How did the Patriots maintain a top team for 17 years?

[TampaBillsJunkie]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

Sounds like KC's road lately. I thought the AFC West was going to be tough, but its 2nd worst in the AFC.  Both AFC/NFC South was a joke. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by TampaBillsJunkie

[AuntieEm]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

1. Brady

2. Coaching BB as a coach is great

3. Smart FA signing at the right time. Moss & Welker 07, Gilmore 17, Corey Dillon 2004, etc.. when NE went to the FA for a star caliber player it fit their scheme to a T normally and gave great dividends

4. Took advantage of extra draft picks before other teams started doing so which allowed a greater hit rate on players outside of the 1st round

5. AFC East was garbage

6. Secured the #1 seed an insane number of times which allowed a far easier path to the SB.  They only lost once at home in the AFC title game (BAL 2012), by comparison on the road they were 3-3.

 

  Well their road record was due to not having any ability to jam the opponents helmet communication with their players.  They have all they need at Foxborough to mess with the radio signals so it disrupts the game for opponents.

Edited February 6, 2023 by AuntieEm

[Pbomb]

Don’t forget cheating 

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, TampaBillsJunkie said:

Sounds like KC's road lately. I thought the AFC West was going to be tough, but its 2nd worst in the AFC.  Both AFC/NFC South was a joke. 

 

I also thought the AFCW would be tough. The Chargers always seem to give them a tough time, but they almost always lose.

[US Egg]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   I would take Montana over him every single time.

    Let little Tommy take the hits JM was subject to…..and see how it turns out. Oh, that’s right, we saw that with the Giants and Eagles😜

Well, being you’re just a boy, I understand your behavior.

[Thrivefourfive]

The AFC East

[ChasBB]

By trading players still in their prime, but closer to the end of their prime, for draft picks.  Beane should try it.

[SoCal Deek]

Like most things, this too isn’t complicated. Before Brady they’re a decent but floundering franchise….nothing special or feared. Then, with Tom Brady as their quarterback they’re in, or winning, championships. And finally when Brady leaves, they’re right back to nothing special or feared…again. 
Period! 

[Mynamemike]

2 hours ago, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

Belichick never hesitated to trade guys for maximum value.  Chandler Jones was one that comes to mind.  Great player, they weren’t going to be able to pay him so they dealt him for a first. Our staff seems so loyal to guys that’ll they hold on to them instead of letting young guys get reps and getting something in return.  
 

also Brady always had a top tier slot guy and good tight ends his whole career.  Welker, Edelman, Amandola, Troy Brown etc.  

[Billl]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'd add that for most of their run there weren't as many talented QB's in the NFL as there are today.    And certainly not as diversely skilled both in terms of passing and running...........the latter of which has always been an achilles heel of Belichicks' defenses.

 

6 of the 7 teams that made the AFC playoffs this year did so largely because they had MVP or even HOF type talent at QB.........injury kept one of them out(Jackson)..........Miami with Tua is the only exception and he was outperforming all of them at one point in the season.

 

During most of Brady's career there were only 3-5 extraordinary QB's at any given time in the entire league.    He basically just had to beat Manning and/or Roethlisberger to get to a SB.  

 

I'm certainly not complaining because if it didn't get easier to find a QB the bumbling Bills franchise that traded Mahomes away would probably not have gotten one........but it's not as easy to get thru the AFC now as it was for a long time prior, IMO.   

I think you could make a case that there were more elite QBs then than now.  Brady, Manning, Ben, Favre/Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Rivers, etc.

 

There are 3 right now.

[SACTOBILLSFAN]

All that writing and the answer is Tom Brady. Belicheck blows, they haven't drafted well ever, Brady was just that good. 

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

Belichik rode the TB12 coat tails. He's a garbage executive who didn't supplement the offense around Brady except for 1 year, but Brady was simply that good.

[Jauronimo]

15 minutes ago, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

All that writing and the answer is Tom Brady. Belicheck blows, they haven't drafted well ever, Brady was just that good. 

Belichik rode the TB12 coat tails. He's a garbage executive who didn't supplement the offense around Brady except for 1 year, but Brady was simply that good.

This Bills team wins a super bowl last year with Belichick at HC.

[Success]

28 minutes ago, Billl said:

I think you could make a case that there were more elite QBs then than now.  Brady, Manning, Ben, Favre/Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Rivers, etc.

 

There are 3 right now.

