Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[gobills1212]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

His roster really isn’t great. He got them to overachieve last season.

 

Though unprecedented, perhaps that is what should have happened.

Hindsight is 20-20, but that wasnt my point. It didnt, regardless if it shld or shldnt have happened. Thus, its a moot point with no right answer

[LABILLBACKER]

Daboll was very good and he had a magical ability to reign Josh in.  I often dream of a world where McD was fired after 13 seconds and Dabol/Schwartz came on board.  

[without a drought]

So Jordan Palmer's off season work is a waste of time? 

 

I'm not saying he's a problem, but he's no Daboll. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Who are some of the up-and-coming names? I know Ben Johnson makes a mean run game, I haven't heard the best things about his passing concepts. Who else is out there should we have to look for a new guy? 

Is Dorsey really not an elite schemer, and if so how can you tell?

Well at this point ... You can't always be looking for NFL names

 

Somebody like Ryan grubb from Washington... A play caller who is beating people with his scheme and talent... has a potent passing attack 

 

Coaching is like playing... You do get better with experience... So Dorsey has a little wiggle room the first 8-9 weeks to see how the offense morphs 

 

But , at the NFL level, you would like to see a lot more pre-snap motion... Deliberately setting up plays ... And calming your quarterback down when he gets stressed

 

There's too many route combinations where everybody's running 15-20plus yards down field... You have to make a living within 10  yards in the NFL

Edited September 14, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Reed83HOF]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think Jordan Palmer doesn't help himself by being America's Guest.

 

Josh's performance on Monday night should not be about losing Daboll.  Josh is a big boy now, a 6 year veteran.  He doesn't need an "elite football mind" to tell him don't make (at least 2 of) the three throws he made that were intercepted, protect the football vs. trying to get back to the LOS but taking the ball and yourself into traffic.

 

He doesn't.  Any ordinary competent fooball mind will tell him that.  Josh just has to be willing to be coachable and listen.

 

Daboll has done some good things as a coach.  Daboll has done some strange things as a coach. 

 

If Daboll is such a great coach, why did his team get drubbed 40-0 on Sunday?

 

And if Josh learned so much from 4 years with this brilliant football mind, and Josh is as smart and dedicated as Palmer tells us he is, shouldn't he be able to retain some of that?

 

Come on Hapless, you are better than to take an isolated look at 1 game for each team this season...Hard to believe you are attempting an argument on the Giants losing 40-0 on Sunday. Assuming you think Bellicheck is an excellent coach, how did his team lose 31-0 to us on opening day? Poor argument there...

 

Something has certainly changed. Last year after the jets game, the injury was a concern for everyone and it did affect his play, it is very possible that there is something more going on.

 

"As easy as it is to chalk Allen’s errors up to Week 1 rustiness against a debilitating team, the outcome was troubling because it is a continuation of the downward spiral that Allen’s slid down in the 19 games he’s played since his 2022 Divisional Round classic against Patrick Mahomes.

 

On the heels of his legendary fourth-quarter barnburner against the Chiefs and a second-place finish in 2020 MVP voting, expectations for Allen were sky-high. However, his off night is looking like the new normal for Allen while his stretch between 2020 and 2021 is the outlier. In the 13 games since beating the Kansas City Chiefs in a raucous Sunday afternoon showdown in October of last year, Allen has thrown 22 touchdowns to 16 interceptions. He’s fumbled 13 times as well. If you go back even further to the beginning of 2022, he’s committed 39 turnovers over his past 19 games."

 

This looks more like decision-making on his part and wanting to rely on his talent for the big play, which teams are game planning away, more than taking his easy button and hitting the open guys.

 

 

Josh being a big boy as a 6 year old vet, doesn't eliminate the need for coaching to reign in his bad habits. Having a coach who you respect and trust, can be real (tell it like it is) and that you are willing to be able to accept constructive criticism is something that someone with his tendencies likely requires. He has been able to get where he is based off of his unique physical characteristics and his ability to ball and those tendencies are ingrained in who he is. He is very Favre like and is able to pass the ball in situations where others can't - his arm arrogance.

 

Thinking deeper and borrowing off of something I heard today from a psychologist(it is late and I'm making this quick and not overly detailed as I am freaking exhausted) about the physical development of the brain...

 

As a whole, the frontal lobe is responsible for higher cognitive functions such as memory, emotions, impulse control, problem solving, social interaction, and motor function.

 

The prefrontal cortex coordinates higher-order cognitive processes and executive functioning. Executive functions are a set of supervisory cognitive skills needed for goal-directed behavior, including planning, response inhibition, working memory, and attention [19]. These skills allow an individual to pause long enough to take stock of a situation, assess his or her options, plan a course of action, and execute it. Poor executive functioning leads to difficulty with planning, attention, using feedback, and mental inflexibility [19], all of which could undermine judgment and decision making.

