Josh Allen Running Style Versus Cam Newton

[TroutDog]

I know, I know: another JA thread. This to me, however, was telling. Many here have said that Josh can’t sustain his game while also contributing in the run game. It really boggled my mind as I really felt as though he figured out how to be a running QB in the NFL last year...after the hits in his rookie season. 
 

I feel like this video supports my theory. Thoughts? Flame away if you’d like or, perhaps, admit that this kid (I use the term as a 50 something) is a little (lot?) more than what many have made of him...particularly if he can capitalize on the Diggs trade and become a 63 - 65% passer AND be a safe running QB. 
 

EDIT: Many posters here have stated that Cam is an example (being roughly the same size and having a propensity to run) that Josh will not have a long shelf life. My point is this: the video shows a different kind of runner. I will make the argument that Josh CAN be an effective runner, is improving accuracy and will be a more productive QB than Cam. 
 

GO JOSH AND GO BILLS!!!!! ? ?

Edited April 28, 2020 by TroutDog

[Sherlock Holmes]

Just now, TroutDog said:

I know, I know: another JA thread. This to me, however, was telling. Many here have said that Josh can’t sustain his game while also contributing in the run game. It really boggled my mind as I really felt as though he figured out how to be a running QB in the NLF last year...after the hits in his rookie season. 
 

I feel like this video supports my theory. Thoughts? Flame away if you’d like or, perhaps, admit that this kid (I use the term as a 50 something) is a little (lot?) more than what many have made of him...particularly if he can capitalize on the Diggs trade and become a 63 - 65% passer AND be a safe running QB. 
 

GO JOSH AND GO BILLS!!!!! ? ?

Josh is the best running QB in history...watch.

[TroutDog]

Just now, Sherlock Holmes said:

Josh is the best running QB in history...watch.

I appreciate the enthusiasm, I really do, but I’m not sure if he’s that. All I’m saying is that he can be a serious weapon in the running AND passing game and do so as safely as one can approach either.

 

He’s a gamer AND a hell of an athlete and limiting his use, particularly when he now knows how to run in the NFL, is silly. Make the D and D coordinator guess!!!

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I know, I know: another JA thread. This to me, however, was telling. Many here have said that Josh can’t sustain his game while also contributing in the run game. It really boggled my mind as I really felt as though he figured out how to be a running QB in the NFL last year...after the hits in his rookie season. 
 

I feel like this video supports my theory. Thoughts? Flame away if you’d like or, perhaps, admit that this kid (I use the term as a 50 something) is a little (lot?) more than what many have made of him...particularly if he can capitalize on the Diggs trade and become a 63 - 65% passer AND be a safe running QB. 
 

GO JOSH AND GO BILLS!!!!! ? ?

Where does Cam Newton come into this topic?

[TroutDog]

Just now, FireChans said:

Where does Cam Newton come into this topic?

Good call...I’ll edit my initial post. 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, TroutDog said:

I appreciate the enthusiasm, I really do, but I’m not sure if he’s that. All I’m saying is that he can be a serious weapon in the running AND passing game and do so as safely as one can approach either.

 

He’s a gamer AND a hell of an athlete and limiting his use, particularly when he now knows how to run in the NFL, is silly. Make the D and D coordinator guess!!!

 

I think he was smarter in 2019 than he was in 2018.  He's shown, time and time again, that he works hard at improving areas of improvement.  I expect to see more slides this year, but a certain handful of gutsy ends of runs that make us all hold our collective breath!

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

I think he was smarter in 2019 than he was in 2018.  He's shown, time and time again, that he works hard at improving areas of improvement.  I expect to see more slides this year, but a certain handful of gutsy ends of runs that make us all hold our collective breath!

Sometimes, the team needs to see the QB run over a defender as a spark. Josh Allen for all his faults, is more than willing to provide that spark if necessary, and he rules for that.

[TroutDog]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I think he was smarter in 2019 than he was in 2018.  He's shown, time and time again, that he works hard at improving areas of improvement.  I expect to see more slides this year, but a certain handful of gutsy ends of runs that make us all hold our collective breath!

Yup...never want that will to win to be removed from his game. But if he can make a critical first down or keep the D guessing...USE HIM!

Edited April 28, 2020 by TroutDog

[Gugny]

Just now, TroutDog said:

Yup...never want that will to win to be removed from us game. But if he can make a critical first down or keep the D guessing...USE HIM!

 

Abso-friggin-lutely.

