No Joe Bus, Burrow did not surpass Allen based on yesterday

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

37 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

He isnt a better regular season Quarterback.   But its starting to get really hard to argue the kid isnt better in the playoffs.  He is 5-5 in playoff games, and is one game away from being in his 2nd Super Bowl.  When QBs are remembered long term, no one brings up their supporting casts at the top of the argument.    By the end of next year we could be talking about Burrow being a better all around QB, but at the moment it goes Mahomes then Allen.

 

Like it or not, the national narrative around Josh right now is whether he is the next Philip Rivers.

Dan Marino is always mentioned as having a crap supporting cast. Jim Kelly is the other way around. 

[mjt328]

Many people seem blindsided by Sunday's loss. 

One of the reasons is because they (incorrectly) assume that Josh Allen gives us some otherworldly advantage over everyone else in the NFL.  They listen to Tony Romo gush over our QB and are convinced that us eventually winning a ring with him under center is an absolute certainty.

 

The problem is... Allen is (at best) an equal to Patrick Mahomes.  An argument can certainly be made that Joe Burrow has now reached that level as well.  Justin Herbert has the talent to get there.  If Deshaun Watson returns to form, he's right there too.  And that's not even mentioning the tremendous improvement we saw from Tua Tagovailoa and Trevor Lawrence this season.

 

When it comes to the AFC especially, Allen only puts us on an equal playing field as the other teams with elite/franchise QBs.  Every single postseason is going to be a gauntlet through the names above.  When we hit the playoffs, what sets apart the Buffalo Bills isn't going to be Allen, but the surrounding pieces.  The coaching.  The blocking.  The weapons.  The defense. 

 

Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl... not because he was a worse QB than Jim Kelly and John Elway... but because his TEAM wasn't good enough to get past those guys in the playoffs.  You can say the same thing about Warren Moon (same era).  Or Phillip Rivers, who always watched Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger from the couch.

 

 

[appoo]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I think Dorsey is calling the plays, but Allen is taking the shots downfield anyways. At least that is the way it looks via A22. I think this is where Dorsey and Daboll go their separate ways, Daboll would chew Josh out in those moments. Dorsey seems to relish Allen's physicality.

 

Allen is so clunky throwing underneath. It always comes late into the play and the WR, RB, TE etc always seems to be flatfooted by the time he throws the ball. Neither OC puts Allen under center often. Daboll said it helped Josh read the defense better. But it is year 5 and Allen still never takes snaps from under center and is still one of the worst QB's in the league against zone. I think both are a big reason why the underneath stuff looks clunky. It isn't just long developing plays, it is taking too much time to process and he bails himself out with athleticism.

One thing I never seem to see Dorsey call is the curl routes that Allen used to love throwing to Diggs. 

The zone defense has some evidence, but we also have evidence that he's good against it to. We say this play out in 2020, which happened to be the last time Allen had an elite slot WR. Don't think that's coincidence

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, appoo said:

The zone defense has some evidence, but we also have evidence that he's good against it to. We say this play out in 2020, which happened to be the last time Allen had an elite slot WR. Don't think that's coincidence

 

We struggled against zone in 2020 too. Beasley helped, but it was still an issue.  

 

 

[appoo]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Burrow went to the Super Bowl with last years line.

Ok, let's look at this real quick.

 

vs Raiders; 24 - 34 244 yards, 2 TDs,

vs Tenn; 28 - 37, 1 INT, 19 points

vs KC; 23 - 28, 250, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 27 points (OT), 

vs LA; 22-33, 263, 1 TD

 

Now take a look at how Josh Allen performed in those playoffs, as well as against that same Chiefs team which had Burrow mostly contained. He was an above average QB in the playoffs last season, and their defense and some luck, and timely playmaking by Burrow, were why they managed to get to the SB. 

 

These playoffs Burrow has been excellent, but not yet at the same level that Mahomes and Allen showed in past playoffs

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

 

 In 6 playoff games now Joe still hasn't thrown as many tds as Allen did in 2 playoff games last year, even with far better weapons. He led an offense last postseason that had to kick twice as many fgs as tds scored. 14 fgs last postseason in 4 games while having the best WR trio in the league. 

 

 He's benefited from great defensive & special teams support in the playoffs. His coaching staff is far superior to ours also. You could make a good argument that they don't win last week without the defense bailing him out. Last year it was the refs bailing him out in the WC round. They don't seem to play well in round 1 for whatever reason.

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

56 minutes ago, CDogg20 said:

Burrow is a stud.

