I've come to accept our offensive scheme relies on Allen too much

[Billz4ever]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

It's taken me a while but our scheme just basically relies on Allen to be a superhero too much. Basically if he is off, or the other team has a great scheme against him, we have a hard time consistently playing well on offense.

 

Sure we will get our plays because Allen is still Allen. But it's got to the point that we need to stop taking that for granted and get him some help. 

 

It's like when you have a great worker who can make up for 3 people being out by piling more work on him.

 

Sure...that works for a while but then you eventually burn that worker out and when something comes up that needs all his attention other areas start failing since he can't bail them out.

 

I guess what I am saying is we need more answers on offense that don't include Josh Allen being an alien, because our offense relies on that more than any other in the NFL.

 

The understatement of the century.

 

What's an easy test? What would this offense look like with Keenum at the helm?  Scary thought.

 

Look at KC on the otherhand...Mahomes goes down, Henne comes in and they march down the field and score.  Mahomes doesn't have to play superman (although he can if necessary) because they have an offensive minded coach that uses schemes that work. 

 

Our schemes look like they work, but it's not the schemes. It's Josh quite often on the run, creating on his own, and usually on the fly.  

 

Our "schemes" are something along the lines of "we make it up as we go".

Edited January 23, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Matt_In_NH]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

That went out the window when the defense gave up two long, time consuming touch down drives to start the game. From that point on time and possessions were at a premium. 

That is a panic mentality which is kind of what it looked like. 

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

The understatement of the century.

 

What's an easy test? What would this offense look like with Keenum at the helm?  Scary thought.

 

Look at KC on the otherhand...Mahomes goes down, Henne comes in and they march down the field and score.  Mahomes doesn't have to play superman because they have an offensive minded coach that uses schemes that works. 

 

Our schemes look like they work, but it's not the schemes. It's Josh quite often on the run, creating on his own, and usually on the fly.  

 

Our "schemes" are something along the lines of "we make it up as we go".

 

And how long has Reid been doing it? It's funny to think that people think a guy automatically had all the answers after his first season and then just stayed the same for 30 years.

 

You don't think Reid took some lumps his first few years calling plays and learned from failures?

 

So basically people think that a first year coach has no way to ever get any better. That they are simply who they are for however long they coach.

 

I say that's complete and utter BS. It would be like saying a player has no ability to improve at all after his rookie year.

 

FYI, it took Reid 12 years to run an offense as successful as the one Dorsey just ran this year statistically.

 

His first year? 25th in points, 30th in yards(aka Dead last).

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Best Williams Available]

4 minutes ago, colin said:

 

 

Fact dude.

 

We have had worse seasons wrt how we ended them since 2020 w our loss at KC.

 

Our d was ranked 2 in 2018, with young scrubs who we ended up paying.

 

Our team is like a one note band, and we can't adapt.  That's on coaching and the fo.

We have the anti-Andy Reid situation in Philly. He had great scheme but no elite QB talent and got stuck at NFC championship. Took that same scheme to KC with elite QB and tons of wins and SB.
 

McD has bad schemes but elite QB and is getting stuck at AFC division/championship. Either we fire him for a guy with better schemes, or we get elite personnel that make the bad schemes work. Gotta breakthrough.

[Maine-iac]

Every team that has played well this weekend has given it to a rb 15 to 20 times not 5 or 6 times.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

It's taken me a while but our scheme just basically relies on Allen to be a superhero too much. Basically if he is off, or the other team has a great scheme against him, we have a hard time consistently playing well on offense.

 

Sure we will get our plays because Allen is still Allen. But it's got to the point that we need to stop taking that for granted and get him some help. 

 

It's like when you have a great worker who can make up for 3 people being out by piling more work on him.

 

Sure...that works for a while but then you eventually burn that worker out and when something comes up that needs all his attention other areas start failing since he can't bail them out.

 

I guess what I am saying is we need more answers on offense that don't include Josh Allen being an alien, because our offense relies on that more than any other in the NFL.

 

I think there’s an underlying assumption here that when Josh makes a wow throw it’s because that’s the throw he has to make. 
 

I’ll have to rewatch this game, but in the all-22’s I’ve watched this season that isn’t the case.

