Reported Bills UDFA signing - 11 signed, 3 Camp Invites *Updated* 09:32 (4 open spots)

[Doc]

29 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Ok Nevermind Doc. They did everything they could possible do….

 

No, you're right Scott.   They didn't do much and they should have signed Norwell instead of Saffold and should have reached for a RT in the 2nd and that guy would have been a surefire better player than Brown will be in his 2nd season. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

Jalen Wydemeyer, I would guess. I get the Lindy's draft issue every year and the magazine can be way off with rankings of certain positions, but this tight end in this magazine is rated the second best tight end. I don't recall ever seeing a ufda having been this highly ranked by this magazine, not sure if it's a screwups but this magazine says round 1 or two, thoughts????

  Ok I reedited this guess he ran a 5.03 at the combine, guessing it's all about that, this magazine has a 4.67 40 not sure how they come up with that since they are obviously in print beforehand. 

 

Apparently he said he was feeling ill at the Combine.  The 4.67 may have been an informal measurement at his college.

[FLFan]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Great, the team believes in Ford.  But every time he's had the opportunity to start, he's played himself onto the bench quite promptly.  Beane said off-season last year he felt he was one of our best 5.  That wasn't true.  If this was because of injury, then he's injured too often to rely upon.  I'd like to believe in Ford, he seems to be an estimable young man, but when the Bills have relied upon him he's let us down.  But I'm not going to argue another person's words here.

 

It's really not about the quality of the backups, it's about whether Beane's done enough to upgrade the starting OL.

 

Here's the thing, Giuseppe: the OL last season ranged from mediocre to tire fire.  People attribute the up-tick in rushing yards to Bates subbing for injured Boettger.   That's not quite true.  They improved to mediocre and we ran OK at the end of the season in part because we used Allen as our best RB, running him an average of 9x per game.  That's not sustainable if we want him to have a long career.  We also used Tommy Doyle as a 2nd TE and benched Tommy Sweeney.  We also used a fullback more.  That's great, but these changes take targets for Josh off the field and make it more likely he'll have to scramble to convert 1st downs.

 

In his post season presser, Beane referred to Dawkins-Bates-Morse-Williams-Brown as "a starting point". 

 

Either you feel Dawkins-Saffold-Morse-Bates-Brown is "an upgrade" on that starting point, or you don't.  I don't,  I think that's where others who are stressing about the OL are coming from.  Bates may be as good at RG as he showed at LG.  I didn't see him as a zone run blocking mauler.  Saffold is a much better run blocker but is not a strong pass blocker, and was injured a lot last season. 

 

It's great if the Bills can address the position in FA, but the top FA guards are signing for $14M AAV with $30M guaranteed.  Saffold was a mediocre FA signing, even though I like him as a player more than several knowledgeable folks do, because of his age (33) and his injury history.  It's really not a clear upgrade on Williams, because of the missed time last season and because while he's 100% better run blocker than Williams, he's not as good in pass protection, possibly a downgrade on Boettger and Bates at LG in pass pro. 

 

And if the Bills draft a guard, in the 2nd to 5th round next year, we'll be counting on him for an immediate upgrade instead of giving him a year to learn behind Saffold and gain some playing time with the inevitable injuries.

 

Fundamentally, what this is about for me is not trusting Beane to put his money (and his resources) where his mouth is on OL.  He openly acknowledges he didn't do enough at OL in 2018.  2019 was better but the 2019 and 2020 playoffs showed all our OL flaws and the 2020 season was the start of a flawed run game as well, as we transitioned to a zone run blocking scheme our OL struggled to execute.  2021 was, if anything, worse at the start. 

 

It's just not clear Beane has done enough.

 

 

 

I like this draft more than some clearly do, but I am nervous about the OL.  I had expected an IOL to develop and compete for a role somewhere on Day 2.  In my mind, failing to address the biggest hole on the team in round 1 with a talent like Elam sitting there would have been criminal.  You can blame the OL for the playoff loss I guess, but in my mind that is far down the list of issues in why they lost.  To me the biggest was that without Tre White and counting on Levi Wallace as CB1 and the second tier players behind him, the Bills were doomed against Mahomes from the start.  The next biggest issue was pass rush and they tried to address that as well.  

 

You could certainly argue IOL should have been a priority in round 2, or certainly round 3.  I get the sense the board just did not fall their way but who knows.  In any case they did grab an offensive playmaker for Allen, a point many here were adamant about, and I think his skill set will help a great deal, even if he was picked a bit too early according to many draft experts.  Very good fit none the less and meets a need.  Round 3 is where I was really puzzled as most were and here is where they may have addressed the OL, assuming there was value there to be had.  You would know better than me.  I like the player they got, but I feel from both a need and value perspective, it’s a misfire.  