[Sherlock Holmes]

6 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I appreciate the enthusiasm, I really do, but I’m not sure if he’s that. All I’m saying is that he can be a serious weapon in the running AND passing game and do so as safely as one can approach either.

 

He’s a gamer AND a hell of an athlete and limiting his use, particularly when he now knows how to run in the NFL, is silly. Make the D and D coordinator guess!!!

He should end up with most QB rushings TDs and yardage soon enough... Already 1200 yards and 17 TDs in 2 years.......

[Augie]

WOW! This made me miss football even MORE! 

 

Josh needs to run like a smart Russell Wilson, not like.......Cam.  I get it, Cam had at least one great year, but I was never a big fan of his style or his game. You can only do that so long in the NFL. Eventually, you need to become a real NFL QB. Praying Josh can refine his passing, and stay safe on his running. Hard not to LOVE the guy! 

[msw2112]

I agree that you don't want to take away Allen's running game.  That said, save it for broken plays where he can scramble for the 1st down, safely get out of bounds or slide.  I'd also limit designed runs for him to the 4th quarter of close, meaningful games, playoff games, etc.  No designed runs early in games, in blowouts, in games after playoff position has been determined (amazing we can say that about the Bills these days!), etc.  OK - may be an occasional QB sneak on 3rd or 4th and short, but Moss may be able to help in those situations.

[TroutDog]

5 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

He should end up with most QB rushings TDs and yardage soon enough... Already 1200 yards and 17 TDs in 2 years.......

Most of those yards were in year one when he WAS the O. I don’t want that and do not view it as sustainable. The video I attached showed a radically different running QB than year one Josh...that IS sustainable. 

5 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I agree that you don't want to take away Allen's running game.  That said, save it for broken plays where he can scramble for the 1st down, safely get out of bounds or slide.  I'd also limit designed runs for him to the 4th quarter of close, meaningful games, playoff games, etc.  No designed runs early in games, in blowouts, in games after playoff position has been determined (amazing we can say that about the Bills these days!), etc.  OK - may be an occasional QB sneak on 3rd or 4th and short, but Moss may be able to help in those situations.

I would disagree completely (but respect your point of view): I’d want Daboll/Josh to call them whenever they see the right D to call them. He’s the field general and should move forward as such while also recognizing the need to play the entire game...the next first down is not the goal: playing a winning full season is. 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

2019 - Josh Allen

16 Overall Fumbles which ranked him 3rd Overall

while RUSHING he fumbled 5 in 2018 and 7 in 2019.

Cam has had a total of 25 fumbles total in 8 seasons and some change.

 

So if Allen keeps trucking...hold onto to the ball better.  More like Cam does.

 

[TroutDog]

1 minute ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

2019 - Josh Allen

16 Overall Fumbles which ranked him 3rd Overall

while RUSHING he fumbled 5 in 2018 and 7 in 2019.

Cam has had a total of 25 fumbles total in 8 seasons and some change.

 

So if Allen keeps trucking...hold onto to the ball better.  More like Cam does.

 

Really another discussion but I’ll play: Yes, this is yet another thing he needs to work on. I believe he has and will continue to do so. If it remains a problem, then none of this discussion is worthwhile. 
 

What would make it valuable is if we knew about when the fumbles happened: running plays or passing plays? I don’t know. 

[CommonCents]

Just getting the coffee ready for Biscuit he is on his way. Don’t mind me. 

[TroutDog]

2 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Just getting the coffee ready for Biscuit he is on his way. Don’t mind me. 

Huh? Did I forget my crack dosage? ? 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

6 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

Really another discussion but I’ll play: Yes, this is yet another thing he needs to work on. I believe he has and will continue to do so. If it remains a problem, then none of this discussion is worthwhile. 
 

What would make it valuable is if we knew about when the fumbles happened: running plays or passing plays? I don’t know. 

from what I gather he had 16 total Fumbles in 2019.  7 of those were tagged when Allen was deemed to be Rushing.

 

so

 

7 fumbles While running 

9 fumbles while passing 

Edited April 28, 2020 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Simon]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Sometimes, the team needs to see the QB run over a defender as a spark. 

 

No teammate with a functioning cerebral cortex wants to see his QB taking on defenders.

 

That is strictly the territory of histrionic fans.

[TroutDog]

6 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

from what I gather he had 16 total Fumbles in 2019.  7 of those were tagged when Allen was deemed to be Rushing.