 

The QB situation in the AFC is WAY better now.  Brady basically had to get past Manning to get to the SB.  Rivers never had the teams to compete, and wasn't close to Brady/Manning level. Big Ben was never in the top tier, imo.

 

The AFC is completely stacked right now.  Maybe there are only 3 at the "elite" level, but there are 3-4 more knocking on that door.  The QB play is so much better today than it was 10 years ago.

 

[PatsFanNH]

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

This is true! What is also true is Brady ALWAYS took less than fair market value on his contracts. So they always had more money to spend on other positions. I truly fed Rogers as great as he was kept his team from winning because of his insane contracts, I also think the Colts would have won more if they spent a little bit on D. 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

I think you could make a case that there were more elite QBs then than now.  Brady, Manning, Ben, Favre/Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Rivers, etc.

 

There are 3 right now.

 

There were about 11 elite QB's in the NFL for varying lengths of time in the 2 decades prior to when Mahomes/Watson entered the league and started a several year run of multi-talented QB's entering the NFL.

 

And it was pretty well split evenly between conferences during that period that began with Manning, Warner and Brady all arriving as star players between 1998-2001.

 

But there is more depth/talent in the AFC now than there has ever been and the athleticism is off the charts as well.

 

Whether they are elite or not at the moment is debatable..........for instance I'm sure you don't think Herbert is in there but his stats say otherwise.

 

And not all of the players you listed were elite all throughout their careers or at the same time either........Favre and Rodgers were elite at the same time for 1 season, for instance.   Same with Ben and Mahomes.   Rivers was inconsistent for the last 10 years of his career etc..

 

    

[BullBuchanan]

The greatest coach of all-time and the greatest QB of all-time. It's not that complicated and it's unlikely to ever happen again. If Andy Reid was 20 years younger maybe.

[djp14150]

3 hours ago, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

They paid off the refs….

 

they had staff steal signals and calls….

 

in general…if you can go 5-2 in your division you have a >95% chance of making the playoffs.  Since the 8 division format, only snout 4-5 teams missed it after going 5-1. Detroit this year was the latest.  This percentage could have been higher if they didn’t do the final game be divisional game where team might be 4-1 in division, locked in their seed, so they rest everyone.

 

you need to make the right personnel decisions on who to sign/ keep and who goes.

 

if you are a very good team, many vets will sign for less to get to the super bowl

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by djp14150

[Jeffbigalls]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

You can divide their years into three different buckets:

 

Early dominance: 2001 to 2004. They won 3 superbowls in 4 years.

 

Middle Less Dominant: 2005 to 2013. No superbowl wins. They were somewhat like our Bills today, not getting over the hump in the playoffs. They were even one-and-done in the playoffs two times during this stretch. They did get there twice, but lost to the Giants both times.

 

Late Dominance: 2014 to 2020. Everything clicked again for a few years. They won 4 more superbowls during this stretch.

 

Tom Brady is the big reason they won so much. He is the GOAT. He also took a discount for much of those years. They also had successful schemes and knew how to bring in role players to fit specific roles in the offense. They didn't always draft particularly well, but they were good at bringing in value free agents and made trades or signed big time players at the right time to help get over the hump (Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Stephon Gilmore, etc.)

2014 to 2020 they won 3 super bowls 

1 hour ago, Pbomb said:

Don’t forget cheating 

They didn't cheat

[Alphadawg7]

Simple they weren't saddled by Fraziers terrible defensive scheme and an OC allergic to running the ball who can't call an offense in the redzone or use his personnel correctly.  

[Gregg]

42 minutes ago, Success said:

 

The QB situation in the AFC is WAY better now.  Brady basically had to get past Manning to get to the SB.  Rivers never had the teams to compete, and wasn't close to Brady/Manning level. Big Ben was never in the top tier, imo.

 

The AFC is completely stacked right now.  Maybe there are only 3 at the "elite" level, but there are 3-4 more knocking on that door.  The QB play is so much better today than it was 10 years ago.

 

 

If you look back at the Pats dynasty. There were 4 teams that were challenging them in the AFC. During the 1st half of the run, it was the Colts and Ravens. With Indy you had Brady vs Manning. With the Ravens it was the Brady vs the Lewis led D. Then when Manning went to Denver it was the Pats vs Broncos. The Steelers also played them in big games as it was Brady vs Ben. The Colts, Ravens, Broncos, Steelers were bigger rivals to the Pats then anyone currently in the AFCE. Even the Giants frustrated NE more than the Bills, Dolphins, Jets ever did during their dynasty run.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Gregg