Israel and the Slaughter in Gaza

[Andy1]

23 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Michelle Goldberg is a liberal NY Times columnist. I generally don't agree with her columns. But this one is very solid and fair. It is not Twitter/X. You need to actually read a few paragraphs (a lost art around here) instead of an inflammatory 200 character characterization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/opinion/israel-war-gaza-hospital-danger.html

 

Of course, I’d read Israel’s insistence that an errant Islamic Jihad rocket had caused the explosion at the hospital, but I didn’t put much stock in it, because in the past when Israel accidentally killed civilians, it has blamed Palestinians for the deaths. In May of last year, the Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed while covering an Israeli raid on the Jenin refugee camp. Israeli officials said she was shot either by a Palestinian or by an Israeli soldier aiming at a Palestinian gunman. A New York Times investigation, however, contradicted the official Israeli line. It found that the bullet that killed Abu Akleh was fired from the direction of an Israeli military convoy and that “there were no armed Palestinians near her when she was shot.”

A few months later, during another round of Israeli bombing of Gaza, five Palestinian boys were killed in a cemetery. Initially, Israeli officials blamed a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket for the deaths. But as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported, an army inquiry found they were actually killed by an Israeli airstrike. With the hospital explosion, it seemed history was repeating itself on a larger and more tragic scale.

Perhaps it was, just not in the way I thought. As I write this, it looks increasingly likely that Israel was correct about an Islamic Jihad rocket hitting Al-Ahli hospital. That, at least, is what both early American intelligence and a number of independent experts have found. If their analysis holds up, it means the best analogy for this world-convulsing event is not the killings of five boys in Gaza last year. It is the myth of a massacre at the Jenin refugee camp in 2002.

The first casualty of war is the truth. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

24 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Michelle Goldberg is a liberal NY Times columnist. I generally don't agree with her columns. But this one is very solid and fair. It is not Twitter/X. You need to actually read a few paragraphs (a lost art around here) instead of an inflammatory 200 character characterization.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/20/opinion/israel-war-gaza-hospital-danger.html

 

Of course, I’d read Israel’s insistence that an errant Islamic Jihad rocket had caused the explosion at the hospital, but I didn’t put much stock in it, because in the past when Israel accidentally killed civilians, it has blamed Palestinians for the deaths. In May of last year, the Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was shot and killed while covering an Israeli raid on the Jenin refugee camp. Israeli officials said she was shot either by a Palestinian or by an Israeli soldier aiming at a Palestinian gunman. A New York Times investigation, however, contradicted the official Israeli line. It found that the bullet that killed Abu Akleh was fired from the direction of an Israeli military convoy and that “there were no armed Palestinians near her when she was shot.”

A few months later, during another round of Israeli bombing of Gaza, five Palestinian boys were killed in a cemetery. Initially, Israeli officials blamed a misfired Islamic Jihad rocket for the deaths. But as the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported, an army inquiry found they were actually killed by an Israeli airstrike. With the hospital explosion, it seemed history was repeating itself on a larger and more tragic scale.

Perhaps it was, just not in the way I thought. As I write this, it looks increasingly likely that Israel was correct about an Islamic Jihad rocket hitting Al-Ahli hospital. That, at least, is what both early American intelligence and a number of independent experts have found. If their analysis holds up, it means the best analogy for this world-convulsing event is not the killings of five boys in Gaza last year. It is the myth of a massacre at the Jenin refugee camp in 2002.

 

The article continues, analyzing a "Jenin (West Bank) massacre" by the Israeli IDF that probably never happened.

A NY Times investigation would be no more or less believable than an investigation completed by Israel, or for that matter the US.  The phrase “austere scholar” comes to mind.  
 

If the argument is that the State spins things, sure, obviously.   Really, what player in the game is beyond reproach?  
 

Meanwhile, the two sides play who can wipe whom off the face of the earth first? 

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

Meanwhile, the two sides play who can wipe whom off the face of the earth first? 

 

I know who I'm rootin' for.

[Tiberius]

Time is a dreat thinkener of things

 

--Abe Lincoln 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

10 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

Hamas is in there somewhere I guess. 🙄

 

For having such a technologically advanced and well trained military, Israel only ever seems to use a hammer.

That is how I see it to. There is no scalpel here.

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Here are a few I found enlightening.

 

 

 

This is a very complex issue that dates back literally 1,300 years ago.

 

Best not to take a side based on the account of a 10 minute YouTube video.

