Horse collar tackle in the pocket not a penalty???? And Mike Pereira

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, Simon said:

 

I just don't think it's a particularly dangerous play when the guy getting dragged down is almost stationary.

But in the interests of consistency, yeah it should probably be a penalty everywhere or nowhere.

Not enough injuries in the NFL?

[The Dean]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is it a penalty because it is a dangerous play.

 

Please tell me the announcers made up that comment?   

 

Also thank you Mike Pereira for telling them that final PI call was correct, where again the announcers tried to convince fans it was the wrong call!!!

 

Both were correct calls. Learn the rules.

 

The INT was BS, but it counted, ergo an INT.

 

The other weird call was the Unsportsmanlike Conduct on Josh?  I was nothing that amounted to that. Did he say a fineable word, or suggest the ref's mother has some bizarre sexual practices?

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

2 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

Both were correct calls. Learn the rules.

 

The INT was BS, but it counted, ergo an INT.

 

The other weird call was the Unsportsmanlike Conduct on Josh?  I was nothing that amounted to that. Did he say a fineable word, or suggest the ref's mother has some bizarre sexual practices?

I think Allen should have a ***** with Bradys head on it and throw it at the officials after any bad calls.

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Not enough injuries in the NFL?

 

It typically only results in an injury when a guy gets collared from behind AND the defender lands on his legs.

I just don't like seeing it called when a defender is fighting off a block and lunges out to get a piece of whatever he can and it turns out to be the back of jersey. It's not all that dangerous of a play if you aren't intentionally trying to hurt people like Williams (and eventually others) was when they outlawed it.

It's not a hill I'm willing to die on though.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Maynard said:

So what do you guys think about the PI? I’m arguing with folks that it indeed was and they saying it was BS! 

It was illegal contact instead of PI. Should have been 5 yards and an automatic first. 
 

Which wouldn’t have made ANY difference given where they were in the field.

[Simon]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

It was illegal contact instead of PI. Should have been 5 yards and an automatic first. 
 

 

Yeah if you're going to call it, I'd have called it contact also.

I didn't think the ball was in the air when he disengaged.

[Kmart128]

With all the injuries that happen in a game its hard to believe a dirty dangerous play like that is considered legal. Josh Allen and McDermott needs to talk to NFL about that. That could break someones neck 

[K-9]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Yeah if you're going to call it, I'd have called it contact also.

I didn't think the ball was in the air when he disengaged.

The CB was engaged from the snap of the ball from what I saw; held him the entire route basically. 

[The Dean]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

The CB was engaged from the snap of the ball from what I saw; held him the entire route basically. 

 

 

I think Pereira was right. But that's just saying the call was "defensible".  But given the refs have been told to only call "clear and obvious" fouls, one can question if it should have been called. I considered it consolation  after the awful INT call. 

[Billsfan1972]

Just now, The Dean said:

 

 

I think Pereira was right. But that's just saying the call was "defensible".  But given the refs have been told to only call "clear and obvious" fouls, one can question if it should have been called. I considered it consolation  after the awful INT call. 

You mean the call that changed the entire complexion of the game????😆 

[The Dean]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

You mean the call that changed the entire complexion of the game????😆 

 

I'd say they BOTH had a huge impact.

[K-9]

1 minute ago, The Dean said:

 

 

I think Pereira was right. But that's just saying the call was "defensible".  But given the refs have been told to only call "clear and obvious" fouls, one can question if it should have been called. I considered it consolation  after the awful INT call. 

It was defensive holding the entire route. It was a penalty, but the wrong penalty was called. 

[BuffaloBaumer]

I can't remember ever being this mad about a call after we won the game. There is absolutely no defense 2 reasoning on why that was an interception. It changed the entire game and there is no question about it. Terrible terrible call and borderline Shady doings if I don't say so myself.

[Freddie's Dead]

2 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I had to look this one up, because it makes no sense to me that a defender is allowed to horse collar a QB if they are in the pocket.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/horse-collar/#:~:text=Rule Summary View Official Rule&text=No player shall grab the,who is in the pocket.