 

I think Dorsey and Allen are too similar and too aggressive of a pairing. I think he needs harder coaching to get him to operate not just in the confines of the play, but within the limits of the down, distance, series, and game. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

Josh wants to do crazy things. When you have a kid that acts out, he needs more discipline and structure. Not someone to enable them and say yea do whatever you want. It's chaos out there

He has NO choice but to do "crazy things".  It's the only chance our offense has.  And agonizingly a lot of the crazy stuff he does works. Sure it's chaotic but it's the reason the Bills won 14 games. But in the end the lack of complimentary talent on the offense dooms the Bills against the best teams.

 

 

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Every team that has played well this weekend has given it to a rb 15 to 20 times not 5 or 6 times.

And every team that played well this weekend didn't have a defense that let up two long TD drives ion their opponents first two drives of the game.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

Pundits like Cowherd and many others have said it all season. We're too Josh Allen Centric. No OL, No consistent run attack.  1 reliable wr who might be morphing back to a diva?  This is ALL on McDermott. 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, Best Williams Available said:

We have the anti-Andy Reid situation in Philly. He had great scheme but no elite QB talent and got stuck at NFC championship. Took that same scheme to KC with elite QB and tons of wins and SB.
 

McD has bad schemes but elite QB and is getting stuck at AFC division/championship. Either we fire him for a guy with better schemes, or we get elite personnel that make the bad schemes work. Gotta breakthrough.

 

But it took him a long time to develop that scheme. A lot longer than a year. 

 

Dorsey may end up not being a great OC. But assuredly we do not know that after his first year.

 

Because if you just looked at what OCs did in their first year, his was one of the best first years in NFL history and far far better than Daboll or Reid's. It was 12 years until Reid ran an offense as good as the one Dorsey ran this year. His first year he was dead last in the NFL in offense.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Maine-iac]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

He has NO choice but to do "crazy things".  It's the only chance our offense has.  And agonizingly a lot of the crazy stuff he does works. Sure it's chaotic but it's the reason the Bills won 14 games. But in the end the lack of complimentary talent on the offense dooms the Bills against the best teams.

 

 

This just isn't true.  The go big all the time and hit it more often than other teams but still miss frequently.  Meanwhile there are tons of easier shorter throws Josh doesn't take and I'm guessing half a million runs called that he audibles out of.  Sometimes you have to commit to the grind so teams can't commit to meeting in the backfield at your QB on every play.  The Bengals didn't blitz the secondary as much as they did because they thought we were running or throwing screens.  They did that because they know we throw all the damn time and Josh loves to hold the ball.

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

And how long has Reid been doing it? It's funny to think that people think a guy automatically had all the answers after his first season and then just stayed the same for 30 years.

 

You don't think Reid took some lumps his first few years calling plays and learned from failures?

 

So basically people think that a first year coach has no way to ever get any better. That they are simply who they are for however long they coach.

 

I say that's complete and utter BS. It would be like saying a player has no ability to improve at all after his rookie year.

 

FYI, it took Reid 12 years to run an offense as successful as the one Dorsey just ran this year statistically.

 

His first year? 25th in points, 30th in yards(aka Dead last).

But as you already alluded to, how much of that is Josh creating on the fly?

 

It doesn't help when your starting O-line looks like cardboard cutouts. I'm sure Dorsey's offense looks much better if the QB doesn't have pressure in his face at the same time he's getting the snap.

 

I'm not saying that Dorsey will never get it, but many times this year, it seems like his awareness of situational football and calling the correct plays for the down and distance was lacking.

[Best Williams Available]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

But it took him a long time to develop that scheme. A lot longer than a year. 

 

Dorsey may end up not being a great OC. But assuredly we do not know that after his first year.

 

Because if you just looked at what OCs did in their first year, his was one of the best first years in NFL history and far far better than Daboll or Reid's. It was 12 years until Reid ran an offense as good as the one Dorsey ran this year. His first year he was dead last in the NFL in offense.

Agreed! For the record I like Dorsey and hope we keep him.
 

This was more comparing McD being HC to Reid in Philly (who Sean worked for). Reid would probably be out of a job if not for Mahomes. I’m saying all the pieces matter. I’m also saying we have an elite QB NOW, and might not have time to wait for Sean to grow on the job.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

But as you already alluded to, how much of that is Josh creating on the fly?

