Jordan Reed- 6 months in concussion protocol

[Dablitzkrieg]

 

[whatdrought]

Isn’t that just retired?... I feel like that’s another term for that. 

[DCbillsfan]

This guy was a real talent when he was healthy.  7 concussions.  Hopefully he was smart with his money.

[Simon]

If this kid ever tries to step on ballfield again I hope one of his teammates tackles him.

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

17 minutes ago, Simon said:

If this kid ever tries to step on ballfield again I hope one of his teammates tackles him.

Very gently, of course.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

That likely is fake... NFL memes and dailysnark?

[NoSaint]

8 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

That likely is fake... NFL memes and dailysnark?

looks like he actually cleared it and wants to continuing playing based on all the articles that pop up today 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Simon said:

If this kid ever tries to step on ballfield again I hope one of his teammates tackles him.

 

Or takes him gently by the hand and leads him to a soft and comfy sofa

 

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

 

 

According to this article, on CBSsports.com, he has cleared concussion protocol and wishes to play again.

 

I hope to hell every team in the league puts their hands in their pockets and says “no”.  Signing a guy who spent 6 months in concussion protocol to give him the chance to get another .....that, IMO, would be irresponsible.

 

 

[Needle]

Shouldn't the NFL step in and protect this man? When does a players history supercede the testing requirements? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, Needle said:

Shouldn't the NFL step in and protect this man? When does a players history supercede the testing requirements? 

 

I think that’s an excellent question.  There have been players that team physicians will no longer clear - Aaron Williams, Eric Wood, due to neck injuries.

 

A concussion can’t be detected on an MRI like a spinal disk injury, but at some point, when “enough” of them stack up and recovery is as prolonged as 6 months, it does seem as though the physicians should stop clearing the player.

[Hedge]

4 hours ago, DCbillsfan said:

This guy was a real talent when he was healthy.

 

I remember that game.

 

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

This is crazy.  A year ago, my oldest son came to me in college and he had a full ride in lax. He had his fourth concussion and asked me what I think he should do.  I asked him what does he think he should do.  He said, he thinks it might be a good decision to hang it up.  I told him he knew the answer all along, just wanted confirmation.  
 

I thought this was Germaine to the topic.  No amount of money is worth you’re health.  I’m also shocked a team would continue letting him play with the buzz on CTE. 

[JoPoy88]

4 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Isn’t that just retired?... I feel like that’s another term for that. 

jesus man. No filter on you huh? No he isn’t technically retired although he probably should be for his own sake. 

[Big Turk]

Jordan...please retire before you have serious long term damage....if you already have not...

[DFT]

Seems like overwhelming concern here.   But it’s important to understand there’s different degrees of concussions, so without knowing the severity or the ongoing symptoms he had for 6 months, there’s no telling.  For example, migraines, photosensitivity, tinnitus are all examples of post-concussion symptoms that if a player reports, will keep them from getting cleared.  I think his being honest with the medical staff about some of the lingering things shows he has enough good sense and concern for himself to make a sound decision.   Also and this is really important, today’s neurological presence and advancements in the NFL will not permit players to easily be activated from protocol.  There’s an impartiality to the process that even Dan Snyder can’t manipulate.  It’s easy to see 7 concussions and react, but there’s just so much that’s weighed when reviewing the degree and severity of an injury that doesn’t show up on scans.  The real measure of concern will be known once we see who takes a flier.   The Bills have already been mentioned as a possibility, given the Olsen attempt.   You’ll know teams share the same concerns, if he’s not signed or at least, worked out.   But I wouldn’t vilify any him or  any team signing him, if their medical staff clears him.

 

 

also....Aside from Cincy and NYJ, the Redskins have one of the more questionable medical teams in the business and have come under fire recently.  If he had been dishonest and prematurely passed, all that is “3rd party”, would be gone and he’d be in the team’s hands.  Speaking with folks in that area, JR did everything the right way at the behest of the 3rd party and not the team’s medical staff. I’m hopeful more will come to light about this once he moves on, too.  The Redskins are notorious for rushing players back and you’re starting to see players coming forward.  That’s exactly why INC’s have been assigned.  The team physician I believe cleared him, but the dedicated INC did not, which landed him on IR.  If he passes the cognitive assessments (which he has fully) and a team signs him, more power to him.  