 

No player shall grab the inside collar of the back or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, or grab the jersey at the name plate or above, and pull the runner toward the ground. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

 

They got it right. No idea why the rule is written that way

 

Props to @GunnerBill for properly pointing this out in the GDT.  Ridiculous, but it's right there in black and white.

[Alaska Darin]

How about the fact that Donald's initial point of contact was Allen's facemask?  When did hitting the QB in the head become OK?

[Sherlock Holmes]

2 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

I had to look this one up, because it makes no sense to me that a defender is allowed to horse collar a QB if they are in the pocket.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/horse-collar/#:~:text=Rule Summary View Official Rule&text=No player shall grab the,who is in the pocket.

 

No player shall grab the inside collar of the back or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, or grab the jersey at the name plate or above, and pull the runner toward the ground. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

 

They got it right. No idea why the rule is written that way

Should be the same with facemasks then... Josh Allen got hosed

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, Maynard said:

So what do you guys think about the PI? I’m arguing with folks that it indeed was and they saying it was BS! 

Of course they are. They're acting off emotion , that game almost gave me a heart attack lol. That last drive was amazing.

When the All 22 drops, there'll be no debate. Clear pass interference.  Defender panicked in a HUGE moment. 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I can live with it, but it's crazy to me that up into the DPI it looked like the refs would call any little thing on the Bills and give every benefit to the Rams.

 

The DPI was one of those ticky tak calls that drove me crazy in the last twenty years, but that is clearly the direction that the NFL has chosen to go to. I think it should be fixed but until it is we play by those rules.

[Orlando Tim]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yes you can....  But the point is it is a dangerous play....

 

No player shall grab the inside collar of the back or the side of the shoulder pads or jersey, or grab the jersey at the name plate or above, and pull the runner toward the ground. This does not apply to a runner who is in the tackle box or to a quarterback who is in the pocket.

Thanks for posting- I was really upset by that play not being called but they apparently did get it correct 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Of course they are. They're acting off emotion , that game almost gave me a heart attack lol. That last drive was amazing.

When the All 22 drops, there'll be no debate. Clear pass interference.  Defender panicked in a HUGE moment. 

 

The calls on that final drive were correct. Both the facemask against Josh and the PI against the Rams.

[Orlando Tim]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

The CB was engaged from the snap of the ball from what I saw; held him the entire route basically. 

I think a defensive holding would have been more appropriate but something has to be called, as you said he held him the entire route. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

The PI on 4th down was questionable but the INT was absolutely the incorrect call and the unsportsmanlike on Allen was weak.  But all you'll hear all week is the "bad" PI call.  It all evened out.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, buffalobillswin said:

Yeah it's been the rule for a while. But it looked like the defender got his facemask on that play which is a penalty.

Donald clearly grabbed his facemask and held on for a second. That was the non call that JA got flagged (arguing). The refs clearly struggled today. Up until that last play, the Rams got everything. The phantom INT changed the whole game and the announcers agreed. But non of this changes the fact that every player on the defense played terrible today. Poor tackling, poor coverage, no pass rush and no run stop. Sean has some serious work ahead. 

[JerseyBills]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The calls on that final drive were correct. Both the facemask against Josh and the PI against the Rams.

I agree. 

That "pass interference " was straight b.s though and gave them all the momentum 

I'm ecstatic with the win but the defense concerned me in the 2nd half. Just too easy for LA.  But it's hard to win in this league.  I'll take one anyway it comes!

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

That is correct. The Steelers suggested changing the rule, but the rest of the NFL did not agree. So cannot call horse collar on a RB in the tackle box or a QB in the pocket.

 

That was the correct no call.

 

Edit: That was responding to the no horse collar call

Just like the Tuck rule, eventually this one will be changed too for league safety. Just a matter of time.