 

so

 

7 fumbles While running 

9 fumbles while passing 

Cool...good info: thank you. With that being said, and assuming a marked improvement moving forward, I would continue to argue that his running is still a worthwhile risk. 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

Cool...good info: thank you. With that being said, and assuming a marked improvement moving forward, I would continue to argue that his running is still a worthwhile risk. 

 

Josh works on his weaknesses all offseason according to reports. I expect fewer fumbles, and a better long ball next season......when it starts. Hopefully on time. 

[TroutDog]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

Josh works on his weaknesses all offseason according to reports. I expect fewer fumbles, and a better long ball next season......when it starts. Hopefully on time. 

Agreed. As I posted elsewhere, he had a significant improvement after his rookie season injury and again in his second year. That’s almost a trend. I have no reason to believe it won’t continue and, if it does, let the kid run intelligently. 

[blacklabel]

What cracks me up is how the "analysts" view different running QBs. 

 

Josh Allen takes off for a 15 yard gain, steps out of bounds, no one touches him.

Analyst: Oh boy, there goes Josh Allen. Coaches really don't want him taking those type of risks, he could really harm his team if he takes a hit and has to miss time.

Analyst #2: He's gotta be smarter, Bob. Just a selfish play here. How dare he!

 

Lamar Jackson takes off for a 15 yard gain, gets plastered by JJ Watt, the 17th hit he's taken today.

Same Analyst: Lamar Jackson! Oh my! Is there nothing this kid can't do?!

Analyst #2: Dapgum, Bob, I don't think there is anything he can't do! Hell, he can perform my open-heart surgery if he wants! Blindfolded!

 

Ugh. As I've gotten older I've come to loathe the analysts more and more. Started watching some games on mute last year. I hate the whole thing. I know they have a job to do and they have their little production meetings and they outline their stupid little talking points, etc. But that doesn't make me wanna take their microphones away and throw 'em in the lake any less. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by blacklabel

[Ya Digg?]

I think we all agree that him running is a HUGE weapon.  It seemed that as the season went on he did a much better job of avoiding the big hit.  There were a couple of those runs (and some that weren't on there) where he took some huge hits though, and I remember on a couple of them wondering if he was going to be okay.  I do think he will continue to get better at avoiding the big hit, however that being said it is fun sometimes when he takes on those big defenders and he's the one that ends up winning

[Augie]

One thing that SERIOUSLY annoys me is that Josh is allowed to take low and late hits without a flag that would result in suspension if it happened anywhere near a guy named Brady. 

[FireChans]

27 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

No teammate with a functioning cerebral cortex wants to see his QB taking on defenders.

 

That is strictly the territory of histrionic fans.

I disagree.

[TroutDog]

8 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

What cracks me up is how the "analysts" view different running QBs. 

 

Josh Allen takes off for a 15 yard gain, steps out of bounds, no one touches him.

Analyst: Oh boy, there goes Josh Allen. Coaches really don't want him taking those type of risks, he could really harm his team if he takes a hit and has to miss time.

Analyst #2: He's gotta be smarter, Bob. Just a selfish play here. How dare he!

 

Lamar Jackson takes off for a 15 yard gain, gets plastered by JJ Watt, the 17th hit he's taken today.

Same Analyst: Lamar Jackson! Oh my! Is there nothing this kid can't do?!

Analyst #2: Dapgum, Bob, I don't think there is anything he can't do! Hell, he can perform my open-heart surgery if he wants! Blindfolded!

 

Ugh. As I've gotten older I've come to loathe the analysts more and more. Started watching some games on mute last year. I hate the whole thing. I know they have a job to do and they have their little production meetings and they outline their stupid little talking points, etc. But that doesn't make me wanna take their microphones away and throw 'em in the lake any less. 

I agree with the gist of what you’re saying, it just feels a...little out in left field as compared to what I’m taking about. 
 

I could care less about what national sports media is saying...within reason ? 

[njbuff]

Just look at Cam Newton and Russell Wilson when it comes to QB's who run.

 

Russell Wilson remains one of the best QB's in the NFL at age 32.

 

Cam Newton (a former league MVP I might add) is 31 and his career is hanging on by a thread.

 

Ask yourself why as to what I said above.

 

Wilson doesn't take big shots and Newton did, that is why Newton is shot and Wilson isn't.

 

Allen might think that he is so big and strong that he can take any hit for the rest of pro life, but there is always someone bigger and stronger than you and all it takes is one big shot to ruin a career. Zach Cunningham almost did that in the playoff game.

