New stadium cost goes up from $1.4 billion to $1.54 billion.

[mrags]

27 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I’m not arguing any particular point, but I’m just here to say I’ve lived in both Cincinnati and Buffalo for extended periods. Buffalo may have its snow events, but it can get SERIOUSLY cold in Cincinnati. Bitter, BITTER cold. 

That may be. But….. how old is their stadium and the bigger question is, if they were to build a new one, would they build an outdoor stadium again? 

[Augie]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

That may be. But….. how old is their stadium and the bigger question is, if they were to build a new one, would they build an outdoor stadium again? 

 

It was built in 2000, and if they replaced it I SERIOUSLY doubt it would be a dome. Like Pittsburgh and Cleveland up the road, it’s just not their style. 

 

Did I mention it gets brutally cold in Cincinnati? Didn’t they have some epic cold weather games, including an AFCCG vs the Bills? Like, some record setting cold games. 

[RiotAct]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

What makes you think the drunken idiots are cheap?

 

Plenty of six-figure drunken #######s who like the bills lol 

 

Literally to a lot of people in Buffalo… The bills are everything

 

People are willing to spend

 

I’m one of them!!! (Albeit very, very low 6-figures… 😂)

[Buffalo_Stampede]

13 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I’m one of them!!! (Albeit very, very low 6-figures… 😂)

I’m 6 figures also with a zero in front.

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I’m 6 figures also with a zero in front.

 

I keep reading part of the high WNY taxes go to solid education, but……sorry, the zeroes in front don’t really count.    🤷‍♂️

 

Maybe your parents can apply for a tax refund?   😋

[nucci]

35 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

It was built in 2000, and if they replaced it I SERIOUSLY doubt it would be a dome. Like Pittsburgh and Cleveland up the road, it’s just not their style. 

 

Did I mention it gets brutally cold in Cincinnati? Didn’t they have some epic cold weather games, including an AFCCG vs the Bills? Like, some record setting cold games. 

Bengal Chargers -59 WC

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

26 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I’m one of them!!! (Albeit very, very low 6-figures… 😂)

Congrats!!

 

But if you're kids are going to college you won't be able to afford PSLs and season tickets.

 

I'm very sorry 

Edited April 11, 2023 by JakeFrommStateFarm

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Congrats!!

 

But if you're kids are going to college you won't be able to afford PSLs and season tickets.

 

I'm very sorry 

College is over rated. I know. I went…a lot. Go to the game! 😉

[JoPoy88]

59 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That seems high based strictly on the recently reported construction cost. Typically a/e design costs would be somewhere around 7.0% for a project of this size. The higher the construction cost, the lower the percentage. This is generally true for all types of projects (residential, commercial, institutional, etc.)

he’s not accurately quoting the story - it said that number was for design and other “soft costs.”

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Buffalo has the worst weather in league by far, there’s no comparison. 
 

Let me also say this stadium is going to be gorgeous and state of the art. Nothing embarrassing about it. I just think they should’ve gone all in and built it right. $200 million is a lot of money added for a dome  but over 50 years for an NFL team it’s a small amount.

 

 

Bull. I’ve been to an ice storm in Cleveland. i’ve been to near blizzard conditions at Gillette.

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

he’s not accurately quoting the story - it said that number was for design and other “soft costs.”

Bull. I’ve been to an ice storm in Cleveland. i’ve been to near blizzard conditions at Gillette.

Thanks

Soft costs refers to anything not part of the ‘hard’ construction cost. Besides design fees that typically includes permit fees, inspection, furnishings, and a host of other smaller fees and costs. 

