Name some good outside cornerbacks with sub 30 inch arms.

[billykay]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I don't think anyone has suggested the arm length will stop McDuffie being able to play in the NFL. I actually think he is very unlikely to be a bust. At worst I think he will be a very good slot corner. The point on McDuffie is I do see a ceiling limitation based on both his measurables and his play style. I don't think he will ever be a true high level #1 outside corner. I see him more as a good #2 corner on the outside or a top end slot. Then your question becomes is that worth a top 25 pick in the NFL draft? 

 

To me the answer is still, no. 

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

[PrimeTime101]

4 minutes ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

ever rent/buy a tux and get your arm measured, then on pickup day the arm length on the tux is perfect? Thats how

[BigAl2526]

Quite a few mocks lately have McDuffie going before the Bills pick, including too New England.  That would be goodnews for me if it happens.  I would much prefer Andrew Booth, and I think I could live with Kaiir Elam

[oldmanfan]

59 minutes ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

Exactly.  Without knowing the standard error we don’t know if he really has 30” reach or not.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I stopped reading the second you said that..

8 seconds look how high the dude jumped.  He jumped so high his legs from his knee to feet went horizontal with the field. for ONE SECOND... dont try and tell me Vertical leap does not make up for arm length.. 

 

 

HORRIBLE Narrative This is a ball that was about to hit a player on time right place at the players helmet and he jumped up and stole it... 

 

ever hear of the 50/50 ball? 

Jumping only makes up for short arms on plays in which the CB jumps up.  The majority of the passes defended don’t require the CB to jump.  

11 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

Quite a few mocks lately have McDuffie going before the Bills pick, including too New England.  That would be goodnews for me if it happens.  I would much prefer Andrew Booth, and I think I could live with Kaiir Elam

Elam can’t tackle.  Boo him @ 25.  

[MrEpsYtown]

Here is a little list i put together in another post. Now keep in mind that I love McDuffie and Stingley. I think mcDuffie was tailor made to play in this defense. Everything he does on film is what we do defensively. The arms don't bother me much because he is dynamic and super smart and a great tackler. The other thing is that the idea that he will struggle with bigger receiver is a projection. I really haven't seen it. 

 

James Bradberry is 33 3/8s

Daryl Worley is 33 3/8s

Tre White is 32 1/8th
Xavien Howard is 31.25

Denzel Ward is 31.25

Marshon Lattimore is 31.25

Jaire Alexander is 31 1/8th

Derek Stingley is 30 5/8s

McDuffie is 29.75

McCreary is 28 7/8s

Donte Jackson is 29.5

Byron Murphy is 30 1/8

 

In terms of wingspan, McDuffie is 72 3/8″. It's small, which I guess implies that he doesn't have super wide shoulders. Byron Murphy's wingspan is 71⅜. Donte Jackson is  71⅝. So I guess you could argue that his wingspan maybe helps him. 

 

To me what is important is what I see when I watch him play, and the RAS. 

 

Here is a useful chart showing all the corners: 

https://steelersdepot.com/2022/04/2022-draft-cornerback-prospects-relative-athletic-scores-ras/

 

I just love this dude. He oozes process. 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/trent-mcduffie-film-nfl-combine-draft-skill-set

[Buffalo Junction]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Great find….thank you.  Added that to my bookmarks.  So there’s one good cb in the last 34 years that had arms shorter than 30 inches.  
 

not saying McDuffie won’t be good. I like his tape.  He looks like a helluva player.  So did Donte Jackson when the panthers took him in rd 1.  If he’s out pick, I’m sure we’ll be getting a solid player that will start opposite Tre for a year or two, but may just end up replacing Taron in the slot. If money gets tight.  

Mark McMillian? 
 

