesn't want to run. Thus, he absolutely is being cut off at the knees. In essence, Allen has became more one dimensional which isn't a good thing. 

 

In short, you may be correct. It's not worth debating because what you are suggesting is borderline ludicrous. 

Payton wasn't the only option the Bills had. 

It's one year too late...I doubt McD is leading this team to the AFC championship game. 

Lots can happen from now until January.  I don’t think you felt that way after 3 qtrs of the Miami game….. 

 

then we lost tre, Milano and daquan.  Things can change quickly.  Just like things can change quickly for KC, Philly,SF, Miami, Cinci and Detroit.  Let’s wait and see which injuries occur between now and January.  If those teams suffer key injuries and we can get Milano and or daquan back, we’ll be just fine.  It just so happens that none of those teams have suffered any potentially season ending injuries…..while we’ve suffered 3 massive blows to our roster.

 

that has nothing to do with Mcdermott

[Bermuda Triangle]

Was Davis down prior to the fumble?

 

 

[Franco_92]

1 hour ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Was Davis down prior to the fumble?

 

 

You can't use still shots to analyze anything in football...in the video it is clear the ball moves before the knee is down. Clear as day in fact

[Bermuda Triangle]

38 minutes ago, arcane said:

You can't use still shots to analyze anything in football...in the video it is clear the ball moves before the knee is down. Clear as day in fact

I didn't see the replay.  Would you happen to have it?

[Franco_92]

Just now, Bermuda Triangle said:

I didn't see the replay.  Would you happen to have it?

Nah but people talked about it on this board and posted it yesterday I believe, it was trivial and clear. Search Twitter for it 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

You can't use still shots to analyze anything in football...in the video it is clear the ball moves before the knee is down. Clear as day in fact

 

After Gabe gets punched in the face...how was this dude not ejected?

 

 

[Nitro]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:31 AM, Mango said:

This also happened under Daboll. 

That is the maddening part!

[Gregg]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

I’m talking on one point in this case, while you’re moving the goalposts and talking about something else. 
 

I’ve said several times that I’d like to go with an offensive HC if this season ends in a bad way.  
 

 

 

 

Lions OC Ben Johnson would be an interesting choice if the Bills decide to move on from McDermott.

[NewEra]

9 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Lions OC Ben Johnson would be an interesting choice if the Bills decide to move on from McDermott.

I agree.  If we don’t win the Super Bowl this year, I’m all for hiring Ben Johnson

[Tierlifer]

32 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I agree.  If we don’t win the Super Bowl this year, I’m all for hiring Ben Johnson

Hopefully he doesn’t test positive for roids this time if he does get hired. 

[stuvian]

we have a way of playing down to the level of our opponent

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, stuvian said:

we have a way of playing down to the level of our opponent

That’s been true on offense for sure. The defense has been pretty consistent through six games. Although the London game was frustrating on both sides, especially the Jags game clinching last drive….which I’ll chalk up to exhaustion.