[Big Turk]

4 hours ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

Yet still no dome stadium while Indianapolis Colts and Detroit Lions fans are nice and warm in a dome. Some Buffalo Bills fans can’t stand Buffalo being the but of jokes over the years but this is ok that we are? With this new Bills stadium not having a dome? The Buffalo Bills look ridiculous and backwards more than anything the Buffalo Bills did on the field or Buffalo fans did in general in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

 

Who gives a crap about a dome?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

I keep reading part of the high WNY taxes go to solid education, but……sorry, the zeroes in front don’t really count.    🤷‍♂️

 

Maybe your parents can apply for a tax refund?   😋

No way. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

17 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

And Lucas Oil Stadium has hosted Super Bowls, Final Fours, NCAA Football Championships, it hosts the combine every year, countless concerts and business engagements. It has been great for the city of Indy

 

that shoulda been the model to strive for here. Not a freakin replica of the current thing across the street so we can host none of those things.

 

so stupid!

 

 

They literally modeled the stadium after old War memorial and the current stadium.

 

I mean great, the die hards are happy, at least until they see their bill. 

 

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

31 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They literally modeled the stadium after old War memorial and the current stadium.

 

I mean great, the die hards are happy, at least until they see their bill. 

 

 

 

 

I just noticed that too. The new stadium has a field, goal posts, and seats….just like the current one. The resemblance is downright remarkable! 😉

[May Day 10]

1 hour ago, SUNY_amherst said:

And Lucas Oil Stadium has hosted Super Bowls, Final Fours, NCAA Football Championships, it hosts the combine every year, countless concerts and business engagements. It has been great for the city of Indy

 

that shoulda been the model to strive for here. Not a freakin replica of the current thing across the street so we can host none of those things.

 

so stupid!

 

 

 

The problem is, that space has gotten very competitive between the facility in Indy, Minneapolis, Vegas, Dallas, Atlanta, LA, and heck, even East Rutherford.  Add in a new reno for the SkyDome/Rogers.   

The chances of Buffalo hosting events like that are minimal to none.  They aren't going to lift the combine.  It is a terrible market for NCAA Football, nobody will rush to host neutral site games here, I bet they would have trouble stealing the MAC Championship from Detroit. 

 

PS&E had studies done that looked into the potential events that could/would be hosted in a downtown/indoor facility over the current choice.  My guess is the potential events aren't worth it.

 

And to be honest, a replica of Lucas Oil Stadium would look great downtown.  The problem is you are tagging on a ton of direct and indirect cost and a stretched out building (and red tape) schedule.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I just noticed that too. The new stadium has a field, goal posts, and seats….just like the current one. The resemblance is downright remarkable! 😉

Haha jokes. But they actually said that and think it’s a good thing.

[SoCal Deek]

52 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Haha jokes. But they actually said that and think it’s a good thing.

Lighten up Francis....it's all in good fun! I guess I am interested to hear what parts of the new stadium you believe look similar to the existing stadium. One is built totally above ground, the other halfway into the ground. One has a roof, and the other doesn't. One has multiple level covered concourses, and the other doesn't. One has an exterior architectural skin, and the other doesn't. Yes....they are both stadiums, for sure, but in my opinion they aren't even close to the same. When they talk about them being the same, I believe they're referring to the 'atmosphere' of a fan-centered game experience. It's essentially marketing-speak.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

42 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Lighten up Francis....it's all in good fun! I guess I am interested to hear what parts of the new stadium you believe look similar to the existing stadium. One is built totally above ground, the other halfway into the ground. One has a roof, and the other doesn't. One has multiple level covered concourses, and the other doesn't. One has an exterior architectural skin, and the other doesn't. Yes....they are both stadiums, for sure, but in my opinion they aren't even close to the same. When they talk about them being the same, I believe they're referring to the 'atmosphere' of a fan-centered game experience. It's essentially marketing-speak.

I don’t really care, it’s a stadium to me. I wasn’t the type of fan they needed to impress. I’m going no matter what.

 

But answering your question there are design features taken from both stadiums built into the look of the stadium. That’s what they said. But like I’ve been saying, no one cares about this stadium and these design features.