The issue might be looking at outside draft prospects only. Generally speaking wingspan matters, especially when dealing with a lot of the longer receivers in the league. There are certainly some quality players at the 30”-30&1/2” though…. Especially if we include slot corners. 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hayward is as close as you come to making the point, he had a couple of years with the Chargers where he was a legit #1 outside corner. But even he started in the league in Green Bay as a nickel corner. He didn't become a starting outside corner until year 6, his second season on his second team. Murphy is a decent player, but while he 'starts' outside in base when the Cardinals go to nickel he plays the slot and Borders comes in on the outside. Murphy played over 100 more snaps in the slot in 2021 than he did outside. 

 

I would argue both of those actually prove my point. That you can have shorter arms and be a good NFL corner, but that generally means playing at nickel or being a lower ceiling guy outside. 

 

I think Hayward is like the high end projection for McDuffie. He was a round 2 pick. My question marks are whether he really represents 1st round value?

 

Gunner I'm probably going to bombard you with questions in the next couple days leading up to the draft.  I don't hide the fact that I really don't watch ANY college football, but I'll say that I feel a bit more educated about this year's draft than any other year.  I've been spending a lot of my time as I wash dishes or do work around the house or get ready in the morning or driving to work listening to podcasts from the likes of Joe Marino, Dane Brugler, Daniel Jeremiah/Bucky Brooks, Bruce Nolan, etc.

 

Everyone seems to share the concerns about arm length for McDuffie.  Yet, everyone also seems to believe he's one of the top 20 players in this draft with a true 1st round grade.

 

So... let me ask you this since you watch these prospects:

 

Is McDuffie's film truly just that good?  Is the only real concern about him his arm length?

 

That's an honest question and I'm genuinely curious about your answer.  My feelings are that if his game tape is truly just that good and for everything else he tested well (isn't 4.44 fast enough for a CB?) and the only concern is his arm length... aren't the chances pretty decent he'll be a good starting CB if he can make up for those few inches in arm length if he has more fluid hips and better instincts and can be right in the hip pocket of the guy he's covering at all times?

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Mark McMillian? 
 

The issue might be looking at outside draft prospects only. Generally speaking wingspan matters, especially when dealing with a lot of the longer receivers in the league. There are certainly some quality players at the 30”-30&1/2” though…. Especially if we include slot corners. 

 

 

Mcgee, one of my favs.  
 

McDuffie could be the best slot corner in the league, but I wouldn’t want to draft him in the first round.  In general, you need 30+ inch arms to be a good corner in the nfl.  2 good corners out of thousands doesn’t prove that theory wrong.  Those are anomalies when it’s 2 out of thousands. 

[XXXtraAnchovies]

5 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I stopped reading the second you said that..

8 seconds look how high the dude jumped.  He jumped so high his legs from his knee to feet went horizontal with the field. for ONE SECOND... dont try and tell me Vertical leap does not make up for arm length.. 

 

 

HORRIBLE Narrative This is a ball that was about to hit a player on time right place at the players helmet and he jumped up and stole it... 

 

ever hear of the 50/50 ball? 

vertical leap doesn't make up for issues with disengaging from blockers and getting boxed out on back shoulder throws

[GunnerBill]

48 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Gunner I'm probably going to bombard you with questions in the next couple days leading up to the draft.  I don't hide the fact that I really don't watch ANY college football, but I'll say that I feel a bit more educated about this year's draft than any other year.  I've been spending a lot of my time as I wash dishes or do work around the house or get ready in the morning or driving to work listening to podcasts from the likes of Joe Marino, Dane Brugler, Daniel Jeremiah/Bucky Brooks, Bruce Nolan, etc.

 

Everyone seems to share the concerns about arm length for McDuffie.  Yet, everyone also seems to believe he's one of the top 20 players in this draft with a true 1st round grade.

 

So... let me ask you this since you watch these prospects:

 

Is McDuffie's film truly just that good?  Is the only real concern about him his arm length?