 

The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying “executive functions” such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life [2]. This finding has prompted interest in linking stage of neuromaturation to maturity of judgment.

 

Having the trusted confidant to help continually reinforce the elimination of bad habits, to call you out, to teach and coach you while your still fully developing may be a bigger loss than everyone of us as fans expected.

 

I'm sure someone here will make a comment implying that Josh has poor executive functions, when the fact is he may not be at the stage of life where that is fully physiologically developed. Having that close person to help coach you through that in the game of football, may be under estimated.

 

If you took Andy Reid away from Mahomes after 5 years and replaced him with a first time OC and you took away his version of Josh's Daboll, it is reasonable to assume he would take steps back in some areas as well in relation to his tendencies and skill set and some bad habits could appear. That entire support and coaching system and confidant is now gone.

[Reed83HOF]

34 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

This.  Any field - if you're lucky enough to have a top mentor, you need to take all you can get from them, and take it to heart, and meld it into your heart and mind as much as you can.  Because things change.  Mentors retire, get promoted, leave to take different positions elsewhere - all kinds of things change.

 

You're absolutely right.  If a team is successful, the coordinators will get offers. 

 

If a QB can't adjust to different coordinators in today's NFL, he's got a problem.

 

It's not just about adjusting to different coordinators. Josh lobbied for Dorsey to stay as the OC...

 

As @Buffalo716 said above:

"They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushback

 

What all professional football players need..  a coach to coach them

 

I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching"

 

The respect can easily be tied to Daboll's understanding of the game and that Josh bought into and recognized that. In any part of life, when you have that mentor who is on another level and you realize that - you accept that teaching and coaching, you give the respect and it is much easier to take constructive criticism from due to that trust and respect. Once that mentor leaves, yes you learned things and are better than you were before, but are you willing to accept constructive criticism from that next mentor if they are on a level or 2 below? Personally, in my work life, I struggle with that (generally because I know more than they do LOL). There are only a handful of people in my professional life I would accept constructive criticism from, because they are levels above me...

 

22 minutes ago, without a drought said:

So Jordan Palmer's off season work is a waste of time? 

 

I'm not saying he's a problem, but he's no Daboll. 

Josh's work with Jordan was mechanics...This isn't mechanical.

[Mango]

The more I sit with this the more I see it similar to Michael Irvin. You can tell Josh to play smart. You can yell at him. But you can’t signal to the public that he’s dumb (pointing at your head).

 

Palmer doesn’t help here. By publicly saying  “He misses Daboll” he’s also saying “Josh is broken and needs help”.

 

But also…WTF does Josh pay this guy for. It’s week 1 and this was a mess. How can a private QB coach be like “It’s the OC” after spending more time with him than anybody in the offseason? And then be like “The real secret sauce isn’t me or his current OC, it’s the HC of the Giants?

[Buffalo716]

18 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

It's not just about adjusting to different coordinators. Josh lobbied for Dorsey to stay as the OC...

 

As @Buffalo716 said above:

"They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushback

 

What all professional football players need..  a coach to coach them

 

I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching"

 

The respect can easily be tied to Daboll's understanding of the game and that Josh bought into and recognized that. In any part of life, when you have that mentor who is on another level and you realize that - you accept that teaching and coaching, you give the respect and it is much easier to take constructive criticism from due to that trust and respect. Once that mentor leaves, yes you learned things and are better than you were before, but are you willing to accept constructive criticism from that next mentor if they are on a level or 2 below? Personally, in my work life, I struggle with that (generally because I know more than they do LOL). There are only a handful of people in my professional life I would accept constructive criticism from, because they are levels above me...

 

Josh's work with Jordan was mechanics...This isn't mechanical.

Exactly..

 

Josh could spend eight weeks straight with Palmer.. and not throw one football... Not ONE... That goes to show you the prep work into being a top quarterback

 

People were freaking out when Josh said he doesn't watch a crazy amount of tape on his opponent... Rough quote... He didn't say he doesn't watch a lot of film... Just of his opponent

 

Because in reality .. nobody plays any other team like they play Josh Allen.. he's actually right in that regard... How do teams play Patrick mahomes and Aaron Rodgers in their prime? How about Steve Young in his prime??

 

No amount of film could actually get you prepared for how they'll play you... Because they're not playing you the same.. what you need to get a hold of is how the rest of the league is trying to play you

 

Which Josh can do.. but he seems to get bored having to play 12 play drives for an entire game.. so teams Bank on him throwing two or three interceptions

 

Get into a shootout with the bills and Josh Allen.. and you will lose... Slow the game down and give him the minimum amount of possessions... And he will turn the ball over and you'll win by a score .. 