 

Simply put, Allen needs to be more judicious in his running style to remain on the field like Russell Wilson has and Cam Newton has not.

Edited April 29, 2020 by njbuff

[blacklabel]

Just now, TroutDog said:

I agree with the gist of what you’re saying, it just feels a...little out in left field as compared to what I’m taking about. 
 

I could care less about what national sports media is saying...within reason ? 

 

I was ranting, haha. Perhaps I've been cooped up for too long. On Allen's running, I think the kid knows when to slide or get out of bounds. He's also bigger than a lot of LBs and DBs. He also seems to get a lot of props for being tough. That said, I think he'll probably have some better luck staying healthy than Cam did. I do wonder if he'll suffer the same "no call" treatment Cam had. Watched one game a couple seasons ago and there were at least three clear head to head hits he took and not a flag on any of 'em. Might've been that game where he claims the ref told him he hadn't earned those type of calls yet. 

[njbuff]

Cam Newton is an inch taller (no big deal) and over 20 pounds heavier than Allen and he is almost done at age 31.

 

I am not belittling Allen when it comes to running, he just has to be a little wiser when it comes to taking those BIG shots.

[shane nelson]

I actually give him credit for avoiding big hits by sliding or stepping out bounds (this does not include the dumb slide during the playoff game). The only time he was hurt he was in the pocket.  He keeps driving going and score a ton but clearly still needs to slow down and protect the ball much better to be elite.

 

Cam had a lot more designed physical runs than Josh.  We need to keep it that way

[Chicken Boo]

8 minutes ago, Augie said:

One thing that SERIOUSLY annoys me is that Josh is allowed to take low and late hits without a flag that would result in suspension if it happened anywhere near a guy named Brady. 

 

Welcome to the world of the big and/or  athletic QB.  Newton and Ruthlessraper say hello.

[Fixxxer]

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

1 hour ago, TroutDog said:

Most of those yards were in year one when he WAS the O. I don’t want that and do not view it as sustainable. The video I attached showed a radically different running QB than year one Josh...that IS sustainable. 

I would disagree completely (but respect your point of view): I’d want Daboll/Josh to call them whenever they see the right D to call them. He’s the field general and should move forward as such while also recognizing the need to play the entire game...the next first down is not the goal: playing a winning full season is. 

Bro he had like 100 yards less last year than 1st year and he made up for that in the playoff game! Mark my words Josh Allen is the greatest rushing QB we will ever see, he's exactly what I thought Tebow would be

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Sherlock Holmes

[TroutDog]

6 minutes ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Bro he had like 100 yards less last year than 1st year and he made up for that in the playoff game! Mark my words Josh Allen is the greatest rushing QB we will ever see, he's exactly what I thought Tebow would be

 

 

Ha! Ok, if you want to choose that stat then we’ll work from there. He had a 20% reduction in runs and yardage from year one to year two. That’s a pretty radical reduction! (There’s a ‘Thats what she said’ joke in here somewhere, but I digress).? 

 

If you can extrapolate that out to what you’re projecting, then more power to you!!!
 

For me, I see far more improvement in his passing game coupled with the threat of his running game and his ability to know when to slide. THAT is a modern QB!

[Punching Bag]

20 minutes ago, Fixxxer said:

 

 

Barkley could teach Allen some ball holding skills - he has fumbled once - but Allen could teach Barkley how to catch a TD pass. 

 

 

Games		Rushing								Receiving											Total Yds
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Rush	Yds	TD	1D	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	A/G	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	1D	Lng	R/G	Y/G	Ctch%	Y/Tgt	Touch	Y/Tch	YScm	RRTD	Fmb
Career					28	27	198	1141	17	83	45	5.8	40.8	7.1	1	0	0		0	0	0	0.0	0.0	0.0%		198	5.8	1141	17	22
2018	22	BUF	QB	17	12	11	89	631	8	41	45	7.1	52.6	7.4	1	0	0		0	0	0	0.0	0.0	0.0%	0.0	89	7.1	631	8	8
2019	23	BUF	QB	17	16	16	109	510	9	42	36	4.7	31.9	6.8												109	4.7	510	9	14

Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles						Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Comb	Solo	Ast	TFL	QBHits	Sfty
Career					28	27						0	22	6	-15	0	0.0
2018	22	BUF	QB	17	12	11						0	8	2	-14	0	0.0
2019	23	BUF	QB	17	16	16						0	14	4	-1	0	0.0