 

That's an honest question and I'm genuinely curious about your answer.  My feelings are that if his game tape is truly just that good and for everything else he tested well (isn't 4.44 fast enough for a CB?) and the only concern is his arm length... aren't the chances pretty decent he'll be a good starting CB if he can make up for those few inches in arm length if he has more fluid hips and better instincts and can be right in the hip pocket of the guy he's covering at all times?

 

I think technique sometimes lets him down too but that is fixable because it is caused at times by him playing too fast. 

 

The chances that he is "pretty decent" are high. The chances he is "very good" on thr outside are low. That is the question for me. 

[Big Turk]

T-Rex? The WRs ran backwards from him to get away

[BillsFanForever19]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

Here I go again…..making completely valid points…..MY BAD. 

 

"Here we go again" as in you, specifically, beating a dead horse. Pretty sure this isn't the first or even the second post I've had this same conversation with you in.

 

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

Sounds like we should take Mcduffie….if we want to be stubborn idiots.

 

"Stubborn" would be to completely disqualify a player's potential and disregard everything in a scouting report for one thing. I can understand having concerns about his measurements. I'm not disqualifying it. But I cannot understand completely dismissing a players potential and every other trait a player provides because of one thing.

 

His NFL.com scouting report reads:

 

Quote

Three-year starter whose average size is overshadowed by skillful ruggedness, allowing him to contest throws from a variety of coverages. He's an elite competitor with a route-hugging mentality fueled by body control, foot agility, aggression and burst. He's a pesky press-man defender with the tools to excel in zone. He's willing to fly downhill and hit anybody near the football. He keeps his eyes on the prize and has an itchy, twitchy trigger to close throwing windows and make plays on the ball. He lacks lockdown traits but has lockdown talent and his competitive energy is contagious. He can play outside or from the slot and carries a very high floor with the potential to become one of the league's top corners at some point during his first contract.

 

In 2018, the scuttlebutt on this board was we couldn't possibly draft Josh Allen because a QB has never drastically improved accuracy from College to the Pros. This is more often than not true, but Josh proved an outlier.

 

In 2019, many said we wouldn't draft Ed Oliver because we require certain measurements from our Defensive Lineman and he was just too small. But he had other traits that made up for them, so we pulled the trigger. McDuffie could be the same situation. 

 

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

 History shows that…..Trent McDuffie is the only good short armed cb in history.   He must truly be a superstar. 

 

Holy exaggeration, Batman. Your point is that he can't do it because there isn't a player who has. My point was that if you're going to use lack of success of others as to whether or not he personally would or wouldn't be a 1st Round bust, then you need to compare him to others who were considered 1st Round talents, not just players who share the same measurements.

 

It's not fair to compare him to guys who were considered late round or UDFA talents and say that he can't do it because they didn't, when they were never expected to be stars or succeed like him in the first place because of their lack of on field talent.

 

I would respect this argument of absolute certainty you have a little more if you could provide a list of 1st Round talents that definitively failed to perform up to the expectations McDuffie has. The fact is, there isn't a real comparison in recent history. This doesn't make your case. It just proves that McDuffie is an outlier.

 

Ultimately, this argument will probably serve moot. Because despite your concerns, McDuffie is a player who isn't even on the board at 25 in virtually all mock drafts.

 

Brandon Beane has met with Trent McDuffie, as well as Roger McCreary, who *gasp* has even shorter arms. He was at Washington's Pro Day. He's scouted him thoroughly. I doubt he'd bother if he was off our board. If he selects him and has faith in him, I would too. Again, only time will tell if the league is as concerned about his measurements as you are and whether or not he will succeed.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[BigAl2526]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

Elam can’t tackle.  Boo him @ 25.  

A long time ago the same was said about another cornerback, Dion Sanders.  Elam has some elite traits.  He would not be my first choice in the draft, but Elam's shortcomings are in areas that I think are coachable, and I have a lot of respect for Buffalo's coaching staff.  I also think Tre White could be a pretty good mentor for him.