 

so is Allen.

 

i hate to say it but until proven otherwise its Mahomes at the top then Josh and Joe as 2a and 2b

And if McDermott continues to ignore the offense,  Josh will drop to 3 in the AFC.  What Sean has done neglecting this OL for 6 years is his stupidity to own.

[Scott7975]

All 3 are elite QBs.  It doesnt matter who is marginally better than who.  All 3 have different skill sets and things they are better at than the other.

 

The Bills just need to surround Allen with more talent and get an oline that can protect him better.  Then they will win a SB.  Stop worrying about being this one piece away on defense to beat the Chiefs.  That ship has sailed.  Other teams are catching up.  Its time to be the team that rarely gets stopped on offense and a defense that is just good enough at making a key stop here and there.

[Calidiehard]

34 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Better to show you can get there than to constantly fail in advancing there at all.  

Is it though? You're still a lover at the end of the year. And as we know as Bills fans the only thing that makes those 90's teams special is that nobody else has ever made it to 4 consecutive.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 minutes ago, appoo said:

Ok, let's look at this real quick.

 

vs Raiders; 24 - 34 244 yards, 2 TDs,

vs Tenn; 28 - 37, 1 INT, 19 points

vs KC; 23 - 28, 250, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 27 points (OT), 

vs LA; 22-33, 263, 1 TD

 

Now take a look at how Josh Allen performed in those playoffs, as well as against that same Chiefs team which had Burrow mostly contained. He was an above average QB in the playoffs last season, and their defense and some luck, and timely playmaking by Burrow, were why they managed to get to the SB. 

 

These playoffs Burrow has been excellent, but not yet at the same level that Mahomes and Allen showed in past playoffs

 

 I agree with everything but he was an above average QB in the playoffs last year. 5 td passes on 42 drives in the playoffs, only 7 offensive tds total. That's a 16.6% td rate, while kicking 14 fgs. QB Rating was a pretty average 97.7(Josh's was 149.0), I think low to mid 90s was the average last year during the regular season. We also know a 50.0 in QBR is average QB play and his QBR during the postseason last year was 51, Josh's was over 95. 

 

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

Burrow is a fine qb with a better support system around him  Bengals dont trot him out and expect hole shots downfield and him being a power runner just to give the team a chance  Only this team can surround their qb with a hot dumpster fire for 4 years and not see the problem

[Donuts and Doritos]

Mahomes - 5 AFC games 2 SB appear 1 win

Burrow - 2 AFC games 1 SB appear

Allen - 1 AFC game

 

If Burrow wins the SB he's w/ Mahomes & they are both passed Allen who can't even make 1. I know supporting cast & team yada yada yada. But it's a QB league, they get the glory & the blame. History will not see him as being as good as them if they have titles & he doesn't.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Donuts and Doritos

[Donuts and Doritos]

Neither over the hill player, want new & exciting.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

And they werent good.

 

And we've been dealing with "Sugar Josh vs Angry Josh" for years.

 

Still love Allen, would commit crimes for him. But Burrow is far more consistent week in and week out. Never have to wonder which Joe is showing up.

 

Still love you, Josh!

They were good enough that he could stand in the pocket and make passes to receivers instead of having make his line look good on the stats sheet by running for his life.

 

They can rank the bills line top 10 but that's all because of Allen and his ability to escape and make throws or run.

 

Burrow doesn't have to do that is the point.

[Shortchaz]

45 minutes ago, appoo said:

Ok, let's look at this real quick.

 

vs Raiders; 24 - 34 244 yards, 2 TDs,

vs Tenn; 28 - 37, 1 INT, 19 points

vs KC; 23 - 28, 250, 2 TDs, 1 INT, 27 points (OT), 

vs LA; 22-33, 263, 1 TD

 

Now take a look at how Josh Allen performed in those playoffs, as well as against that same Chiefs team which had Burrow mostly contained. He was an above average QB in the playoffs last season, and their defense and some luck, and timely playmaking by Burrow, were why they managed to get to the SB. 

 

These playoffs Burrow has been excellent, but not yet at the same level that Mahomes and Allen showed in past playoffs

This reminds me of people trying to say Peyton manning is a better quarterback than Tom Brady because he has better arm talent. 
 

it’s an argument of definition and opinion. It’s a waste of time, you play to win the game. 

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, appoo said:

I think that's the correct take, but not remotely what Joe was saying

 

 

Well, what Joe actually was saying about Allen and Burrow was two things, neither of which was that Burrow was a better QB than Allen.

