Jump to content

Why is Allen's improvement linked to Daboll?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

because he's his coach?

I hear Daboll is on the hot seat.

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for Joshua Allen's success.   Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does v

Allen talks to Daboll more than any coach on the team.  He calls our plays and sets the offensive gameplan.

 

Just because we will probably be okay with him leaving but doesn't mean he didn't play a huge factor in our offense and Allen's development.  To think he doesn't deserve the recognition or accolades is just silly.  Allen came in as a big project and his growth and development has extremely impressive.  As Brian Billick said, it's the biggest growth he's ever seen in a QB.

Edited by Royale with Cheese
  • Awesome! (+1) 1
  • Thank you (+1) 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

Daboll has consistently put Josh in a position to succeed, that is why. Part of his plan from the get go was to throw him to the wolves. Instead of a training wheels offense like Lamar plays in, a crap show like Darnold or a run first offense to protect him like Mayfield. Josh has been operating a VERY complex system since day 1. It wasn’t about cutting corners, it was about getting a raw/inexperienced QB up to speed so he can perform at a high level 10-15 years down the line and not just perform in years 1-2. 
 

In terms of Palmer, you just may not understand how that all works. Yes, Palmer deserves a lot of credit for Josh, but he’s not acting alone. It works this way in every professional sports organization, coaches in the organization give players things they need to address during the season, as well as things they need to address during the off-season. I promise you Daboll highlights everything Josh needs to address from a development standpoint, discusses it with him and then Palmer puts the plan into action. There’s also zero chance that Daboll isn’t having regular conversations about the progress. There are restrictions on what teams can in the off-season, but don’t think he’s not involved. 
 

His game management is not suspect, I don’t even know where that’s coming from? Sure, he’s taken some time to get where he is, but I’ve talked to a lot of high level football coaches and players who love watching Daboll call a game. They say he does an amazing job setting things up for the future, an amazing job scheming guys open, an amazing job taking plays and implementing them, an amazing job listening to his players. Every time you hear about a great play? Why not just watch? Even if JA is audibling in... Daboll is providing that audible and they’re things they’ve worked in together 🤦🏻

  • Like (+1) 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Allen deserves most of the credit for his improvement.  I don't think any QB works harder than him during the offseason.   Dabol does deserve some credit however.  Dabol and Allen work really well together.  They discuss plays, throw out plays, and modify plays together.  Through 3 years the offense has grown a lot because of it.  The Bills franchise as really benefited from consistency.  

  • Like (+1) 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

This is a very strange post.  If Allen weren’t put in a position to succeed you’d be calling for Daboll’s head. Give credit where it’s due, he’s helped bring out the best in Josh Allen.

Edited by Beerball
Speeling mistake
  • Like (+1) 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

I'm confused why Daboll gets so much credit for John Allen's success.

 

Allen has always been an athletic marvel, his biggest issue has always been mechanical inconsistency.  The OC does very little work on a QBs mechanics, that is left up to the QB coach, and in Josh's case, Palmer in the offseason.  To me, it is no coincidence that in the offseason which had tighter rules on working with Bills coaches, Allen took the biggest leap.  Palmer is incredible and Daboll is profiting off of it.  Not to mention Allen's attitude has been nothing short of tremendous.  The kid put in work mentally in the offseason, you see it every drive.  He reads the defense so well now, and from watching Tom vs Time, that is something that is perfected in the offseason.

 

Daboll is pretty good at taking plays from other teams and running them here.  He is very good at listening to his players.  However, I think his game management is suspect and I feel like every time I hear about a great play, it's Allen reading the D and audibling into the play.

 

I don't know maybe I'm wrong, but it just kind of irks me when Daboll is viewed as some genius developer of Allen.

Its a fair question to ask.  But at the end of the day, Allen has had unprecedented improvement from year 1 to year 3.  Someone will get credit for that, that is how this works.  Jordan Palmer gives credit tot he Bills and Josh himself.  There is no one person totally responsible, but there are some key ingredients.  First Josh has the physical and mental tools.  Second Josh has the passion and desire to improve and be great.  He works on it.   Third, consistent and quality coaching.  Daboll is good at taking plays from other teams, I agree.  But he is also good at making adjustments and finding ways to score points against a lot of different defenses.  The Bills were second in points and yards, Daboll deserves some credit. It is easy to play monday morning OC and say we should not have run this play here or whatever.  At the end of the day, not all plays are successful for nay team for a number of reasons.  He has been skillful at making play calls to beat what defenses are doing, he adjusts well.  He largely has no let off the gas this year when the Bills get up, a previous constant complaint for the last 20 years.  He develops game plans based on scheme and matchups that have proven to be very successful.   It sounds like you just dont like the guy for whatever reason.

 

 

Edited by mattynh
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what the OP is saying. 

 

If you read most message boards it seems the consensus seems to be "Look what Daboll did with Allen". He can do it with anyone.  This offense success is a sum of many parts this year though, lots of talent spread over the field and by all accounts from analysts his scheming has been fantastic. Continuity has been huge too. 

 

No doubt he is worthy of a head coaching opportunity like the other hot coordinators.  But I don't think other fans other than us  really know the amount of work Allen himself has put into this.  His choice looks to be the Chargers, it makes to much sense with Herbert as a start. 

 

Will he succeed? I have no idea. I sometimes wonder if he really has a feel for the game at times. He can be frustrating with his play calls. Will he be a coach who wants to call the plays or does he delegate? Does he have the demeanor to lead a whole team and keep them steady handed when things aren't going well. 

 

I think it's likely in 2-3 years we will know if he will  be something special or trending to end up like a Josh McDaniels- some coaches are just better coordinators. That is also why  Leslie Frasier will never be a head coach again. Daboll may be back here if it doesn't work out. 

 

It will be bittersweet though. We are rocking right now and change will be tough.  Mcd needs to find the right guy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Daboll was very suspect years' 1 & 2.  This may have been also due to McD.

 

Way too many times Allen was put in bad situations.  Great plays often could be credited to Allen's athleticism.

 

2018/19 McD's game plan was play between the 20's, don't make mistakes, keep the score close and let the defense win the game 20-17.

 

The fact Allen went so long without throwing for 300 was telling.  

 

You put the Offense in 2nd & 8 or longer with runs & that is what happens.  

 

2018 the receivers were terrible, 2019 a marked improvement, but still holes.

 

I think they babied Allen and that was my continual complaint. 

 

Daboll is good, maybe very good, but Allen is much of the reason (& Palmer). 

  • Like (+1) 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh became who he is because he’s Josh Allen. He alone possesses the drive, determination, discipline, etc., to achieve what he’s achieved. Things that cannot be coached. 
 

But Daboll has helped him figure out WHY defenses do what they do on a down to down basis. Figuring out the WHY makes it easier to take what a defense gives you (and they ALL give you something). And taking what a defense gives you makes it easier to take what you WANT after their adjustment. 
 

Daboll deserves a ton of credit for that. 

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha... yes, people. Folks... same difference. 

 

I dont want to speak for him...but I think his point was that you can find people to say anything, no matter how silly. No reason to propogate it out to the rest of us. Leave it in the shoutbox lol

 

But maybe I read him wrong

Link to post
Share on other sites

Two things can be possible at the same time.  
 

  1. Daboll is doing a fine job as the Bill's Offensive Coordinator
  2. Josh Allen's excellence at QB is independent of who the offensive coordinator is.  

Personally I think both are true. 

