Week 12 Post Game thread Bills vs Chargers

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Dan]

13 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Can we talk about that for a minute?  How horrible is that, Barkley comes in for one play it’s the one time they don’t even attempt to block Bosa and give him a clean hit on Barkley.   Does the right guard just not like him? lol 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Dan

[BillsShredder83]

Anybody else notice Feliciano was at RG the first series, and moved to LG the next, and at some point he went back to RG. What was that all about?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Oh, that's great.  Bosa got the sack, but Barkley wins the Twitter

 

[RichRiderBills]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I realize this.  That’s why you should stop smoking bad crack.

 

yeah, he’s taken a few bad angles. Just like Pat Mahomes has thrown some bad passes.  Just like jalen Ramsey has gotten beat.  Everyone makes mistakes.  Your crack just amplifies the sensation. Poyer has been very good this year, regardless of what you’ve seen

 

You gotta be kidding me to compare Poyer to Mahomes. Poyer is not even a top 20 Safety. He's not elite....sorry man. I watch the film. 

[JGMcD2]

11 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

You gotta be kidding me to compare Poyer to Mahomes. Poyer is not even a top 20 Safety. He's not elite....sorry man. I watch the film. 

I think he’s just saying that even the elite players make mistakes... so the non-elite guys are definitely going to make mistakes. 
 

Awesome you watch the film (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic... it’s something I think more should do) who are the 20+ safeties above Poyer based on film? 

Edited November 30, 2020 by JGMcD2

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Dan said:

Can we talk about that for a minute?  How horrible is that, Barkley comes in for one play it’s the one time they don’t even attempt to block Bosa and give him a clean hit on Barkley.   Does the left guard just not like him? lol 

 

Morse talked about that post-game.  He said he took responsibility for the fumbled snap and for the sack on Barkley - botched protections

I don't see it up on the Buffalobills.com site or youtube, but it's here starting about 9:45 in

https://www.facebook.com/BuffaloBills/videos/428996384939446

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

You gotta be kidding me to compare Poyer to Mahomes. Poyer is not even a top 20 Safety. He's not elite....sorry man. I watch the film. 

 

I don't think he's comparing a safety to a QB much less Poyer to Mahomes.  

 

I think his point is that even generational talents make mistakes, so good players will also make mistakes.

 

Just curious .....when you watch the film, who are the 19 strong safeties you rank ahead of Poyer? 

 

Make sure you consider responsibilities, we expect stout run defense, QB pressure, as well as pass coverage from Poyer.  I was kind of chuckling to hear a couple of pundits discussing Jamal Adams, saying the Seahawks expect him to do all those things, and that's asking a lot (or words to that effect).

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, stevewin said:

What is he referring to when he says "First one"?

 

It sounds as though McD is telling the team that post-bye is a new 6 game season and they're now 1-0 with a chance to put their signature on the "new season"

 

Nice victory speech, but I thought McDermott sounded more sincere in his presser when he quipped "if you guys see me fall over, you'll know why" and took his hat off to quip "I came here with a full head of hair" (untrue, I believe, but...)

 

 

 

[RichRiderBills]

32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think he's comparing a safety to a QB much less Poyer to Mahomes.  

 

I think his point is that even generational talents make mistakes, so good players will also make mistakes.

 

Just curious .....when you watch the film, who are the 19 strong safeties you rank ahead of Poyer? 

 

Make sure you consider responsibilities, we expect stout run defense, QB pressure, as well as pass coverage from Poyer.  I was kind of chuckling to hear a couple of pundits discussing Jamal Adams, saying the Seahawks expect him to do all those things, and that's asking a lot (or words to that effect).

 

He is a top 20 SS ...if we want to break it down like that, however the difference in FS and SS have narrowed over the years. Sure, he's got good stats... He struggles bringing down TEs or making tackles at the 2nd level. He's routinly arm tackling and getting dragged for first downs. 

 

Ultimately, I'm not saying Poyer is garbage...my point was the tandem of Hyde/ Poyer has been dissapointing. Damn Poyer's inflated tackle stats. Neither of them pop on film, and they are not playing like the kind of elite guys they could be. Teams dont have to gameplan around these guys for the money they are earning. W / incentives Poyer avgs nearly 10 million per year, another 6 million for Hyde. They just are not playing up to the level they should week in and week out.

 

[Dan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Morse talked about that post-game.  He said he took responsibility for the fumbled snap and for the sack on Barkley - botched protections

I don't see it up on the Buffalobills.com site or youtube, but it's here starting about 9:45 in

https://www.facebook.com/BuffaloBills/videos/428996384939446

Good to know... I wasn’t sure about the bad snap. But figured the missed protection was perhaps on Barkley for not calling the right blitz pickup or something.   Interesting to see Morse take the blame for 2 key missteps. 
 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

He is a top 20 SS ...if we want to break it down like that, however the difference in FS and SS have narrowed over the years. Sure, he's got good stats... He struggles bringing down TEs or making tackles at the 2nd level. He's routinly arm tackling and getting dragged for first downs.

