If the offense keeps struggling does Dorsey get fired ?

[ddaryl]

6 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I used to avoid this place for a while after a loss. Now we are so spoiled you have to be careful after a win. We are #4 in points scored. Sure, there are things we could be doing better. That’s always the case…..but the sky is not falling. 

 

Its ok to call a spade a spade,

 

This offese is struggling for consistency.... This year is about winning the SB... so anything that might keep us from getting there is being discussed. This is not being spoiled, this is having expectations for this franchise.... I'm concerned

Edited December 12, 2022 by ddaryl

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I'm not thrilled with our OC either. 

But we also have crap after Diggs for reliable pass catchers which is mind boggling.

 

The offense needs investment for the future

 

Concur.  We under-invested in offense this off-season.

[ddaryl]

34 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Agree, but I’d go with “understandable” instead of “mind boggling”. They haven’t spent the draft capital on offense to get difference makers or a dominant Oline. The guys they have spent high picks on are the guys keeping the offense going; Allen & Diggs. Cook and Knox have also made some big plays, but both are hampered by the poor line play. 

 

 

From what I saw ending last season to this season.. I'm sticking with mind boggling.

Edited December 12, 2022 by ddaryl

[frostbitmic]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I don't think that's the common use of the word.  It usually means returning to a previous, lesser state.  So are you thinking the Bills OL returned to how they were playing earlier in the season, or last season, and if so, when?

 

If they are playing poorly, for a variety of reasons including injury and a high level of skill from the opponent, that may not be "regressing".

 

The reason I don't see that as a nitpick, is that it's important to understand why something is happening if you want to change it.

To me it means not playing as well as they were previously playing, mostly IMO since the bye week.

 

 

[Beck Water]

20 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

 

OK, but when you see something like that, it's good to ask "why"?

 

Let's have a careful look at the chart, which I'm not sure Mr sharpndpensel did.  What I see is that all but 2 of Josh's completions were within 5 yds of the LOS, an area where completions over the middle are difficult and dangerous (because of the risk of batted balls).  At least one of the longer completions was actually a short completion to Dawson Knox, with good YAC.  I think the completion on the L sideline was to Gabe Davis.

 

So I doubt the Bills game plan failed to pick that up, what I think was happening was that Allen was having to live on short dump-offs and had to move out of the pocket before anything deep (L R or C) opened up.  The Jets were also pretty determined not to let Allen roll out to the R, which they did last game.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

To me it means not playing as well as they were previously playing, mostly IMO since the bye week.

 

Oh, wow, OK. 

 

So since the bye week, with this Jets game being an exception, the Bills have had 6 straight games above the league average 120 rush yds per game.  Prior to the bye, we were just under the league average with 118 per game; after the bye, average of 148 (including yesterday's below-average rushing).  Allen averaged 7.8 rush attempts per game prior to the bye, and 7.4 after the bye, so the improvement is not Josh running more.

 

That usually means improved OL play. 

 

I think it's a point that Josh has been taking more sacks (1.7 before the bye, 2.7 afterwards).  I'm not sure that's entirely on the OL - someone has stats on the time Josh holds the ball, and I think he's been doubting himself over pulling the trigger trying to avoid interceptions, and maybe not trusting that the ball will go exactly where he wants if he doesn't have time to set and throw, instead of feeling confident he can sling it on the run.

 

Bottom line, with a big exception of last game with Quessenberry in at LT and this game with Dawkins gimping into the locker room pre game and playing on a high ankle, I'm not sure the OL is really playing worse and where they are, I'm not sure it's "regressing" and not playing hurt.

 

[Awwufelloff]

Need to fix our Oline. 

[FilthyBeast]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

 

Unless the Pegula's intervene I would doubt it because it's not McD/Beane's style and they'll just believe he'll be better next year by default.

