Elam v Jackson

[ngbills]

Jackson has been picked on a ton this year. At times he is in good position but his physical traits limit his impact. He is not the best tackler either. Heck, everyone will make a play here and there which is Jackson. 

Elam is improving and has a higher ceiling. Hopefully we get to White and Elam with Jackson/Johnson/Rhodes/New Person battling it out for PT. 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I totally agree - except even to start the year and through the last game - the Bills have been rotating the DB’s most of the season and then the after Tre came back - they still have been platooning the alternate CB.

 

I agree in the past they used 100% for each CB, but Elam is built and plays well in more man situations, Dane and Rhodes are better tacklers and zone players.

 

Therefore at the present time - what they have done in the past at DB is irrelevant because they had little Depth behind White and Wallace.

 

This year they have Jackson, Beneford, Elam, and now Rhodes and White outside and they have been rotating the first 3 off and on all year while they were healthy.  
 

I think that is a fundamental change to the defensive approach to help keep teams from getting tendencies over and over within a game.  You have seen this guy for a few snaps over 2 series - Bam now a different player is covering you while the first guy sits and studies.

 

I think they are playing it very similar to the DL.  
 

Plus your original statement was:

 

“Every Bills first round picks has started the majority, if not all, of their rookie year since McD has arrived.  Except Elam”

 

I totally agree that White, Allen, and Edmunds all started and played a majority at a time the team was growing.  I also believe the 2019 and 2021 1st rounds picks do not fit your quote because the DLine rotates and the Bills had much more depth than early on.

 

I get what you are saying and I just don’t think it has any reflection on Elam.

 

 

Yeah, they were rotating DBs because Tre was injured AND Elam couldn’t beat out Benford. If Elam won the job, he’d have started. This is the first time he’s ever rotated them and it’s not because all 3 corners are too good to sit. 
 

Regarding your last sentence- I think it reflects Elam not beating beat out Benford (or Dane).  While it’s not entirely his fault that he started behind the 8 ball as a man press specialist switching to zone, while Benford played strictly zone, I just don’t think the coaching staff trusts him as much as other first rd rookies and I don’t think he’s shown as much as the other did 14 games into their rookie season.

 

That’s not really much of a slight imo, I thought the other guys had all been pretty dam good as rookies.  I think he’s loaded with talent and expected him to take a bit longer to get accustomed to zone.  Bright future, just need lots of reps
 

 

 

[Malazan]

Why not both?

[HappyDays]

I thought Elam made some great plays on the ball against the Dolphins and almost came down with an interception. To me he has been the better player all year, and while I trust this coaching staff with their DB evaluations I can't see why they have put him behind Dane Jackson on the depth chart for most of the season. It's not like Jackson is a high pedigree player, he's a 7th round pick who couldn't even beat out Levi Wallace for a starting spot. Do we beat the Chiefs if Elam doesn't have that interception in the endzone on their first offensive drive? I don't know if the coaches have just intentionally been making it hard on him to make him feel like he has to earn a role, but after his performance against the Dolphins I think it's time to make the permanent switch and move forward with a consistent secondary.

[BuffBillsForLife]

Ah yes, Bills CB2.  A strange game, the only winning move is not to play.

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

Elam needs to play more. I understand McD’s stance on working into the role, and giving the vet as many chances as he can. However, Elam is an outstanding athlete. I was shocked to see him running with Hill. He was on him all game, and was a huge part of his limited production. He didn’t take over the game, he wasn’t running wild. He made plays because he’s an outstanding player. But Elam held his own and then some. 
 

Sorry Dane Jackson, but Elam’s for reeeeaaalllll

[Beck Water]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:05 AM, Commish said:

Gather that they roughly split time at DB2 - any opinions as to who played better?

 

Might find this interesting

 

 

On 12/19/2022 at 8:34 PM, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

Elam needs to play more. I understand McD’s stance on working into the role, and giving the vet as many chances as he can. However, Elam is an outstanding athlete. I was shocked to see him running with Hill. He was on him all game, and was a huge part of his limited production. He didn’t take over the game, he wasn’t running wild. He made plays because he’s an outstanding player. But Elam held his own and then some. 
 

Sorry Dane Jackson, but Elam’s for reeeeaaalllll

 

Bills were playing a lot of press man against the Dolphins

 

That's Elam's gig

 

 

[julian]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Might find this interesting

 

 

 

Bills were playing a lot of press man against the Dolphins

 

That's Elam's gig

 

 

He needs to be on the field… if that means press man then so be it, when you can look like that against Tyreek Hill then just let him take away the opposing teams best receiver each week and play all the zone you want elsewhere.