 

The question still remains.  You stated "Poyer is not even a top 20 Safety. He's not elite....sorry man. I watch the film.  "

 

OK, that's what you say you see on film.  Who are the 20 safeties who are better than Poyer?  Shouldn't be a problem to name 'em, right?

 

41 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

Ultimately, I'm not saying Poyer is garbage

 

No, you're saying he's not a top-20 safety.  So it's fair to ask you who are the 20 safeties who are better?  Even if you want to look at strong safeties - who are the strong safeties who are better (though Poyer and Hyde flex those roles, so either question is fair)

 

41 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

...my point was the tandem of Hyde/ Poyer has been dissapointing. Damn Poyer's inflated tackle stats. Neither of them pop on film, and they are not playing like the kind of elite guys they could be. Teams dont have to gameplan around these guys for the money they are earning. W / incentives Poyer avgs nearly 10 million per year, another 6 million for Hyde. They just are not playing up to the level they should week in and week out.

 

OK, your opinion.  Again, begs the question, who are the safety tandems who are better? Who are these elite guys?

[YoloinOhio]

 

[CincyBillsFan]

15 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Finished the game 18/24 which is 75% completion as well.

Morse took responsibility for the fumbled snap as well as for the Barkley sack.  I suppose we'll never know.

 

The play sequence leading to the INT  -  first of all, any plan which winds up with Knox blocking Bosa is a Plan where you Lose your Hat - a Bad Plan.  So much for that 2 yd loss to Moss.

 

I'm not good enough to figure out what's going on from broadcast film, but the protection was clearly AFU.  Singletary is there, Dawkins has a shot at a block, they look like they may interfere with each other.  It looks to me as though Allen's arm got hit as he threw.  I'm sure some of the guys who break down film will sort this.  If the ball went where Diggs was instead of wobbling off to his L, he arguably was open by Allen-to-Diggs standards.  I'm gonna wait to call that an awful decision by Allen.

 

 

 

 

This is a great point.  For some reason a lot of Bills fans, including their beat writers, call every Allen INT a "bad decision".  You know sometimes the DB makes a great play or the D-line gets serious pressure as the QB is releasing the ball or the WR doesn't do what the QB expected.  But in Buffalo none of this matters. Allen's INT's always seem to get described as "bad decisions".

 

What I saw on that play was that Diggs was breaking open.  If Allen had placed the ball higher there's a good chance that Diggs plucks it out of the air for a nice completion.  Instead as Allen is following threw on his throw a defender hit his arm impacting the throw.  That pick may have been a great decision by Allen throwing to a WR that ran a great route but ended up as an INT because of a great play by a D-lineman. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by CincyBillsFan

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

thing is, as good as Allen was playing it wasn’t good enough at the end 
 

against a better team we probably lose that game with 3 turnovers in the 4th quarter and everyone blames Allen for his mistakes 

 

he’s got to play much better than that. He’s far too inconsistent right now 

 

What the hell are you talking about?  We won the game by 10 freaking points?  Is this how it will be with you wrong Joshers?  The first time we don't see Allen light up the stat sheet you're going to say "it wasn't good enough at the end"?  At least wait until we lose to make such a lame point.

 

I really can't wrap my head around this statement Penfield45.

 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

16 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

apparently thats what some posters around here call "playing not to lose" .....

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Anybody else notice Feliciano was at RG the first series, and moved to LG the next, and at some point he went back to RG. What was that all about?

A way to help disguise the run game?

[YoloinOhio]

 

[dakrider]

5 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

The rams are a legit playoff team and will be there. The fins have a top 5 defense and will probably be in the playoffs. Stop dancing around solid points. 
 

the chiefs are much better than everyone. The steelers? Very good team. 10-0 because of the weakest statistical schedule coming into this week. 
 

i love how you bash your own teams schedule to make a point but totally disregard it to prove another point about Pitt. That basically shows your hand. 
 

EDIT: Fins have a top 5 d in points allowed. Not overall. So i should say a good defense, not a top 5 unit though. 

 

 

Except that’s literally the opposite of what happened yesterday. The defense came out and shut down a top ten offense. So maybe let’s wait and see on that assertion. 

I think the Bills are about tied with Saints for 4th best team in NFL right now.  I would put KC, Pitt and GB ahead of them.  But I think Bills could beat Pittsburgh, better match up than KC anyway.  