[Justice]

14 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Over the years, decades, I haven’t really understood the complexities of the Palestinian- Israel conflict. I recently watched several YouTube documentaries on the history of the West Bank. My only reaction was shock and disbelief. The Israli government policy of supporting the settlements and regulating, through military force, every aspect of Palestinian lives there is crazy. The Jewish settlers see nothing wrong with expanding the settlements. If, like me, you were ignorant about this issue, educate yourself. Unfortunately, I don’t see how this conflict will ever be resolved. 

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

[John from Riverside]

22 minutes ago, Justice said:

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

One of the biggest problems that we have in America is people don’t get out of their own comfort, zones, and see how the rest of the world lives
 

Now that can be expensive so when people don’t have a lot of money, I understand that and not everybody is suited for military life where you can get it for free

 

It’s good to see how other people live. It makes you appreciate the United States that much more and you’re able to take a little bit of culture back.

 

In my case, it was extremely helpful when I got out of the military I immediately went to work for a University that recruits these kids from these countries understanding their customs and concerns. So far away from home is very helpful.

[Justice]

16 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

One of the biggest problems that we have in America is people don’t get out of their own comfort, zones, and see how the rest of the world lives
 

Now that can be expensive so when people don’t have a lot of money, I understand that and not everybody is suited for military life where you can get it for free

 

It’s good to see how other people live. It makes you appreciate the United States that much more and you’re able to take a little bit of culture back.

 

In my case, it was extremely helpful when I got out of the military I immediately went to work for a University that recruits these kids from these countries understanding their customs and concerns. So far away from home is very helpful.

Me being born in the states and going back to Israel and Palestine every few years gives me a unique perspective of the situation. 
 

When you’re there it’s not hard to see how much both sides love their country. And that love will never fade on either side. They need to learn how to live together in harmony or suffer the consequences. There are awful consequences in both winning and losing this conflict. 

[Andy1]

49 minutes ago, Justice said:

If you don’t mind me asking but what compelled you to look into for yourself? I wish more people would. 

For decades I’ve watched 30 second reports on the evening news about violence erupting in Israel. American news presents the Israel side of the conflict - understandable now after the horrific violence committed by Hamas. I’m a curious person who tries to understand the world. YouTube is my gateway to the world, to lands I will never be able to visit. It’s not hard to learn, if you want to. 
 

Im no expert. I’m just an ignorant American trying to understand a problem no one has a solution for. We seem to be entering a new chapter in this conflict. The idea of peace seems to be gone for now due to the actions of Hamas. Hopefully it doesn’t become a wider regional war. 

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Here are a few I found enlightening.

 

Thanks man. This gives me a LOT BETTER understanding of what's been going on over there.

[Tiberius]

This is insane, starving 2 million people 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Good job Biden admin, and everyone else involved in getting this started 

 

 

[Doc]

15 hours ago, Andy1 said:

The first casualty of war is the truth. 

 

The NYT must have been at war decades ago...

[sherpa]

Simply reflecting on this horrible situation.

Again, I've never supported Trump and never will, but when his name is constantly brought up by certain individuals in threads that really don't have to do with him, I note the following:

 

There have been a number of accusations made against him by posts here that he "almost got us into a war with Iran."

I never paid attention to them, but eventually I asked how, and the response was how he called off an offensive operation against Iran.

Puzzled, but not surprised at the response.

 

Now, we are in a war with Iran.

Make no mistake, this thing by Hamas, some additional limited activity from Hezbollah, and now the latest missile and drone  intercepts by US Naval forces from Iran's most recent  franchise, he Houthi rebels in Yemen suggest that we are indeed in a war with Iran.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthi rebels are in fact, Iran.

 

We have two carrier battle groups positioned because of this, and have now been asked to contribute a fortune in aid.

Yep. Is is indeed, a war.

Edited October 21, 2023 by sherpa

[Tommy Callahan]

Anyone else see this.  Nailed it on levels 

 

Old bill is going to town on the ivy leagues 

 

https://youtu.be/fMF0bser1aM?si=8ePlTkTCYjLjmGbB

Edited October 21, 2023 by Tommy Callahan

[Unforgiven]

COTTON: BIDEN SUPPLEMENTAL SPENDING PROPOSAL IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Caroline Tabler or James Arnold (202) 224-2353
October 20, 2023

Cotton: Biden Supplemental Spending Proposal is Dead on Arrival

Washington, D.C. — Senator Tom Cotton (R-Arkansas) released the following statement after President Biden released his proposed supplemental spending bill:

“President Biden’s slush fund proposal is dead on arrival, just like his budgets. We will not spend, for example, $3.5 billion to address the ‘potential needs of Gazans,’ essentially functioning as a resupply line for Hamas terrorists.