 

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Schematically, outside of the occasional head scratching play call or series, Daboll has dialed up a game plan for Josh to be in the right situation for success. He's a very good play caller for the most part who uses a lot of different formations and pre snap motions to give Josh the ability to diagnose a defensive alignment before the ball gets snapped. This is how Daboll, with his creativity, has contributed to Josh's development on the field. He's also the guy who has been continually in Josh's ear for the last 3 years now going over every detail of the game with him. Continuity cannot be downplayed here. It's been huge this early in Josh's career. It's also at the point now where I believe that Josh can be successful if we are forced to make an OC change. This is because of his growth as a QB. The game is slowing down for him and he is understanding what he sees across the LOS on the other side before the ball is snapped. Daboll has a direct link to that. Now the work that Josh puts in during the offseason, where he is out there with Jordan Palmer working on any and every possible flaw he has in his game, you see the results from that as well. Daboll is not the sole reason for Josh's development, but he has had a huge part in it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, H2o said:

Schematically, outside of the occasional head scratching play call or series, Daboll has dialed up a game plan for Josh to be in the right situation for success. He's a very good play caller for the most part who uses a lot of different formations and pre snap motions to give Josh the ability to diagnose a defensive alignment before the ball gets snapped. This is how Daboll, with his creativity, has contributed to Josh's development on the field. He's also the guy who has been continually in Josh's ear for the last 3 years now going over every detail of the game with him. Continuity cannot be downplayed here. It's been huge this early in Josh's career. It's also at the point now where I believe that Josh can be successful if we are forced to make an OC change. This is because of his growth as a QB. The game is slowing down for him and he is understanding what he sees across the LOS on the other side before the ball is snapped. Daboll has a direct link to that. Now the work that Josh puts in during the offseason, where he is out there with Jordan Palmer working on any and every possible flaw he has in his game, you see the results from that as well. Daboll is not the sole reason for Josh's development, but he has had a huge part in it. 

Yes but as I said above, I'm not sure Daboll was that good years' 1 & 2.  

 

The difference however was evident game 1 this year vs. The Jets when a McD coached team finally threw for 300......😜

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yes but as I said above, I'm not sure Daboll was that good years' 1 & 2.  

 

The difference however was evident game 1 this year vs. The Jets when a McD coached team finally threw for 300......😜

 

What about game 1 of 2019 when Daboll called 11 straight passes to open a game? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Daboll trains his brain. He has taught him how to read a defense and find the weakness. Now with Josh being an atheletic marvel, it’s easier to make Daboll look good than if our QB was less of an athlete. Daboll also designed an offense system around Josh that has proven to be successful. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We had folks in the shoutbox yesterday actively hoping he gets hired away. Not "I don't think it matters if he stays or goes we will be fine" but actually hoping he leaves. Bizarre. 

For some folk there is only black or white, there are no shades of grey...

 

 

 

Go Bills!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone that defended Daboll before he was a darling in Buffalo I always praised him for allowing Allen to make mistakes. Daboll gave Allen everything from protection calls to checks. Allen had a full plate. He made some poor decisions but they let him learn from mistakes. Allen is calling all the protections. He's operating like you would expect a top 5 QB to operate at the line pre snap. Credit Daboll and the coaches for allowing Allen that freedom. 

 

With that said the only reason they allowed Allen that freedom is because he could handle it. Allen is the reason for his success. His mental capacity and his offseason work will help him continue to have success. 

  • Awesome! (+1) 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

As someone that defended Daboll before he was a darling in Buffalo I always praised him for allowing Allen to make mistakes. Daboll gave Allen everything from protection calls to checks. Allen had a full plate. He made some poor decisions but they let him learn from mistakes. Allen is calling all the protections. He's operating like you would expect a top 5 QB to operate at the line pre snap. Credit Daboll and the coaches for allowing Allen that freedom. 

 

With that said the only reason they allowed Allen that freedom is because he could handle it. Allen is the reason for his success. His mental capacity and his offseason work will help him continue to have success. 

Excellent point. I remember Y1 he was kind of a deer in the headlights in the sense that it seemed like the kid was having any success he was having based on sheer talent alone. They were working on the mental aspects, but he was succeeding with his physical skills. 
 

Then last year week 1 he came out and just seemed so much more confident in the Jets game. He was taking his time diagnosing plays, changing protection, audibling. He looked like he was in command. He had his ups and downs, but it was an early taste of what we see this year. 
 

All I know is he’s way further ahead than Brett Favre was in terms of understanding defenses... Brett didn’t know what a nickel defense was until after he got to the NFL. 😉

Edited by JGMcD2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...