Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[transplantbillsfan]

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

Edited February 24, 2023 by transplantbillsfan

[78thealltimegreat]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

Great find. I have to give credit to Josh there a bunch of guys who would have milked this for everything it’s worth in this league.

He never missed a snap, never missed a game, and never used it as an excuse. When it’s clear he very easily could have. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Big Blitz]

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

[LABILLBACKER]

9 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

As long as scrub olineman like Quessenberry don't get him hit again. 

[finn]

So is the pain that limited him gone by now? Is the injury healed? I heard he isn't getting surgery, but are we looking at another season with Allen limited to deep throws?

[transplantbillsfan]

10 minutes ago, finn said:

So is the pain that limited him gone by now? Is the injury healed? I heard he isn't getting surgery, but are we looking at another season with Allen limited to deep throws?

 

Ummm... really?

 

If he doesn't need the surgery my guess is that's because it'll heal 100% with rest. If it were still going to limit him, he'd get the surgery.

[Gugny]

54 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

[gobills404]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Maybe actually listen to the podcast. He takes plenty of shots at Dorsey’s scheme and play calling.

[mead107]

Ban football 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It makes sense and I actually thought about that. Allen had less discomfort throwing deep.

 

 

56 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

As long as scrub olineman like Quessenberry don't get him hit again. 

Man they did. I swear he got hit the same way 2 more times as the year went on. We’re so lucky Allen didn’t get hurt worse.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Doc]

From the thread title, I thought a doctor was saying all teams should abandon the short and intermediate throws.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Bottom line the Buffalo Bills offensive line isn’t good enough. It was very obvious during this years Super Bowl no way does our offensive line match up with neither one of those Super Bowl teams Kansas City Chiefs or the Philadelphia Eagles in my opinion.
 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

We don’t have well round Buffalo sports teams we rely on one superstar than we get let down when something like a injury or one play happens that cost Buffalo a championship. Our Buffalo sports teams are too thin with not enough depth that does Buffalo sports teams in. Not Buffalo sports teams bad luck or the team is curse or Buffalo is curse why we lose. We don’t have the depth on our roster throughout to win a undisputed National Championship in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[The Red King]

I worried about him playing through that injury, and thinking he maybe should have rested several games.  That I'd be happier seeing them go in as a Wild Card with a healthy Allen then I would a top seed with an injured Allen.

[Richard Noggin]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

 

Your screen name is Buffalo Super Fan, yet you characterize the 90s Bills as relying solely on their superstar QB?! That's egregiously wrong. That team was absolutely STACKED.

 

For that first SB run, Kelly was throwing to James Lofton and Andre Reed, and handing off (and throwing to) Thurman Thomas. Gold Jackets errwhere. The defense was loaded. There was a contingent of Bills fans back then who argued that Jim Kelly was often, in fact, holding the team back, at times. There were calls for Reich. One could argue that Kelly's ego didn't always call Thurman's number enough...like, say, in their first Super Bowl appearance where Belichick's gameplan relied on Kelly's aggressive tendencies. Even if you ignore Kelly's alleged bullheadedness, the roster was inarguably ELITE. 

 

And wasn't Gilbert Perrault part of an iconic LINE of forwards?! Weren't the THREE of them celebrated in conjunction? 

 

Hasek and Allen seem like fair examples of your take, but some of these others simply don't. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

From the thread title, I thought a doctor was saying all teams should abandon the short and intermediate throws.

 

My bad! Fixed it!

[DrPJax]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

I’m sorry I had to laugh at this
 

It seems plausible, though

[ProcessTruster]

6 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Maybe actually listen to the podcast. He takes plenty of shots at Dorsey’s scheme and play calling.

I'm old enough to the remember all the "fire Daboll" posts in 2021 as well.   Rinse and repeat.   

 

Let it go.  Josh will be healthy in 2023 , Dorsey will have learned and off we go.   Trust the Process.  

[JGMcD2]

4 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

Brock Purdy (most recently in NFL) and thousands of MLB pitchers have experienced this injury which has prevented them from being able to throw immediately after. Granted they’re all varying degrees… but you typically get shutdown right after for a few weeks. 
 

Even MLB pitchers who get the PRP injection end up being shut down for an extended period of time despite not receiving surgery. 
 

You’re right, we don’t know specifics and may never. Based on the initial information it was a pretty significant UCL strain… we know that it’s a fact. Just because he was playing doesn’t mean it didn’t hurt and it didn’t impact his ability to make throws. 
 

Josh was out there because 50% Josh is better than 100% Case Keenum. 
 

EDIT:

 

Brasoban made two relief appearances in the Dominican Winter League before being shut down with elbow and forearm issues earlier this month, Padres General Manager A.J. Preller said Wednesday. In hopes of avoiding surgery, he received the elbow injection last week in San Diego. The 22-year-old will be re-evaluated in six to eight weeks.

 

Meanwhile, MLB circulated Ohtani’s medical history. Sources from two of the teams say the report included a notation that Ohtani underwent a platelet-rich plasma injection on his right elbow in October. PRP has become popular as a conservative, nonsurgical treatment to address a wide variety of elbow issues. In some cases, such as with Zack Greinke in 2013 and Chris Sale in ’14, it treats inflammation and irritation. (Both pitchers missed only a few starts.) In other cases, such as strains or tears to the flexor tendon or ulnar collateral ligament, it is used instead of surgery. Yankees starter Masahiro Tanaka, for instance, underwent PRP therapy in 2014 to treat a small UCL tear and has pitched effectively since then. Other pitchers who tried PRP eventually needed Tommy John surgery, including Clay Buchholz and Drew Smyly this year.

 

Tanaka did come back and pitch successfully, but it was 6-weeks from injection before he got back on the mound. 

Ohtani had a 2nd UCL sprain (2nd degree) after he received the PRP injection the winter prior. He received another PRP injection and was down for 11 weeks before throwing in a game again. 
 

Now that Allen is firmly on the road to recovery, a report from NFL insiders Tom Pelissero and Ian Rapoport has indicated that the injury was “worse” than initially reported. The QB suffered the injury all the way back in Week 14 but wasn’t forced to miss any time.

“The extent of the injury, originally reported as a UCL sprain, was worse than most knew. But as long as Allen avoided reinjury, which he has to this point, doctors always believed he could avoid surgery and heal up during the offseason.”

 

Anyone that I’ve ever come in contact with after receiving a PRP injection on a UCL injury has been shut down for at least 6 weeks before reevaluating them. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by JGMcD2

[Mr. WEO]

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game: