BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Just now, Evian said: Agreed. Just like if there is a superior black coach or black quarterback they will get a job. This nonsense black coaches and quarterback don't get a shot is ludicrous. Again, no. Like, not at all. What you're saying is the opposite of true and the reason that things like The Rooney Rule exist. 4 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Perhaps but there hasn't been one for 18 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Apke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 habanero level spicy! 1 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco_92 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: So white people make up 88% of the population? Interesting. Black people make up 12% of the population, but the rooney rule applies to persons of color, who make up 37% of the population. So yes, I would agree with the OP because of math. The math is even more galling when you consider the nuance of the racial disparity in a league where 75% of players are minorities and 75% of head coaches are white. I was referring to blacks, not non-whites. There are other non-whites in football, but the crux of most of these debates center on blacks because most NFL personnel are white or black, other minorities don't come up in numbers relative to discussion because even though they comprise (100 - 56 - 12)% of the population, they don't play or coach American football in significant numbers. But anyway, my point was just to poke fun at your "the little baby is whining about something completely insiginficant" attitude when the histrionics necessary to describe a sample size of literally five positions as "embarrassing" are entirely reflective of who actually tends to be obsessive and emotional regarding "racial issues" in general Edited January 31, 2022 by arcane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Again, no. Like, not at all. What you're saying is the opposite of true and the reason that things like The Rooney Rule exist. We have had a SB between teams with black coaches. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak-O Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 You’d think that in a multi billion dollar industry like the NFL the most competent coaches would be hired regardless of skin colour and this rule wouldn’t be needed. I don’t know what would piss me off more, not getting a job because of being a certain colour or being interviewed for a job as a good will token and nothing more. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Round Bust Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 14 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Why is it OK to have a racial disparity in players but not coaches? because the process of player selection (free agency, draft, waiver cuts and picks and the biggest chubby..a..trade) is color-blind; its transparent, its watching college games and wishing the Bills could draft THAT guy, the senior bowl where Beane and company are or will be, the combine, then the mock drafts, the draft itself (a non-football event that every NFL city wishes it coulkd host) and we ultimately expect the best to be selected. we argue need over talent or vice versa and whether or not its wise to draft a guard early or a punter at all....none based on color or the need to cuz Its based on workouts, physcal and mental testing, stats, metrics and analytics, comparison, scouting, hours of tape review, interviews, ranking all and by position and need, and at the end it based on talent and skill and not the color of the players skin which in the end is great thing...and unfortuantely the hiring process for coaches and coordinators cannot say the same I applaud those who try because its hard, they are trying to change things amognst the powerful and rich for the better and when you do that you get unfairly criticzed by those who are ignorant and insecure. Its easy to look to our left and to the right and find fault, try looking up, for those are ones saying look to your left and right.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, teef said: habanero level spicy! We are heading toward the ghost peppers, I’m afraid! 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, Augie said: We are heading toward the ghost peppers, I’m afraid! Bite by tiny bite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, First Round Bust said: s based on workouts, physcal and mental testing, stats, metrics and analytics, comparison, scouting, hours of tape review, interviews, ranking all and by position and need, and at the end it based on talent and skill and not the color of the players skin which in the end is great thing...and unfortuantely the hiring process for coaches and coordinators cannot say the same How do you know its not the same? Can you name a case where a black coach was not hired cuz he was black? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillyG Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Way too many people in this thread that are way too comfortable exposing who they are. 1 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, arcane said: I was referring to blacks, not non-whites. There are other non-whites in football, but the crux of most of these debates center on blacks because most NFL personnel are white or black, other minorities don't come up in numbers relative to discussion because even though they comprise (100 - 56 - 12)% of the population, they don't play or coach American football in significant numbers. But anyway, my point was just to poke fun at your "the little baby is whining about something completely insiginficant" attitude when the histrionics necessary to describe a sample size of literally five positions as "embarrassing" are entirely reflective of who actually tends to be obsessive and emotional regarding "racial issues" in general Robert Saleh & Ron Rivera? You missed a huge detail about the Rooney rule that makes the percentage of people it affects at about 4x your claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 hours ago, billswhip said: This board has some questions on the rule specifics as is pertain to hiring.... The NFL has tinkered with the Rooney Rule several times since the embarrassing hiring cycle following the 2019 regular season when just one of five coaching vacancies was filled by a person of color. In May 2020, the league changed the Rooney Rule to require teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for a head coaching job and at least one external minority candidate for a coordinator job. BUF is required to comply and interview aft least one external minority candidate for any coordinator opening 13% of the population is African American. Why is a hiring rate of 20% embarrassing? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Chaos said: 13% of the population is African American. Why is a hiring rate of 20% embarrassing? Who said anything about african amercians? What's the population of white people and people of color? Edited January 31, 2022 by BullBuchanan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Funny thing is, when I hear a team is interviewing this guy or that guy, I almost never know if he’s white, black, Hispanic or whatever. And I don’t care. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 hours ago, billswhip said: This board has some questions on the rule specifics as is pertain to hiring.... The NFL has tinkered with the Rooney Rule several times since the embarrassing hiring cycle following the 2019 regular season when just one of five coaching vacancies was filled by a person of color. In May 2020, the league changed the Rooney Rule to require teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for a head coaching job and at least one external minority candidate for a coordinator job. BUF is required to comply and interview aft least one external minority candidate for any coordinator opening Requirements were changed this fall https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/10/27/nfl-updates-rooney-rule-hiring-cycle-timeline/ Quote Starting with this hiring cycle, clubs must now interview two external minority candidates for all G.M. and coordinator jobs. That mirrors the requirement for head coach hirings. In addition, teams must conduct at least one in-person interview with a minority candidate for all head coaching and General Manager openings. 2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: Then who else are the Giants interviewing besides Dorsey? Given this expansion of the rule, sure seems like all those reports from Saturday night saying Giants offered a deal to Dorsey and it was as good as done were a little... premature? Not surprising for the Twitterverse, and most of those tweets were from Giants-based folk. Unless they were from Dorsey's agent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 20 minutes ago, Lost said: If the world is all about equity over substance now, shouldn't we have a rule that at least 2 women be interviewed for coaching positions as well then? You should be grateful the world is ‘about equity over substance now’ or dumbass posts like this would never see the light of day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: Who said anything about african amercians? What's the population of white people and people of color? 73% white. 50% women. Zero women, Zero Asians. Zero India Indians. NFL is widely over represented on white and african american men and widely underspresented on every everyone else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 14 minutes ago, Freak-O said: You’d think that in a multi billion dollar industry like the NFL the most competent coaches would be hired regardless of skin colour and this rule wouldn’t be needed. I don’t know what would piss me off more, not getting a job because of being a certain colour or being interviewed for a job as a good will token and nothing more. Every interview is a chance to get a job, and even if you don't get a particular job it helps you next time. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Simon said: If I was in those guys' shoes, I'm not sure I would consider the opportunity to meet and talk to people that I would have never otherwise had as being "used". We used to say there was no such thing as a bad interview opportunity. If nothing else, it's valuable practice, and it gives the guys interviewed but not hired contacts and an opening to reach out and ask about what experience or preparation would make them stronger candidates for the next round. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said: Every interview is a chance to get a job, and even if you don't get a particular job it helps you next time. Right. Like how dumb or privileged do you have to be to see an opportunity to interview for an extremely limited, extremely sought after position as a bad thing? "not getting a job because of being a certain colour" is DEFINITELY the answer for which should piss someone off more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 10 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: Robert Saleh & Ron Rivera? You missed a huge detail about the Rooney rule that makes the percentage of people it affects at about 4x your claim. Do you think either of these guys would NOT have been hired sans Rooney rule? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Victory Formation said: I’m white, but 70% of all NFL players are black. So if I’m an owner, or a GM, or a coach and I wanted to hire somebody with not only coaching experience, but playing experience also, it would make sense to at least interview some people who are black. As far as women coaching? Get out of here. I don’t mean to be chauvinistic about it, but we all know the truth for what it is. I don't know if there will be a glass ceiling, but there are a number of female coaching assistants now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said: My personal feelings is when someone shouts "Rooney Rule interview" it reveals way more about themselves then the teams hiring. Not necessarily and I think it's unfair to suggest that. If you're implying no team in the NFL interviews purely to comply with the rule, you're naive. Have a look at Jon Gruden's emails, and much more importantly, look at the league structure surrounding them (over a long period of time) that did NOTHING about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Suffering Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 40 minutes ago, Evian said: Is there racial disparity in players. African Americans are 13% of population but 70% of players. Isn't that racist. Maybe we should force teams to play more asians, hispanics, and whites on defense because currently defenses are 90% black. The NFL is the ultimate meritocracy (sports usually is). The best players get the jobs and no one cares about skin color. We don't love Josh because he is white or Diggs because he is black. We love Josh because HE IS FREAKING JOSH! BTW, this is great for the country as a whole because fans will identify with the players on their favorite team, regardless of color. And don't you feel the same way about coaches? I do. I can't believe for a moment that McD would pass over a qualified candidate because of skin color. He wants to win. The Rooney Rule is only needed for the odd idiot out there (which I am sure there are some). So, what accounts for the disparity in black coaches? Don't stone me, but I think there really isn't any. People point to the percentage of black players in the league, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Some of the best coaches in the game were not good enough to play in the NFL - Bellichick, McVay, etc. The fact that they weren't good enough athletically gave them only one option if they wanted to stay with the game they love - coaching. Many took unpaid internships right out of college and worked their way up. So, when you compare that guy who has 10 years of coaching experience in their early 30s to the ex-player who had a good 10 year career, the one looks ahead of the other (as far as coaching goes). What gives the non-player the advantage? The very fact that they were not good enough to play at the NFL level, or college level for that matter. I think that reason more than any is why the percentage of coaches actually is more representative of the general population and not the NFL population. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Do you think either of these guys would NOT have been hired sans Rooney rule? Considering that he was the 3rd Latino head coach in history, it certainly didn't hurt him. Robert Saleh is also the 3rd Arab head coach and 1rst Muslim. Edited January 31, 2022 by BullBuchanan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak-O Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: Every interview is a chance to get a job, and even if you don't get a particular job it helps you next time. It’s not though, if the employer is already set on someone else and just interviewing you because they have to. I also doubt such an interview is very good practice for the next time. What I really can’t understand is why anyone wouldn’t hire the best candidate available regardless of colour when billions of dollars are on the line. Edited February 1, 2022 by Freak-O 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I don't know if there will be a glass ceiling, but there are a number of female coaching assistants now. I don’t know. If I’m a player and I’ve caught a thousand balls or tackled someone a thousand times and I’m being told what to do by someone who never played the game, that’s infuriating. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillyG Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: Not necessarily and I think it's unfair to suggest that. If you're implying no team in the NFL interviews purely to comply with the rule, you're naive. Have a look at Jon Gruden's emails, and much more importantly, look at the league structure surrounding them (over a long period of time) that did NOTHING about them. It's odd that from the part you quoted you assumed it was a race thing. It wasn't. Had a lot more to do with those yelling "Rooney Rule" not really being educated or choosing to take the TIME to learn about a candidate before automatically chalking it up to race. However, mostly the uneducated will water things down to the simplest rational that they are comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Dan Darragh said: I assume that Marv Levy's stellar playing career was a significant factor in his hiring. Madden had even more experience playing than Levy didn't he? 4 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: I don’t know. If I’m a player and I’ve caught a thousand balls or tackled someone a thousand times and I’m being told what to do by someone who never played the game, that’s infuriating. Yes I am sure players who played for Madden felt that way but did not express it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, Long Suffering Fan said: The NFL is the ultimate meritocracy (sports usually is). The best players get the jobs and no one cares about skin color. We don't love Josh because he is white or Diggs because he is black. We love Josh because HE IS FREAKING JOSH! BTW, this is great for the country as a whole because fans will identify with the players on their favorite team, regardless of color. And don't you feel the same way about coaches? I do. I can't believe for a moment that McD would pass over a qualified candidate because of skin color. He wants to win. The Rooney Rule is only needed for the odd idiot out there (which I am sure there are some). So, what accounts for the disparity in black coaches? Don't stone me, but I think there really isn't any. People point to the percentage of black players in the league, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Some of the best coaches in the game were not good enough to play in the NFL - Bellichick, McVay, etc. The fact that they weren't good enough athletically gave them only one option if they wanted to stay with the game they love - coaching. Many took unpaid internships right out of college and worked their way up. So, when you compare that guy who has 10 years of coaching experience in their early 30s to the ex-player who had a good 10 year career, the one looks ahead of the other (as far as coaching goes). What gives the non-player the advantage? The very fact that they were not good enough to play at the NFL level, or college level for that matter. I think that reason more than any is why the percentage of coaches actually is more representative of the general population and not the NFL population. So…….”Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach/coach”. That’s what I take out of that, and I’m sure there is some truth to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Just now, BullBuchanan said: Considering that he was the 3rd Latino head coach in history, it certainly didn't hurt him. 2 minutes ago, Long Suffering Fan said: The NFL is the ultimate meritocracy (sports usually is). The best players get the jobs and no one cares about skin color. We don't love Josh because he is white or Diggs because he is black. We love Josh because HE IS FREAKING JOSH! BTW, this is great for the country as a whole because fans will identify with the players on their favorite team, regardless of color. And don't you feel the same way about coaches? I do. I can't believe for a moment that McD would pass over a qualified candidate because of skin color. He wants to win. The Rooney Rule is only needed for the odd idiot out there (which I am sure there are some). So, what accounts for the disparity in black coaches? Don't stone me, but I think there really isn't any. People point to the percentage of black players in the league, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Some of the best coaches in the game were not good enough to play in the NFL - Bellichick, McVay, etc. The fact that they weren't good enough athletically gave them only one option if they wanted to stay with the game they love - coaching. Many took unpaid internships right out of college and worked their way up. So, when you compare that guy who has 10 years of coaching experience in their early 30s to the ex-player who had a good 10 year career, the one looks ahead of the other (as far as coaching goes). What gives the non-player the advantage? The very fact that they were not good enough to play at the NFL level, or college level for that matter. I think that reason more than any is why the percentage of coaches actually is more representative of the general population and not the NFL population. See, that's a gross oversimplification and as a result it takes what would seem to be a common-sense affirmative and turns it into a wrong answer. To understand why, you can't just start at the NFL, you have to go back much further than that. The people who make it to the NFL in player or coaching capacities are a sample of people that made it to previous stages on their journeys. To understand how someone makes it to the next step in their journey you need to understand how they made it to their previous one and what their motivations are. The deeper answer to that question is a much larger conversation on race in America that includes education, culture, economics and more. The NFL is a meritocracy like skiing is a meritocracy. No one will tell the best skier in the country that they can't compete because they're black, but based strictly on opportunity, they're not currently in a position to become a representative part of the population. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Just now, Augie said: So…….”Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach/coach”. That’s what I take out of that, and I’m sure there is some truth to it. Why should players who are A list in skills listen to skill coaches who were lucky to make practice squads? Someone should tell Josh Allen to stop paying Jordan Palmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Yes I am sure players who played for Madden felt that way but did not express i I will crush you in Madden, punk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 Just now, Victory Formation said: I will crush you in Madden, punk. Not a chance. Never even lived in a house with a Madden. I did help craft a job rule that Madden and Pokemon games were not allowed at work even on lunch breaks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: I don’t know. If I’m a player and I’ve caught a thousand balls or tackled someone a thousand times and I’m being told what to do by someone who never played the game, that’s infuriating. Maybe that's why Ben had a beef with Todd Haley? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 20 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: I don’t know. If I’m a player and I’ve caught a thousand balls or tackled someone a thousand times and I’m being told what to do by someone who never played the game, that’s infuriating. Well, let me ask you this - and it's a question I don't know the answer to: How many coaches and coaching assistants at the college and at the pro level today have played the game (beyond a youth league level where there are roughly equivalent opportunities available for women). I know Todd Haley played golf in college 😁 My general impression is that quality recognizes quality, and that if a coach knows their ***** and can help a player to raise their game and help the team to win, they will be recognized as a good coach whether they've played or not. I think it's a barrier to being given the opportunity, but not necessarily a barrier to actually being able to coach. But it comes up right away with women coaching football is mentioned, when I think we don't ask the same question of a male assistant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Freak-O said: It’s not though, if the employer is already set on someone else and just interviewing you because they have to. I also doubt such an interview is very practice for the next time. What I really can’t understand is why anyone wouldn’t hire the best candidate available regardless of colour when billions of dollars are on the line. Because maybe you don't know who the best candidates are if you have a bias to only considering white people. The Rooney Rule increases opportunity. That opportunity extends not only to the coaches being interviewed, but also to people who aspire to be in that position someday. The story of guys like Jerod mayo and Byron Leftwich being handed the reigns to premier roles and young ages speaks to that. When people can see that opportunities exist, it can make them be inspired to go after the same thing. In happens in every indsutry, not just football with people from all sorts of backgrounds. Edited January 31, 2022 by BullBuchanan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 25 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: I don’t know. If I’m a player and I’ve caught a thousand balls or tackled someone a thousand times and I’m being told what to do by someone who never played the game, that’s infuriating. Most coaches haven't played, at least at the highest level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: Then who else are the Giants interviewing besides Dorsey? Given this expansion of the rule, sure seems like all those reports from Saturday night saying Giants offered a deal to Dorsey and it was as good as done were a little... premature? Not surprising for the Twitterverse, and most of those tweets were from Giants-based folk. The NY Giants interviewed Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier along with Brian Flores. https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/news/giants-interview-leslie-frazier-for-head-coaching-vacancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 11 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: The NY Giants interviewed Buffalo Bills DC Leslie Frazier along with Brian Flores. https://www.si.com/nfl/giants/news/giants-interview-leslie-frazier-for-head-coaching-vacancy We're talking about Dorsey and the OC spot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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