[LABILLBACKER]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Might find this interesting

 

 

 

Bills were playing a lot of press man against the Dolphins

 

That's Elam's gig

 

 

Because of our capacity to man press a fast wr with Elam, very very doubtful :13 happens again.  It won't be long till Tre & Elam are the FT db combo.  I just can’t watch Dane miss tackles anymore. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

They are about even to me. Elam makes a significant leap in his 2nd year. 

[Warcodered]

 

[GunnerBill]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:27 PM, bobobonators said:

I hear ya but im not referring to the Waddle TD. The play im referring to happened earlier in the game and it was for a big gain but not a TD. It was a 32yd gain in the second quarter. My focus on it is that Waddle beat Tre bad on it - like 2-3yds of separation bad. 

 

Was a play call issue for me on that one. Came against a really poorly called blitz, which made Tre a bit cautious with no safety help and he didn't get as physical early in the route as he should have. 

 

Bad spot for Leslie to put his corners on an island. 

 

 

On another note - I still want to know what led to the sitting Elam for Rhodes the other week. We never got the story there. That was a breach of team rules or something. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Ayjent]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Was a play call issue for me on that one. Came against a really poorly called blitz, which made Tre a bit cautious with no safety help and he didn't get as physical early in the route as he should have. 

 

Bad spot for Leslie to put his corners on an island. 

 

 

On another note - I still want to know what led to the sitting Elam for Rhodes the other week. We never got the story there. That was a breach of team rules or something. 

From what I read it was coming down to proper technique that they are coaching and not playing him unless he can demonstrate it in games/practice with consistency.  The raw talent of Elam is superior to Jackson and we’ve seen it flashing, but I had my reservations about his tackling and losing coverage at times before he was drafted bc I’m a Gator alum.  His tackling has definitely improved and the Bills have the staff to coach him up without breaking his confidence.  He has great talent and it’s going to be needed when we face players like Chase, Higgins, Hill, Waddle, etc.  I think we’re all disappointed that he is not further along but I do think the Bills are conservative in their approach.
 

I wanted the Bills to draft Woolen and couldn’t believe he was not a higher rated prospect, although I had no idea that he would be so good so quick.  However, Elam is still talented enough to be better than Woolen, but I thought he had more issues to clean up than Woolen despite Woolen converting to CB in college. It’s not that hard to transition because you know the techniques of what you are trying to cover and that was overvalued in dropping his draft stock.  I thought of him as being very valuable against a guy like Kelce and bigger receivers because of his size and speed.  And the dude is a very willing tackler. Again, I was shocked at where Seattle got him and it’s been tough watching the Bills struggle with consistency at CB2 knowing that Woolen was a really good fit.  Then again maybe he’d be facing the same issues with playing time under this staff. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

From what I read it was coming down to proper technique that they are coaching and not playing him unless he can demonstrate it in games/practice with consistency.  The raw talent of Elam is superior to Jackson and we’ve seen it flashing, but I had my reservations about his tackling and losing coverage at times before he was drafted bc I’m a Gator alum.  His tackling has definitely improved and the Bills have the staff to coach him up without breaking his confidence.  He has great talent and it’s going to be needed when we face players like Chase, Higgins, Hill, Waddle, etc.  I think we’re all disappointed that he is not further along but I do think the Bills are conservative in their approach.
 

I wanted the Bills to draft Woolen and couldn’t believe he was not a higher rated prospect, although I had no idea that he would be so good so quick.  However, Elam is still talented enough to be better than Woolen, but I thought he had more issues to clean up than Woolen despite Woolen converting to CB in college. It’s not that hard to transition because you know the techniques of what you are trying to cover and that was overvalued in dropping his draft stock.  I thought of him as being very valuable against a guy like Kelce and bigger receivers because of his size and speed.  And the dude is a very willing tackler. Again, I was shocked at where Seattle got him and it’s been tough watching the Bills struggle with consistency at CB2 knowing that Woolen was a really good fit.  Then again maybe he’d be facing the same issues with playing time under this staff. 