 

But don’t worry, you’ll be paying more for them. All that matters.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[RiotAct]

19 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Congrats!!

 

But if you're kids are going to college you won't be able to afford PSLs and season tickets.

 

I'm very sorry 

haha you’ve got that right. 

[SoCal Deek]

17 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

There was something to be said for keeping the existing stadium, upgrading certain features to modern standards, and going the approach of a Fenway Park, Lambeau type deal, where it is unique in a world of modern but similar ridiculous structures.

 

but if you decide to let Jerry Jones plan everything as they are, and invest $1.5 billion, mostly public funding, as they are, then build a dome and put it downtown. You don't put a copycat across the street.

 

It is expensive (modern/ridiculous), useless and without the charm of a historic facility.

I actually agree with a lot of that. I’m told that the existing concrete structure itself is in terrible condition.  But I’ve also heard that this is primarily in the upper desk, not the lower bowl which is built into the ground. So yes, I agree that each upper deck could have been torn down either all at once or in successive years and then rebuilt with new roof covered sideline grandstands including multi story indoor concourse structures. I’m guessing it would’ve been far cheaper. 

[cba fan]

On 4/10/2023 at 2:34 PM, SUNY_amherst said:

 

i dont think they are getting $1billion from taxpayers anywhere in the US to build a Home Depot or Target 

 

NFL stadium seems a little bigger in scale than a car dealership

 

 

 

 

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds, fill in the blank ___________________developers of strip malls etc etc...... they all get tax welfare. And they in total get much much more than the occasional sports arena being built as sports are getting less and less public input. Developers and private businesses getting corporate tax welfare are increasing as the states and localities fight to entice them.

 

Just mention a Tesla or Lowes warehouse or Bass Pro or Amazon HQ, or a Casino, to an area, and they will rain money down on them to get them.

Edited April 12, 2023 by cba fan

[cba fan]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:15 PM, nucci said:

I live in Delaware. No sales tax here

it was a metaphor. And i was talking about tax on car sales off your comment about buying a car. Document car tax in Delaware. 1500 to over 2 k per car.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by cba fan

[Bob Jones]

17 hours ago, cba fan said:

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds, fill in the blank ___________________developers of strip malls etc etc...... they all get tax welfare. And they in total get much much more than the occasional sports arena being built as sports are getting less and less public input. Developers and private businesses getting corporate tax welfare are increasing as the states and localities fight to entice them.

 

Just mention a Tesla or Lowes warehouse or Bass Pro or Amazon HQ, or a Casino, to an area, and they will rain money down on them to get them.

Maybe, but not always. NY city TURNED AWAY a large Amazon project.

[mrags]

8 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Maybe, but not always. NY city TURNED AWAY a large Amazon project.

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

[Bob Jones]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

You only get cahrged a fee if you want fast shipping for *free.* Not everybody is a Prime member. 😉

[Einstein]

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

Source? Don't think that happened. You might be able to find money going towards improvements of roads, or tax credits - but I see no evidence of the government giving Walmart billions to build stores.

 

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds

 

Again, source?

 

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

they all get tax welfare

 

This is much much much much different than cash.

 

Getting a tax credit to reduce the tax burden on a businesses land to incentivize them to come or stay, is way different than handing them a check for nearly $1 billion dollars.

 

[SoCal Deek]

42 minutes ago, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

No they don’t….not yet. Funny thing is that Barnes and Noble already does. While buying a paperback the other day I was asked if I was a loyalty customer, and when the guy then offered me the ‘deal’ I learned it came with an annual fee…and that was just to buy a book for $9.95. Sheeesh! 😉

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

No they don’t….not yet. Funny thing is that Barnes and Noble already does. While buying a paperback the other day I was asked if I was a loyalty customer, and when the guy then offered me the ‘deal’ I learned it came with an annual fee…and that was just to buy a book for $9.95. Sheeesh! 😉

Eh. I feel like Barnes and Nobles is having the same issue that every single newspaper in the entire world is having. Nobody get paper newspapers or books anymore. You can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. Book stores will be a thing of the past very soon. Just like paper newspapers. But McDonalds will always have a home. The big box companies like Lowe’s and Bass Pro may be gone sooner or later as online shopping continues and expands. 