“We will also not spend $11.8 billion to fund the Ukrainian government’s own non-war spending, such as funding retirement pensions for Ukrainian government employees. Nor will we spend $4.7 billion for housing, transportation, and ‘services’ for illegal aliens in the United States rather than deporting them.

“The Biden proposal is going nowhere, and Senate Republicans will take the lead on crafting a funding bill that protects Americans and their interests.”

 

 

And all the idiots say republicans are warmongers. Weasel liars as usual.

[Tiberius]

“I’m not a Trump defender but here is a long post defending him....

 

Just because I really don’t care, honestly!”

[SCBills]

 

[Einstein]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:52 AM, Justice said:

I can assure you of this country (I assume you’re American) ever gets occupied you will not love your oppressors. 

 

Historically speaking, the ancestors of Palestinians invaded and occupied Jewish land - not the other way around.

 

Dating back to 1,000 BC Jerusalem and Judah had been inhabited by the Jews. As far back as our current understanding of history exists, it has been Israeli and or Jewish land.

 

It wasn’t until 650 or so AD (1,650 years later) that the Muslim Caliphate left the Arab Peninsula to conquer the Byzantine empire and forcefully take over large areas of land by force, including Jerusalem and modern day Israel.

 

.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Einstein

[Justice]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Historically speaking, the ancestors of Palestinians invaded and occupied Jewish land - not the other way around.

 

Dating back to 1,000 BC Jerusalem and Judah had been inhabited by the Jews. As far back as our current understanding of history exists, it has been Israeli and or Jewish land.

 

It wasn’t until 650 or so AD (1,650 years later) that the Muslim Caliphate left the Arab Peninsula to conquer the Byzantine empire and forcefully take over large areas of land by force, including Jerusalem and modern day Israel.

 

.

I’ve never denied that but 1,650 years is a long time. Are you serious with this post? 

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Justice said:

I’ve never denied that but 1,650 years is a long time. Are you serious with this post? 

 

1,650+ years is how long it was Israeli/Jewish land until it was forcefully occupied by Palestinian ancestors. 

 

In my opinion that matters, because it gives context to the current situation. Context is something that is sorely lacking in numerous facets of todays society.

 

It is disingenuous for people to state that Palestinians have been occupied when Israel has been stating for centuries “they occupied us!” 

[SCBills]

This is the content I’m here for…

 

 

[Justice]

38 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

1,650+ years is how long it was Israeli/Jewish land until it was forcefully occupied by Palestinian ancestors. 

 

In my opinion that matters, because it gives context to the current situation. Context is something that is sorely lacking in numerous facets of todays society.

 

It is disingenuous for people to state that Palestinians have been occupied when Israel has been stating for centuries “they occupied us!” 

Hypothetical question. If the Native Americans took their back from us somehow you don’t think we Americans would revolt? And after 75 years of it you don’t think our tactics would become more and more barbaric?

[Warcodered]

45 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

1,650+ years is how long it was Israeli/Jewish land until it was forcefully occupied by Palestinian ancestors. 

 

In my opinion that matters, because it gives context to the current situation. Context is something that is sorely lacking in numerous facets of todays society.

 

It is disingenuous for people to state that Palestinians have been occupied when Israel has been stating for centuries “they occupied us!” 

Guess we better give Mexico the bad news about needing to reform the Aztec Empire with the land they currently occupy, and I guess we'll trade places with the Native Americans and the tiny ass reservations we put them on instead of the continent they were spread across.

 

Context does matter and ignoring that the Palestinians had lived on that land at that point for generations themselves is just baffling. Hell if I remember correctly shouldn't we be looking for some Canaanites to give that land back to or did Israel already "take care" of that problem.

 

Reality is at this point both sides have a claim to live in the region, and they need to stop murdering each other unless that's just what they want their reality to be.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Warcodered

[Motorin']

59 minutes ago, Justice said:

I’ve never denied that but 1,650 years is a long time. Are you serious with this post? 

 

I mean, the Romans named the land area after the Jews ancient nemesis, the Philistines, in order to spite the Jews and erase their history in Judea. 

 

How do Palestinians pronounce Palestine? Philistine, right? 

[Justice]

21 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I mean, the Romans named the land area after the Jews ancient nemesis, the Philistines, in order to spite the Jews and erase their history in Judea. 

 

How do Palestinians pronounce Palestine? Philistine, right? 

 Very close. It’s falastine. 

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Justice said:

Hypothetical question. If the Native Americans took their back from us somehow you don’t think we Americans would revolt? And after 75 years of it you don’t think our tactics would become more and more barbaric?