 

It isn't that though that caused him to sit a random game mid season after being up when healthy all year. We all knew and know there remain technique issues with Elam, particularly in terms of learning to be comfortable in zone concepts - which is what this defense plays most of. His transition and his drop depth still need work. He always looked a bit mechanical in his transitions to me in college and there is still work to do to smooth that out. I actually think his tackling (which I agree was a concern in Florida) has been better than I expected in the NFL. 

 

They sat him down for that one game and went with Xavier Rhodes. That was about something other than where Elam is in his development curve. The fact he didn't get on the field on defense against the Jets, yea I'm willing to accept that was about the concerns they still have with him and the type of scheme they wanted to run that day and Dane had a good game so they left him in. That makes sense. Making him a healthy scratch in New England to play Xavier Rhodes was about something else. 

 

As for Woolen, since you raise him, I was on him really early in the last draft cycle when he was still being talked about as day 3 guy. I felt that was way too late and while he had some rawness to his game and he was a very boom or bust type selection his ability meant he should go day 2. Then there was a period where I think everyone got a bit too high on him and there was even talk of him sneaking into round 1 which I thought was too rich for someone whose floor was a bust, even though I think his ceiling is elite boundary corner. That he ended up sliding to round 5 is mystifying to me and Seattle got a bargain. He has been really good, and that is a credit to him and the Seattle staff but he has had his moments as well (again run support mainly, though he has given up a few deep balls he'd want back too). 

[Ayjent]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't that though that caused him to sit a random game mid season after being up when healthy all year. We all knew and know there remain technique issues with Elam, particularly in terms of learning to be comfortable in zone concepts - which is what this defense plays most of. His transition and his drop depth still need work. He always looked a bit mechanical in his transitions to me in college and there is still work to do to smooth that out. I actually think his tackling (which I agree was a concern in Florida) has been better than I expected in the NFL. 

 

They sat him down for that one game and went with Xavier Rhodes. That was about something other than where Elam is in his development curve. The fact he didn't get on the field on defense against the Jets, yea I'm willing to accept that was about the concerns they still have with him and the type of scheme they wanted to run that day and Dane had a good game so they left him in. That makes sense. Making him a healthy scratch in New England to play Xavier Rhodes was about something else. 

 

As for Woolen, since you raise him, I was on him really early in the last draft cycle when he was still being talked about as day 3 guy. I felt that was way too late and while he had some rawness to his game and he was a very boom or bust type selection his ability meant he should go day 2. Then there was a period where I think everyone got a bit too high on him and there was even talk of him sneaking into round 1 which I thought was too rich for someone whose floor was a bust, even though I think his ceiling is elite boundary corner. That he ended up sliding to round 5 is mystifying to me and Seattle got a bargain. He has been really good, and that is a credit to him and the Seattle staff but he has had his moments as well (again run support mainly, though he has given up a few deep balls he'd want back too). 

Fair enough.  I was just going on what was reported in Buffalo News article yesterday about Elam as to why but I suspect you are right that there is probably more to the story that is a combination of things unsaid and unreported. I’d be frustrated if I were in his position and thought I had the ability to contribute more.  Especially when I was watching someone get snaps that I knew I was better than and that player wasn’t exactly playing top notch.  If the player that has you on the bench is playing lights out that may not be very satisfying but you at least understand.  All speculation, but I could see a competitor getting frustrated in his situation no matter how good of a person. You want him to be frustrated with that and by all accounts whatever the underlying unstated reasons are he is responding in a positive way. 

[JerseyBills]

I preferred Dane but Saturday I thought Elam played great, physical ball and hope he stays as the #2 CB

[GunnerBill]

What is encouraging about Elam is as I said in another thread... when they drafted that type of corner they did so with Tyreek Hill more than any other player mind. That was a really good performance against him. 

[Reks Ryan]

Elam made the defensive play of the game Saturday night.  Miami was driving for go ahead score in 4th QTR, had gone 35 yards in 3 plays.   W

Just now, Reks Ryan said:

Elam made the defensive play of the game Saturday night.  Miami was driving for go ahead score in 4th QTR, had gone 35 yards in 3 plays.   With 6:50 left, Elam took down Hill for a 3 yard loss back to Bills 43 and set up 3rd and long.  

 

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

On another note - I still want to know what led to the sitting Elam for Rhodes the other week. We never got the story there. That was a breach of team rules or something. 

 

Why does it have to be the "hidden reasons" conspiracy theory thing? 

 

We were playing NE. 

Frazier wanted to play disguised coverage in zone and stifle the run, in a hostile environment with challenging communication.  

