Reported Bills UDFA signing - 11 signed, 3 Camp Invites *Updated* 09:32 (4 open spots)

[Rhode Island Red]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Fuller is 6'1" and 180#.

My bad…he looked freaking tiny to me…??

 

Meanwhile, Blackshear is only 5’9”, but he’s 194… pretty sure that’s not ‘smurf’ territory, either so guess I should just shut up and go to bed…

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Rhode Island Red

[BillsFanForever19]

7 hours ago, Mopreme said:

I don’t understand why Bills won’t pull trigger on Justyn Ross. Yes, injury concerns but at this point he would just be undrafted free agent with minimal financial impact. Am I missing something? A couple of years ago they look a change on that tackle who had horrid medicals. Yes, didn’t work out for him but why not take a chance on a first round talent? 

 

Spinal injuries and surgeries are a much bigger issue than knees. From the sounds of it, there's questions as to whether Clemson should have cleared him and whether an NFL team would have. The fact that he was not only not drafted but that no one will sign him speaks volumes.

 

And comparing Doug Whaley deciding to take a chance on Cyrus Kouandjio's knees to Brandon Beane deciding on whether or not to take a chance on Justyn Ross' spine is the ultimate apples to oranges comparison.

Edited May 2, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[78thealltimegreat]

Lack of depth at TE really opens the door for Jalen Wydermyer. Goes from the projected no 1 TE to undrafted in less then a year…He tested so poorly this off season but you watch him play and think there’s no way he can be this bad. At the very least gets a chance to make up for it in camp. 

[Richard Noggin]

On 4/30/2022 at 8:27 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

For the Love of Little Pink Penquins, What the ***** is our plan at OG?

 

This seems like an uncharacteristically..."concerned" post from you.

 

On 4/30/2022 at 8:57 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Mancz is the equivalent of Jeremiah Sirles.........who half the board had no idea he was on the team.............and Ike tore his achilles this past season and even the homer Sal Capaccio says he isn't sure if Boettger will be healthy enough to make the team in September. 

 

This IS before injuries and covid list(which is still a thing in sports).

 

Their depth is VERY suspect at interior OL depth.

 

You're ignoring Ford and Quessenberry (and of course I recognize that many fans don't rate these two favorably). 

 

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That would not be a bad idea at all, but I'm guessing the Quessenberry signing is their Guard/T Williams replacement

 

Quite possibly Williams is still hoping to get closer to the salary he was due to receive from the Bills, or at least Saffold-level pay

 

 

It makes me nervous when I find myself agreeing with you, but this is pretty much how I see it.

 

A counter-point is that the Chiefs had a stronger need for a complete OL rebuild.  In 2020, the Chiefs lost their LT to an Achilles tear, and their center was not All That.    So it made sense for them to invest in LT (trade) and C (draft)

 

2021 was arguably Morse' best year, and prior to 2021, the Bills appeared to be set at LT (Dawkins) and RT (Williams)

 

The big difference IMHO was the KC investment in a top FA guard (Thuney) while the Bills did not make that investment last year or this year.  Of course, the Chiefs also invested a late draft pick at a talented G who fell in the draft due to medical concerns.  The Bills invested a mid-round and late pick on OL, but they have made NO comparable investments at IOL.

 

Something tells me you're concerned about the level of investment in the IOL (lol)? 

 

Thing about investing is, it's judged primarily by the return. If it works, that's the bottom line. 

 

We can presumably see the Bills taking a leaner approach to the IOL portion of their roster portfolio than we'd prefer, but it doesn't actually mean we're staked to a losing position. Maybe they believe in the horses they have, and believe in them enough at least to allow for the more aggressive allocation elsewhere. After all, it's about how the overall product performs.