[The Dean]

8 hours ago, billykay said:

How is arm length measured ? Is there a margin for error ? Can a 30 1/8 really be a 30" ?

 

 

Is that measured from the base? 

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

Yeah its funny. Elam has a ton of flaws in his game and he seems soft in some ways. McDuffie has all kinds of great measurable and intangibles and his knowledge and execution of zone concepts is excellent. He is also stronger and more explosive. 
 

Elams arms 30 7/8ths

 

 

McDuffie 29.75

 

 

When all those boxes are checked, really is an inch going to be a dealbreaker?

 

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

Just now, MrEpsYtown said:

When all those boxes are checked, really is an inch going to be a dealbreaker?

 

Exactly my point. One negative trait doesn't discount everything. It's fair to have a concern about a prospects measurements. But it's unfair to discount 3 years of high level production and everything else on a scouting report for one thing. Doubly unfair to compare him to players that entered the league with a fraction of his expectations to begin with.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

"Here we go again" as in you, specifically, beating a dead horse. Pretty sure this isn't the first or even the second post I've had this same conversation with you in.

 

 

"Stubborn" would be to completely disqualify a player's potential and disregard everything in a scouting report for one thing. I can understand having concerns about his measurements. I'm not disqualifying it. But I cannot understand completely dismissing a players potential and every other trait a player provides because of one thing.

 

His NFL.com scouting report reads:

 

 

In 2018, the scuttlebutt on this board was we couldn't possibly draft Josh Allen because a QB has never drastically improved accuracy from College to the Pros. This is more often than not true, but Josh proved an outlier.

 

In 2019, many said we wouldn't draft Ed Oliver because we require certain measurements from our Defensive Lineman and he was just too small. But he had other traits that made up for them, so we pulled the trigger. McDuffie could be the same situation. 

 

 

Holy exaggeration, Batman. Your point is that he can't do it because there isn't a player who has. My point was that if you're going to use lack of success of others as to whether or not he personally would or wouldn't be a 1st Round bust, then you need to compare him to others who were considered 1st Round talents, not just players who share the same measurements.

 

It's not fair to compare him to guys who were considered late round or UDFA talents and say that he can't do it because they didn't, when they were never expected to be stars or succeed like him in the first place because of their lack of on field talent.

 

I would respect this argument of absolute certainty you have a little more if you could provide a list of 1st Round talents that definitively failed to perform up to the expectations McDuffie has. The fact is, there isn't a real comparison in recent history. This doesn't make your case. It just proves that McDuffie is an outlier.

 

Ultimately, this argument will probably serve moot. Because despite your concerns, McDuffie is a player who isn't even on the board at 25 in virtually all mock drafts.

 

Brandon Beane has met with Trent McDuffie, as well as Roger McCreary, who *gasp* has even shorter arms. He was at Washington's Pro Day. He's scouted him thoroughly. I doubt he'd bother if he was off our board. If he selects him and has faith in him, I would too. Again, only time will tell if the league is as concerned about his measurements as you are and whether or not he will succeed.

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. You can make up as many analogies as you like. It won’t change the fact that there’s only been 2 very good outside corners in the last 34 years.  I don’t have to prove how many short armed corners there have been.  There’s been enough to know that the 2 out of 34 years is an anomaly.  
 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie or mccreary wont be good. It means that they’ll be better off inside and will likely be great slot corners. But we’ll see 

[NewEra]

52 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

A long time ago the same was said about another cornerback, Dion Sanders.  Elam has some elite traits.  He would not be my first choice in the draft, but Elam's shortcomings are in areas that I think are coachable, and I have a lot of respect for Buffalo's coaching staff.  I also think Tre White could be a pretty good mentor for him.

Once upon a time Deion sanders. 
 

oh man. 
 

I get it. I like his traits too.  He’s being compared to CJ henderson….who was supposedly his mentor. Soft as ****

 

I agree, our coaching staff can coach anyone up.  I just think tackling is a mentality.  Deion couldn’t tackle….and he never got better at it. Elam can’t cover like Deion. He never will be able to. 
 