Rhodes is a good run defender, and Elam is still "progressing" in his zone coverage.

 

And, there probably is some truth to the idea they wanted to see what Rhodes had left in case they need him, in a game where they thought they could get away with a look.  They got their answer I assume (Not much).

Edited December 22, 2022 by Beck Water

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Why does it have to be the "hidden reasons" conspiracy theory thing? 

 

We were playing NE. 

Frazier wanted to play disguised coverage in zone and stifle the run, in a hostile environment with challenging communication.  

Rhodes is a good run defender, and Elam is still "progressing" in his zone coverage.

 

And, there probably is some truth to the idea they wanted to see what Rhodes had left in case they need him, in a game where they thought they could get away with a look.  They got their answer I assume (Not much).

 

I'm sorry I can't get myself to a place where that makes any sense at all. There has to be more to it.

[BuffaloBill]

Hopefully Tre’s incline return goes fast and at a steep angle.  He and Elam will make an awesome random when they are both playing well.  Benford also showed some promise.  The Buills could be. Solid 4 deep with CB’s if they are all healthy.

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

Hopefully Tre’s incline return goes fast and at a steep angle.  He and Elam will make an awesome random when they are both playing well.  Benford also showed some promise.  The Buills could be. Solid 4 deep with CB’s if they are all healthy.

I am hoping by playoff time they’ve got it nailed down not having Von Miller for the playoffs is troubling We need our secondary to be able to hold it down.

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'm sorry I can't get myself to a place where that makes any sense at all. There has to be more to it.

 

OK FWIW, TBN (paywall) Ryan O'Halloran did a piece on him -
https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/ryan-ohalloran-bills-rookie-kaiir-elams-mindset-after-deactivation-make-sure-that-didnt-happen-again/article_3d870d90-8146-11ed-a6bb-d7dfb505ba12.html

 

Quote

Elam’s deactivation for the New England game was a surprise because he wasn’t on that week’s injury report, White had only played one game, Jackson was in a coverage slump and Xavier Rhodes had played all of 25 snaps during year.
 

Elam has always been a post-practice worker, but he upped the volume and also honed in on everything else after the Patriots game. If the coaches intended to send him a message, he first needed to receive it (he did, quickly) and then show he had received it (he did, semi-quickly).

“The weaknesses were basically playing with proper technique,” he said. "Maybe I was trying to be too perfect instead of sticking with what got me here."

 

Quote

Also, rookies sometimes abandon their technique to go interception hunting.

 

“Interceptions are cool and they help change the momentum of the game,” said Elam, who has two picks. “But I really just want to be a person who locks down my guy because I know that helps the team tremendously. When I start doing that, I will feel more satisfied than if I have a game with one pick and a bunch of yards given up.”

 

The implication I take from that is that Elam was benched for performance reasons such that the Bills felt Rhodes was a better choice for the game - not for "breaking a team rule" or some kind of discipline.  Of course, you can question whether my belief colors my interpretation and, of course, whether Elam is going to spill the tea if it was a rule violation discipline.  But he makes a fairly convincing case for the above.

 

But, there is something in the article that puzzles me:

Quote

Being a rookie cornerback in the NFL is tricky. College teams play an overwhelming amount of zone coverage so players like Elam must learn the ins and outs of man coverage, particularly press coverage and being able to play physical at the line of scrimmage while not putting himself out of position.

 

My understanding was that Elam played a lot of man in college and not so much zone.

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK FWIW, TBN (paywall) Ryan O'Halloran did a piece on him -
https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/ryan-ohalloran-bills-rookie-kaiir-elams-mindset-after-deactivation-make-sure-that-didnt-happen-again/article_3d870d90-8146-11ed-a6bb-d7dfb505ba12.html

 

 

 

The implication I take from that is that Elam was benched for performance reasons such that the Bills felt Rhodes was a better choice for the game - not for "breaking a team rule" or some kind of discipline.  Of course, you can question whether my belief colors my interpretation and, of course, whether Elam is going to spill the tea if it was a rule violation discipline.  But he makes a fairly convincing case for the above.

 

But, there is something in the article that puzzles me:

 

My understanding was that Elam played a lot of man in college and not so much zone.

 

Yea the bit about zone v man is just plain wrong. Elam played a lot of press man at Florida the adjustment for him is to play zone. 

 

The rest is just a BN fluff piece.

[chongli]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:10 AM, H2o said:

41 votes for Elam, 0 for Jackson