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Buffalo Bills are reportedly interested in DE Chandler Jones

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Thurman#1 Hall of Famer

Thurman#1

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On 3/13/2022 at 2:11 AM, JayBaller10 said:

Here you go with your “hate, hate, hate” nonsense again. As I’ve told you before, I don’t hate the player, never called him trash or said he sucked, but if an opinion doesn’t align with your “logic” it’s described as “hate.” I responded to Yatta above as for why I referenced Edmunds in the Chandler Jones thread. Sure I could’ve left it with an ambiguous “do everything up to and including trading the player with the large contract other teams may value,” but I put a name on it. Waaah. Waaah. 
 

You must be an older guy, huh? Your memory escapes you. We’ve had this back and forth about Edmunds before, I said he wasn’t an impact defender, you said he was - much in the same way Deion Sanders was an impact defender because teams didn’t throw his way. Do you not remember your own words? You made the laughable comparison. Scary and unbelievable, I know.

 

 

I do barely remember mentioning Deion Sanders. What I said was of course completely different from what you claim. You're pulling the classic "he mentioned Guy B in the same sentence as Guy A and therefore I can claim that he thinks they're the same" move.

 

Folks who have to resort to pretending a guy said something he didn't, are very very sad indeed. And that's what you did here.

 

So, let's review so we can all look and see what a cloddish straw man argument you're making here.

 

You said this:  

On 2/6/2022 at 8:12 AM, JayBaller10 said:

 “Ignoring all the impact plays that don’t happen” is quite possibly the most baseless argument I’ve ever heard one use to defend a player. It’s an argument built on supposition and assumption.

 

I replied with this: 

On 2/7/2022 at 7:14 PM, Thurman#1 said:

 

It's not a baseless argument, so much as it is an argument that's inconvenient for you. It's in fact a completely sensible argument. For instance, Deion Sanders didn't get many INTS anymore late in his career. He wasn't making the splash plays anymore. By your logic that would mean he sucked. In fact, it meant nobody was throwing near him much. He was incredibly effective precisely because he stopped offensive plays from happening. Players absolutely should get a ton of credit for preventing impact plays that don't happen. It's hard to quantify, but it's still a thing.

 

 

That's the only mention of Sanders in the post. That's the whole paragraph. (Please, anyone reading, this, check me. I'll post the link right here.)

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/238355-bills-2021-rookie-class-ranked-27th-in-league/page/5/

    My post is at 2/7/2022  7:14 PM

 

I don't even mention Edmunds in the same paragraph.

 

 

 

 

And yet you're so utterly desperate here that you throw up one of the all-time dumbest straw man arguments ever, right in the post I'm replying to. In fact, you're so happy with this sad little straw man you referred to it above somewhere as if you'd made some point. But back to the post I'm replying to:

 

 

On 3/13/2022 at 2:11 AM, JayBaller10 said:

 I said he wasn’t an impact defender, you said he was - much in the same way Deion Sanders was an impact defender because teams didn’t throw his way. Do you not remember your own words? You made the laughable comparison. Scary and unbelievable, I know.

 

 

See what he did there, folks? I did not compare them. He did. That comes out of whole cloth, directly from his own mind.

 

I did use Sanders as an example of a guy doing something he said never happened. His argument there is nuclear-level dumb, and I pointed it out with reference to Deion as one example of a common phenomena. Never mentioned him together with Edmunds, though. Never compared them. That's entirely out of his own fecund mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Brand J
Brand J

Do whatever you gotta do to fit his contract under the cap, up to and including trading Edmunds’ $12.7M/yr figure.

Milanos Milano
Milanos Milano

Whatever it takes. Make it happen. If we can manage to land Jones and Gronkowski, I will consider this offseason a success. 

Not at the table Karlos
Not at the table Karlos

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MrEpsYtown Veteran

MrEpsYtown

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A couple of interesting nuggets on Jones. So I assumed that a lot of what he was saying in that quote about scheme fit was him posturing to get to a 4-3 team, but looking deeper into things, I am not sure that is it and I may be wrong. His best season was in 2017 as an outside backer in James Bettcher's 3-4 scheme. He had 17 sacks and was runner up for defensive player of the year, as well as a first team all pro. Bruce Arians leaves,and Steve Wilks comes in. One must remember that Wilks runs McDermott's scheme. There are articles stating that Jones had to get "used to putting his hand in the dirt etc." Jones stated that it was easier to play defensive end than playing OLB and he gained a bit of weight for it. The last time he had played defensive end was in New England. Then he had a bit of a down year under Wilks, but to be fair, the whole team was awful. Fast forward a year and Wilks is fired and there are articles about how Jones is happy to return to a 3-4 and play OLB under Vance Joseph and how excited he is to play with Terrell Suggs who Jones believes will keep double teams off of him. My conclusions, based on everything I have read are: 

 

  • He wants to win, but he already has a Super Bowl so that is not his main goal
  • He wants to set the edge and rush the passer. Whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3, he wants to play in a scheme that will allow him to attack. 
  • He wants to play in a place where there are other good pass rushers so that he doesn't have to face double teams. 