Nice 2nd rd value with hopes he can change his mentality, but i think he’s a huge reach @ 25.  

[Motorin']

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. You can make up as many analogies as you like. It won’t change the fact that there’s only been 2 very good outside corners in the last 34 years.  I don’t have to prove how many short armed corners there have been.  There’s been enough to know that the 2 out of 34 years is an anomaly.  
 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie or mccreary wont be good. It means that they’ll be better off inside and will likely be great slot corners. But we’ll see 

 

You're confident your deep research algorithm has proved your hypothesis? 

 

Unrelated question, were you a Josh Rosen is the right Josh guy?

[Buffalo Junction]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Mcgee, one of my favs.  
 

McDuffie could be the best slot corner in the league, but I wouldn’t want to draft him in the first round.  In general, you need 30+ inch arms to be a good corner in the nfl.  2 good corners out of thousands doesn’t prove that theory wrong.  Those are anomalies when it’s 2 out of thousands. 

Definitely anomalies. I have to wonder about changes in the league though….
 

We’re starting to see some of these slot receivers and flankers become primary targets in offenses. There may be a place (particularly in man schemes) for smaller highly athletic corners that can track and mirror some of these track star receivers.

 

I don’t think we’re there yet, but more of the 5’8-6’ WRs with slighter frames are being used in motion. How defenses counter that personnel shift is going to be interesting. At the end of the day I’d rather not see McBeane take the risk of drafting atypical corners to combat that….. unless it works lol.  

[Big Blitz]

Shouldn't his or any other CB's lack of length weeded him out by now?  

 

Or does he continue to defy conventional wisdom in the pros because of elite athleticism, feet, anticipation, IQ, and ability to tackle?  

 

I get it your concerns are valid New Era and you put in research to back it up.  I'm as big on measurable traits and wing span or hand size as anyone.  But eventually production and other intangibles you bring can trump potential concerns with them.  At some point you have to say "it doesn't matter this kid can flat out play."    

 

Right, per the data, most successful corners have certain length.  But what happens when you're in a small sample size like Trent - meaning maybe most his size don't get this far so comparing him to others in his position isn't fair because not many get as far as he has (potential top 3 CB in the draft) - and if they do they must be doing a lot of other things extremely well.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

You're confident your deep research algorithm has proved your hypothesis? 

 

Unrelated question, were you a Josh Rosen is the right Josh guy?

No….I’m confidant that those numbers aren’t just random.  
 

You say this as of being right or wrong on a player has anything to do with anything.

 

I’ve been on record for 4 years as a rosen guy.  I thought he had a better chance of not sucking.  Our QB development had been terrible for 20 years and 17 needed a lot of it.  I didn’t have confidence in that changing.  Thankfully, I move never been more wrong.  

 

 

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

No….I’m confidant that those numbers aren’t just random.  
 

You say this as of being right or wrong on a player has anything to do with anything.

 

I’ve been on record for 4 years as a rosen guy.  I thought he had a better chance of not sucking.  Our QB development had been terrible for 20 years and 17 needed a lot of it.  I didn’t have confidence in that changing.  Thankfully, I move never been more wrong.  

 

 

 

I'm just saying I can't find a database that aggregates arm length and player performance. Going by how many names guys on a message board can name isn't how math works... And even if only 2 players with arms less than 30" at outside cb have been good, it has nothing to do with McDuffie's career prospects. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

I'm just saying I can't find a database that aggregates arm length and player performance. Going by how many names guys on a message board can name isn't how math works... And even if only 2 players with arms less than 30" at outside cb have been good, it has nothing to do with McDuffie's career prospects. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

I’m not trying to convince you of anything.  i could care less what you think.  
 