 

(I think I effing HATE this extended metaphor. Apologies.) Nevertheless, Bates and Saffold are, at the most skeptical end of the spectrum, average fits for an outside zone scheme (I think, and have thought for more than a year, that Bates is a hidden gem). That's fine if your LT and C are above average fits, and your RT has potential to be average-to-above-average. Would one more high-end IOL prospect be better? Eff yes. But maybe we can wait for one more year and then replace Saffold with Bates and replace Bates with a TALENTED G?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Something tells me you're concerned about the level of investment in the IOL (lol)? 

 

Thing about investing is, it's judged primarily by the return. If it works, that's the bottom line. 

 

We can presumably see the Bills taking a leaner approach to the IOL portion of their roster portfolio than we'd prefer, but it doesn't actually mean we're staked to a losing position. Maybe they believe in the horses they have, and believe in them enough at least to allow for the more aggressive allocation elsewhere. After all, it's about how the overall product performs.

 

Ha.  Well, to continue your analogy - every prospectus has some small print saying "past performance does not guarantee future results".   Of course it doesn't, but nonetheless, investors use past results of various kinds to predict what the future performance of that investment may be.

 

So what are the Bills past investment results on the OL under Beane?

2018: horrible.  Beane said after the season, he was cap limited but he could have done more, he should have done more

2019: significant improvement under Bobby Johnson.  our run game improved and Josh had more time to throw, most games.  but we improved from a low bar to a meh bar IMHO.  Traded Wyatt Teller just before the season.

2020: stronger pass pro with Darryl Williams solidifying the RT position, but Trouble in the Run Game teepee with zone blocking

2021: run game follies continued.  we re-instituted more gap and pin and pull plays in the run game.  Bobby Johnson left after the season.  FA additions such as Forrest Lamp and Jamil Douglas did not prove out.  Extensive OL remodeling during the season to attempt to find a lineup that worked.

 

Bottom line, over the last 4 years IMO the management, the talent acquisition, and the results on OL have all been suspect.  So while you may be right that the Bills believe in the "horses they have", past performance leads one to question the basis for that believe and its soundness

[transplantbillsfan]

Without searching for it did we cut anyone? Yesterday this thread said we were at 90 already. Was that inaccurate?

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

This seems like an uncharacteristically..."concerned" post from you.

 

 

You're ignoring Ford and Quessenberry (and of course I recognize that many fans don't rate these two favorably). 

 

 

 

I'm not ignoring them........I am discounting them.    I have no faith in Cody Ford,  he has only gone from bad to worse each season. 

 

And Quessenberry doesn't rate favorably because he allowed the most sacks in the NFL in 2021...........ELEVEN.........that is why he was available.   He is basically Jordan Mills-level in pass pro.

 

I like Aaron Kromer a lot............I gave him tons of credit for the Roman offense's..........which I was one of the few posters around here who appreciated because the majority were just hate-watching Tyrod Taylor and cared little about anything else even though they were leading the NFL in rushing and a very good scoring team.

 

But I don't like playing fast and loose with the pass protection for my elite QB.

[NickelCity]

I believe the Kerstetter kid can play all 5 positions on the line.... Don't know how well of course but it seems very Bates-esque

[Richard Noggin]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ha.  Well, to continue your analogy - every prospectus has some small print saying "past performance does not guarantee future results".   Of course it doesn't, but nonetheless, investors use past results of various kinds to predict what the future performance of that investment may be.

 

So what are the Bills past investment results on the OL under Beane?

2018: horrible.  Beane said after the season, he was cap limited but he could have done more, he should have done more

2019: significant improvement under Bobby Johnson.  our run game improved and Josh had more time to throw, most games.  but we improved from a low bar to a meh bar IMHO.  Traded Wyatt Teller just before the season.

2020: stronger pass pro with Darryl Williams solidifying the RT position, but Trouble in the Run Game teepee with zone blocking

2021: run game follies continued.  we re-instituted more gap and pin and pull plays in the run game.  Bobby Johnson left after the season.  FA additions such as Forrest Lamp and Jamil Douglas did not prove out.  Extensive OL remodeling during the season to attempt to find a lineup that worked.