 

  • So a couple of things, while I thought this was very real possibility at first, I am starting to think he will only come here if he is truly being pulled to play in his near his hometown. If he comes here and we win a SB he will forever be remembered as a legend in these parts and across the league, as opposed to a great player who got a lot of sacks and had a hall of fame career but didn't really make that impact. Come to Buffalo, help us win a SB, and you are immediately a legend. 
  • His lack of production in Steve Wilks' defense is very worrisome as he may not have positive thoughts from that year. 
  • The guy who "maximized" Chandler Jones is James Bettcher who is coaching in Cincinnati
  • Most of the rest of the coaches from that staff including Bob Sanders OLB coach are in Tampa
  • The defensive line coach from Arizona during that time is Brentson Buckner and he is in Jacksonville
  • Nathaniel Hackett, new Denver coach was the OC when Jones was at the Cuse
  • The Steelers make a ton of sense to play opposite TJ Watt and still be relatively close to home, plus there is the presence of Brian Flores
  • In 2021, The Steelers had the most sacks as a team
  • Patrick Graham was his DL coach in New England. He is now the DC in Vegas. I could see Jones going there and playing opposite Maxx Crosby
  • The Jaguars, Bengals, Raiders, Steelers, and Broncos have cap space
  • Tampa does not have cap space, but I do think that may be his best fit schematically and he could play with Shaq Barrett

 

Again this is a mix of opinion and fact, but the fact that Jones would be the main attraction here on a d line that is in the middle of the pack in terms of sacks gives me pause in terms of the fit. Unless he feels that playing with Oliver and Rousseau will get him one on ones. 

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Solomon Grundy Hall of Famer

Solomon Grundy

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34 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

A couple of interesting nuggets on Jones. So I assumed that a lot of what he was saying in that quote about scheme fit was him posturing to get to a 4-3 team, but looking deeper into things, I am not sure that is it and I may be wrong. His best season was in 2017 as an outside backer in James Bettcher's 3-4 scheme. He had 17 sacks and was runner up for defensive player of the year, as well as a first team all pro. Bruce Arians leaves,and Steve Wilks comes in. One must remember that Wilks runs McDermott's scheme. There are articles stating that Jones had to get "used to putting his hand in the dirt etc." Jones stated that it was easier to play defensive end than playing OLB and he gained a bit of weight for it. The last time he had played defensive end was in New England. Then he had a bit of a down year under Wilks, but to be fair, the whole team was awful. Fast forward a year and Wilks is fired and there are articles about how Jones is happy to return to a 3-4 and play OLB under Vance Joseph and how excited he is to play with Terrell Suggs who Jones believes will keep double teams off of him. My conclusions, based on everything I have read are: 

 

  • He wants to win, but he already has a Super Bowl so that is not his main goal
  • He wants to set the edge and rush the passer. Whether it is a 3-4 or a 4-3, he wants to play in a scheme that will allow him to attack. 
  • He wants to play in a place where there are other good pass rushers so that he doesn't have to face double teams. 

 

  • So a couple of things, while I thought this was very real possibility at first, I am starting to think he will only come here if he is truly being pulled to play in his near his hometown. If he comes here and we win a SB he will forever be remembered as a legend in these parts and across the league, as opposed to a great player who got a lot of sacks and had a hall of fame career but didn't really make that impact. Come to Buffalo, help us win a SB, and you are immediately a legend. 
  • His lack of production in Steve Wilks' defense is very worrisome as he may not have positive thoughts from that year. 
  • The guy who "maximized" Chandler Jones is James Bettcher who is coaching in Cincinnati
  • Most of the rest of the coaches from that staff including Bob Sanders OLB coach are in Tampa
  • The defensive line coach from Arizona during that time is Brentson Buckner and he is in Jacksonville
  • Nathaniel Hackett, new Denver coach was the OC when Jones was at the Cuse
  • The Steelers make a ton of sense to play opposite TJ Watt and still be relatively close to home, plus there is the presence of Brian Flores
  • In 2021, The Steelers had the most sacks as a team
  • Patrick Graham was his DL coach in New England. He is now the DC in Vegas. I could see Jones going there and playing opposite Maxx Crosby
  • The Jaguars, Bengals, Raiders, Steelers, and Broncos have cap space
  • Tampa does not have cap space, but I do think that may be his best fit schematically and he could play with Shaq Barrett

 

Again this is a mix of opinion and fact, but the fact that Jones would be the main attraction here on a d line that is in the middle of the pack in terms of sacks gives me pause in terms of the fit. Unless he feels that playing with Oliver and Rousseau will get him one on ones. 