 

I was never a huge Daboll fan, but it's clear that Dorsey is trying too hard to be his own guy so to speak and fit the proverbial square peg in a round hole with a roster that just isn't good enough on the offensive side.

[Bruffalo]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Concur.  We under-invested in offense this off-season.

We've under-invested since 2020.  Ever since they figured out Allen was "the dude", they've almost ignored offense in meaningful draft choices or splashy FA signings that would help him.

[colin]

statistically, we are the same or even a touch better, so i think he's fine.

 

we need an interior blocker (who can pass and run block some) and one more play maker on O.  could be someone stepping up, could be FA, could be a rook, but we need one more person on O who can get the ball and make the D pay.

 

 

[GoBills808]

lmfao no

[thenorthremembers]

Despite the struggles of our oline and wideouts the Bills are still a top 10 offense and have scored more points through 13 games than they did last year.  That performance got Daboll a head coaching job so.

Edited December 12, 2022 by thenorthremembers

[Casey D]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

I see him getting released right after the Bills win the Super Bowl.  That will show him.

[Kmart128]

Doubtful... if you recall Daboll wasnt exactly some great OC his first year with us... it takes time to build.

 

And his recievers leading the NFL in drops does not help him one bit

[frostbitmic]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Oh, wow, OK. 

 

So since the bye week, with this Jets game being an exception, the Bills have had 6 straight games above the league average 120 rush yds per game.  Prior to the bye, we were just under the league average with 118 per game; after the bye, average of 148 (including yesterday's below-average rushing).  Allen averaged 7.8 rush attempts per game prior to the bye, and 7.4 after the bye, so the improvement is not Josh running more.

 

That usually means improved OL play. 

 

I think it's a point that Josh has been taking more sacks (1.7 before the bye, 2.7 afterwards).  I'm not sure that's entirely on the OL - someone has stats on the time Josh holds the ball, and I think he's been doubting himself over pulling the trigger trying to avoid interceptions, and maybe not trusting that the ball will go exactly where he wants if he doesn't have time to set and throw, instead of feeling confident he can sling it on the run.

 

Bottom line, with a big exception of last game with Quessenberry in at LT and this game with Dawkins gimping into the locker room pre game and playing on a high ankle, I'm not sure the OL is really playing worse and where they are, I'm not sure it's "regressing" and not playing hurt.

 

I think the line has improved a bit at run blocking but the rushing numbers per game are up because they're calling more run plays. Some of that due to trying to be more balanced and a big part because of Allen's injured Elbow, which I believe is or was worse than has been reported.

 

Yes, Dawkins multiple penalties yesterday was because of getting beat numerous times because of his Ankle and I do give him credit for toughing it out as there isn't another Tackle on the team any better than a one legged man. I guess the play that sticks out to me yesterday was both Dawkins and Brown being beaten like drums and both having to hold to prevent Josh from being the creamy filling of an Oreo cookie. It wasn't a good look.

 

Dorsey does need to draw up some plays where Josh gets the ball out quicker. It just might keep Josh upright and help negate the pass rush

 that you know is coming. We apparently aren't going to agree here on this and that's cool, have a great day.

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

Only if Josh/Diggs shows their displeasure

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, frostbitmic said:

Dorsey didn't draw up all of the penalties his offensive line was getting marched backwards for either. I know Dawkins was flagged at least three times himself.

 

Drawing up some quicker strike plays would help this regressing line immensely.

 

Correct.   Dawkins was flagged 1x for false start and 3x for offensive holding yesterday (once was 3D and declined).  3 of them were in the 1st half.  No penalties in the 4Q.  That's 3 of the Bills  5 accepted penalties right there.  The other two were on Mitch Morse or Josh Allen (ineligible downfield) and Rodger Saffold (false start).  There were a couple of other declined penalties on the OL - offensive holding on Saffold was one.