[Einstein]

20 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

It is expensive (modern/ridiculous), useless and without the charm of a historic facility.

 

Well said.

 

It completely lacks charm. A truly terrible design. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Eh. I feel like Barnes and Nobles is having the same issue that every single newspaper in the entire world is having. Nobody get paper newspapers or books anymore. You can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. Book stores will be a thing of the past very soon. Just like paper newspapers. But McDonalds will always have a home. The big box companies like Lowe’s and Bass Pro may be gone sooner or later as online shopping continues and expands. 

I thought I would try this…so bear with me:

 

“Eh. I feel like small market sports franchises are having the same issues as other businesses. Nobody wants to pay big money to attend games in person when you can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. But big market teams will always have a home. The small market teams may soon be gone so long as online streaming continues and expands.”

 

Not too shabby, huh? I did that thumb typing on a cell phone. 😁

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well said.

 

It completely lacks charm. A truly terrible design. 

Let me guess. You were hoping for some gothic columns and stone arches? 😉

[SoCal Deek]

8 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

i believe it does have arches actually in the end zone in the last rendering

 

But that’s the whole point, if you have the Mona Lisa and you trash it to paint a brand new portrait of a homely brunette woman that looks similar to the Mona Lisa, it is gonna lack charm

 

 

I was of course joking about the arches. Stadium design has gone through many aesthetic trends over the last century. There was a time when they were built to resemble classical buildings. Think of the LA Coliseum and Soldier Field. That eventually gave way to a more utilitarian aesthetic where the focus was on the field itself and much less on the ‘building’. Some were successful and some have already been demolished. Rich Stadium, as I still call it, would fit into this category. It has no architectural adornment of any kind, but it does have very elegant, non-stylistic lines…which is why in my opinion it’s not considered to be out of date by most who review these things. Fast forward, and the newest stadiums are back to being ‘buildings’ again but now with a decidedly forward looking aesthetic. Much different from even the newest baseball stadiums which typically draw from a more nostalgic looking aesthetic. 

[Just Jack]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:39 PM, SoCal Deek said:

I actually agree with a lot of that. I’m told that the existing concrete structure itself is in terrible condition.  But I’ve also heard that this is primarily in the upper desk, not the lower bowl which is built into the ground. So yes, I agree that each upper deck could have been torn down either all at once or in successive years and then rebuilt with new roof covered sideline grandstands including multi story indoor concourse structures. I’m guessing it would’ve been far cheaper. 

 

I'm in one of the club sections and I did notice some steel reinforcement was added this past season underneath the upper deck to the concrete.  Kind of a band aid to keep the upper deck concrete from coming apart. 

[SoCal Deek]

45 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

I'm in one of the club sections and I did notice some steel reinforcement was added this past season underneath the upper deck to the concrete.  Kind of a band aid to keep the upper deck concrete from coming apart. 

Exactly.
 

What you’re seeing there is a classic example of the structural properties of reinforced concrete. The concrete works in compression. Meaning it won’t ‘smoosh’ but it cracks easily if you bend it. Whereas the steel reinforcing bars are the opposite. They can bend without snapping but have almost no compressive strength. Put the two together and you have a structure that resists both tension and compression. However…if and when the concrete starts to deteriorate and water gets to the steel, it will rust, and then lose all of its tensile strength…and eventually the whole thing fails completely. 
 

How’s that for a quick structural engineering lesson? 

[cba fan]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

Sams Club and Costco do.

If your above mentions are in tiff districts, then yes you pay every year in property tax lost that must be made up by raising yours. 

If tax welfare is funded through bonds then again you keep paying locally.