 

Bottom line, over the last 4 years IMO the management, the talent acquisition, and the results on OL have all been suspect.  So while you may be right that the Bills believe in the "horses they have", past performance leads one to question the basis for that believe and its soundness

 

Difficult to disagree with anything here. Maybe it's about what you're omitting, then?

 

For starters: Bates. He's a fine young starting-caliber IOL piece with tons of flex and plenty of athleticism to fit the zone-heavy scheme he'll be in. 

 

Next: Saffold. We can sidestep his pro bowl status last season in favor of something like this: aging LG with history of high-end zone run blocking and declining average-ish pass blocking. Probably a solid one-year stop-gap on-the-field and a vital resource for installing Kromer's wide-zone scheme. 

 

Depth is underwhelming with respect to starting pipeline management, but we shouldn't ignore Ford's adequate replacement performances late in the season, or Quessenberry's value with RT/RG flex. Of course we'd prefer a 3rd starting-caliber OG. I don't know much at all about Mercz (or even if I'm spelling his name correctly). And Boettger would represent SOLID OG depth if he hadn't torn his achilles last year. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Kromer will determine that this summer. He's not going anywhere until after he's been through Training Camp and the Preseason, at least.

 

Yeah he still sucks, kromer going to find out real quick

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Neither, Old Norse 💪💪

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Buffalo Barbarian

[GreggTX]

If any of these UDFA OL are any good, they have a real shot at this roster. We have 3 solid OL on the roster (Dawkins, Saffold & Morse) but after that, nothing much to speak of. The talent level drops off precipitously. If any of those top 3 OL go down, things could get really ugly. I figure at least 1 or 2 rookie OL can make the final 53.

[Garrett Williams]

47 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

I believe the Kerstetter kid can play all 5 positions on the line.... Don't know how well of course but it seems very Bates-esque

Not at the same time

 

 

[GreggTX]

4 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

I want Ford gone because of how horrible he has been and the fact we didn't draft DK Metcalf instead. In reality id like him to succeed but i highly doubt it, a coach can only do so much.

 

 

Agreed, but right now he's still the 2nd best G on the roster after Saffold. I hope 1 of these rookie OL turns out to be the steal of the year.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

13 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Agreed, but right now he's still the 2nd best G on the roster after Saffold. I hope 1 of these rookie OL turns out to be the steal of the year.

 

Hes not better than Bates, not even close, id put Doyle and Quessenberry in guard over Ford.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Difficult to disagree with anything here. Maybe it's about what you're omitting, then?

 

Don't think I'm omitting anything

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

For starters: Bates. He's a fine young starting-caliber IOL piece with tons of flex and plenty of athleticism to fit the zone-heavy scheme he'll be in. 

 

I'm not an NFL GM.  But in his post-season presser, a man named "Beane" who is referred to our OL with Bates as "a starting place".    Not a finished product; not "good to go"; "A Starting Place."

1) Bates has started 4 games.  He left the first one when he was injured after 10 snaps.  We have yet to see how he'll hold up as a starter over a full season

What's the plan if he can't hold up?

2) Bates played well at LG.  Now we want him to play RG.  Some guys can move over seamlessly, some can't.

3) And again - the guy who is an NFL GM referred to the OL that ended the season as "a starting place".  So why is staying at "the starting place" good?

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Next: Saffold. We can sidestep his pro bowl status last season in favor of something like this: aging LG with history of high-end zone run blocking and declining average-ish pass blocking. Probably a solid one-year stop-gap on-the-field and a vital resource for installing Kromer's wide-zone scheme. 

 

1) We can't sidestep the fact that while he played in 15 games last year, he played less than 60% of the snaps in 4 of them.  That would imply that in 6 of 17 games, he was not "full go" - that's 35% of the games.  What's the plan to compensate for that?  Maybe our S&C staff will get him right.  Maybe they won't.