[Billsfan1972]

15 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

I can live with it, but it's crazy to me that up into the DPI it looked like the refs would call any little thing on the Bills and give every benefit to the Rams.

 

The DPI was one of those ticky tak calls that drove me crazy in the last twenty years, but that is clearly the direction that the NFL has chosen to go to. I think it should be fixed but until it is we play by those rules.

He was held for 10 yards & that is okay?

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was held for 10 yards & that is okay?

I appreciate hard knock defense. I loathe watching a DB run press for 5.1 yards and get flagged when a pass got thrown on the other side of the field. 

 

From the replay I saw, the DB played tight press and didn't just let himself getting run over. I might not like the rule, but it gets enforced on us all the time and is absolutely black letter law.

[BobbyC81]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

I'm fine with it. It's the rule.

 

What I'm not fine with is when they DON'T call the game according to the rules. Like the "INT".

At least that one was close. You see the officials letting that go a lot, but you could totally call it. He was engaged with the WR more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage.

 

The INT was just abysmal officiating.

The fact that they didn’t overturn it after the replay was worse.  Kroft makes a great leaping catch, has full possession. Then when he lands, the DB grabs on and they both maintain possession as they fall to the ground.  Tie up is supposed to go to the offensive player. How is that not a catch?  Of course, if the Bills lost, the league would announce on Tuesday that the call was incorrect and say Sorry.

Is this maybe because the NFL is really losing money by not having full stadiums so they can’t afford to have one-sided games where viewers may turnoff the game? (Sarcasm!)

 

Unfortunately, I’ve been seeing similar things throughout the baseball season and NBA Playoffs.  The replay systems are supposed to get the calls right but they’re not too many times.  In one Oakland A’s game, a ball hit by an Oakland player clearly goes over the fence into the stands, hits a seat and bounces back onto the field.  The umps call it a ground rule double.  It’s reviewed and the broadcast shows multiple replays from different angles in real speed and SloMo and it’s obvious it’s a home run.  The umps finish their long replay review and say it was the right call as a ground rule double.

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is it a penalty because it is a dangerous play.

 

Please tell me the announcers made up that comment?   

 

Also thank you Mike Pereira for telling them that final PI call was correct, where again the announcers tried to convince fans it was the wrong call!!!

Mike seems to be wrong almost every time.

37 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Donald clearly grabbed his facemask and held on for a second. That was the non call that JA got flagged (arguing). The refs clearly struggled today. Up until that last play, the Rams got everything. The phantom INT changed the whole game and the announcers agreed. But non of this changes the fact that every player on the defense played terrible today. Poor tackling, poor coverage, no pass rush and no run stop. Sean has some serious work ahead. 

I won’t say no pass rush.  Goff wasn’t really throwing the ball deep.  His route were all short completions that turned into big gains.  

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The PI on 4th down was questionable but the INT was absolutely the incorrect call and the unsportsmanlike on Allen was weak.  But all you'll hear all week is the "bad" PI call.  It all evened out.

 

How so? The Rams' player didn't even argue.

 

Are we (Bills fans) so used to not getting a call, that when a correct call is made, we call is questionable?🤣  

[apuszczalowski]

48 minutes ago, ColeB said:

The fact that they didn’t overturn it after the replay was worse.  Kroft makes a great leaping catch, has full possession. Then when he lands, the DB grabs on and they both maintain possession as they fall to the ground.  Tie up is supposed to go to the offensive player. How is that not a catch?  Of course, if the Bills lost, the league would announce on Tuesday that the call was incorrect and say Sorry.

Is this maybe because the NFL is really losing money by not having full stadiums so they can’t afford to have one-sided games where viewers may turnoff the game? (Sarcasm!)

 

Unfortunately, I’ve been seeing similar things throughout the baseball season and NBA Playoffs.  The replay systems are supposed to get the calls right but they’re not too many times.  In one Oakland A’s game, a ball hit by an Oakland player clearly goes over the fence into the stands, hits a seat and bounces back onto the field.  The umps call it a ground rule double.  It’s reviewed and the broadcast shows multiple replays from different angles in real speed and SloMo and it’s obvious it’s a home run.  The umps finish their long replay review and say it was the right call as a ground rule double.

