I've come to accept our offensive scheme relies on Allen too much

[Maine-iac]

11 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I didn't count 1 hot read pass all season on a blitz.

I couldn't quote you the statistic for the season but just from memory and what I've watched we seem to go for the block it all up and throw it deep approach.  Today they kept blitzing DB's off the edge and since we don't run and don't pass short we catch everything in front of them and then get tackled.  Since it's a DB they're blitzing they are much faster than our tackles and we don't get to throw deep.  Occasionally we get them but until we run the ball and play a more efficient mix with short passing we will live and die by the long ball.

[Bookie Man]

Need to get beef up the OL. So many times I've seen guys right right past Spencer Brown and Ryan Bates untouched. It's wild. Saffold is not good in pass pro either. Josh would have to make first guy miss then have to make a highlight type play, when it should just be a routine pass play. Even Dawkins had a lot of these type plays. Upgrade the OL.

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Sorry Turk but I disagree too. Josh is 26 and we've already wasted 5 years farting around trying to find him an OL or running game. We dont have the luxury to see if Dorsey improves. Players can learn terminology in an off-season. Go out and hire Frank to run the offense.  Frazier has to go too.

 

The Bills can run the ball fine when they choose to do so. It's a schematic decision not to run the ball more than some limitation. It gets tiring with people thinking the Bills are going to be a pass heavy team but then also be the next 2000 Baltimore Ravens running the ball. 

 

It's just not realistic. Trust me, if the Bills decide to run the ball they can do it. Your complaint should be they choose not to do so too often if you want to make that complaint, not that they cannot do it. It's been proven false time and time again, so I'm not sure why we have to keep hearing this nonsense.

 

The bigger issue is the poor pass blocking. Allen is dodging a rusher far too often early in dropbacks.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[CincyBillsFan]

24 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

By the end of the season they were playing Josh the way they played Tyrod.  Blitz him to keep him in the pocket and since he isn't throwing hot or beating you with short throws you beat the hell out of him and sooner or later cause turnovers.

What is this based on?  The offense was pretty effective at times during that winning streak at the end of the season because Allen is nothing like Tyrod.  He was making big time throws and the Bills were scoring a lot of points by fits and starts.  It wasn't pretty but it was effective until we ran up against a team in the playoffs that had a lot more weapons then we had and a QB that was as elite as our QB and a defense that actually was coached to compliment their offense.

 

 

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

How you get there matters, no? Miami scored 31 on us last week. Does that mean their offense played well?

 

You mean getting 400+ yards of offense every game is bad? 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The Bills can run the ball fine when they choose to do so. It's a schematic decision not to run the ball more than some limitation. It gets tiring with people thinking the Bills are going to be a pass heavy team but then also be the next 2000 Baltimore Ravens running the ball. 

 

It's just not realistic. Trust me, if the Bills decide to run the ball they can do it. Your complaint should be they choose not to do so too often if you want to make that complaint, not that they cannot do it. It's been proven false time and time again, so I'm not sure why we have to keep hearing this nonsense.

 

The bigger issue is the poor pass blocking. Allen is dodging a rusher far too often early in dropbacks.

Another issue is dropped passes and receivers that all to often are not making tough contested catches.  That 50 yard pass to Davis should have been caught.  It went right threw his hands. 

[Big Turk]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Another issue is dropped passes and receivers that all to often are not making tough contested catches.  That 50 yard pass to Davis should have been caught.  It went right threw his hands. 

 

Yeah...the drops seem to come at the worst times too. Usually 3rd down plays 

[78thealltimegreat]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The Bills can run the ball fine when they choose to do so. It's a schematic decision not to run the ball more than some limitation. It gets tiring with people thinking the Bills are going to be a pass heavy team but then also be the next 2000 Baltimore Ravens running the ball. 

 

It's just not realistic. Trust me, if the Bills decide to run the ball they can do it. Your complaint should be they choose not to do so too often if you want to make that complaint, not that they cannot do it. It's been proven false time and time again, so I'm not sure why we have to keep hearing this nonsense.

 

The bigger issue is the poor pass blocking. Allen is dodging a rusher far too often early in dropbacks.

Turk you aren’t wrong Beanes reliance on Allen making mediocre oline talent work so he can keep loading up on the dline has gone on for too long. Roger Saffold on a one year deal was his big oline move in the off season. 