[Doc]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

Jalen Wydemeyer, I would guess. I get the Lindy's draft issue every year and the magazine can be way off with rankings of certain positions, but this tight end in this magazine is rated the second best tight end. I don't recall ever seeing a ufda having been this highly ranked by this magazine, not sure if it's a screwups but this magazine says round 1 or two, thoughts????

  Ok I reedited this guess he ran a 5.03 at the combine, guessing it's all about that, this magazine has a 4.67 40 not sure how they come up with that since they are obviously in print beforehand. 

 

Lindy's is my favorite.  I've gotten it almost every year since 1994.  But more than a few players they have ranked as the top players going into a season rarely pan-out that way after the season/come draft time.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Starr Almighty said:

The Bills didn't lose because of their OL. They couldn't get a pass rush on Mahomes causing them to lose.What do they go and do? Sign Von Miller

 

Our offense played lights-out during the post-season.

 

At times during the season, our OL appears to have been a strong contributing factor to several losses.  They couldn't manage an effective run game with zone blocking, leading to Daboll saying "why try?" in the gameplan for some opponents, leading to those opponents just teeing off against the pass with a bunch of stunts that would have been highly vulnerable to an effective rush attack.

 

 

[blacklabel]

1 hour ago, billrooter said:

Jalen Wydemeyer, I would guess. I get the Lindy's draft issue every year and the magazine can be way off with rankings of certain positions, but this tight end in this magazine is rated the second best tight end. I don't recall ever seeing a ufda having been this highly ranked by this magazine, not sure if it's a screwups but this magazine says round 1 or two, thoughts????

  Ok I reedited this guess he ran a 5.03 at the combine, guessing it's all about that, this magazine has a 4.67 40 not sure how they come up with that since they are obviously in print beforehand. 

Rankings are absolutely all over the board this year. I’d imagine in most years it’s like that except there are typically 5-10 consensus elite players plus a good 15-20 consensus first round guys. That wasn’t the case this year. No real elite players. Opinions are everywhere. Bob McGinn, a football writer for like 30 years does some real insightful draft pieces over on Tyler Dunne’s GoLong website. McGinn has a ton of sources he speaks with and he uses scout quotes in his draft profiles. I just looked at the feedback he got for the Bills picks this year. A guy like Shakir was all over the place with the scouts. One said he loved the kid and thought he could go as high as mid-second round. Another scout said the dude was too slow with short arms, won’t make it at all and wouldn’t even consider him as a undrafted free agent. It’s just kinda whacky there can be such differing opinions. On one board I saw, Elam was their top rated corner and rated the 14th best prospect overall. On another board they had him rated 49th overall. It really is a crapshoot and a lot of times it comes down to how teams see these players and how they think they can utilize them in their systems. 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Rankings are absolutely all over the board this year. I’d imagine in most years it’s like that except there are typically 5-10 consensus elite players plus a good 15-20 consensus first round guys. That wasn’t the case this year. No real elite players. Opinions are everywhere. Bob McGinn, a football writer for like 30 years does some real insightful draft pieces over on Tyler Dunne’s GoLong website. McGinn has a ton of sources he speaks with and he uses scout quotes in his draft profiles. I just looked at the feedback he got for the Bills picks this year. A guy like Shakir was all over the place with the scouts. One said he loved the kid and thought he could go as high as mid-second round. Another scout said the dude was too slow with short arms, won’t make it at all and wouldn’t even consider him as a undrafted free agent. It’s just kinda whacky there can be such differing opinions. On one board I saw, Elam was their top rated corner and rated the 14th best prospect overall. On another board they had him rated 49th overall. It really is a crapshoot and a lot of times it comes down to how teams see these players and how they think they can utilize them in their systems. 

 

That's why the draft is a crap shoot.

[blacklabel]

Just now, Doc said:

 

That's why the draft is a crap shoot.

One big ol’ poopershootin’s

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, Doc said:

No, you're right Scott.   They didn't do much and they should have signed Norwell instead of Saffold and should have reached for a RT in the 2nd and that guy would have been a surefire better player than Brown will be in his 2nd season. 

 

I know you're just being sarcastic, but I'm sure if you drank a few beers with Brandon Beane he'd acknowledge that in fact, he could have done more to improve the OL.

 

Norwell missed 3.5 games on IR in 2020, but played 100% of the snaps otherwise.  In 2021, he played 99% of the snaps (missed 6 snaps in 1 game).  He will turn 31 mid-season.

 

Saffold missed 4 games (2 each in 2020 and 2021) but only played 87% and 82% of the snaps otherwise. 