 

It doesn't help when your starting O-line looks like cardboard cutouts. I'm sure Dorsey's offense looks much better if the QB doesn't have pressure in his face at the same time he's getting the snap.

 

I'm not saying that Dorsey will never get it, but many times this year, it seems like his awareness of situational football and calling the correct plays for the down and distance was lacking.

 

You mean he looked like a rookie?

 

Well...he was.

[thenorthremembers]

Greg Cosell said it on OBL.  The Bills offense is based in a state of chaos.   There is no rhyme or reason to it.   When the Bills were really cooking in 2020-2021 you saw an offense fully developed and a QB thriving in it.   Right now, its snap the ball and hope Josh can do something with it after the play breaks down.  They need some cohesion.   

[Billz4ever]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

You mean he looked like a rookie?

 

Well...he was.

So the question you have to ask yourself is do you want a rookie OC running your offense when you're trying to win a Championship.

 

Even with the JA17 alien we have at QB, it wasn't anywhere near good enough this year.

[streetkings01]

Honestly from week 1 to the playoff debacle I had no idea what our identity was on offense. All we did was drop back and pass 80% of the time, the other 20% was a handoff to a RB or Josh scrambling. 

[LABILLBACKER]

6 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

But as you already alluded to, how much of that is Josh creating on the fly?

 

It doesn't help when your starting O-line looks like cardboard cutouts. I'm sure Dorsey's offense looks much better if the QB doesn't have pressure in his face at the same time he's getting the snap.

 

I'm not saying that Dorsey will never get it, but many times this year, it seems like his awareness of situational football and calling the correct plays for the down and distance was lacking.

Dorsey looked like a deer in the headlights most of this season. I think both he and Frazier are gone. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

This just isn't true.  The go big all the time and hit it more often than other teams but still miss frequently.  Meanwhile there are tons of easier shorter throws Josh doesn't take and I'm guessing half a million runs called that he audibles out of.  Sometimes you have to commit to the grind so teams can't commit to meeting in the backfield at your QB on every play.  The Bengals didn't blitz the secondary as much as they did because they thought we were running or throwing screens.  They did that because they know we throw all the damn time and Josh loves to hold the ball.

This is not true.  The Bills don't run screens because their talent can't execute them.  Almost EVERY screen I've seen this year ends with Allen grounding the ball at the feet of a RB surrounded by defenders.

 

As for all the so called "easier shorter throws" Allen isn't taking I call BS.  Allen made a number of short throws today and how many times, on a slippery field, did our WR's/RB's make the defender miss? I counted once by McKenzie.  

 

The Bills don't have the O line or RB talent to "commit to the grind". 

 

Allen doesn't hold on to the ball to long.  He is running for his life on half his pass attempts.  And it's those big time throws that help us win most of the games we're in. With the talent we have on offense if Allen played the way you want we would not have had a winning record let along claimed a division title and made it to the divisional payoffs.

 

 

[Maine-iac]

By the end of the season they were playing Josh the way they played Tyrod.  Blitz him to keep him in the pocket and since he isn't throwing hot or beating you with short throws you beat the hell out of him and sooner or later cause turnovers.

[Billz4ever]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

Dorsey looked like a deer in the headlights most of this season. I think both he and Frazier are gone. 

I would really be shocked if they are, but I can't say disappointed.  I think we can do better on both.

[RyanC883]

screw it.  Let's draft two DE's who disappear or never appear w/o Von Miller around, and skip on two pro-bowl centers instead like in the 2021 draft.  What's the OL for anyway.  or a running game.  Make Josh do it all.  

[LABILLBACKER]

4 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

Honestly from week 1 to the playoff debacle I had no idea what our identity was on offense. All we did was drop back and pass 80% of the time, the other 20% was a handoff to a RB or Josh scrambling. 

We didn't have an identity. I can remember several times 2 wrs being in the same area.  

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

It's taken me a while but our scheme just basically relies on Allen to be a superhero too much. Basically if he is off, or the other team has a great scheme against him, we have a hard time consistently playing well on offense.

 

Sure we will get our plays because Allen is still Allen. But it's got to the point that we need to stop taking that for granted and get him some help. 

 

It's like when you have a great worker who can make up for 3 people being out by piling more work on him.