I started the thread to educate myself.  I wanted to know how many good short armed boundary CBs have existed.  I never correlated arm length with cb success before now.  I’ve seen it mentioned a bunch during this pre draft process and started to look into it.  So far, we have 2 names in the last 34 years.   
 

Feel free to use that information in any way that you’d like.  

[badassgixxer05]

How are is arms so tiny? Maybe hes still growing?

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Every argument has a counter argument when you’re talking about hypotheticals.  You know what doesn’t have a counter argument?  That short arm outside corners don’t fair very well in the nfl.  That is a fact. 

 

The only "fact" you've proven is that outside CB's way more often than not have longer arms. There isn't any real data of late on how a prospect the calibur of McDuffie performed at the next level. Comparing 5th and 3rd round picks who came into the league just last season is not a fair comparison.

 

35 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I started the thread to educate myself.  I wanted to know how many good short armed boundary CBs have existed.  I never correlated arm length with cb success before now. I’ve seen it mentioned a bunch during this pre draft process and started to look into it.  So far, we have 2 names in the last 34 years.   

 

That's because it's not as simple to find as you've made it seem. You can search combine measurements year by year, but there's no database you can look at of Cornerbacks throughout history that have arms under 30". 

Edited April 27, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[The Dean]

You looking for this? 

 

Or this?

 

[longtimebillsfan]

Jack Butler.  He played for the Steelers 1951 - 1959.

 

Next.

[Shake_My_Head]

13 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Correlation does not imply causation.

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

[BillsFanForever19]

6 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level. There are quite a few Undrafted Free Agents on that list.

Edited April 27, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[Motorin']

2 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Well, I'd say 35 years of combine measurables supports the hypothisis pretty strongly. 

 

Since 1987, only 130 of the 1,214 CBs measured at the combine (11%) have had arms 29.75" or less.    Over the past ten years, only 52 of 537 (less than 10%) have had those arm measurables.  Here's the list:

 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

 

 

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level.

 

Stop bringing reality to the table!

 

I have a hypothesis to test: there's a strong correlation between posters who care that Trent McDuffie's arms are .25" under 30" and posters who thought Rosen was the right Josh. 

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

The only "fact" you've proven is that outside CB's way more often than not have longer arms. There isn't any real data of late on how a prospect the calibur of McDuffie performed at the next level. Comparing 5th and 3rd round picks who came into the league just last season is not a fair comparison.

 

 

That's because it's not as simple to find as you've made it seem. You can search combine measurements year by year, but there's no database you can look at of Cornerbacks throughout history that have arms under 30". 

We’re comparing EVERY cornerback prospect that ever attended the nfl combine.  Ever. That’s 34 years worth of cb prospects. 2 good outside corners with arms under 30 inches.  
 

https://nflcombineresults.com/nflcombinedata_expanded.php?year=all&pos=CB&college=

 

that doesn’t mean McDuffie won’t be good. I never said that was the case.  It means that, throughout the history of the combine, it’s unlikely that that a cb with his length arms will excel on the boundary.  Period.  That’s all it means.  You can disagree all you like.  
 

i could care less if you disagree or not….  This is data.  You can claim that it’s insignificant if you want.  Fine by me.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

But of that list, how many were 1st Round talents comparable to Trent McDuffie? Zero. It's not fair to compare what he's put on film and his scouting report against guys who were not at his level. There are quite a few Undrafted Free Agents on that list.

That has nothing to do with the data man…. Wake up.  Stop trying to prove a point and wake up.  
 

we aren’t JUST talking about a McDuffie.  That’s not what the thread is about. It’s just a numbers game.  And the numbers show that the likelihood of a short armed cb excelling on the boundary is unlikely.  THAT IS ALL.  Stop moving the goal posts. 

7 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

 

 

 

Stop bringing reality to the table!

 

I have a hypothesis to test: there's a strong correlation between posters who care that Trent McDuffie's arms are .25" under 30" and posters who thought Rosen was the right Josh. 

