Shaw66 Posted November 1, 2022 Author Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 hour ago, QCity said: Well you nailed it. !!!! Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaCrispy Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Sadly, Edmunds will likely always be a mediocre player who will never live up to his God given athletic ability… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DabillsDaBillsDaBills Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 9 hours ago, Flucod said: Did he get credit for a tackle on the whiff to push the RB out of bounds and then the RB went another 8 yards and stepped out? I cannot remember a single play he actually made last night. I can remember at least 15 times he could not read the run and watched the RB go by and is just standing there confused. Milano ran side to side and drilled the RB for no gain, THAT ply I remember and the INT. Edmunds needs to tackle low on RB, he is too small to tackle by the shoulders and he cannot hit. He has played great this year until last night, last night looked like a different player out there. That play and the one where he had the RB wrapped up for minimal gain only to get dragged 5+ yards downfield really stood out to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineforty Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 some fans after Edmunds plays well 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 12 hours ago, BillsFan130 said: Sometimes I wonder if I watch the same games as Tremaine Edmunds fans.. I saw a guy who was getting eat up by blocks, picking the wrong gaps all Game, and getting run over by Aj Dillon . Sure he made 16 tackles, but how many were those 6-10’yards downfield? Now I will say Edmunds has had a pretty good year to date. But I don’t see how he had a good game yesterday as I thought he was borderline horrible. Would love to see a breakdown of his play including specifics about the defensive fits in general, his specific reads and fits, and diagrams showing what he was suppose to do versus what he actually did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramza86 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I see the room for growth for sure. Hes not rapidly getting better but hes def getting better and hes still a baby. He should be resigned but his asking price may be too steep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 18 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: Would love to see a breakdown of his play including specifics about the defensive fits in general, his specific reads and fits, and diagrams showing what he was suppose to do versus what he actually did. I think the reason why a lot of people at cover 1 and the film loves Edmunds is because he “does what he’s supposed to do” for the most part. However, it seems like he can never just go off script and “make a play “. Thats what makes good/great players in the nfl. See Milano for one. I’m sure he doesn’t hit every gap perfect, but the dude just makes impact plays game after game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigduke6 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) i dont like linebackers who get run over 6+ yards downfield on run plays. somebody needs to teach Edmunds about leverage. for a guy his size, hes playing much smaller. hes played better this season until the GB game. not sure if its him, or the better play by the new DTs. Edited November 1, 2022 by bigduke6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: I think the reason why a lot of people at cover 1 and the film loves Edmunds is because he “does what he’s supposed to do” for the most part. However, it seems like he can never just go off script and “make a play “. Thats what makes good/great players in the nfl. See Milano for one. I’m sure he doesn’t hit every gap perfect, but the dude just makes impact plays game after game Oh, I meant I'd like to see you provide that breakdown. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: Oh, I meant I'd like to see you provide that breakdown. 4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: Oh, I meant I'd like to see you provide that breakdown. Sounds good buddy, I’ll send you the invoice for my breakdown on him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: Sounds good buddy, I’ll send you the invoice for my breakdown on him! My apologies. I thought since you were throwing around statements as if they were fact that you'd be able to back them up. That's my mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rigotz Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Shaw66 said: 16 tackles is nothing to sneer at, even if it happened because the Packers featured the run. Yes, the Packers had a lot of statistical success running the ball, but the Bills are willing to give them that success. I know that sounds stupid, and McDermott would never say it, but let's face it: This team is built to say the opponent, "We're going to put up 28 or more - we challenge you to match it." Their defensive style very much is, "If you're going to move the ball, you're going to do it only with long, sustained drives. If you can do that, you'll get some scores against us, but we don't think you can do that and get to 28." And that is exactly what happened last night. The way that kind of defensive philosophy succeeds is that you make a lot tackles (notice that the Bills often lose time of possession and often have fewer plays than the opponent, which means the Bills are making a lot tackles). Last night, those tackles came to Edmunds. Shaw, great post, well thought out ... but I think you're missing one big weakness with Edmunds. Tackling the ball carrier 5 yards from the