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

The rams are a legit playoff team and will be there. The fins have a top 5 defense and will probably be in the playoffs. Stop dancing around solid points. 
 

the chiefs are much better than everyone. The steelers? Very good team. 10-0 because of the weakest statistical schedule coming into this week. 
 

i love how you bash your own teams schedule to make a point but totally disregard it to prove another point about Pitt. That basically shows your hand. 
 

EDIT: Fins have a top 5 d in points allowed. Not overall. So i should say a good defense, not a top 5 unit though. 

 

 

Except that’s literally the opposite of what happened yesterday. The defense came out and shut down a top ten offense. So maybe let’s wait and see on that assertion. 

Following your previous posts logic it's funny how you choose to minimize the previous 10 games of our defense. Shows your hand. My assertation is based on 11 games. Our defense remains a huge concern going forward. 

[Stank_Nasty]

18 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Following your previous posts logic it's funny how you choose to minimize the previous 10 games of our defense. Shows your hand. My assertation is based on 11 games. Our defense remains a huge concern going forward. 

the defense has worked their way into the top 10 in sacks and to's and is now 18th in points against.... i can deal with the yards given up, as long as those 3 stats keep trending in the right direction. 

[BillsShredder83]

3 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

apparently thats what some posters around here call "playing not to lose" .....

what a heads up play!

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

@Speaker

[YoloinOhio]

 

[YattaOkasan]

13 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

I thought this play was very different. Wasn’t he the flat defender in cover 2 for that pick. There were two receivers on his side and he got depth cause he knew it was 3 rd and long. This looks like cover 3 and he’s got a deep third. Cause of the motion away and then Allen running a crosser he gets to roam. I guess he was free to roam in both picks but very different coverages imo

[newcam2012]

4 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

the defense has worked their way into the top 10 in sacks and to's and is now 18th in points against.... i can deal with the yards given up, as long as those 3 stats keep trending in the right direction. 

Did you just conveniently forget about mentioning our run defense? 18th in points isn't a playoff caliber defense that can stop elite offensive playoff teams. I admire your optimism. Nevertheless, I'm not sold on our defense and it is worrisome as a fan. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

This is a great point.  For some reason a lot of Bills fans, including their beat writers, call every Allen INT a "bad decision".  You know sometimes the DB makes a great play or the D-line gets serious pressure as the QB is releasing the ball or the WR doesn't do what the QB expected.  But in Buffalo none of this matters. Allen's INT's always seem to get described as "bad decisions".

 

What I saw on that play was that Diggs was breaking open.  If Allen had placed the ball higher there's a good chance that Diggs plucks it out of the air for a nice completion.  Instead as Allen is following threw on his throw a defender hit his arm impacting the throw.  That pick may have been a great decision by Allen throwing to a WR that ran a great route but ended up as an INT because of a great play by a D-lineman.

 

Some go further and say that Allen should have realized he didn't have time to let a deep route develop.  But it was max protection - Knox and Motor kept in to block - and the protections were correct to account for the CB Harris.  Williams had him.  He just (as @Simon so colorfully put it) waved a cape at Harris and let him by. 

 

At some point, a QB has to be willing to trust his protections and make his reads and stand in and throw.  He can't throw downfield if he's checking the line.

 

That isn't to say Allen should be beyond criticism for that throw.  The safety was in fact being "nosy" and slanting his coverage towards Diggs.  By the time Diggs beat his guy, Allen had to sense the pressure bearing down on him.  He could have "thrown it away" and "lived to play another down".  I can't call it a great decision.  

 

That said, Allen has stood in and completed similar throws to a similarly bracketed Diggs or Brown, in similar situations where he knew he was about to get hit.  And when he completes them, we all applaud.  Then you don't hear so much then about "poor decisions", it's more "wow, that was a great throw made just as he got hit".  And if you have a QB who never takes shots and just throws it away under pressure, then you have "Checkdown Charlie".

 

I'm also going to be interested to see what some QB-savvier folks say about the throw.  I don't think he was throwing while falling backwards (at least, that's not what I see on film), but he didn't set and step into the throw normally, either.  Seemed he was trying to do that jump-and-twist-his-hips to generate rotational force move he's introduced this season.  Someone here pointed out his L arm wasn't tucked in and raised just under his chin as he has it on "good throws".  He might have overcome the guy hitting his arm with a stronger throwing platform or even just a better rotation, I don't know.

 

That's the careful line Dorsey and Daboll are trying to tread with Josh - how to hone and refine his judgement about when to hold and when to fold, without dousing his competitive fire.  The corrections they may work on with Josh for that throw may very well be corrections to footwork and platform in a "muddy" pocket, not decision making.

[Stank_Nasty]

14 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Did you just conveniently forget about mentioning our run defense? 18th in points isn't a playoff caliber defense that can stop elite offensive playoff teams. I admire your optimism. Nevertheless, I'm not sold on our defense and it is worrisome as a fan. 