 

Sure. 

But in that case I certainly wouldn't be making the argument that Native Americans were colonizing "our" land. That would sound a bit tone-deaf... no?

 

18 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

if I remember correctly shouldn't we be looking for some Canaanites to give that land back to or did Israel already "take care" of that problem.

 

That is part of the reason Lebanon doesnt like Israel.
 

[Dukestreetking]

20 hours ago, Justice said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyoD_-jswVP/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

This should be all over the msm. We need to promote unity. 

Yeah, fair enough.

 

Mo Amer is pretty funny; seen him twice. Love the way he explains kos imak(!!)...and other Arabic swearing.

 

But, gun to head, who's he really supporting? I mean he's a Pal, wearing a friggin coat that mirrors the Pal keffiyeh.

 

If he showed up wearing a half-checked/half blue-white coat (or whatever) then I'd give him a little more credibility.

 

But, ok, I'll give him benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Einstein]

25 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I mean, the Romans named the land area after the Jews ancient nemesis, the Philistines, in order to spite the Jews and erase their history in Judea. 

 

That's right.

 

It was renamed Palaestina by Emperor Hadrian to ethnically cleanse Jewish identity from the territory.

[Motorin']

44 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Guess we better give Mexico the bad news about needing to reform the Aztec Empire with the land they currently occupy, and I guess we'll trade places with the Native Americans and the tiny ass reservations we put them on instead of the continent they were spread across.

 

Context does matter and ignoring that the Palestinians had lived on that land at that point for generations themselves is just baffling. Hell if I remember correctly shouldn't we be looking for some Canaanites to give that land back to or did Israel already "take care" of that problem.

 

Reality is at this point both sides have a claim to live in the region, and they need to stop murdering each other unless that's just what they want their reality to be.

 

The Jews have lived in the land of Judea continuously for over 3000 years. 

 

Most of the arab immigration to Israel began in an attempt to block the creation of the Jewish state post 1917... You know the Islamic law, something about any land ruled by the Quaran shall always be ruled by the Quaran. 

 

Likewise the notion of a Palestinian identity only emerged in an attempt to prevent the Jews from establishing a Jewish state in the 20th century. 

 

The entire region had been ruled from Turkey for hundreds of years. There was never a Palestinian state. 

 

Yes, there are legitimate grievances about being driven off of their land. But most of those people only flocked there in the first place to try block the establishment of Israel, and the 1948 removal of Arabs from areas in the West bank only happened after Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and others invaded Israel to try to stop it from coming into existence.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Motorin'

[Justice]

6 minutes ago, Dukestreetking said:

Yeah, fair enough.

 

Mo Amer is pretty funny; seen him twice. Love the way he explains kos imak(!!)...and other Arabic swearing.

 

But, gun to head, who's he really supporting? I mean he's a Pal, wearing a friggin coat that mirrors the Pal keffiyeh.

 

If he showed up wearing a half-checked/half blue-white coat (or whatever) then I'd give him a little more credibility.

 

But, ok, I'll give him benefit of the doubt on this one.

He’s standing for those he thinks needs standing up for more. Israel has been given a green light to kill their adversary and anyone in their way. Palestinians weren’t given the same. Israel can wipe Palestinians off the face of the earth if they wanted to. Therefore Mo speaks up for those that are voiceless. He just wants peace like most of us. 

12 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Sure. 

But in that case I certainly wouldn't be making the argument that Native Americans were colonizing "our" land. That would sound a bit tone-deaf... no?

 

 

That is part of the reason Lebanon doesnt like Israel.
 

I think anyone that thinks the Jewish people don’t belong in that region are being unreasonable. 

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

The Jews have lived in the land of Judea continuously for over 3000 years. 

 

Most of the arab immigration to Israel began in an attempt to block the creation of the Jewish state post 1917... You know the Islamic law, something about any land ruled by the Quaran shall always be ruled by the Quaran. 

 

Likewise the notion of a Palestinian identity only emerged in an attempt to prevent the Jews from establishing a Jewish state in the 20th century. 

 

The entire region had been ruled from Turkey for hundreds of years. There was never a Palestinian state. 

 

Yes, there are legitimate grievances about being driven off of their land. But most of those people only flocked there in the first place to try block the establishment of Israel, and the 1948 removal of Arabs from areas in the West bank only happened after Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and others invaded Israel to try to stop it from coming into existence.

 

 

Right and nobody lived there earlier...

 

"I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. Do not let them live in your land or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."- Exodus 23:31–33

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Warcodered

[Justice]

29 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

The Jews have lived in the land of Judea continuously for over 3000 years. 