line of scrimmage isn't a win. I'll give you the most two recent examples of Bills linebackers who had a ton of tackles and weren't very good: - Preston Brown - literally led the league in tackles in 2018, but was a liability vs the pass and was slow. - Paul Posluszny - same story. Great instincts, but a slow twitch player with bad lateral mobility. Edmunds is different in that he is an explosive athlete and is reasonably strong in coverage. However, call it lack of instincts, or awareness, or slow twitch, but he has the same issue as Brown and Posluszny, which make him an average to slightly above average player -- he doesn't blow up plays. Nobody really thinks that Edmunds is a bad player, but we're collectively frustrated that the #16 overall draft pick, who has all the physical upside in the world, can't seem to make explosive plays after 5 years in the league. We assume he'll command $15M/Yr+ due to his consistently untapped "upside" ... and we collectively don't want to pay it. Hope this helps give the perspective you need. This seems to be a common theme, at least with my group of well educated Bills Fan friends. Edited November 1, 2022 by Rigotz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: My apologies. I thought since you were throwing around statements as if they were fact that you'd be able to back them up. That's my mistake. Nope I can’t, neither can any fan as we don’t have the play calls/responsibilities for each player on each play …lol So does mean none of us should have an opinion on players? Based on your logic there… Edited November 1, 2022 by BillsFan130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: Nope I can’t, neither can any fan as we don’t have the play calls/responsibilities for each player on each play …lol So does mean none of us should have an opinion on players? Based on your logic there… If you know football you can get a pretty clear picture of what a players responsibility is based on alignments and post-snap movements. This isn't a "you" problem. It's just amusing to me how much statements like "we constantly fit the wrong gaps" gets thrown around here by people who have zero understanding of scheme or, more specifically, how run fits work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Sadly, Edmunds will likely always be a mediocre player who will never live up to his God given athletic ability… "Mediocre" is an inaccurate characterization. We tend to always judge players more on where they were picked, or the capital we invested in them, instead of on their own merits. I can accept that he may not have lived up to the draft position & trade for that position yet. But he's a very good player, and a key part of our defense. He's not mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billieve420 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Don't hate Edmunds but don't think it is going to be worth the money that he is going to receive on the open market. Would like team to go cheaper at that position instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: If you know football you can get a pretty clear picture of what a players responsibility is based on alignments and post-snap movements. This isn't a "you" problem. It's just amusing to me how much statements like "we constantly fit the wrong gaps" gets thrown around here by people who have zero understanding of scheme or, more specifically, how run fits work. I never once said “this is what happened because he didn’t fit the “A gap well” or whatever spin you want to put on it. I said “I saw a guy” and listed the things I thought he didn’t do well. Its called an opinion. It’s a message board. Believe it or not , this is usually the place that people share their opinion on the bills and football and not everything is “black and white” Which is why people agree/disagree with different “opinions”. Edited November 1, 2022 by BillsFan130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Iverwig said: This year?!?! He’s been the whipping boy since he got here. He’s had a very good year. For the most part those who don’t like him will always pick out his mistakes and stay quiet when he does well. Yeah, I hear ya, but Star was a favorite here for a while. So true on the bolded part. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said: I never once said “this is what happened”. I said “I saw a guy” and listed the things I thought he didn’t do well. Its called an opinion. It’s a message board. Believe it or not , this is usually the place that people share their opinion on the bills and football and not everything is “black and white” Which is why it’s fun to agree/disagree with different “opinions”.. "I saw a guy picking the wrong gaps all game" sounds more like a statement of fact than opinion to me. Anyway, didn't mean to pick at you specifically. This just seems to be a common theme around here. People making blanket statements without the ability to back them up and then they deflect once they are questioned about those statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I saw him standing around other people making plays or getting dragged down the field. Classic Edmunds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: LOL, the London "He Makes Tackles 6-8 Yards Downfield" Fletcher justification. We ran him outta town, and he only played 7 more years and racked up over 900 tackles for the WTF's. He also ended Fitz's stay in Buffalo with that vicious liver shot. Santayana is laughing his ass off right now. London Fletcher, Poz, Preston Brown, Edmunds....very different players, same criticisms. This board thinks all linebacker play should look like prime Ray Lewis flying down hill in a run first league. Ray only ever