I have no idea how it is ruled an INT when Kroft catches the ball in his hands, never looses the ball as he is coming down and the rams player just had to get his hands in and tie up into the receiver as they ended up on the ground. The ball is tucked into the receivers body and never came out. How can that be ruled an INT? Its just another play to add into the long list of 'whats a catch' in the NFL....

18 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How so? The Rams' player didn't even argue.

 

Are we (Bills fans) so used to not getting a call, that when a correct call is made, we call is questionable?🤣  

But I didn't see the Bills receiver put up much of an argument  either.

 

It has more to do with that kind of play happening and not usually getting called, in those situations they usually let it play out and not make that call

[Billsfan1972]

Instead of starting another thread, will mention again after seeing that the PI was the lead topic on Around the Horn and basically two panelists said is was just a terrible call, with Clinton Yates making it sound like the second coming of the non-PI call in the Saints/Rams playoff game, I am amazed how much national attention the call got.  BTW two other panelists tepidly said it was a penalty according to the rules, but probably wasn't catchable (Duh it was a perfect pass to where Davis would have been if not held for 10 yards)....

 

It was PI/Illegal Contact or whatever you want to call it.  The DB held him for 10 yards and the rule is pretty simple.  

 

Also helped that it is who Allen was throwing the ball to.  If he threw it to Diggs, probably no flag.  He threw it where Davis would be if he was not held.  

 

This was a simple call.

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Instead of starting another thread, will mention again after seeing that the PI was the lead topic on Around the Horn and basically two panelists said is was just a terrible call, with Clinton Yates making it sound like the second coming of the non-PI call in the Saints/Rams playoff game, I am amazed how much national attention the call got.  BTW two other panelists tepidly said it was a penalty according to the rules, but probably wasn't catchable (Duh it was a perfect pass to where Davis would have been if not held for 10 yards)....

 

It was PI/Illegal Contact or whatever you want to call it.  The DB held him for 10 yards and the rule is pretty simple.  

 

Also helped that it is who Allen was throwing the ball to.  If he threw it to Diggs, probably no flag.  He threw it where Davis would be if he was not held.  

 

This was a simple call.

 

I completely agree. I saw it right off the snap because I thought Davis was the read (looking back now I'm not sure he was but pre-snap that is where I thought the play was designed to go) so I had my eyes on him from the snap and the defender just starts wrestling him right away. You lose them out of the bottom corner of the tv angle right at the 5 yard point and the defender is still full engaged so I was calling PI as soon as Josh threw it that way because I knew there was no way that the defender could have disengaged quickly enough to not have continued the contact beyond the 5 yard point. Whether it should have been called PI or illegal contact is a fair, but frankly irrelevant, question. It was 100% a penalty though.

[Billsfan1972]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I completely agree. I saw it right off the snap because I thought Davis was the read (looking back now I'm not sure he was but pre-snap that is where I thought the play was designed to go) so I had my eyes on him from the snap and the defender just starts wrestling him right away. You lose them out of the bottom corner of the tv angle right at the 5 yard point and the defender is still full engaged so I was calling PI as soon as Josh threw it that way because I knew there was no way that the defender could have disengaged quickly enough to not have continued the contact beyond the 5 yard point. Whether it should have been called PI or illegal contact is a fair, but frankly irrelevant, question. It was 100% a penalty though.

What is upsetting is that the national media has made a big deal about it, as if it was an egregious call.  It was the correct call.  Heck the defender too knew he was guilty as he put up his hands after the throw was made as if to say he was "not holding".  

 

Also after the play you did not see the team going apoplectic over the call.  Upset yes, but not that they were hosed.  

 

While I don't always agree with Pereira, he is more often right then wrong and was funny that he stated, that after a # of dubious decisions he disagreed with, this one was correct.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Billsfan1972