 

Games		Rushing									Receiving
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Rush	Yds	1D	YBC	YBC/Att	YAC	YAC/Att	BrkTkl	Att/Br	Tgt	Rec	Yds	1D	YBC	YBC/R	YAC	YAC/R	BrkTkl	Rec/Br	Drop	Drop%
2018*	21	NYG	RB	26	16	16	261	1307	50	571	2.2	736	2.8	30	8.7	121	91	721	30	-47	-0.5	768	8.4	13	7.0	4	3.3
2019	22	NYG	RB	26	13	13	217	1003	45	398	1.8	605	2.8	16	13.6	73	52	438	14	0	0.0	438	8.4	8	6.5	4	5.5

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles						Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Comb	Solo	Ast	TFL	QBHits	Sfty
Career					29	29						0	1	2	0	0	0.0
2019	22	NYG	RB	26	13	13						0	1	2	0	0	0.0

13 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

Ha! Ok, if you want to choose that stat then we’ll work from there. He had a 20% reduction in runs and yardage from year one to year two. That’s a pretty radical reduction! (There’s a ‘Thats what she said’ joke in here somewhere, but I digress).? 

 

If you can extrapolate that out to what you’re projecting, then more power to you!!!
 

For me, I see far more improvement in his passing game coupled with the threat of his running game and his ability to know when to slide. THAT is a modern QB!

 

20% reduction with more games he played in and started.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, TroutDog said:

I know, I know: another JA thread. This to me, however, was telling. Many here have said that Josh can’t sustain his game while also contributing in the run game. It really boggled my mind as I really felt as though he figured out how to be a running QB in the NFL last year...after the hits in his rookie season. 
 

I feel like this video supports my theory. Thoughts? Flame away if you’d like or, perhaps, admit that this kid (I use the term as a 50 something) is a little (lot?) more than what many have made of him...particularly if he can capitalize on the Diggs trade and become a 63 - 65% passer AND be a safe running QB. 
 

EDIT: Many posters here have stated that Cam is an example (being roughly the same size and having a propensity to run) that Josh will not have a long shelf life. My point is this: the video shows a different kind of runner. I will make the argument that Josh CAN be an effective runner, is improving accuracy and will be a more productive QB than Cam. 
 

GO JOSH AND GO BILLS!!!!! ? ?

 

Two things:

 

1.  The amount of joy I had watching this is off the charts.  I just love watching Allen play, I cant remember a player I enjoyed watching and rooting for as much as I do for this kid.  

 

2.  Please please please...while working on the deep ball...also work on holding onto the football better.  He was better down the stretch, but just needs to protect the ball more on runs.  

[Jerome007]

The Panthers often used Cam as a battering ram down the middle. Sure he didn't get injured, but it must have affected his throwing motions and such at times, being crunched at shoulder level. Look at the Josh run video, he takes very little hard hits, and most were when the pocket collapsed on pass plays - better hits than getting decked while looking downfield. I'm not a huge fan of designed runs... but he's had quite the long gains from some of them so I guess it depends ha ha. As when they don't work, he get hits hard as well. Keep him loose! Let him free

[TroutDog]

4 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

I'm not a huge fan of designed runs.

But I am...or at least the threat of them so long as JA knows when to slide. That’s my point. 
 

Cam needs to be the hero (thus the Superman thingy). I believe Josh wants to win and, if the guys around him aren’t enough, then he’ll do all he can to get there. Reaching my conclusion that there are enough guys around him now and the threat of him running is valuable. 

[Billl]

2 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

2019 - Josh Allen

16 Overall Fumbles which ranked him 3rd Overall

while RUSHING he fumbled 5 in 2018 and 7 in 2019.

Cam has had a total of 25 fumbles total in 8 seasons and some change.

 

So if Allen keeps trucking...hold onto to the ball better.  More like Cam does.

 

Just for context, he had 147 combined runs and sacks in 2019.  Essentially, he fumbled once every 9 times he didn’t hand the ball off or throw it.  When you start factoring in the times he didn’t get tackled (9 rushing TDs, several kneel downs, dozens of times running out of bounds, sliding, etc.) it’s got to be closer to 1 in 5 hits that he coughs it up.  He’s been remarkably lucky to lose so few, but if I’m the opposing DC, I want him running the ball.  I tell my guys to force him to the middle of the field if he runs.  Give him a few extra yards, but make him take a hit because he’ll put it on the ground eventually.