Easy fix, bring back Jerry Hughes. 

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2020 Our Year For Sure Veteran

2020 Our Year For Sure

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29 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

The Bills are far from the scheme that maximizes an individual player's impact. They take each of their DL players off the field 40-50% of snaps and the DEs have a lot of responsibility in run defense, and the latter being the reason we go for bigger bodies rather than speed edge rushers.

 

If Odell Beckham were a free agent I imagine he would want to go somewhere he could catch 100 balls and re-establish himself as an elite player in the league. That seems to be where Jones is, wanting a 15+ sack season to prove himself. He hasn't had that in 3 years.

 

I agree with you, doesn't seem likely based on these quotes. The Bills' sweet spot are the true ring-chasers, the guys thinking This is my shot at a chip.

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BuffaloRebound Veteran

BuffaloRebound

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2 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

The Bills are far from the scheme that maximizes an individual player's impact. They take each of their DL players off the field 40-50% of snaps and the DEs have a lot of responsibility in run defense, and the latter being the reason we go for bigger bodies rather than speed edge rushers.

 

If Odell Beckham were a free agent I imagine he would want to go somewhere he could catch 100 balls and re-establish himself as an elite player in the league. That seems to be where Jones is, wanting a 15+ sack season to prove himself. He hasn't had that in 3 years.

 

I agree with you, doesn't seem likely based on these quotes. The Bills' sweet spot are the true ring-chasers, the guys thinking This is my shot at a chip.

yep.  Calais Campbell 

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Brand J Veteran

Brand J

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5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I do barely remember mentioning Deion Sanders. What I said was of course completely different from what you claim. You're pulling the classic "he mentioned Guy B in the same sentence as Guy A and therefore I can claim that he thinks they're the same" move.

 

Folks who have to resort to pretending a guy said something he didn't, are very very sad indeed. And that's what you did here.

 

So, let's review so we can all look and see what a cloddish straw man argument you're making here.

 

You said this:  

 

I replied with this: 

 

That's the only mention of Sanders in the post. That's the whole paragraph. (Please, anyone reading, this, check me. I'll post the link right here.)

 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/238355-bills-2021-rookie-class-ranked-27th-in-league/page/5/

    My post is at 2/7/2022  7:14 PM

 

I don't even mention Edmunds in the same paragraph.

 

 

 

 

And yet you're so utterly desperate here that you throw up one of the all-time dumbest straw man arguments ever, right in the post I'm replying to. In fact, you're so happy with this sad little straw man you referred to it above somewhere as if you'd made some point. But back to the post I'm replying to:

 

 

 

 

See what he did there, folks? I did not compare them. He did. That comes out of whole cloth, directly from his own mind.

 

I did use Sanders as an example of a guy doing something he said never happened. His argument there is nuclear-level dumb, and I pointed it out with reference to Deion as one example of a common phenomena. Never mentioned him together with Edmunds, though. Never compared them. That's entirely out of his own fecund mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is so silly it’s hardly worth a response. You used Deion Sanders in your example as a player who makes impact plays on the field that aren’t visible and related that to Edmunds making impact plays that aren’t visible because teams are reluctant to throw in his area. Is that not what you’re doing in comparing Sanders impact to Edmunds? The length you will go to, to justify your rationale and then claim the comparison wasn’t your intention is ridiculous beyond measure. 
 

Ask yourself this… why do you more put on your wrinkly slacks and plastic rent-a-cop badge to patrol these threads? You claim everyone is entitled to an opinion, yet the first post in this thread you commented on had nothing to do with my “that’s just reality” claim. It was an opinion that was liked and supported by others but you swooped in with your “little fella” name calling. You need a bat signal, or better yet, a Tremaine Edmunds signal that entices you to crawl out of hiding whenever you do miss a critique. The effort must be exhausting on your behalf and you derailed this thread to make it about you and I, good job. 
 

Another poster above told me to “give it a rest,” but it’s you who constantly chirps at me, so who truly is the one who should give it a rest? I enjoy arguments, debates, and banter, it’s the reason I haven’t put you on ignore, even if you do go to great lengths to justify things no matter how faulty the logic. It’s annoying, but also humorous. This wasn’t an Edmunds thread until you made it such, despite one thing I said in a single post. Get a life… put that in your fecund mind.

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Einstein's Dog RFA

Einstein's Dog

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I people are reading too much into the comments, C Jones remains a real possibility in my mind.

 

First, the snap count thing.    Yes, Jones may get slightly less percentage of snaps here.  But most of the plays he would be out on are high percentage run plays.  He shouldn't mind.

 

Second, is opportunity.  The Bills have been crushing lesser teams, have one of the highest point differentials.  That is a great place to be for a DE that wants sacks.

 

Third, players talk all the time about factors other than money, but money is generally the key driver.  If Beane opens up the wallet, Jones will come.

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