made tackles behind the line of scrimmage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: "I saw a guy picking the wrong gaps all game" sounds more like a statement of fact than opinion to me. Anyway, didn't mean to pick at you specifically. This just seems to be a common theme around here. People making blanket statements without the ability to back them up and then they deflect once they are questioned about those statements. It wasn’t a blanket statement. It was my opinion on what I saw. I don’t have the Xs and Os and I can very well be wrong. But to “Me”, he just looked lost out there on Sunday night and seemingly seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said: It wasn’t a blanket statement. It was my opinion on what I saw. I don’t have the Xs and Os and I can very well be wrong. But to “Me”, he just looked lost out there on Sunday night and seemingly seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times. I guess I just don't understand how you can say he "seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times" when you don't know where he was suppose to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: I guess I just don't understand how you can say he "seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times" when you don't know where he was suppose to be. When he is blocked and he goes inside and the RB goes outside for an example.. My biggest issue was him not being able to shed off any blocks and make any impact plays 14 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: I guess I just don't understand how you can say he "seemed to be in the wrong spot a lot of the times" when you don't know where he was suppose to be. What was your opinions on Edmunds game out of curiosity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 40 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: If you know football you can get a pretty clear picture of what a players responsibility is based on alignments and post-snap movements. This isn't a "you" problem. It's just amusing to me how much statements like "we constantly fit the wrong gaps" gets thrown around here by people who have zero understanding of scheme or, more specifically, how run fits work. How much would the Bills D suffer if Edmunds isn't here next year? Do you feel he is replaceable relatively easily or a major loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said: When he is blocked and he goes inside and the RB goes outside for an example.. My biggest issue was him not being able to shed off any blocks and make any impact plays As an inside backer in a 4-3 box (which is what we were in most of the night) you are a spill player. Essentially you're job is to fit the open gap as tight as you can to force the ball to "spill" outside to our unblocked defenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilthyBeast Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I've been a big critic of Edmunds in the past, but he's been pretty good so far this year up until the other night when I thought he clearly had his worst game of the year and looked like the guy who was an easy target to criticize in the past. Assuming it was just a bad game which is going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: When he is blocked and he goes inside and the RB goes outside for an example.. My biggest issue was him not being able to shed off any blocks and make any impact plays What was your opinions on Edmunds game out of curiosity? Those types of plays where Edmunds plugs a gap in the middle and the RB stretches outside are frequent points of criticism. Everyone says he hits the wrong the hole. Pretty sure thats what run defense looks like. Plugging gaps and forcing RBs to run east and west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoMAn Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I've been a vocal critic of Edmunds before this season. He earned the criticism with poor tackling, getting blocked out of plays, taking bad angles, etc. But, it's obvious he's stepped up his game this year in a big way. I think he heard the whispers and probably got together with his coaches to help see what he could do to improve. He's done a great job this season. Give credit where's it's due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: As an inside backer in a 4-3 box (which is what we were in most of the night) you are a spill player. Essentially you're job is to fit the open gap as tight as you can to force the ball to "spill" outside to our unblocked defenders. Ok and he’s not allowed to shed a block and make a tackle? Again, what is your opinion on how he played out of curiosity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, Big Turk said: How much would the Bills D suffer if Edmunds isn't here next year? Do you feel he is replaceable relatively easily or a major loss? I know you didn't ask me, but it would be a major loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said: I've been a big critic of Edmunds in the past, but he's been pretty good so far this year up until the other night when I thought he clearly had his worst game of the year and looked like the guy who was an easy target to criticize in the past. Assuming it was just a bad game which is going to happen. It wasnt a bad game. We were up by 3 scores in the second half. LaFleur stopped trying to win and was content to cover the spread. We gladly traded them worthless rushing yards in exchange for burning clock. We were not going to let Rodgers beat us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Big Turk said: How much would the Bills D suffer if Edmunds isn't here next year? Do you feel he is replaceable relatively easily or a major loss? It would