 

Most of the arab immigration to Israel began in an attempt to block the creation of the Jewish state post 1917... You know the Islamic law, something about any land ruled by the Quaran shall always be ruled by the Quaran. 

 

Likewise the notion of a Palestinian identity only emerged in an attempt to prevent the Jews from establishing a Jewish state in the 20th century. 

 

The entire region had been ruled from Turkey for hundreds of years. There was never a Palestinian state. 

 

Yes, there are legitimate grievances about being driven off of their land. But most of those people only flocked there in the first place to try block the establishment of Israel, and the 1948 removal of Arabs from areas in the West bank only happened after Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and others invaded Israel to try to stop it from coming into existence.

 

 

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out Arabs have been there all along as well. I mean it’s the Middle East right? The entire region is Arab. It defies all logic to suggest otherwise. At the end of the day enough generations of Arabs has passed for that to be their home. The very fact they’re called Palestinians to begin with gives it legitimacy. Palestinians need a Palestine. The Jewish people need an Israel. It’s pretty simple.
 

They can go on hating each other and fighting but that won’t be much of a life for any of them. The PA territory minus settlements would be good enough for most of us. Allow them to control their own borders, trade and everything else that goes along with having a state minus a military. That should be part of the agreement. No military so Israel can never feel threatened. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Justice

[Motorin']

23 minutes ago, Justice said:

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out Arabs have been there all along as well. I mean it’s the Middle East right? The entire region is Arab. It defies all logic to suggest otherwise. At the end of the day enough generations of Arabs has passed for that to be their home. The very fact they’re called Palestinians to begin with gives it legitimacy. Palestinians need a Palestine. The Jewish people need an Israel. It’s pretty simple.
 

They can go on hating each other and fighting but that won’t be much of a life for any of them. The PA territory minus settlements would be good enough for most of us. Allow them to control their own borders, trade and everything else that goes along with having a state minus a military. That should be part of the agreement. No military so Israel can never feel threatened. 

 

Israel would agree to that 75 years ago. And 50 years ago. And in a heart beat. 

 

They just don't believe the Arabs ever will truly be ok with Israel'S existence.  

 

With that said, I've seen enough of footage of the dead Arab women and children in Gaza to realize something has the change. It is heartbreaking, and I pray it ends soon. 

 

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Israel would agree to that 75 years ago. And 50 years ago. And in a heart beat. 

 

They just don't believe the Arabs ever will truly be ok with Israel'S existence.  

 

With that said, I've seen enough of footage of the dead Arab women and children in Gaza to realize something has the change. It is heartbreaking, and I pray it ends soon. 

 

Much more recent than 50 years ago actually.

In 2000 there was the Camp David Summit where Israel offered to relinquish 90% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. They also offered sovereignty of the dome of the rock, and agreed to establish Palestine as an official state, fully governed by Palestinians.

 

Palestinians rejected it.

As you mentioned, after that summit, Israel came away with the belief that Palestine will simply never be okay with Israel existing.

[Andy1]

The Palestinians will never get a better deal than what was offered in 2000. 

[Justice]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

Israel would agree to that 75 years ago. And 50 years ago. And in a heart beat. 

 

They just don't believe the Arabs ever will truly be ok with Israel'S existence.  

 

With that said, I've seen enough of footage of the dead Arab women and children in Gaza to realize something has the change. It is heartbreaking, and I pray it ends soon. 

 

What’s funny is they’re already completely surrounded by enemies and yet they not only exist but they’re thriving. I don’t think the Palestinians would make it any different. 
 

And I agree to an extent. The Palestinians wouldn’t make nor accept that offer. I would though. Gladly. 
 

Yes indeed. Innocent Palestinians and Israelis don’t deserve to die an early death. It’s tragic and devastating. 

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Much more recent than 50 years ago actually.

In 2000 there was the Camp David Summit where Israel offered to relinquish 90% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. They also offered sovereignty of the dome of the rock, and agreed to establish Palestine as an official state, fully governed by Palestinians.

 

Palestinians rejected it.

As you mentioned, after that summit, Israel came away with the belief that Palestine will simply never be okay with Israel existing.

The right of return and the assassination of Rabin were the major hiccups in the way to a peaceful negotiation. 
 

Arafat was short sighted and idiotic for not taking that deal. I guess he didn’t want to be seen as a sellout. All those ppl trying to get the right of return back will all be dead soon. What a stupid thing to fight over. 

[SCBills]

This murder could, of course, be unrelated .. but people are going to make assumptions.