2) Saffold's pro bowl was for his prowess in run blocking.  Saffold is undoubtedly an upgrade over Williams for run blocking, but we're a passing team.

 

And again - this is not new writing for me, I've detailed all this before.

 

44 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Depth is underwhelming with respect to starting pipeline management, but we shouldn't ignore Ford's adequate replacement performances late in the season, or Quessenberry's value with RT/RG flex. Of course we'd prefer a 3rd starting-caliber OG. I don't know much at all about Mercz (or even if I'm spelling his name correctly). And Boettger would represent SOLID OG depth if he hadn't torn his achilles last year. 

 

I believe I heard somewhere that Quessenberry gave up a league leading number of sacks.  I don't think we should ignore that.

 

Mancz is a career journeyman.  He had a chance to start for Houston his 2nd season, and couldn't hang on to the job.  He can play at C and both G positions, just not well enough to have been able to hold down a starting position.  Basically, Feliciano lite.  He's a good fill-in, but probably not good enough to anchor a spot for 35% of the season.

 

I agree, Boettger would represent solid OG depth (and maybe contend as a starter) if he hadn't torn his Achilles.  If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.....

 

Again - when the Bills GM refers to our line as "a starting place", then returns the same line with one substitution for a guy who is arguably better at one aspect of his job, but worse at the aspect that is most important to the Bills (pass blocking) - and worse at availability.....it's not a situation that raises confidence in the "investors"

18 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Agreed, but right now he's still the 2nd best G on the roster after Saffold. I hope 1 of these rookie OL turns out to be the steal of the year.

 

"I'm a chicken wing!  I'm a ***** chicken wing!" says "no"

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Without searching for it did we cut anyone? Yesterday this thread said we were at 90 already. Was that inaccurate?

 

Yes the OP double counted the draft picks and therefore was off by 8.

 

The updated roster numbers already included the draft picks - then he added them to the updated roster - putting us at 83 rather than the 75 we were at.

 

Now with 10 UDFAs - we have 5 spots left.

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don't think I'm omitting anything

 

 

I'm not an NFL GM.  But in his post-season presser, a man named "Beane" who is referred to our OL with Bates as "a starting place".    Not a finished product; not "good to go"; "A Starting Place."

1) Bates has started 4 games.  He left the first one when he was injured after 10 snaps.  We have yet to see how he'll hold up as a starter over a full season

What's the plan if he can't hold up?

2) Bates played well at LG.  Now we want him to play RG.  Some guys can move over seamlessly, some can't.

3) And again - the guy who is an NFL GM referred to the OL that ended the season as "a starting place".  So why is staying at "the starting place" good?

 

 

1) We can't sidestep the fact that while he played in 15 games last year, he played less than 60% of the snaps in 4 of them.  That would imply that in 6 of 17 games, he was not "full go" - that's 35% of the games.  What's the plan to compensate for that?  Maybe our S&C staff will get him right.  Maybe they won't.

2) Saffold's pro bowl was for his prowess in run blocking.  Saffold is undoubtedly an upgrade over Williams for run blocking, but we're a passing team.

 

And again - this is not new writing for me, I've detailed all this before.

 

 

I believe I heard somewhere that Quessenberry gave up a league leading number of sacks.  I don't think we should ignore that.

 

Mancz is a career journeyman.  He had a chance to start for Houston his 2nd season, and couldn't hang on to the job.  He can play at C and both G positions, just not well enough to have been able to hold down a starting position.  Basically, Feliciano lite.  He's a good fill-in, but probably not good enough to anchor a spot for 35% of the season.

 

I agree, Boettger would represent solid OG depth (and maybe contend as a starter) if he hadn't torn his Achilles.  If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.....

