Tre White - Best in the League?

[DCOrange]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Then give him 5 years $85 mil.

The point is we should be extending him now. Lock up our best player and send a positive message to the locker room that if you perform you'll get taken care of. 

Start negotiating is what I'm saying. 

I think it’s extremely likely that we’ve already tried to negotiate with him. 

[IgotBILLStopay]

This is a fair question. Now Tre is clearly the best at zone coverage. His ability to shut down one side of the field has been the best since Richard Sherman's best years and Josh Norman's 2015 season. However, to be fully effective, he needs the CB2 to cover the other side of the field.

 

That being said, there are other CBs (the Revis type) out there who are better than Tre at man coverage (guys like Gilmore and Ramsey). You can put those guys on an island and have them take on the best WR head on. But to be effective, they need CB2 to handle WR2 etc.

 

Tre is perfect for McD's scheme. But you cant pay top dollar for a scheme specific guy - even if you are like Buffalo with a secure coaching situation and defensive scheme - since it will affect the trade value in the future - say, if Bills want to move on from Tre 3 years from now. That is why OP's question has merit.

 

The nice thing about Gilmore and Tre is that they are not bunnies when it comes to the other coverage. In other words, Gilmore and Tre are more than adequate even in zone and man coverage, respectively - even though they are not among the league best. That is why these two players deserve top CB dollars. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by IgotBILLStopay

[krf139]

He gave up some big plays vs Houston. Would like to see that cleaned up before we have this discussion 

[hjnick]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

May I ask the question is IF CBs are worth that kind of money to a team? Is there any evidence the best CB helps a team win that much? A thanks to any poster who might know.

I don't have any solid evidence, just a gut feeling about it.

 

If I had to pay 2 spots on my DEF to have 1 Elite player, it would be Defensive End and Cornerback.

 

If you can use 1 player to take away an opposing teams best receiving threat and make them beat you with their 2,3,4th options, I think that puts your defense in a positive position to make plays and stop the offense.  You can also be more creative in your other coverages if you can trust that CB to hold that WR1 down.  IMO, that almost give you 'an extra man' on the field for defending the rest of the offensive team.

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

 

Interesting to see how the board views White if contract negotiations are difficult.  That's a huge if at this point, but the board turned against Clements when he wanted a big contract.  Difference is now that Buffalo has the Pegula dollars and isn't constrained by the Ralph/Littman penny-pinching.

 

Second, how would the Bills locker room view not signing someone like White? He's the first marquee player to be up for contract extension (apologies to Dawkins and Milano - they're not All-Pro caliber) and Buffalo has spent heavily on UFAs.  If he's not signed, it sends a message that McBeane's process talk is just that and they'll reward outside guys as opposed to home-grown.

 

There's a lot we still don't know about McBeane and their approach to negotiating contracts.  Many of the UFA deals are ones they can get out of after 1-2 seasons, but a Tre White deal likely is a 4-5 year extension.   I would think he'a  cornerstone player despite playing in a system where he gets help.  

 

 

Those 80 to 100 mil contacts should be for QB’s, DE, LT and middle LB’s that can blitz, cover and tackle on a elite level. 80 mil for a zone CB is not for me. If his asking price gets crazy I hope we trade him for a 1st rd pick. 

[MJS]

He's elite and it's his turn to get paid. Doesn't matter if he is the best. That's how this works. In a couple years he won't be the highest paid corner anymore.

[Mr. WEO]

This has been beaten pretty good over several threads.

 

So let's spice it up a little:  would you rather have McCaffrey at 16M a year or Tre White at 16M a year.  Can't have both.

'

Discuss.....

[Yav]

I look at play and character and for me there is no better than Tre. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, krf139 said:

He gave up some big plays vs Houston. Would like to see that cleaned up before we have this discussion 

 

On one hand I want to post the easy response to this absolute layup, but on the other hand why should I need to?

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, GreggTX said:

I don't think he's in the top 2 or 3, but he's very good and I hope he will sign for a fair price.

Would be interested in knowing who you consider the top 3 to be then.

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

This has been beaten pretty good over several threads.

 

So let's spice it up a little:  would you rather have McCaffrey at 16M a year or Tre White at 16M a year.  Can't have both.

'

Discuss.....

 

White. Once. Twice. And three times.

[Bangarang]

He’s among the best in the league. Pay him.

[Mr. WEO]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

White. Once. Twice. And three times.

 

 

I knew you were going there!

 

You can have him.  I would pay all day for a guy who scores points over a guy who may contribute overall to a side preventing more points being scored.  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I knew you were going there!

 

You can have him.  I would pay all day for a guy who scores points over a guy who may contribute overall to a side preventing more points being scored.  