 

Sure...that works for a while but then you eventually burn that worker out and when something comes up that needs all his attention other areas start failing since he can't bail them out.

 

I guess what I am saying is we need more answers on offense that don't include Josh Allen being an alien, because our offense relies on that more than any other in the NFL.

 

OC needs to go or we need a guy over our OC.  OC with the title of ASS. HC. or someons head is going to roll 

[somnus00]

I'm not a, "this guy needs to be fired..." but Dorsey isn't the guy. A slow start with visible growth throughout the season would be one thing.

 

But the offense regressed down the stretch. That's not a good sign and doesn't give hope that he'll get better next year. 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

OC needs to go or we need a guy over our OC.  OC with the title of ASS. HC. or someons head is going to roll 

 

Because he has no way of ever improving right? Weird mindset that people think players can improve as rookies but coaches have no similar way of improving.

 

For the record he ran one of the best offenses a rookie OC has ever run.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[LABILLBACKER]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

By the end of the season they were playing Josh the way they played Tyrod.  Blitz him to keep him in the pocket and since he isn't throwing hot or beating you with short throws you beat the hell out of him and sooner or later cause turnovers.

I didn't count 1 hot read pass all season on a blitz.

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

Because he has no way of ever improving right? Weird mindset that people think players can improve as rookies but coaches have no similar way of improving 

NEGATIVE. Its because this team does not have the years to waste waiting for a OC to MAYBE get better.

 

That is the difference sir. 

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

I'm not a, "this guy needs to be fired..." but Dorsey isn't the guy. A slow start with visible growth throughout the season would be one thing.

 

But the offense regressed down the stretch. That's not a good sign and doesn't give hope that he'll get better next year. 

 

Ehh..did it? They scored 32+ points in 4 straight games 

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

NEGATIVE. Its because this team does not have the years to waste waiting for a OC to MAYBE get better.

 

That is the difference sir. 

 

But they have time to hire someone that might be worse?

 

Always be careful what you wish for...

 

I think forcing Allen to learn an entirely new system, terminology and scheme would have a very high chance of causing a REAL regression, not the fake one most posters seem to want to talk about that didn't actually exist.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Nextmanup]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

Ehh..did it? They scored 32+ points in 4 straight games 

If there weren't concerns about the offense going down the stretch, why the heck did they re-sign fossils like Brown and Beasley?  And more importantly, why did they think those additions would help?

 

 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This is not true.  The Bills don't run screens because their talent can't execute them.  Almost EVERY screen I've seen this year ends with Allen grounding the ball at the feet of a RB surrounded by defenders.

 

As for all the so called "easier shorter throws" Allen isn't taking I call BS.  Allen made a number of short throws today and how many times, on a slippery field, did our WR's/RB's make the defender miss? I counted once by McKenzie.  

 

The Bills don't have the O line or RB talent to "commit to the grind". 

 

Allen doesn't hold on to the ball to long.  He is running for his life on half his pass attempts.  And it's those big time throws that help us win most of the games we're in. With the talent we have on offense if Allen played the way you want we would not have had a winning record let along claimed a division title and made it to the divisional payoffs.

 

 

Outside of your opinion there is not one bit of evidence to say our OL couldn't commit to running the ball.  You can't say we are bad at stuff that we've done well every time we have done it.  If you just pass all the time you make your OL look worse because they know to just chase the QB.  It happened to us in the middle of last year and it happened to us this year.  They are not blitzing DB's ever other play to stop the run.  Allen is getting the Tyrod Taylor treatment to keep him in the pocket the just Blitz him.

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

All the talk of compete overhaul on offense just makes me think that we really have wasted the last two years.

 

Investing first round draft picks  on defense and not seeing the return we had hoped probably has set this team back and I’m not sure to where. 

 

One narrative today was Cinci can get to Josh pretty anytime they wanted and it always looks hard for Buffalo and yet we  can’t even sniff Burrow against a line missing three starters?!  We couldn’t even scheme something new up to take advantage. 
 

The Bengals have surpassed us in talent and coaching and other teams are not far behind. I think we can play with the Chiefs but Reid is always going to be a step ahead of Mcd.

 

Now Josh gives us a leg up on any team with a Qb not Burrows or Mahomes so if we can give him some weapons and protection maybe we can possibly stay within distance. 

 

 

I would have Josh get his arm healed and then I would suggest he Go back and work with Jordan Palmer. Like he seriously should consider it. I think his footwork got sloppy this season, I think last year he was really moving defenders with his eyes this year not so much. This past off-season was a heck of a lot different than the prior offseason where we saw a huge jump.

 

He had Many more distractions off the field because of his elite play last playoffs. He earned the right to take a break but doesn’t hurt to maybe have him take a look. 

 

I’m not really worried about Diggs. He is the ultimate competitior blowing steam who knew another opportunity wasted. Him and Josh will probably be playing call of duty a week from now.  I would be interested in knowing how the team really feels about this staff. 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by loveorhatembillsfan4life

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

the high dollar high pick rotation certainly hasn’t won me over 

I think they blew it with Epenesa and Basham, trying to help Frazier scheme, when there were offensive players available to impact the team. McDermott/Frazier overruled Daboll on draft day

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Ehh..did it? They scored 32+ points in 4 straight games 

 

But they have time to hire someone that might be worse?

 

Always be careful what you wish for...

did they score that much because of a Dude named JA knows how to play Hero ball when needed or is it because of JA. I am sorry, Normally i agree with you Turk. But this team does not have the time to hope a OC gets better.....

[Big Turk]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

did they score that much because of a Dude named JA knows how to play Hero ball when needed or is it because of JA. I am sorry, Normally i agree with you Turk. But this team does not have the time to hope a OC gets better.....

 

And what do you think happens when Allen has to learn a new system, scheme and terminology? 

 

You think that is somehow a 100% foolproof system for improving?

 

I'd say there is a high likelihood it would be worse.

[BananaB]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

And what do you think happens when Allen has to learn a new system, scheme and terminology? 

 

You think that is somehow a 100% foolproof system for improving?

 

I'd say there is a high likelihood it would be worse.

If the offense is based of Allen playing hero ball it really doesn’t matter what you put in place. He’s a ***** machine working with rusty bolts right now. Besides Diggs everything around him stinks. 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Outside of your opinion there is not one bit of evidence to say our OL couldn't commit to running the ball.  You can't say we are bad at stuff that we've done well every time we have done it.  If you just pass all the time you make your OL look worse because they know to just chase the QB.  It happened to us in the middle of last year and it happened to us this year.  They are not blitzing DB's ever other play to stop the run.  Allen is getting the Tyrod Taylor treatment to keep him in the pocket the just Blitz him.

I disagree.  I've seen nothing from our O line and RB's that makes me confident we could run the ball effectively in the absence of Allen's lethal passing and running ability.  When we've run the ball well it's been because teams are selling out to stop Allen & Diggs.

 

And I agree with you that we need more balance.  But we don't have the offensive talent to achieve that balance.  So we get pass happy and rely on our elite QB and WR to make plays.  And for the most part they do and we win 14 games and a playoff game.  But in the end what we're doing on offense is not sustainable against elite teams because outside of Allen & Diggs we have average to below average talent on the offense.

 

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

11 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Ehh..did it? They scored 32+ points in 4 straight games 

 

But they have time to hire someone that might be worse?

 

Always be careful what you wish for...

 

I think forcing Allen to learn an entirely new system, terminology and scheme would have a very high chance of causing a REAL regression, not the fake one most posters seem to want to talk about that didn't actually exist.

Sorry Turk but I disagree too. Josh is 26 and we've already wasted 5 years farting around trying to find him an OL or running game. We dont have the luxury to see if Dorsey improves. Players can learn terminology in an off-season. Go out and hire Frank to run the offense.  Frazier has to go too.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

If the offense is based of Allen playing hero ball it really doesn’t matter what you put in place. He’s a ***** machine working with rusty bolts right now. Besides Diggs everything around him stinks. 

 

OK, then upgrade the weaponry around him and more importantly the OLine.

[whorlnut]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

 

We have maybe two starting-caliber OL right now in Dawkins (who is massively overrated) and Morse. Brown is solid but I think he's been playing hurt this season. 

You completely lost in this post with the “brown is solid” comment. 

[somnus00]

15 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Ehh..did it? They scored 32+ points in 4 straight games 

How you get there matters, no? Miami scored 31 on us last week. Does that mean their offense played well?