If fed money is given you are paying via income tax.

virtually all those locations also charge local and state sales tax. Just 4 states have no sales tax. 

 

You are splitting hairs. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by cba fan

[cba fan]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:24 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Question. If fans had a choice would they have chosen a renovation and no PSL’s at $900 million or what we’re getting at $1.6 billion and PSL’s that could be more? 
 

I should add that a renovation would mean playing games elsewhere for 2-3 years.

rebuilding would have ended up costing close to a new one and they would still have been left with an old crappy one. Not good money management.

 

moving Bills to another site(Syracuse?) for 3 years during a rare SB window with aQB in his prime would have been the most epic failure in NFL history killing home field advantage making all games like a road game.

[cba fan]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:53 AM, Einstein said:

 

Source? Don't think that happened. You might be able to find money going towards improvements of roads, or tax credits - but I see no evidence of the government giving Walmart billions to build stores.

 

 

Again, source?

 

 

This is much much much much different than cash.

 

Getting a tax credit to reduce the tax burden on a businesses land to incentivize them to come or stay, is way different than handing them a check for nearly $1 billion dollars.

 

Walmart argues the amounts but not the receiving of the welfare.

 

Walmart benefits from billions in government subsidies- Study.url Wal-Mart's Expansion Aided By Many Taxpayer Subsidies - The New York Times.url

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

rebuilding would have ended up costing close to a new one and they would still have been left with an old crappy one. Not good money management.

 

moving Bills to another site(Syracuse?) for 3 years during a rare SB window with aQB in his prime would have been the most epic failure in NFL history killing home field advantage making all games like a road game.

not to mention there is no way in hell the league office and the other owners would have went for a billion dollar renovation of a 50 year old stadium. Never ever would have even been considered. Yet some people here talk about it like it would have been such a great option. 
 

And no don’t bring up Chicago. Totally different situation.

[mrags]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Sams Club and Costco do.

If your above mentions are in tiff districts, then yes you pay every year in property tax lost that must be made up by raising yours. 

If tax welfare is funded through bonds then again you keep paying locally.

If fed money is given you are paying via income tax.

virtually all those locations also charge local and state sales tax. Just 4 states have no sales tax. 

 

You are splitting hairs. 

Ok. But everything you just stated also applies to the Bills and the new stadium AND, they are also charging PSLs. Again. You can’t say that all these companies are getting breaks and profiting but then not include the Bills. And you can add Sams Club and Costco all you want. That’s a membership fee. But if you really want to include them and their $50-100 membership fees to prove your point then I guess I’ll just concede and that you refuse to listen to any argument. So have a good day. 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Walmart argues the amounts but not the receiving of the welfare.

 

Walmart benefits from billions in government subsidies- Study.url 99 B · 1 download Wal-Mart's Expansion Aided By Many Taxpayer Subsidies - The New York Times.url 128 B · 0 downloads

 

As I said, that isn’t cash. It’s counting the new infrastructure (such as roads) required around new Walmart stores, employees getting public assistance, tax credits, etc.

 

Not cash given to Walmart by the government to open stores. Not even remotely relatable to the nearly $1B in cash equivalent the Bills are receiving.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

10 hours ago, mrags said:

Ok. But everything you just stated also applies to the Bills and the new stadium AND, they are also charging PSLs. Again. You can’t say that all these companies are getting breaks and profiting but then not include the Bills. And you can add Sams Club and Costco all you want. That’s a membership fee. But if you really want to include them and their $50-100 membership fees to prove your point then I guess I’ll just concede and that you refuse to listen to any argument. So have a good day. 

 

I just love these whining folks who are always clutching their pearls because the Bills are getting help building a new stadium and OHMAGERD taxpayers are footing part of the bill. SO WHAT?!?! The Bills ARE WNY, period. It's a great investment for the region and thankfully all of those in the negotiations are pro public stadium financing.