Edited February 20, 2020 by DFT

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that’s an excellent question.  There have been players that team physicians will no longer clear - Aaron Williams, Eric Wood, due to neck injuries.

 

A concussion can’t be detected on an MRI like a spinal disk injury, but at some point, when “enough” of them stack up and recovery is as prolonged as 6 months, it does seem as though the physicians should stop clearing the player.

 

100% agreed.

[whatdrought]

7 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

jesus man. No filter on you huh? No he isn’t technically retired although he probably should be for his own sake. 

What?

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Needle said:

Shouldn't the NFL step in and protect this man? When does a players history supercede the testing requirements? 

 

That's not the NFL's responsibility.   It's the sole responsibility of the player to assess the risk/benefit of playing.  The team can just cut him because they think he's done, as they would in non-injury cuts.

 

Let the very-concerned-about-players'-health NFLPA counsel him...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, DFT said:

Seems like overwhelming concern here.   But it’s important to understand there’s different degrees of concussions, so without knowing the severity or the ongoing symptoms he had for 6 months, there’s no telling.  For example, migraines, photosensitivity, tinnitus are all examples of post-concussion symptoms that if a player reports, will keep them from getting cleared.  I think his being honest with the medical staff about some of the lingering things shows he has enough good sense and concern for himself to make a sound decision.   Also and this is really important, today’s neurological presence and advancements in the NFL will not permit players to easily be activated from protocol.  There’s an impartiality to the process that even Dan Snyder can’t manipulate.  It’s easy to see 7 concussions and react, but there’s just so much that’s weighed when reviewing the degree and severity of an injury that doesn’t show up on scans.  The real measure of concern will be known once we see who takes a flier.   The Bills have already been mentioned as a possibility, given the Olsen attempt.   You’ll know teams share the same concerns, if he’s not signed or at least, worked out.   But I wouldn’t vilify any him or  any team signing him, if their medical staff clears him.

 

 

also....Aside from Cincy and NYJ, the Redskins have one of the more questionable medical teams in the business and have come under fire recently.  If he had been dishonest and prematurely passed, all that is “3rd party”, would be gone and he’d be in the team’s hands.  Speaking with folks in that area, JR did everything the right way at the behest of the 3rd party and not the team’s medical staff. I’m hopeful more will come to light about this once he moves on, too.  The Redskins are notorious for rushing players back and you’re starting to see players coming forward.  That’s exactly why INC’s have been assigned.  The team physician I believe cleared him, but the dedicated INC did not, which landed him on IR.  If he passes the cognitive assessments (which he has fully) and a team signs him, more power to him.  

 

All good points well put.  As a counterpoint, and it's a big one - the progression of severity of successive concussions is unpredictable, as I understand it.  But prolonged symptoms of any sort are, I believe, regarded as a "red flag" that subsequent concussions may involve even more prolonged recovery or permanent damage.

 

Kevin Kolb has been interviewed saying he suffers from severe tinnitus permanently.  Permanent migraines could also be pretty debilitating.

 

I believe that the guy has been legit cleared from protocol, but I think there are remaining concerns about him playing.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's not the NFL's responsibility.   It's the sole responsibility of the player to assess the risk/benefit of playing.  The team can just cut him because they think he's done, as they would in non-injury cuts.

 

Let the very-concerned-about-players'-health NFLPA counsel him...

 

But see above, WEO ....."it's the sole responsibility" is not quite true.  For example, Aaron Williams wanted to play for the Saints, but their team physician refused to clear him due to his neck injuries (I think we discussed this).  Eric Wood is another example: it wasn't "up to" him, the Bills team physician said "Nope! No more!" 