 

I think McCaffrey is a special player. But Tre is elite at a premium position. Always going there.

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think McCaffrey is a special player. But Tre is elite at a premium position. Always going there.

 

It's easier to find an above average CB than a unique Offensive weapon.  Bills need points scored.  McC comes in and is the most potent weapon on the roster immediately.  Tre maintains the status quo.

[Happy]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Yes they were but they were also the 2nd worse pass defense in the league even though they lead the league in sacks.  

Why was that?  Why did they focus on the secondary in the offseason and not the run defense?  This past year they were 26th against the run but 8th against the pass.

I guess the 49ers model works and the Chiefs doesn't.

 

Yes putting pressure on the QB helps a DB just like not having WR running wide open helps the pass rush....especially if you have QB's that get the ball out quick.

 

Stephon Gilmore won the NFL defensive player of the year and he does get burned because you can't completely shut everyone down 100% of the time.

 

I just think it's pretty wild how a corner who didn't give up a single passing TD wasn't good enough for you.  I'm not making the argument he's the absolute best in the league but to say he's "above average", like at the same level as like an Adoree Jackson....it's really strange.  

 

 

I have nothing against Tre, I think he's a fine player.  To me, it seems like he struggles in man coverage in open areas; he may do better in shorter fields with man coverage, which could help explain the no TD stat.  I just wouldn't pay him elite money, or really any other DB; the league approach to the game makes playing the DB positions harder than it should be.  I'm also of the mindset that it is better to put more resources in the front seven rather than the backfield since getting to the QB and stopping the run is a better approach to defense.  I suspect McD is the opposite, he seems to be more DB focused; he doesn't ignore the line, but rather views coverage as his preferred defensive approach as evidenced in the 3rd and 18 vs Texans.  I'm aware there were execution issues, but if he went after Watson I bet they never get the first down and Buffalo wins the game.  

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's easier to find an above average CB than a unique Offensive weapon.  Bills need points scored.  McC comes in and is the most potent weapon on the roster immediately.  Tre maintains the status quo.

 

Tre is waaaaaaay more than above average. He is the best player on the team. And by a distance. 

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Tre is waaaaaaay more than above average. He is the best player on the team. And by a distance. 

 

 

That's the problem.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's the problem.

 

Nah. No way I am letting Tre walk. He is the closest the Bills have had to the best at his position in the league since Peters walked. They are the guys you keep. 

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nah. No way I am letting Tre walk. He is the closest the Bills have had to the best at his position in the league since Peters walked. They are the guys you keep. 

 

Mine was a hypothetical.  If the Bills swapped out the 2, the points for go up significantly more than the points against.  I think there is no question of that.

 

If your best player is a DB, you are the 2011 Jets.  

 

As for Peters...the Bills fortunes wouldn't have been much better had he stayed.  It's not an impact position.  Look at Joe Thomas's entire career anchoring a perennially awful O-line on a hopeless team.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Mine was a hypothetical.  If the Bills swapped out the 2, the points for go up significantly more than the points against.  I think there is no question of that.

 

If your best player is a DB, you are the 2011 Jets.  

 

As for Peters...the Bills fortunes wouldn't have been much better had he stayed.  It's not an impact position.  Look at Joe Thomas's entire career anchoring a perennially awful O-line on a hopeless team.

 

I disagree with the first and last paragraph. 

 

The middle para is true.... but it is also the 2009 and 2010 Jets who made the AFCCG.

[GoBills808]

23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

That's the problem.

It's way less of a problem than your best player being an RB.

[Mr. WEO]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It's way less of a problem than your best player being an RB.

 

 

Not isn he was on this Bills team--that's the point of the discussion.

[Mr. WEO]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with the first and last paragraph. 

 

The middle para is true.... but it is also the 2009 and 2010 Jets who made the AFCCG.

 

Thomas was a puff of flatus up against the massive winds of failure flowing over Cleveland from Lake Erie.

 

Philly won a SB after Peters was no longer contributing.  Some other guy stepped in.  Great LT-in the end, so what?  The Bills were bad with him, no worse without him (7 win teams to 6 win teams is no difference).

 

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Not isn he was on this Bills team--that's the point of the discussion.

My issue with the idea is twofold: replacement value on average of RB vs DB and their relative importance to how the team functions.

 

We know the Bills are currently built defense-first and while it's true that McDermott can get results from average defensive talent, his defenses have traditionally relied on a top performing DB (White now, Norman previously) as counterweight to his defensive line scheme and allows LBs to cheat a little in coverage toward the opposite field. 

 

I don't believe our current defense can be run without a top DB. Thus, the gap in replacement value of White v another DB is >>> than McCaffrey v Singletary imo.