[Maine-iac]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I disagree.  I've seen nothing from our O line and RB's that makes me confident we could run the ball effectively in the absence of Allen's lethal passing and running ability.  When we've run the ball well it's been because teams are selling out to stop Allen & Diggs.

 

And I agree with you that we need more balance.  But we don't have the offensive talent to achieve that balance.  So we get pass happy and rely on our elite QB and WR to make plays.  And for the most part they do and we win 14 games and a playoff game.  But in the end what we're doing on offense is not sustainable against elite teams because outside of Allen & Diggs we have average to below average talent on the offense.

 

 

 

 

3rd and 7 vs the Dolphins.   They know we are running the ball.  What did we do?  Tell me we can't run the ball.  Just a couple weeks earlier they actually commit to running and we have two running backs with 100 yards.  The RB's didn't do more because we just don't hand the ball off not because our OL can't block.

[Since1981]

The bad OL compounds bad WR. 
end up with scramble to low percent hero throw to gabe dropping. 
it’s all related on offense 

[Mango]

Part of the issue is that Allen also puts some of this weight on his own shoulders. It’s like him and Dorsey are just trying to do this all by themselves.

 

Both Dorsey and Allen have to be better at getting Allen to release the ball as soon as he hits the top of his drop. 
 

Would it kill them to put him behind center when we are throwing the ball every once in a while. 
 

I think we likely stay the course with Dorsey. But if Miami were to move on from McDaniels, I wouldn’t hesitate to pull the trigger at OC. 

[BringBackFlutie]

K

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

3rd and 7 vs the Dolphins.   They know we are running the ball.  What did we do?  Tell me we can't run the ball.  Just a couple weeks earlier they actually commit to running and we have two running backs with 100 yards.  The RB's didn't do more because we just don't hand the ball off not because our OL can't block.

One play doesn't prove a point.  It was a great run by Motor on a poorly blocked play.  On our 2nd series today we ran the ball twice in a row and guess what?  We had a 3rd & 7 which we didn't convert.  Then on the first drive of the 3rd quarter we have a first & goal at the 8 and we run the ball and lose 3 yards.  So then it was 2nd & goal from the 11. That is the reality of our running game more often then not.

 

 

6 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Turk you aren’t wrong Beanes reliance on Allen making mediocre oline talent work so he can keep loading up on the dline has gone on for too long. Roger Saffold on a one year deal was his big oline move in the off season. 

If it doesn't end now we are looking at a rapid fall off in the Bills fortunes starting next year. You have identified the problem with this organization and I have to hope that McD and Bean are aware of it.  If they aren't and continue to load up the D at the expense of the O then our window is past.

 

 

[Big Turk]

8 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Turk you aren’t wrong Beanes reliance on Allen making mediocre oline talent work so he can keep loading up on the dline has gone on for too long. Roger Saffold on a one year deal was his big oline move in the off season. 

 

I've been against drafting early OLine players but I am not anymore. It's how the league is headed...

 

WR and OLine early and I am OK with it.

[klos63]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

It's taken me a while but our scheme just basically relies on Allen to be a superhero too much. Basically if he is off, or the other team has a great scheme against him, we have a hard time consistently playing well on offense.

 

Sure we will get our plays because Allen is still Allen. But it's got to the point that we need to stop taking that for granted and get him some help. 

 

It's like when you have a great worker who can make up for 3 people being out by piling more work on him.

 

Sure...that works for a while but then you eventually burn that worker out and when something comes up that needs all his attention other areas start failing since he can't bail them out.

 

I guess what I am saying is we need more answers on offense that don't include Josh Allen being an alien, because our offense relies on that more than any other in the NFL.

 

Ya think?

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

One play doesn't prove a point.  It was a great run by Motor on a poorly blocked play.  On our 2nd series today we ran the ball twice in a row and guess what?  We had a 3rd & 7 which we didn't convert.  Then on the first drive of the 3rd quarter we have a first & goal at the 8 and we run the ball and lose 3 yards.  So then it was 2nd & goal from the 11. That is the reality of our running game more often then not.

 

 

 

The issue is it doesn't take much to get the Bills to go away from running the ball and turning it into the Josh Allen show.

 

Bills need to do a better job sticking with it even if it doesn't start out great.

[Solomon Grundy]

16 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The Bills can run the ball fine when they choose to do so. It's a schematic decision not to run the ball more than some limitation. It gets tiring with people thinking the Bills are going to be a pass heavy team but then also be the next 2000 Baltimore Ravens running the ball. 