 

Again - when the Bills GM refers to our line as "a starting place", then returns the same line with one substitution for a guy who is arguably better at one aspect of his job, but worse at the aspect that is most important to the Bills (pass blocking) - and worse at availability.....it's not a situation that raises confidence in the "investors"

 

"I'm a chicken wing!  I'm a ***** chicken wing!" says "no"

 

We added 4 players in Free Agency that are Guards or who can play Guard. There are currently EIGHT on our roster:

 

Rodger Saffold, Ryan Bates, David Quessenberry, Ike Boettger, David Mancz, Cody Ford, Jacob Capra, Alec Anderson

 

You seem to have a "yeah, but" for almost every one. But your not liking what he's done is irrelevant. What is relevant is that Beane, McDermott, and Kromer see value in them or else they wouldn't have been brought in.

 

And if they were as worried about it as you are, they would have Drafted someone. The fact that they didn't speaks volumes to me (Terrel Bernard over Dylan Parham sticks out to me).

 

We're looking at the same line as last season with the following changes:

 

- Rodger Saffold - a Pro Bowl Guard we paid 6 million guaranteed to with our very first move in Free Agency - replacing Daryl Williams on the starting Line. Aaron Kromer coached him for multiple seasons. He has rapport with him and is aware of his strengths and weaknesses and will surely scheme to them.

 

- Ryan Bates moving from LG to RG. You keep going back to some "starting point" line. But the fact is, if Beane didn't see him as their Starter at RG for the season, he wouldn't have matched the long term offer from the Bears for 4 years, 17 million with 9 million guaranteed. He'd have let him walk and brought in a cheaper alternative as a reserve. 

 

- David Quessenberry will replace Jon Feliciano's roster spot last season as a Reserve while providing the flexibility to fill in at Guard or Tackle. He started all 17 games at RT for Tennessee last season. He couldn't be much worse than Feliciano or Doyle were for us last season.

 

- David Mancz will serve in Ike Boettger's role as a reserve, until he is ready to come off PUP (if he's not ready to start the season). He may or may not stick afterwards, depending on how Ike comes along and how he performs. He started 4 games last season for Miami and they must have seen something in his game and play last year to feel comfortable with him filling in if someone were to get hurt.

 

- Tommy Doyle will have a competition with Luke Tenuta as the last OT reserve on the 53, with the loser ending up gone or on the Practice Squad.

 

- And Aaron Kromer is a much more experienced coach than Bobby Johnson. I truly feel that his leaving was addition by subtraction (and I believe they do as well). I believe he'll do a better job with blocking schemes than we've seen in the past few years that could pay dividends.

 

Ultimately, you may not have liked some of the moves that were made or felt that they could have done more. But the Offensive Line (and Guard in particular) were addressed with multiple moves.

 

There's 15 Offensive Lineman on the roster right now that will be widdled down to 9. Your having doubts in the moves doesn't mean they didn't happen or they're going to do more by replacing the replacements because you feel they feel they should have done better. And looking at the Guards that are available at this point, I don't really see anyone out there that would provide a big upgrade.

Edited May 2, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[MAJBobby]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Without searching for it did we cut anyone? Yesterday this thread said we were at 90 already. Was that inaccurate?

I had a math issue. Double counted the Draft picks. 

[MAJBobby]

2nd camp invite 

 

 

[Magox]

A lot of teeth gnashing over the offensive line.  It’s clear that on paper the O-line is better than last year.

 

Spencer Brown going into his second year should be better than his rookie year.

 

Bates going into his first full season as the favored starter should be as good or better than last year.

 

Morse is solid.

 

Saffold is clear of Darryl Williams.

Dawkins is solid.

 

Depth: Boettger has starting experience and is serviceable relative to depth O-linemen in the league.

Quessenberry is solid depth for both IOL and swing tackle. 
Ford/Mancz/Doyle/Anderson.   You hope one of those guys emerge as viable depth.

 

Barring injury the line is fine enough.   They may go after another quality depth piece in FA this year.    Next year they will draft one with one of their premium draft choices.