You’re acting like this thread is 💯 about McDuffie.  If I presented it that way, then my bad.  I apologize.  That wasn’t the purpose.  I’ll retract it from the OP so I don’t confuse anyone else

Edited April 27, 2022 by NewEra

[purple haze]

21 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

@NewEraThe closest I could find would be Antoine Winfield 30 1/8 

 

Mcduffie is 29 3/4 

 

So that is like 3/8 off 

 

Not a lot of people honestly... 

 

But his almost 40 inch vertical could also make up some room

McDuffie is going to be good.  He’s a football player.  I can see Beane/McD liking him a whole lot.   

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

Shouldn't his or any other CB's lack of length weeded him out by now?  

 

Or does he continue to defy conventional wisdom in the pros because of elite athleticism, feet, anticipation, IQ, and ability to tackle?  

 

I get it your concerns are valid New Era and you put in research to back it up.  I'm as big on measurable traits and wing span or hand size as anyone.  But eventually production and other intangibles you bring can trump potential concerns with them.  At some point you have to say "it doesn't matter this kid can flat out play."    

 

Right, per the data, most successful corners have certain length.  But what happens when you're in a small sample size like Trent - meaning maybe most his size don't get this far so comparing him to others in his position isn't fair because not many get as far as he has (potential top 3 CB in the draft) - and if they do they must be doing a lot of other things extremely well.

 

You make a great counterpoint here, in that comparing this particular highly-rated, short-armed COLLEGE/DRAFT cornerback prospect to other short-armed PROFESSIONAL NFL cornerbacks doesn't consider amateur context/pedigree, which allows for further consideration of McDuffie's unhandicapped ability. 

 

This limited trait of his might reasonably damage his draft value, however. Right or wrong. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Richard Noggin

[Shake_My_Head]

28 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Your claim is that being in the 11th percentile for arm length is predicative of future success of a specifc player? 

I'm not claiming anything.  I'm just showing comparables.   The list is comprised of CBs invited to the combine, so not just walk-ons or fringe guys.

 

Just 11% of over 1,200 CB prospects invited to the combine since 1987 is quite a bit of support for arm length being problematic.   Here's the complete list of 130, if you want to pull out some successful names.

 

2004-22:

Edited April 27, 2022 by Shake_My_Head

[Motorin']

10 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

I'm not claiming anything.  I'm just showing comparables.   The list is comprised of CBs invited to the combine, so not just walk-ons or fringe guys.

 

Just 11% of over 1,200 CB prospects invited to the combine since 1987 is quite a bit of support for arm length being problematic.   Here's the complete list of 130, if you want to pull out some successful names.

 

2004-22:

 

Were you a Rosen is the right Josh guy too? 

 

[Shake_My_Head]

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Were you a Rosen is the right Josh guy too? 

 

Deflecting much?   

 

Where are the first round CBs in that list of 130?    Winfield jumps out, but I don't see much else.

 

I'm actually a big fan of McDuffie, BTW.  I love his intangibles and he may be the reincarnation of Antoine Winfield Sr.   But as a boundry CB in today's pass-happy NFL, that's a pretty big leap of faith.   

 

Better that McDuffie play over the slot than outside.    But then, why would you spend a top-25 pick on a slot CB?   Doesn't seem to be a good use of draft capital.

[Motorin']

28 minutes ago, Shake_My_Head said:

Deflecting much?   

 

Where are the first round CBs in that list of 130?    Winfield jumps out, but I don't see much else.

 

I'm actually a big fan of McDuffie, BTW.  I love his intangibles and he may be the reincarnation of Antoine Winfield Sr.   But as a boundry CB in today's pass-happy NFL, that's a pretty big leap of faith.   

 

Better that McDuffie play over the slot than outside.    But then, why would you spend a top-25 pick on a slot CB?   Doesn't seem to be a good use of draft capital.

 

Chosen Rosen Math 

[Shake_My_Head]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Chosen Rosen Math 

And away you go...