 

It's just not realistic. Trust me, if the Bills decide to run the ball they can do it. Your complaint should be they choose not to do so too often if you want to make that complaint, not that they cannot do it. It's been proven false time and time again, so I'm not sure why we have to keep hearing this nonsense.

 

The bigger issue is the poor pass blocking. Allen is dodging a rusher far too often early in dropbacks.

Balance?? 

[78thealltimegreat]

9 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

One play doesn't prove a point.  It was a great run by Motor on a poorly blocked play.  On our 2nd series today we ran the ball twice in a row and guess what?  We had a 3rd & 7 which we didn't convert.  Then on the first drive of the 3rd quarter we have a first & goal at the 8 and we run the ball and lose 3 yards.  So then it was 2nd & goal from the 11. That is the reality of our running game more often then not.

 

 

If it doesn't end now we are looking at a rapid fall off in the Bills fortunes starting next year. You have identified the problem with this organization and I have to hope that McD and Bean are aware of it.  If they aren't and continue to load up the D at the expense of the O then our window is past.

 

 

We are slowly morphing into Aaron Rogers last few years with the Green Bay Packers and the model their front office used 

[Shortchaz]

We are the warren moon Houston oilers 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The issue is it doesn't take much to get the Bills to go away from running the ball and turning it into the Josh Allen show.

 

Bills need to do a better job sticking with it even if it doesn't start out great.

That's easier said then done when your defense allows a team to go up and down the field and gets out to 14 - 0 lead.  Also I'm not convinced that the Bills O line and RB's could execute a sustained running game.

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

The issue is it doesn't take much to get the Bills to go away from running the ball and turning it into the Josh Allen show.

 

Bills need to do a better job sticking with it even if it doesn't start out great.

How many times have we seen Motor/Cook make the wrong cut or hit the wrong hole? 

[97bills]

3 hours ago, henry jones said:

They need to completely overhaul the OL and be more creative in the running game.  JA has reached a ceiling with this current system.  The guy can’t do it all by himself.  With the number of hits he takes, he’ll never make it to his 30’s in the NFL.

That’s what I’m worried about… all those big hits !!! Andrew luck comes to mind 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Solomon Grundy said:

How many times have we seen Motor/Cook make the wrong cut or hit the wrong hole? 

I keep going back to that 1st and goal at the 8 at the start of the 3rd quarter.  We run and lose 3yards.  Second and goal from the 11 is a lot tougher then had we gained 3 yards with a 2nd and goal from the 5.  Part of the reason we go pass happy is that all to often when we do run the ball we gut stuffed for no gain or lose yardage.

 

 

[KDIGGZ]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

He has NO choice but to do "crazy things".  It's the only chance our offense has.  And agonizingly a lot of the crazy stuff he does works. Sure it's chaotic but it's the reason the Bills won 14 games. But in the end the lack of complimentary talent on the offense dooms the Bills against the best teams.

False. You can win by playing within structure and completing simple 7 yard passes. The Bengals literally did it to us today. 3 step, throw the ball. Stop running around like a crazy person and launching it 50 yards when all you need is 2 for the first down

[97bills]

22 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yeah...the drops seem to come at the worst times too. Usually 3rd down plays 

But that’s why you throw an easier pass on 3-2 - Davis shouldn’t of dropped it , but sometimes just get the first down. 

[somnus00]

16 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

You mean getting 400+ yards of offense every game is bad? 

I know you're watching the games, and I appreciate your commentary trying to be a voice of reason. I don't like turnover either.

 

But I saw abandoning the run, lack of creativity in route combinations, sending receivers to the same spot. These problems seemed to get worse late in the season. They were relying on super human efforts by Josh and Diggs every week. That's not sustainable.

 

Like i said, I don't like turnover in coaching, but you have to know when someone isn't working out. Consistency for the sake of consistency isn't smart either. There are 4 ex coordinators on staff so they don't have to go outside the org.

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, KDIGGZ said:

False. You can win by playing within structure and completing simple 7 yard passes. The Bengals literally did it to us today. 3 step, throw the ball. Stop running around like a crazy person and launching it 50 yards when all you need is 2 for the first down

False.  The Bengals gave Burrow all the time in the world to push his receivers down field then AND ONLY THEN check down to a guy who ran 10 yards for a first down.  Allen was harassed on half the pass attempts he made.  And for the record Burrow was not getting the ball out all that quickly once he realized that he had all day to throw.

[Solomon Grundy]

We ALL want to fire Frazier, but isn't he running McDermott's defensive scheme? 

[KDIGGZ]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

False.  The Bengals gave Burrow all the time in the world to push his receivers down field then AND ONLY THEN check down to a guy who ran 10 yards for a first down.  Allen was harassed on half the pass attempts he made.  And for the record Burrow was not getting the ball out all that quickly once he realized that he had all day to throw.

Burrow is the quickest time to throw in the entire NFL averaging 2.55 seconds. You couldn't be more wrong

[CincyBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

Burrow is the quickest time to throw in the entire NFL averaging 2.55 seconds. You couldn't be more wrong

Not today.  And the Bengals worked hard in the off season to improve their O line.  Two major signings and a 1st round pick for the LT.  And this is after loading up on explosive play makers. 

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Not today.  And the Bengals worked hard in the off season to improve their O line.  Two major signings and a 1st round pick for the LT.  And this is after loading up on explosive play makers. 

 

Their offense will look a lot different soon enough. Higgins and Boyd are UFAs after next year and Burrow will either be on a 5th year option or a new contract.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Their offense will look a lot different soon enough. Higgins and Boyd are UFAs after next year and Burrow will either be on a 5th year option or a new contract.

Then we'll see if they can pass the test like KC did.  I suspect they will.  Still I would rather have the Bengal's "problem" then the Bills who in desperation had to bring two WR's that were out of football for our playoff push.  The more I think about that the madder it makes me. 

[Senth]

Trenches trenches trenches!!!!!!!!

[KDIGGZ]

29 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Not today.  And the Bengals worked hard in the off season to improve their O line.  Two major signings and a 1st round pick for the LT.  And this is after loading up on explosive play makers. 

You are right. He was even FASTER today at 2.5 flat. There are some really bad posters on this forum unfortunately. Josh at 3.2 and consistently among the longest holding onto the ball every season. No structure, just doing what he wants.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by KDIGGZ

[buffblue]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

So you think that a first time playcaller has zero room to grow and adapt? Lucky that wasn't what people thought of Daboll. He would have never coached in the NFL after his first few stints as OC.

 

Newsflash. Coaches just like players tend to grow and adapt especially after their first season.

Ever the optimist. The Bills can never do wrong in your eyes it seems

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, buffblue said:

Ever the optimist. The Bills can never do wrong in your eyes it seems

 

More like the realist that doesn't jump off a cliff 50 times a year like most posters.

 

Mostly it's just common sense, but apparenly not many people who post here have it.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Billznut]

4 hours ago, Roundybout said:

 

We have maybe two starting-caliber OL right now in Dawkins (who is massively overrated) and Morse. Brown is solid but I think he's been playing hurt this season. 

Draft an LT very early. Move Dawkins to RT, make Brown the depth tackle. Do that and add one stud guard, either through draft or free agency and we would have the beginnings of a good line. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Billznut

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, somnus00 said:

I know you're watching the games, and I appreciate your commentary trying to be a voice of reason. I don't like turnover either.

 

But I saw abandoning the run, lack of creativity in route combinations, sending receivers to the same spot. These problems seemed to get worse late in the season. They were relying on super human efforts by Josh and Diggs every week. That's not sustainable.

 

Like i said, I don't like turnover in coaching, but you have to know when someone isn't working out. Consistency for the sake of consistency isn't smart either. There are 4 ex coordinators on staff so they don't have to go outside the org.

 

Funny...many said the same thing about Andy Reid for years.

[buffblue]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

More like the realist that doesn't jump off a cliff 50 times a year like most posters.

 

Mostly it's just common sense, but apparenly not many people who post here have it.

You seem like a pretty good poster, but always one that takes the positive Bills standpoint. You were incredibly wrong about how things would turn out today. Don't tell me about how things are all sunshine at One Bills Drive after such a disastrous end to our season

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, buffblue said:

You seem like a pretty good poster, but always one that takes the positive Bills standpoint. You were incredibly wrong about how things would turn out today. Don't tell me about how things are all sunshine at One Bills Drive after such a disastrous end to our season

 

They were spent. Nothing much to say. They could have had the perfect schemes and it wouldn't have mattered today. They had nothing left to give and it showed. 

 

I'm not even mad about it. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Big Turk