 

From Matt Fairburns "10 final thoughts".... and milano comes back soon. so ya, i'm justifiably optimistic moving forward... but by all means. you do you, boo.

 

3. Buffalo’s defense has turned a corner. The Bills aren’t a perfect defensive team and are still susceptible to teams overpowering them with their running game. But the pass defense is back to playing the way it did in 2019 when the Bills had one of the league’s best defenses. In the first six games of the season, the Bills were fifth worst in the NFL, allowing a passer rating of 106.9 to opposing quarterbacks. They also allowed 12 passing touchdowns and had only two interceptions during that run.

In the five games since then, the Bills are fourth best in the NFL, allowing a passer rating of 77.3. During that stretch, the Bills are also third in the league in both passing touchdowns against (4) and interceptions (6). While they had games against the Jets and Patriots in that five-game period, the Bills also had to face Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray and Herbert the last three weeks. If the Bills can continue to limit top-notch passing attacks, they have a chance to make some noise in the playoffs.

4. You want another stat that shows this defense is back to what it was in 2019? The Bills have 17 sacks when blitzing this season. That number is third in the NFL. A year ago, the Bills were third in the NFL with 22 sacks on blitzes. The Bills are also fourth in the NFL in ESPN’s “pass rush win rate.” Regardless of the metric you use, this defense is starting to get after opposing quarterbacks and that’s leading to better results.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Stank_Nasty

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

 

From Matt Fairburns "10 final thoughts".... and milano comes back soon. so ya, i'm justifiably optimistic moving forward... but by all means. you do you, boo.

 

3. Buffalo’s defense has turned a corner. The Bills aren’t a perfect defensive team and are still susceptible to teams overpowering them with their running game. But the pass defense is back to playing the way it did in 2019 when the Bills had one of the league’s best defenses. In the first six games of the season, the Bills were fifth worst in the NFL, allowing a passer rating of 106.9 to opposing quarterbacks. They also allowed 12 passing touchdowns and had only two interceptions during that run.

In the five games since then, the Bills are fourth best in the NFL, allowing a passer rating of 77.3. During that stretch, the Bills are also third in the league in both passing touchdowns against (4) and interceptions (6). While they had games against the Jets and Patriots in that five-game period, the Bills also had to face Russell Wilson, Kyler Murray and Herbert the last three weeks. If the Bills can continue to limit top-notch passing attacks, they have a chance to make some noise in the playoffs.

4. You want another stat that shows this defense is back to what it was in 2019? The Bills have 17 sacks when blitzing this season. That number is third in the NFL. A year ago, the Bills were third in the NFL with 22 sacks on blitzes. The Bills are also fourth in the NFL in ESPN’s “pass rush win rate.” Regardless of the metric you use, this defense is starting to get after opposing quarterbacks and that’s leading to better results.

Well thought out post backed up by stats. I agree the pass rush is improving. Oliver is starting to be more impactful. It's a little concerning that we have to blitz so much to cause pressure. Our front still lacks a quality disruptor. Our major D flaw is the run defense. Missing Star in the middle certainly hurts. Edmunds isn't reliable, perhaps hurts, and misses many gaps. Not sure how we will get better at stopping the run. No doubt teams will exploit this. No defense is without flaws. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I might start another thread on this.

 

Zach Moss Appreciation Post.  I saw this rewatching the game but it needed a video to appreciate.

Shades of FredEx!  BOOM!

 

 

[billsfan89]

Bills led wire to wire and got the two posession lead late. The defense for the most part looked sharp against a decent offense and the offense was just good enough despite Bosa being a hugely disruptive force but still just couldn't get it going consistently.

 

The Bills did play sharp defensively which is a good sign. So not all doom and gloom, the Bills got a big win they needed. Taking on a tough but banged up 49ers team this week, get that win and keep going forward. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Joe B review of the game and grades (Athletic, paywall, trial available)

https://theathletic.com/2235042/2020/12/02/bills-chargers-tremaine-edmunds/?redirected=1

 

- Klein got the publicity but Edmunds was a star

- Jerry Hughes his top graded player

- Says Epenesa and Davis both very promising

- Grades Josh Allen "C", doesn't like how he managed the game

- Although he acknowledges the OL had big-time problems

 

 

 

 

[eball]

My takeaway from last week: the D continues to improve and the offense is now good enough that even an “off” week is 27 pts. There are lots of things in the world to worry about but the state of the Bills is not one of them. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

My angle on how to view the game.

 

Last season in the Playoffs - JJ Watt "had a banner day" (maybe a half a dozen good plays?) and Josh ended up making some dumb "rookie" mistakes and lost the game in OT with the horrendous sack and a loss of 15 yards that put them out of FG range.

 

This season in week 12 - Joey Bosa "had a banner day" against the Bills, yet Josh ended up making more than enough good plays to overcome the bad. 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce