Khalil Shakir / answer for WR 2 / Makes Sports Illustrated

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, WyoAZBillfan said:

While this is a nice list, how many super bowls have been won with those players and the elite talent?

 

So keep investing in more Defensive Line, Secondary and Running Back talent, and keep scabbing on the Offensive Line and WR? 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

You are not wrong, but this just isn't the best WR draft. It is one of the weaker WR classes in the past 10 years or so IMO. More like the 2015 and 2016 classes. 

 

 

What does the interior OL look like?  Is there any day 2 talent at WR?

[somnus00]

14 hours ago, Wizard said:

I hope the person that is our #2 next year is not Davis or Shakir because Shakir will be our #3 slot receiver and Davis the 4th receiver on the roster.

I think this is exactly right, and would be ideal. We need a real playmaking WR2. That guy isn't on the roster right now. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

What does the interior OL look like?  Is there any day 2 talent at WR?

 

Interior OL is one of the better groups in the class IMO. No superstar 1st round Q Nelson type.... but plenty of guys who I think can go round 2-4 and be good NFL starters reasonably early. 

[NewEra]

I’m as big a Shakir fan as there is…. But if he’s WR2, Beane really ****** up

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I fully expect a vet AND a high draft picks 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

He doesn't "scream more playing time" to me. He had a REAL issue separating early in the year and learning how to recognise and then sit in zones that make you available to your Quarterback as an NFL receiver. He played against less zone coverage in college and his speed and shiftiness at his level of competition facing lots of man defense meant he was open. In the NFL where it is mainly zone defense he had to learn how you adjust. There was definite progress by the end of the year, so I hope we see that in 2023. 

 

But anyone who wants to tell me Shakir "deserved" more playing time in 2022 I will refer them to the film. 

 

As for can he be the Bills WR2.... it depends what you mean by that. Can he play on the outside opposite Diggs? No. Not as any sort of long term proposition. Can he win the slot receiver job and overtake the 2nd outside guy (be that Gabe or someone else) in targets? Yes. Although I'm sceptical that he becomes the 2nd most targeted receiver in 2023. Maybe that is more a 2024 target. 

 

 

You're right, he wasn't getting open and that is not something you can just project will change entirely.

 

He's a work in progress and also kind of a tweener with regard to outside and inside skills.........limitations in both areas........he may never be more than a good 4th receiver option for a top offense.  

 

But we are at the point of the offseason where fans are getting far enough removed from the actual games played  to start getting delusional about expectations for players who are down the roster.     It only gets worse until camp starts.

[BillsVet]

15 hours ago, Figster said:

 Andre Reed was drafted in the 4th round from a small School and yet played all 16 games as a rookie with over 600 yards.  Player development under HC McD is being questioned. I'm fine with showing loyalty to a player / senority to a point. Not when it means slowing the development of a more talented athlete. 

 

Andre Reed went into his 2nd season 37 years ago.  Appropriate comparisons have left the building.

[Big Turk]

Any of JSN, Josh Downs or Zay Flowers and I am happy.

15 hours ago, Figster said:

 Andre Reed was drafted in the 4th round from a small School and yet played all 16 games as a rookie with over 600 yards.  Player development under HC McD is being questioned. I'm fine with showing loyalty to a player / senority to a point. Not when it means slowing the development of a more talented athlete. 

 

Gabe Davis had 599 yards as a rookie and I believe led the team in receiving TDs...forgot or did you conveniently leave that out?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Any of JSN, Josh Downs or Zay Flowers and I am happy.

 

Gabe Davis had 599 yards as a rookie and I believe led the team in receiving TDs...forgot or did you conveniently leave that out?

This is right. 

 

Going into this 1st Round it looks like Hyatt, Smith-Njigba, Flowers, Johnson, Downs, Addison. 

 

Get one of those players. 

[Figster]

56 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Any of JSN, Josh Downs or Zay Flowers and I am happy.

 

Gabe Davis had 599 yards as a rookie and I believe led the team in receiving TDs...forgot or did you conveniently leave that out?

My memories not he greatest and I'm fine with positives about Davis. Tight hips and lower body will alwys limit Gabe Davis's route running capabilities IMO. Limitions Shakir does not have IMO. Both Davis and Knox run a 4.5 or above forty. Shakir is faster then Knox, Davis and Diggs. 

[nosejob]

17 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Big play (when he doesn't drop it) Gabe didn't need 3 years to get in the lineup.

LMAO......signed Isaiah Hodgins

[Ethan in Cleveland]

9 hours ago, Figster said:

Knox probably deserved to be on the poll.

 

Myself personally, Shakirs a better route runner then both of them IMO. I think Shakir can get better seperation then both of them. I also think Shakir can high point a football better then both of them IMO. 

Knox is 5 inches taller than Shakir. No idea what you mean better at high point of the football??  Knox catch radius is far greater than Shakir. Go watch Bills first TD in playoff game versus Pats.

[nosejob]

9 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

We need to do what we did last year and bring in a solid vet to be wide receiver number two push Gabe Davis to number three and hope that Shakir shows enough to be the starting slot and wide receiver number four

 

In the end, I think that’s where we screwed up this year. Gabe Davis wasn’t ready to make the transition to be the number two receiver yet we should’ve had a veteran in front of him even if it was an older veteran.

I don't get the Gabe hate. Playoff record in K.C.?  Titans game this year? Wasn't he dealing with calf/ankle issues for most of the year? I have plenty of faith in Gabe. I'm still pissed they let Dabol swipe Hodgins, but Gabe will have a better year next year. Should they stop trying to get elite talent?, no. I would rather have Pickens than James Cook, ( if that possibly could have happened) but I'm just a lowly fan of almost 50 years.

[ngbills]

I tend to not buy the "he would have done zyz if only he had the chance". There is usually a reason and its not like he was sitting behind a ton of guys. We were so light at WR that we signed Brown and Beasley. Its more likely he is not good enough yet and may never be more than a jag. Could have a decent game here or there or could not be dressing for games. Very unlikely he is a #2 on a playoff team. 

[Figster]

5 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Knox is 5 inches taller than Shakir. No idea what you mean better at high point of the football??  Knox catch radius is far greater than Shakir. Go watch Bills first TD in playoff game versus Pats.

 Good point on the catch radius of Knox although being taller doesn't necessarily mean you high point a football better IMO. 

 

Fair enough...

7 minutes ago, nosejob said:

I don't get the Gabe hate. Playoff record in K.C.?  Titans game this year? Wasn't he dealing with calf/ankle issues for most of the year? I have plenty of faith in Gabe. I'm still pissed they let Dabol swipe Hodgins, but Gabe will have a better year next year. Should they stop trying to get elite talent?, no. I would rather have Pickens than James Cook, ( if that possibly could have happened) but I'm just a lowly fan of almost 50 years.

Hate? If you look at he poll from Bills Mafia at the beginning of the thread TBD is showing its love for Gabe Davis IMO.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

23 minutes ago, nosejob said:

I don't get the Gabe hate. Playoff record in K.C.?  Titans game this year? Wasn't he dealing with calf/ankle issues for most of the year? I have plenty of faith in Gabe. I'm still pissed they let Dabol swipe Hodgins, but Gabe will have a better year next year. Should they stop trying to get elite talent?, no. I would rather have Pickens than James Cook, ( if that possibly could have happened) but I'm just a lowly fan of almost 50 years.

I don't because he doesn't have elite traits. 

 

He runs two routes - the go and the comeback off the go, and he drops the ball. 

 

He's not going to become nimble, or fast enough to be significant (sub-4.45)

 

There is more too it than just Gabe:

1. Allen is in his prime right now

2. Stefon Diggs isn't going to be at his apex forever 

3. Slot was an absolute mess with McKenzie, Shakir and Beasley - none of them holding down that position

4. Numbers are going to matter as Kumerow, Beasley, Brown, Crowder are all FAs. 

 

 

I think the lesson from 2022 was you can't just bank on organic development, Allen needs more elite talent. 

 

Beane added Diggs and stopped. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Figster]

On a side note: heres someone to keep your eye on at WR in the upcoming draft. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Figster

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, Figster said:

On a side note heres someone to keep your eye on at WR in the upcoming draft. 

Until he runs a 4.31. 

 

Then magically all the GMs that saw the Combine is mostly for the medicals, will suddenly start talking about his elite speed. 

 

Then all of the sudden, Hyatt will be in the upper 1/2 of the first round. 

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Until he runs a 4.31. 

 

Then magically all the GMs that saw the Combine is mostly for the medicals, will suddenly start talking about his elite speed. 

 

Then all of the sudden, Hyatt will be in the upper 1/2 of the first round. 

This cat can flat out fly. I told myself I wouldn't get excited about a high round WR in the upcoming draft. Last guy I had my hopes on in Tee Higgins went to the team that kicked our ass in the playoffs. 

 

Well I am...

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, Figster said:

This cat can flat out fly. I told myself I wouldn't get excited about a high round WR in the upcoming draft. Last guy I had my hopes on in Tee Higgins went to the team that kicked our ass in the playoffs. 

 

Well I am...

If the Bills were able to select Hyatt and he joined the Bills, I do think part of his evaluation is the risk that he is just a faster Gabe Davis. 

 

It would lean into what Allen wants be ... aggressive deep thrower, but it could be limited. 

[H2o]

There have been some WR's drafted in the 5th or later since 2010 who have accomplished some things in this league. Antonio Brown, Marvin Jones, Stefon Diggs, Darren Waller was listed as a WR at Georgia Tech, Tyreke Hill, Marquez Valdes-Scantling, Hunter Renfrow, Darnell Mooney, and Isaiah Hodgins (small body of work, but he did have a semi-breakout this year with NY). Of course most of the WR groups around the league are made up of guys drafted higher, but Shakir has as good a shot as any if he puts in the work. We shall see, but I do not expect him to be more productive than Davis this year. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Just now, H2o said:

There have been some WR's drafted in the 5th or later since 2010 who have accomplished some things in this league. Antonio Brown, Marvin Jones, Stefon Diggs, Darren Waller was listed as a WR at Georgia Tech, Tyreke Hill, Marquez Valdes-Scantling, Hunter Renfrow, Darnell Mooney, and Isaiah Hodgins (small body of work, but he did have a semi-breakout this year with NY). Of course most of the WR groups around the league are made up of guys drafted higher, but Shakir has as good a shot as any if he puts in the work. We shall see, but I do not expect him to be more productive than Davis this year. 

The Bills just can't bank on that growth. 

 

They need to add more talent and speed up this learning curve. 

 

Diggs is in his late-prime now, Von Miller, the defense having to band aid the losses of Poyer now, etc. 

[Figster]

5 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If the Bills were able to select Hyatt and he joined the Bills, I do think part of his evaluation is the risk that he is just a faster Gabe Davis. 

 

It would lean into what Allen wants be ... aggressive deep thrower, but it could be limited. 

A much, much faster Gabe Davis.

 

What you say is true on the risk factor, but it would still be upgrading WR2

[H2o]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The Bills just can't bank on that growth. 

 

They need to add more talent and speed up this learning curve. 

 

Diggs is in his late-prime now, Von Miller, the defense having to band aid the losses of Poyer now, etc. 

I agree. I would like to see us sign someone like Jakobi Meyers in FA, along with drafting Zay Flowers in the 1st or Josh Downs in the 2nd. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

A much, much faster Gabe Davis.

 

What you say is true on the risk factor, but it would still be upgrading WR2

They'll have to put his snaps under true press coverage under a microscope and project how he would do against NFL corners. 

 

If he gets a free release and Allen has time, it does become big plays. 

 

And the way he is at 20 ypc, all it takes is couple of bombs a game for this pick to really ignite the offense. 

[WyoAZBillfan]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

So keep investing in more Defensive Line, Secondary and Running Back talent, and keep scabbing on the Offensive Line and WR? 

 

 

Didn’t say, imply or even mention that. Just asked a question. I’m in the camp off fix the O-line and the rest will come together much better. Of the players mentioned, how many of them had an actual good team to complement them all around. Big picture type stuff.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, WyoAZBillfan said:

Didn’t say, imply or even mention that. Just asked a question. I’m in the camp off fix the O-line and the rest will come together much better. Of the players mentioned, how many of them had an actual good team to complement them all around. Big picture type stuff.

So you're just advocating OL in Rounds 1, 2, 3 because we don't have the money to go big in FA. 

 

That's a great strategy too, as long as we aren't taking 1st Round Running Backs, and Safeties to replace Poyer or Linebackers to replace Edmunds I like that plan too. 

 

I do think we'll still find that our WRs aren't dynamic enough and Diggs isn't enough. 

[WyoAZBillfan]

Just now, Straight Hucklebuck said:

So you're just advocating OL in Rounds 1, 2, 3 because we don't have the money to go big in FA. 

 

That's a great strategy too, as long as we aren't taking 1st Round Running Backs, and Safeties to replace Poyer or Linebackers to replace Edmunds I like that plan too. 

 

I do think we'll still find that our WRs aren't dynamic enough and Diggs isn't enough. 