 

He has the remedy.. he just needs a coach to put the fear of God back into him so he doesn't revert back to this for the next decade... He knows the problem

Edited September 14, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Mango]

42 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Daboll was very good and he had a magical ability to reign Josh in.  I often dream of a world where McD was fired after 13 seconds and Dabol/Schwartz came on board.  

Sometimes I think some of this is revisionist. I remember this board being highly critical of Daboll a lot of times.

 

It’s worth noting that since coming into the league Josh leads the NFL in turnovers. Only 19 of 86 games are under Dorsey. 
 

Josh’s most interceptions were 2021 and fumbles were in 2019, both under Daboll.

 

Daboll is a good coach and likely better than Dorsey; but I think there’s a little “grass is greener” going on here. Also maybe a little “OMG, don’t let my franchise QB be broken forever” knee jerk response. (He isn’t broken forever)

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

Sometimes I think some of this is revisionist. I remember this board being highly critical of Daboll a lot of times.

 

It’s worth noting that since coming into the league Josh leads the NFL in turnovers. Only 19 of 86 games are under Dorsey. 
 

Josh’s most interceptions were 2021 and fumbles were in 2019, both under Daboll.

 

Daboll is a good coach and likely better than Dorsey; but I think there’s a little “grass is greener” going on here. Also maybe a little “OMG, don’t let my franchise QB be broken forever” knee jerk response. (He isn’t broken forever)

Yeah, I think I’ve read more about Daboll now that he’s no longer with the team, than I have when he was here. And when he was here I remember quite vividly the calls for his head and the wild speculation about the rift between he and McD.
 

Many wanted to see Daboll gone and now that they’ve got their wish, they want him back. 

[Bferra13]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

His roster really isn’t great. He got them to overachieve last season.

 

Though unprecedented, perhaps that is what should have happened.

I really wonder if Daboll had a big say in resigning Jones. If he was banging his fist for it (i would assume he'd have a strong say in it), he might go down with the ship as well.

[JerseyBills]

Allen was a bit better statistically with Dorsey , all while the O lost a productive #2 WR in Sanders, pushed Gabe as new #2 and the new #3 McKenzie , clearly wasn't capable of that big of a role. 

 

I'm not happy with his performance, totally unacceptable and the All 22 made it worse. Showed 17 had plenty of EASY opportunities and just didn't take em but it was 1 game vs an elite divisional rival. 

 

Gotta dominate LV at home. Very confident in the D, main worry is 17 and can't believe I'm saying that but I also fully expect 350+ total yards 3+ TD. Guess that's the Allen experience 

Edited September 14, 2023 by JerseyBills

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

 

Thank you!

 

Not to mention a 3-6-1 finish to last season after opponents caught on to the new Daboll led Giants.  

 

Honestly, Daboll, the best coach in football?  Belichick needs to worry a little bit more about his own coaching reputation apart from Brady, which to date sucks mouse nips.  

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by PBF81

[KDIGGZ]

3 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Hopefully Daboll can get fired in NJ and the Bills can bring him back as the OC.

 

Wishful thinking! In all seriousness, I hope the Bills can bring in a better QB coach or OC that can keep Josh streamlined.

If Daboll gets fired he won't be coming back unless it's as head coach. There were murmurs that him and McDermott weren't getting along and he was out of here even if he didn't get a head coaching job. But if both teams keep playing like they did this past weekend, it could be a possibility that both are looking for new jobs (though highly unlikely as both have earned some leeway).

[PBF81]

... and everyone always talks about Jordan Palmer as if he's some kind of QB whisperer, but which QBs has he coached to greatness.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

I remember the days when 80% of this board were convinced Daboll sucked and wanted him fired. Fun times.

[Taro Nimbus]

I’m confused….didn’t half of this message board want Daboll gone, and now they want him back?   Same exact thing with Edmunds.  Everyone wanted him out but now wish we still had him.  🤦‍♂️😂

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

Even with that 40-0 drubbing on opening night?

 

You could say same thing about Cheats being drubbed on opening night by Bills.

 

Single games especially openers can be due to a lot of reasons especially players not working together before.

7 minutes ago, Taro Nimbus said:

I’m confused….didn’t half of this message board want Daboll gone, and now they want him back?   Same exact thing with Edmunds.  Everyone wanted him out but now wish we still had him.  🤦‍♂️😂

 

It is easy to do with posters flipping back and forth on position which is made worse by those who goal appears to be able to say "I was right" ever time something goes wrong.  They would have issues with a 51-3 win in Superbowl for defense allowed them to score.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

You know they just gave Jones a 4-year $160M contract with $81M guaranteed, right?

That’s upper level bridge QB money now. Close to what Tannehill got from the Titans a few years ago. (4 years 120 mill.) 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I remember the days when 80% of this board were convinced Daboll sucked and wanted him fired. Fun times.

Don't know what you got until it's gone....