 

All things being equal, I stand by my post that you'd rather have your best player be a defensive back than running back.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Thomas was a puff of flatus up against the massive winds of failure flowing over Cleveland from Lake Erie.

 

Philly won a SB after Peters was no longer contributing.  Some other guy stepped in.  Great LT-in the end, so what?  The Bills were bad with him, no worse without him (7 win teams to 6 win teams is no difference).

 

 

We know you love offensive weapons WEO but even McCaffery doesn't make a team on his own. The Panthers won 28 games in the 3 seasons before him. They have won 23 in the 3 seasons with him. By your logic he adds no wins either. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

We know you love offensive weapons WEO but even McCaffery doesn't make a team on his own. The Panthers won 28 games in the 3 seasons before him. They have won 23 in the 3 seasons with him. By your logic he adds no wins either. 

 

 

He adds points.  This team struggles mightily at that.  More points for this team adds wins.  He scored over 1/2 their TDs last season while they were being QB'd by the rotting corpse of Newton,  Kyle Allen and Will Grier.  

 

Not having a top CB like Tre White covering the other team's top WR (who may not be a big threat anyway) but having someone perhaps a notch below as CB is not going to result in a significant change in points allowed by this Defense.  

 

But add McC to this Offense right now?  Boom....

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

He adds points.  This team struggles mightily at that.  More points for this team adds wins.  He scored over 1/2 their TDs last season while they were being QB'd by the rotting corpse of Newton,  Kyle Allen and Will Grier.  

 

Not having a top CB like Tre White covering the other team's top WR (who may not be a big threat anyway) but having someone perhaps a notch below as CB is not going to result in a significant change in points allowed by this Defense.  

 

But add McC to this Offense right now?  Boom....

 

 

 

He hasn't added enough boom in Carolina to result in more wins. They are a worse team with him. 

[Mr. WEO]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

My issue with the idea is twofold: replacement value on average of RB vs DB and their relative importance to how the team functions.

 

We know the Bills are currently built defense-first and while it's true that McDermott can get results from average defensive talent, his defenses have traditionally relied on a top performing DB (White now, Norman previously) as counterweight to his defensive line scheme and allows LBs to cheat a little in coverage toward the opposite field. 

 

I don't believe our current defense can be run without a top DB. Thus, the gap in replacement value of White v another DB is >>> than McCaffrey v Singletary imo.

 

All things being equal, I stand by my post that you'd rather have your best player be a defensive back than running back.

 

I was tempted to not read beyond "average RB"....lol

 

Of course it can.  If Tre was injured and couldn't play, how many more points per game do you think they would give up?  Not over one guy.

 

We are only talking about the impact of a single player, one versus the other.

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He hasn't added enough boom in Carolina to result in more wins. They are a worse team with him. 

 

The Bills aren't the Panthers...also the point off this discussion.

 

You are being disingenuous of you are arguing that McC did not have a massive impact on that Offense last year.  Come on!  Who else would conclude that that Offense last year was worse with him??  In the absence of the Offense that Newton had in the past provided, McC was the Offense...

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I was tempted to not read beyond "average RB"....lol

 

Of course it can.  If Tre was injured and couldn't play, how many more points per game do you think they would give up?  Not over one guy.

 

We are only talking about the impact of a single player, one versus the other.

I would guess that McCaffrey and White's impact on the spread is just about equal. 

 

And I definitely am not calling CMC 'average'.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I was tempted to not read beyond "average RB"....lol

 

Of course it can.  If Tre was injured and couldn't play, how many more points per game do you think they would give up?  Not over one guy.

 

We are only talking about the impact of a single player, one versus the other.

 

He didn't say average running back. He said the "value on average" of rb vs cb. 

 

Personally I think Tre out would make us a touchdown a game worse on defense. That is how critical I think he is..

[DCOrange]

I think there's probably 5-10 players on our team that I would pay $16 million a year before I'd pay McCaffrey and Tre is obviously one of them. Not saying they'd all be good contracts, but I don't think McCaffrey's is a good contract either.

Edited April 16, 2020 by DCOrange

[billsbackto81]

Whether he's the "best" is debatable. He is in the " elite" category. So many factors to consider when discussing CBs. Speed, physicality, shadowing, closing speed, hands, reaction and recognition. I'd say he's definitely Top 3 and deserves to be compensated at the going rate. And that's not taking into consideration that he's a stand up community guy that genuinely wants to be here. PAY DA MAN!!!

[Lurker]

I guess I'm bored like everyone else.

 

As I said earlier, I think Tre's the best zone CB in the league.    His good fortune (see what I did there) is that his next contract will be based on the pay scale for top CBs, period--which is usually set by man-to-man guys.     That's a big win for him and I'm glad he's a great, team-oriented guy.