Not quite advocating that either. Just believe the lines must be fixed. One position I or player isn’t going to do it. Buffalo could’ve gotten Any number of named WRs this year and while I can’t predict what would’ve happened, my eyes tell me 17 didn’t have time to get the ball to anyone a lot of the time. Throw in the D failure and we’re absolute one dimensional with no time to be…one dimensional. 
i do concur with what your saying though. Just different views.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

On a side note: heres someone to keep your eye on at WR in the upcoming draft. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure Hyatt will still be there at pick 27 but if he is it's a no brainer selection. I see people overanalyzing his talent like they did with DK Metcalf. To me it's simple - he can out run everybody on the field, he's competitive, he has good hands. All of that and he isn't a 1st round talent because he played in a spread offense in college? Let's not overthink this. Elite athletic traits win at the NFL level. Technique can be taught.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by HappyDays

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I don't because he doesn't have elite traits. 

 

He runs two routes - the go and the comeback off the go, and he drops the ball. 

 

He's not going to become nimble, or fast enough to be significant (sub-4.45)

 

There is more too it than just Gabe:

1. Allen is in his prime right now

2. Stefon Diggs isn't going to be at his apex forever 

3. Slot was an absolute mess with McKenzie, Shakir and Beasley - none of them holding down that position

4. Numbers are going to matter as Kumerow, Beasley, Brown, Crowder are all FAs. 

 

 

I think the lesson from 2022 was you can't just bank on organic development, Allen needs more elite talent. 

 

Beane added Diggs and stopped. 

 

 

I'm never against them upgrading talent, but what could have Isaiah Hodgins possibly done vs. keeping some of the other no names on the p.s.?  Couldn't they have protected him? WR seems to be the one area where I think they'll build one hell of a unit this year. If we hit on one draft pick, cut the fat and maybe sign a FA,....or not, we'll be fine. Slot receiver don't mean much ( and I'm all in on Shakir) if Allen can't control the home run itch....and I'm hoping Dorsey matures and reigns this in.

 

Oline, WR, safety and possibly finding a Dareus somewhere in the draft would be great. I know this may be the wrong thread, but I would be looking to trade down with the Bears or Texans who have plenty of picks and try to get a high end 4th and fifth. ...ie 28 to the Texans for 34? and the 2nd pick in the 4th and 5th?

 

Maybe either take Noah Sewell who'll be the next Junior Seau or Dewand Jones and move Dion. I get it, he may not wanna play RT, but he should at least slide inside. Edmunds isn't Roquan, Warner or even Bolton. I rather use that money elsewhere. I digress...

Edited February 10, 2023 by nosejob

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 minutes ago, WyoAZBillfan said:

Not quite advocating that either. Just believe the lines must be fixed. One position I or player isn’t going to do it. Buffalo could’ve gotten Any number of named WRs this year and while I can’t predict what would’ve happened, my eyes tell me 17 didn’t have time to get the ball to anyone a lot of the time. Throw in the D failure and we’re absolute one dimensional with no time to be…one dimensional. 
i do concur with what your saying though. Just different views.

I think Round 1 WR, Round 2 OL, Round 3 OL is better than R1 OL, R2 OL, R2 WR, but as long as McDermott and Beane are stopped from continuing to pour draft resources into the defense I will be happy. 

 

You listen to these analysts and it's like we need to draft a DE, DT, S, LB, TE, we need a better RB1, and it's like guys, we have 6 picks......

 

3 minutes ago, nosejob said:

I'm never against them upgrading talent, but what could have Isaiah Hodgins possibly done vs. keeping some of the other no names on the p.s.?  Couldn't they have protected him? WR seems to be the one area where I think they'll build one hell of a unit this year. If we hit on one draft pick, cut the fat and maybe sign a FA,....or not, we'll be fine. Slot receiver don't mean much if Allen can't control the home run itch....and I'm hoping Dorsey matures and reigns this in.

 

Oline, WR, safety and possibly finding a Dareus somewhere in the draft would be great. I know this may be the wrong thread, but I would be looking to trade down with the Bears or Texans who have plenty of picks and try to get a high end 4th and fifth. ...ie 28 to the Texans for the 2nd pick in the 4th and 5th?

 

Maybe either take Noah Sewell who'll be the next Junior Seau or Dewand Jones and move Dion. I get it, he may not wanna play RT, but he should at least slide inside. Edmunds isn't Roquan, Warner or even Bolton. I rather use that money elsewhere. I digress...

Hodgins is not a factor. 

 

He runs a 4.64 and will never be a top WR. 

 

The top end is Housh, and the bottom end is David Nelson. 

 

He was hurt for two years. 

 

I'm not sad he's gone. 

 

On Dewand Jones, his looks like he tore up the Senior Bowl, so it's either Round 1 or trading up in Round 2 I think. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[HappyDays]

48 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If the Bills were able to select Hyatt and he joined the Bills, I do think part of his evaluation is the risk that he is just a faster Gabe Davis. 