 

The first was that Burrow in this game passed Allen by. Can anyone argue with that? Seems obviously true to me.

 

The second was that Burrow has usurped Allen's spot as the adversary to Mahomes. That also seems obviously true to me.

 

 

[corta765]

Josh hasn't won a SB, Josh hasn't won an AFC title. He has played in one AFC title game which was now 2 seasons ago whereas the other two are rematching again.

 

Until he does Mahomes and Burrow are both ahead of him.

[Sharky7337]

Sorry but he's right. Joe Burrow has made it to the SB. And may go back. Allen hasn't sniffed the SB outside if nachos at a watch party.

[ddaryl]

17 hours ago, appoo said:

Joe Bus (whom I'm a fan of), in his weekly observations athletic article, said Burrow had surpassed Josh Allen. 

 

Now, you won't ever see me denigrate Joe Burrow. Awesome QB, and it's possible he is a better franchise QB than Allen. But using yesterday as the basis for that observation is an absurdity. 

 

In the regular season Burrow and Allen had the same amount of TD passes (Josh added a bunch of rushing TDs). 

 

This is who Burrow was throwing to:

Ja'Marr Chase (generational talent)

Tee Higginns (Borderline #1 Talent)

Tyler Boyd (possibly the best slot in the NFL)

Hayden Hurst (top 5 TE)

PLUS - Joe Mixon, a premier RB

 

This is Josh Allen's cast

Stefon Diggs - elite WR

Gabe Dabis - wildly inconsistent, only caught 50% of his targets

Cornucopia of sadness at the slot

Dawson Knox - a TE the OC didn't really want in the game plan, but otherwise a top 5 TE

PLUS - the run game, and I'll let that stand on it's own

 

This is just unfair to Allen. Again is Burrow supremely talented, and is possibly better than Allen? Possibly! Using yesterday's game as evidence? Because Joe could simply operate the offense in a fairly easy way with an outstanding run game vs Allen having to play superman in overcoming horrible OLine play, and a hugely average WR corps, and an unused run game? 

 

That is the hottest of hot takes

 

 

 

this is the way it works.. You win you get noticed and you get accolades

 

just like lots of people are now saying Allen is fraud and has been exposed... it doesn't matter what we think, what matters is how many AFC Conference titles and SBs you've been to. When you beat up a team with another solid QB and make it look easy you leap frog and rightfully so.

 

If Allen is to be considered the best he is going to need a new OC and he needs to adapt his game to something a little diffeent because the Daboll/Dorsey Offense designed for Allen has been figured out and if we do not change it will be a real long 2023.  Daboll/Dorsey offense is mostly about sending WRs deep or on outs keeping the middle of the field clear so Allen had scramble options, when opposing Ds take that away and our Coaches having no adjustments ready screwed this team over.

Also if Allen is going to have a chance at the greatness we envision for him our management team has to take their collective heads out of their asses and actually build an OL and develop some more consistent WRs

Edited January 24, 2023 by ddaryl

[Solomon Grundy]

17 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

He's not completely wrong.

 

Any fan can make arguments for Mahomes, Burrow, Allen being 1-2-3 in any order. Burrow stays cool and gets the job done, Allen is all over the place.

 

Chase missed a handful of games too (at least 4 I believe).

Could it be due to the management of Burrow opposed to the management of Allen? It seems that Burrow's team makes life much easier for him than Josh's team do. I think people under value the need for a THREAT at RB to a QB. Pure example is the Dallas Cowboys. As soon as Pollard went down, so did there chances of winning. Nobody is scared of Zeke anymore. Motor is a "good" RB, but he doesn't put the fear in any defense around the league. Cook isn't built to be a bell cow RB. Get Bijan!! 

[appoo]

Responding in general, and repeating:

 

Wins are not a QB Statistic

[Brand J]

With regards to Mahomes and Burrow, I think it’s fair to say that Allen doesn’t have the advantage over either QB in accuracy, ball placement, timing, touch, and field vision. He is a better runner than the two but has the lowest floor. When he’s been bad, he’s bad. McD mentioned in his presser that everyone needs to improve, including his QB, if they’re to take the next step. With that being said, this loss to the Bengals wasn’t at all on Josh. 

[Don Otreply]

Like it or not JB and the Bengals have done what JA and the Bills have not done, beat KC in the playoffs, and go to the super bowl, and they are likely to do it again this post season.  So yes, JB has passed JA, sucks, but it is what it is. And it is on Beane and McDermotts hands that it has happened this way.