 

The Bills will pay up and life will move on...

[Mr. WEO]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He didn't say average running back. He said the "value on average" of rb vs cb. 

 

Personally I think Tre out would make us a touchdown a game worse on defense. That is how critical I think he is..

One guy...7 points? No way.  That’s a seismic difference in the NFL.  The D would have to a sieve for one guy to come in and make that difference.  It’s not.

 

Mack made a 3 point impact on the Bears D (for 1 year anyway)...and he’s a supreme disruption at a high impact position.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

One guy...7 points? No way.  That’s a seismic difference in the NFL.  The D would have to a sieve for one guy to come in and make that difference.  It’s not.

 

Mack made a 3 point impact on the Bears D (for 1 year anyway)...and he’s a supreme disruption at a high impact position.

 

White is critical to way the whole scheme operates. If you don't have White able to match up 1 on 1 you can't play the cover 3 McDermott wants to play and you end up in more of a tampa 2 shell. We have seen - think early in 2018 - that when this team gets in a rut defensively it generally comes in the Tampa 2 where they can't get the extra guy down in the box. The stuff the Bills do with their coverage is as advanced as anyone in the league. They are pretty vanilla up front and extremely complex on the backend. So for this team, losing the best guy out of that secondary.... yea..  I think it would be in the region of a touchdown per game. Because it isn't just the drop off from White to Wallace or White to Norman. It is the drop off from a defense that has its who defensive call sheet available to one that suddenly loses half of it. 

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Those 80 to 100 mil contacts should be for QB’s, DE, LT and middle LB’s that can blitz, cover and tackle on a elite level. 80 mil for a zone CB is not for me. If his asking price gets crazy I hope we trade him for a 1st rd pick. 

 

And every Bills draft pick who performs under this regime will remember that decision.  There is a macro perspective necessary to a decision, although I'm not saying to re-sign him for that sake alone.  This is why a GM gets paid the way he does - to make those difficult choices.  

 

You can't run from every less than simple decision and if (still a huge if ) White wants a big contract.  Remember, this is a team that let Stephon Gilmore walk and replaced him essentially with White, who under your scenario, would be allowed out for a pick this time.  And if someone's giving up a 1st for him, doesn't that sort of indicate another team values him AND the contract he'd presumably demand?

 

Team Building requires more than surface thinking.  It's a deep dive and almost requires one to anticipate the externalities of a decision.  

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

And every Bills draft pick who performs under this regime will remember that decision.  There is a macro perspective necessary to a decision, although I'm not saying to re-sign him for that sake alone.  This is why a GM gets paid the way he does - to make those difficult choices.  

 

You can't run from every less than simple decision and if (still a huge if ) White wants a big contract.  Remember, this is a team that let Stephon Gilmore walk and replaced him essentially with White, who under your scenario, would be allowed out for a pick this time.  And if someone's giving up a 1st for him, doesn't that sort of indicate another team values him AND the contract he'd presumably demand?

 

Team Building requires more than surface thinking.  It's a deep dive and almost requires one to anticipate the externalities of a decision.  

 

This is also a very good point. White has been the epitome of their process. Come in, got his head down, worked, developed. He was the first pick of the regime. If they don't reward that the message it sends to Allen and Edmunds and Oliver and Dawkins and Milano and Singletary and the rest is not a great one. Buffalo is never going to be seen as a go to FA destination. So we need it to be a place that our good draft picks want to stay in because they feel they will be valued. 

[Success]

I could go to a game & watch Tre the whole time, and be exhilarated the whole time. He's one of those pure football players - great skills, great focus, great instincts.

 

People compare him to Gilmore, saying he's still 2nd, but I won't have any of that. Gilmore mailed it in while he was here too much.  I don't elevate players who only give their best when the situation is perfect for them or they're playing for a "winner." I'll never respect Gilmore.

 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is also a very good point. White has been the epitome of their process. Come in, got his head down, worked, developed. He was the first pick of the regime. If they don't reward that the message it sends to Allen and Edmunds and Oliver and Dawkins and Milano and Singletary and the rest is not a great one. Buffalo is never going to be seen as a go to FA destination. So we need it to be a place that our good draft picks want to stay in because they feel they will be valued. 

Arguably, Gilmore is the most important player on New England's defense, and Belichick recognizes. White is arguably the most important player on Buffalo's defense, and McDermott recognizes it. White is not only a core player he is also an instrumental player. As you and others have pointed out White is the essential player that allows the McDermott defense to work. There are defenses that radiate from the defensive line to the backside. McDermott's defense is different. It radiates from the backside. That's why White is such a critical player for us.