 

Not just faster. He has a whole extra gear AND better hands than Davis. Those traits separate 1st round talent from 4th round talent. Also one scouting report I read said that he is also QB friendly in terms of adjusting routes and making himself an easy target. Davis is not very QB friendly IMO.

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, Figster said:

 Good point on the catch radius of Knox although being taller doesn't necessarily mean you high point a football better IMO. 

 

Fair enough...

Hate? If you look at he poll from Bills Mafia at the beginning of the thread TBD is showing its love for Gabe Davis IMO.

 Well there's a lot of negative posts on here about him

[Straight Hucklebuck]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Not just faster. He has a whole extra gear AND better hands than Davis. Those traits separate 1st round talent from 4th round talent. Also one scouting report I read said that he is also QB friendly in terms of adjusting routes and making himself an easy target. Davis is not very QB friendly IMO.

Yes. 

 

If he can stop faster than a runaway train that will be an improvement on Gabe. 

 

Also, in a private workout, our Staff can judge his ability to run routes, and I'm sure his team knows that will be a consistent question, so he'll be working on that. 

 

Regardless, I'm with you, once he runs a 4.31, he won't be available in the middle of the 2nd. 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Figster said:

My memories not he greatest and I'm fine with positives about Davis. Tight hips and lower body will alwys limit Gabe Davis's route running capabilities IMO. Limitions Shakir does not have IMO. Both Davis and Knox run a 4.5 or above forty. Shakir is faster then Knox, Davis and Diggs. 

 

He may have some limitations and I agree with some of it, but he also put up 832 yards and 8 TDs.  There were a lot of 2nd WRs with less than that...I am not saying we perhaps will be able to do better, but let's not pretend this dude is some scrub off the practice squad either.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Big Turk

[Figster]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Until he runs a 4.31. 

 

Then magically all the GMs that saw the Combine is mostly for the medicals, will suddenly start talking about his elite speed. 

 

Then all of the sudden, Hyatt will be in the upper 1/2 of the first round. 

 Its possible Buffalo's GM Brandon Beane may need to work some magic If the Bills really want this guy. 

[nosejob]

4 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think Round 1 WR, Round 2 OL, Round 3 OL is better than R1 OL, R2 OL, R2 WR, but as long as McDermott and Beane are stopped from continuing to pour draft resources into the defense I will be happy. 

 

You listen to these analysts and it's like we need to draft a DE, DT, S, LB, TE, we need a better RB1, and it's like guys, we have 6 picks......

 

Hodgins is not a factor. 

 

He runs a 4.64 and will never be a top WR. 

 

The top end is Housh, and the bottom end is David Nelson. 

 

He was hurt for two years. 

 

I'm not sad he's gone. 

 

On Dewand Jones, his looks like he tore up the Senior Bowl, so it's either Round 1 or trading up in Round 2 I think. 

 

 

At this point I wouldn't be mad if they took Jones at 28....or Branch... or Rice. ..( have no idea who will be there). I'm gonna trust them as long as they don't trade from 59 to 70 something for a 7th round pick. None to happy last year with the trade downs. IMO it wouldn't hurt to use next year's picks to move up....not in the 1st, but for Pete's sake drafting 28th in every round is a beeyatch.

 

However, if they can trade down from 28  to Chicago, the Texans or Cards and get a 4th and 5th at the top of those rounds, that'd be cool.

Edited February 10, 2023 by nosejob

[OldTimer1960]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If the Bills were able to select Hyatt and he joined the Bills, I do think part of his evaluation is the risk that he is just a faster Gabe Davis. 

 

It would lean into what Allen wants be ... aggressive deep thrower, but it could be limited. 

I haven’t seen drops as a criticism of Hyatt.  I think the thing that is concerning about Hyatt is that he has done little except run long from the slot and there is more to being a very good NFL WR than that.  I am confident that Hyatt can be a deep threat from the slot, but the risk is that he might not be more than that.  He might be capable of more than that, but I don’t think there is any evidence to support that.  

[blacklabel]

Can't wait to see so many people hype him up all off-season and then dump all over him after he has a season that falls below their expectations. It'll still probably be like a solid 55 receptions for 850 yards and say 5 TDs but peeps will be like, "He shoulda caught 90! Shoulda went well over 1200 yards! Bust!" But I digress...

 

As for him not playing as much as fans would like, I recall reading that he was struggling as a blocker and was still getting acclimated to the scheme and all that. He had a few mental errors earlier in the season. I'm sure he'll be fine, he seems to catch nearly everything thrown at him. I'd imagine he's well within their plans for 2023 and will get more snaps.