certainly be a loss. He's without a doubt a top 10 player at his position in the league. Our DL looked like DL's of past years against the Packers - defensive ends not getting hands on tackles and defensive tackles not getting hands on guards and centers. There were free releases from OL up to the second level all night long when they were running GH Counter and Outside Zone. The defensive line play wasn't good and Taron got fooled a couple of times with eye candy on misdirection out of the backfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 minute ago, HoofHearted said: It would certainly be a loss. He's without a doubt a top 10 player at his position in the league. Our DL looked like DL's of past years against the Packers - defensive ends not getting hands on tackles and defensive tackles not getting hands on guards and centers. There were free releases from OL up to the second level all night long when they were running GH Counter and Outside Zone. The defensive line play wasn't good and Taron got fooled a couple of times with eye candy on misdirection out of the backfield. I feel like everything you just said reminds us why you can’t be paying two LB’s big time money when DL and Secondary are so much more important. Edmunds looks great when the DL is dominant. Edmunds has his worst game of the year when the DL struggles in run defense. Ok… Well, that is precisely why letting him walk after the season isn’t a massive blow to the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said: Ok and he’s not allowed to shed a block and make a tackle? Again, what is your opinion on how he played out of curiosity? Packers game planned around him and the interior defensive line. When they ran counter they free released their offensive tackle directly to Edmunds. Without our defensive ends getting hands on those tackles and not allowing them to immediately work second level Edmunds had no shot. Which forced him to fit underneath that block and Taron to wrap over top. Milano and Taron both looked slow all night in their fits vs gap scheme concepts. The outside zone game they were free releasing their center up to Edmunds and they just reached our big interior DL with ease. Forced our corners to make tackles on those big backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: It would certainly be a loss. He's without a doubt a top 10 player at his position in the league. Our DL looked like DL's of past years against the Packers - defensive ends not getting hands on tackles and defensive tackles not getting hands on guards and centers. There were free releases from OL up to the second level all night long when they were running GH Counter and Outside Zone. The defensive line play wasn't good and Taron got fooled a couple of times with eye candy on misdirection out of the backfield. Do you think some of that was because the Bills were expecting pass most of the 2nd half? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoofHearted Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Just now, SCBills said: I feel like everything you just said reminds us why you can’t be paying two LB’s big time money when DL and Secondary are so much more important. Edmunds looks great when the DL is dominant. Edmunds has his worst game of the year when the DL struggles in run defense. Ok… Well, that is precisely why letting him walk after the season isn’t a massive blow to the defense. Every LB looks great vs the run with a dominant DL. That's why teams invest so much money in them. Finding a LB who can fit the run as well as Edmunds isn't the issue, it's finding a guy who can do what Edmunds does in coverage that will be hard to replace. I'm with you though, I dunno how they'll be able to afford to keep him. 2 minutes ago, Big Turk said: Do you think some of that was because the Bills were expecting pass most of the 2nd half? Outside of Von - none of our guys are good enough right now to go into a play with a pass rush mindset regardless of what their read tells them to do. It shouldn't be allowed. Read your key and react accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: Packers game planned around him and the interior defensive line. When they ran counter they free released their offensive tackle directly to Edmunds. Without our defensive ends getting hands on those tackles and not allowing them to immediately work second level Edmunds had no shot. Which forced him to fit underneath that block and Taron to wrap over top. Milano and Taron both looked slow all night in their fits vs gap scheme concepts. The outside zone game they were free releasing their center up to Edmunds and they just reached our big interior DL with ease. Forced our corners to make tackles on those big backs. I’ve asked twice , I’ll ask again haha. Quantifiably, how do you think Edmunds played on Sunday night? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said: Every LB looks great vs the run with a dominant DL. That's why teams invest so much money in them. Finding a LB who can fit the run as well as Edmunds isn't the issue, it's finding a guy who can do what Edmunds does in coverage that will be hard to replace. I'm with you though, I dunno how they'll be able to afford to keep him. And that is why I have repeatedly and emphatically said that Edmunds is going to get a massive contract that is far higher than most expect and will shock a lot of people. Because there is at least one team out there that thinks they are a Tremaine Edmunds away from becoming a top defense against the pass that is in the bottom third of the league right now. Edited November 1, 2022 by Big Turk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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