Last season, there were only 8 games where he played >95% of the snaps.  There were 4 games where he played <60% of the snaps.  That implies to me that he was playing hurt, and probably not as effective as he could have been even when playing.  Saffold will be 34.

 

So by some metrics, yes, Norwell would be a better choice.

 

The G TB drafted with the #25 2nd round pick they traded with us, was graded out as "good starter with the ability to make an impact sooner rather than later" and 2-3 round pick by Zierlein, so not much of a reach.  He was all-MAC in 2021.   (The G MINN drafted 2 picks later, was graded as a potential 5th round pick)

 

I believe there were also some well-regarded OL drafted early in the 3rd.

 

Of course, everyone sensible recognizes that even the highest evaluated prospects in the first 3 rounds only have about a 30% "hit rate" to become successful NFL starters.  But as the truism suggests, you never hit the shots you don't take.

 

 

[FLFan]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

I know many Bills fans have a hard time rewatching that game….but you should. The offensive line struggled for much of the game, particularly the right side, Josh just masked their issues with his ability to evade and be a ***** magician at times…. Their running game had nothing and their want to force it, particularly on a few 3rd and shorts stalled some really important drives…. That’s on coaching as well, as is punting on 4th and 1 when your defense can’t stop a thing. 

I understand the issue, I just think it was secondary to the pass coverage problems.  As is said, I am disappointed we have not done more on the OL, but it was not the only priority to address this off-season.  As far as the draft goes, CB was the best option and right call in Round 1 in my opinion.  

[Jauronimo]

Time to fall in love with marginal NFL talents and love them unconditionally while resenting our first and second round draft picks.  A tradition like no other @FireChans

[CorkScrewHill]

Interview with Keith Corbin and how Dion Sanders helped him develop

Interview starts at 10 minute mark 

Edited May 1, 2022 by CorkScrewHill

[Shaw66]

19 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

I joked in the Benford thread about teams poaching our practice squad. The UDFA signings are usually fun but we’re kinda just coaching them up for some other teams to grab now which makes it less fun for me anyways 

Well, this certainly is true, but ....  First, there's always the chance for the diamond in the rough to appear.  UDFAs make NFL squads all the time, including Levi Wallace.  Second, I'm increasingly impressed with how much players love the environment in Buffalo.  They love the facilities and the hometown feel, of course, but they also really appreciate the supportive culture, the culture that really does offer them the opportunity to become the best version of themselves. They develop their skills in Buffalo, and they make friends in Buffalo, and when they leave for other teams, they come to appreciate how powerful their experience was in Buffalo.  So, yes, guys will learn and develop on the Bills' practice squad and then leave for a spot on someone else's roster, but as we've seen with Shaq and Phillips, the experience in Buffalo actually draws guys back.  In that sense, these UDFAs are a long-term investment. 

[finn]

9 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I know many Bills fans have a hard time rewatching that game….but you should. The offensive line struggled for much of the game, particularly the right side, Josh just masked their issues with his ability to evade and be a ***** magician at times…. Their running game had nothing and their want to force it, particularly on a few 3rd and shorts stalled some really important drives…. That’s on coaching as well, as is punting on 4th and 1 when your defense can’t stop a thing. 

This was my perception, too. Allen covered up for uneven play from Williams and Brown, as he had for much of the season. I'm a big fan of Beane's drafting, but I wonder if the OL is his blind spot. In particular, he just doesn't seem to think guard is worth much. Feliciano, Boettger, Ford... these have been mediocre players at best. What other position are he and McDermott content with mediocre? 

 

 

[Starr Almighty]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Our offense played lights-out during the post-season.

 

At times during the season, our OL appears to have been a strong contributing factor to several losses.  They couldn't manage an effective run game with zone blocking, leading to Daboll saying "why try?" in the gameplan for some opponents, leading to those opponents just teeing off against the pass with a bunch of stunts that would have been highly vulnerable to an effective rush attack.

 

 

The post I replied to was talking about solely the post season 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[PayDaBill$]

Late to the party in this one but I love the addition of Jalen Wydemeyer, I think this was kind of a gift.  I’d expect him to make the cut.

[wppete]

Prince Emili DT from Penn look impressive. We might have something here. Impressive quickness and dissects the run plays quick using OLine ques. Im excited to see him develop. 
 

rince 

[Doc]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I know you're just being sarcastic, but I'm sure if you drank a few beers with Brandon Beane he'd acknowledge that in fact, he could have done more to improve the OL.

 

Norwell missed 3.5 games on IR in 2020, but played 100% of the snaps otherwise.  In 2021, he played 99% of the snaps (missed 6 snaps in 1 game).  He will turn 31 mid-season.

 

Saffold missed 4 games (2 each in 2020 and 2021) but only played 87% and 82% of the snaps otherwise. 