 

I don't know what 'regressing' means to you, but there's not a mystery as to what was going on.  Dawkins is playing on a high ankle sprain, and isn't as mobile as he normally is - against what's quite possibly the best DL in the league, certainly one of the best 3 or 4.  He's not doing it because he loves to play on a high ankle sprain, he's doing it because he and the coaches believe he's a better option to protect Josh than Quessenberry, also playing on an injured ankle.

 

I don't think that's regressing, I think that's playing hurt. 

[TFBillsfan]

Something else that hasn’t been brought up is our schedule compared to last year. ITS SIGNIFICANTLY HARDER. Outside of the Bears game every team when we played them has been in the thick of it. MIA, NYJ, DET all significantly improved from last year. If the Bills go on to beat MIA and Cinncy they will have beaten every playoff team except MN this year. Yes they need to tighten up a few things but when this team fires on all cylinders they can beat anyone.

 

Last year we had the luxury of playing some bad teams….not so much this year. Not making excuses but we’ve had a ton of injuries coupled with Tre and Hyde injuries and now Von. For this team to be at 10-3 with plenty of meat left on the bone to get better should be scary of what they can do. Make no mistake no one wants a playoff matchup with Buffalo.

 

Now let’s go get what this team, franchise, city and all of BillsMafia want…..the Lombardi. It’s all right there in front of us starting with TCB against MIA.

 

FINISH STRONG BUFFALO!!!!!!!

[Eastport bills]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Might be a terrible take to some, but this is starting to remind me of the raiders back in 17 when Carr got Musgrave booted out of a job because he wanted his friend Downing to be his OC and after that happened their offense started out strong but after the Washington game they completely collapsed. I’m starting to see a similar pattern here with Dorsey and Josh. It started out great and now it’s come to somewhat of a stop. Even though Allen and company are still making things work to a degree. I do wonder though if the offense continues to struggle, is there a possibility that Dorsey gets fired or demoted??

Are you oblivious to the problems wind and driving rain cause offenses? What a nonsensical post. Forgetting Josh’s injury and the fact Dawkins had holding penalties every other play, the idea is put up points and no turnovers while you WIN! Wait for a fast track and see what our offense is.

[Codyny13]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

So, I haven't seen game film of yesterday and I have a hard time telling what's really going on from TV broadcast.  But what I saw for a few games has been,  Dorsey's answer to defenses relying on their DL to bring pressure with 4 (or 3) and blanketing the field with 7 (or  8 ) has been to send 3 WR on deep routes and have 2 outlets chip and release for a short passing game.  So we either have deep routes that develop late, and we're not getting the protection to wait for them to develop, or we have outlets who chip and release, which makes them not as quick targets as they could be, and sometimes not available with a clear passing lane.  Sometimes he sends a receiver or an RB out to the flat.

 

I think Dorsey's idea is that we hit those outlets quickly and accurately, they get 8-10 yds a pop, and it will either get us to the EZ or knock the defenses out of that type of coverage, freeing up the deeper routes.  (Daboll had a different approach involving getting Beasley open underneath and scheming guys open deep).  This actually worked very well against the Patriots.

 

The problems are, 1) Josh doesn't necessarily make those short "outlet" throws accurately, especially on the move or under pressure.  They were his least accurate throws in college and pre draft, and some of the last he improved.  2) Mentally, Josh strongly resists taking the checkdown, and even more resists taking the checkdown promptly, when it is most effective and will get the most yards. 3) when the TE and RB are expected to chip and release, they aren't always available as outlets - if they can't get off the block or are delayed getting off the block.  It also becomes predictable.  Dorsey needs to mix it up more IMO.

All good points, I would like to watch the all-22 and see if our receivers are winning at the tops of their routes. Our offensive line just doesn’t seem good enough to rely on these late developing routes consistently. Dorsey can have the best play concept but if you don’t have the guys to execute, it’s going to break down.  Just doesn’t seem to come easy lately, which of course against a good defense, that happens, but def need to do more and be better going into the playoffs.