Last season, there were only 8 games where he played >95% of the snaps.  There were 4 games where he played <60% of the snaps.  That implies to me that he was playing hurt, and probably not as effective as he could have been even when playing.  Saffold will be 34.

 

So by some metrics, yes, Norwell would be a better choice.

 

The G TB drafted with the #25 2nd round pick they traded with us, was graded out as "good starter with the ability to make an impact sooner rather than later" and 2-3 round pick by Zierlein, so not much of a reach.  He was all-MAC in 2021.   (The G MINN drafted 2 picks later, was graded as a potential 5th round pick)

 

I believe there were also some well-regarded OL drafted early in the 3rd.

 

Of course, everyone sensible recognizes that even the highest evaluated prospects in the first 3 rounds only have about a 30% "hit rate" to become successful NFL starters.  But as the truism suggests, you never hit the shots you don't take.

 

You can always do more.  The problem is there are constraints with resource allocation and Beane would also tell you that.  Sure it would be great to have all-pros at every position, but there's not enough money for any team to accommodate that, much less one with a $40M/year QB.  So you do the best you can. 

 

As for what they did do, they already have Dawkins and Morse and that's a good start.  Both Saffold and Norwell play LG and both were available for the Bills to sign, but they felt that Saffold would be a better fit so they went with him, signing him 3 days before Norwell signed with Washington, a far worse team and organization, for similar 1st year money.  Then they matched the offer sheet for Bates, keeping a promising, young and versatile OL in the fold when most here were fearing he'd be lost.  So that basically leaves RT.  They have a young raw athletic freak who admittedly had growing pains in his rookie season but who they expect to improve.  Do you sign a FA RT or draft another 3rd round rookie to start over him and delay his growth?  And I still say that Daryl Williams in in play to return.

 

As for Luke Goedeke, his prospect grade on NFL.com is "will eventually be an average starter."  Doesn't sound too promising.  And again, the Bills signed Saffold and retained Bates to play OG so he wasn't likely going to start.

 

 

[Comebackkid]

40 minutes ago, wppete said:

Prince Emili DT from Penn look impressive. We might have something here. Impressive quickness and dissects the run plays quick using OLine ques. Im excited to see him develop. 
 

rince 

he does look quick and has a way with getting through the line but i wonder what the stiffest competition was he faced.   

also the best part is his number.   hopefully its a sign. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

You can always do more.  The problem is there are constraints with resource allocation and Beane would also tell you that.  Sure it would be great to have all-pros at every position, but there's not enough money for any team to accommodate that, much less one with a $40M/year QB.  So you do the best you can.

 

 

The flaw in that argument is that Beane says repeatedly that it all starts up front, on both sides of the ball, and that's how he builds the team.  He says that we have to protect Josh Allen, and part of that is the run game (which he acknowledges was limited by the OL more than the backs last year).  So we're not talking "every position".  We're talking key positions, as defined by Brandon "it all starts up front" "we've got to protect Josh Allen" "that's how I build the team" Beane.

 

Then he cheaps out on OL and ignores it in the draft, while spending widely on DL and using high draft picks on D.

 

I'm not making a specific argument "shoulda drafted this guy or that guy".  But since other teams are finding value in the draft and FA - I find it a bit hard to believe that Beane couldn't do more - not at EVERY position, but specifically on OL.  You know, up front - where Beane says he prioritizes building the team.

 

Having a $258M QB and then having your major effort to improve an OL you describe as "a starting place" be:

1) a 33 year old G who only played 87% and 82% of the snaps and 15 games the last 2 seasons - which translates to only missing 2 games last season, but playing less than 60% of the snaps in 4 more games, signed for 1 year at $6.2M

2) resigning an RFA with 4 games of experience for $2.3M cap this year

3) signing 4 more OLmen to vet min or near vet min deals - one coming back from an Achilles tear, and one named Bobby Hart

4) drafting an OT with Pick 31 in the 6th round - an OT described on NFL.com as "a potential undrafted free agent and could struggle to compete at the pro level"

does not compute with actually walking the walk Beane talks.

 

C'mon, man, don't try to defend that with the "can't have all pros at every position" schtick.  We're not talking "every position" here, we're talking the guys charged with keeping Josh Allen clean and giving him time to throw.

1 hour ago, FLFan said:

I understand the issue, I just think it was secondary to the pass coverage problems.  As is said, I am disappointed we have not done more on the OL, but it was not the only priority to address this off-season.  As far as the draft goes, CB was the best option and right call in Round 1 in my opinion.  

 

I have no quarrel with using our 1st round pick on a CB, or even on trading up to do so.

 

My issue is I find it hard to believe we were unable to find anyone who might improve our IOL, or any OLmen at all, prior to the bottom of the 6th round.