 

I believe there are other cases - for example, it's been discussed locally that Jay Bouwmeester may wish to return to NHL hockey after collapsing and being rushed off to have an ICD placed, but I think the Blues team physicians would say "mmmmmmm NO" if he tries.

 

Clearly where physically documentable injury is the case, team physicians can and do say "Nope, no longer clearable".  It's not always left to the player's sole responsibility.

 

The question is: wouldn't or shouldn't repeated concussion with prolonged recovery, pose a similar risk where the team physician should say "Nope, no longer clearable"? 

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But see above, WEO ....."it's the sole responsibility" is not quite true.  For example, Aaron Williams wanted to play for the Saints, but their team physician refused to clear him due to his neck injuries (I think we discussed this).  Eric Wood is another example: it wasn't "up to" him, the Bills team physician said "Nope! No more!" 

 

I believe there are other cases - for example, it's been discussed locally that Jay Bouwmeester may wish to return to NHL hockey after collapsing and being rushed off to have an ICD placed, but I think the Blues team physicians would say "mmmmmmm NO" if he tries.

 

Clearly where physically documentable injury is the case, team physicians can and do say "Nope, no longer clearable".  It's not always left to the player's sole responsibility.

 

The question is: wouldn't or shouldn't repeated concussion with prolonged recovery, pose a similar risk where the team physician should say "Nope, no longer clearable"? 

 

Those are easy cases--team doctors says no. 

 

But Jordan has been cleared. 

[DFT]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

All good points well put.  As a counterpoint, and it's a big one - the progression of severity of successive concussions is unpredictable, as I understand it.  But prolonged symptoms of any sort are, I believe, regarded as a "red flag" that subsequent concussions may involve even more prolonged recovery or permanent damage.

 

Kevin Kolb has been interviewed saying he suffers from severe tinnitus permanently.  Permanent migraines could also be pretty debilitating.

 

I believe that the guy has been legit cleared from protocol, but I think there are remaining concerns about him playing.

Great point, and absolutely you are correct.  Overlapping concussions can be cumulative. And that’s why they’ve implemented testing that is light years beyond where they were even 5 years ago, to determine if there’s a great cause for concern, including Neuro-Psych, and the new (and WAAAAAY more thorough) baseline comparative testing that identifies markers.  Also, adding the Neuro-Psych e v a l at both the Pro and collegiate levels gives team doctors early markers for things like depression,  mild to severe CI and other cumulative symptoms that cause players to deteriorate.   

 

Its gonna be interesting seeing if a market develops for Reed.  He’s a great kid and an immense talent, but nobody will take on the liability if his baseline testing shows any indicators.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Those are easy cases--team doctors says no. 

 

But Jordan has been cleared. 

 

He's been cleared from concussion protocol by the INC

 

The point I'm raising is "at some point, shouldn't team physicians say "no"?  There is a conflict of interest here for a player under contract - if the team physician says "no" and the player is considered disabled, the team has higher contract liabilities.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He's been cleared from concussion protocol by the INC

 

The point I'm raising is "at some point, shouldn't team physicians say "no"?  There is a conflict of interest here for a player under contract - if the team physician says "no" and the player is considered disabled, the team has higher contract liabilities.

 

They can always say no, I guess.  But they would have to point to an objective criteria that led them to conclude that the player cannot play in the NFL anymore.  In this case, there is none they can cite.  Testing was done.  He passed the tests.  This isn't a case of structural injury (broken neck, for instance) where the risk is more concrete.

 

In this case, it's not just the team physician who has cleared him, so there is no conflict for the team.

 

[Needle]

54 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

They can always say no, I guess.  But they would have to point to an objective criteria that led them to conclude that the player cannot play in the NFL anymore.  In this case, there is none they can cite.  Testing was done.  He passed the tests.  This isn't a case of structural injury (broken neck, for instance) where the risk is more concrete.

 

In this case, it's not just the team physician who has cleared him, so there is no conflict for the team.

 

I don't think you need to have a medical degree to understand that Reed shouldn't play football again. If the testing says otherwise than the entire program needs to be re evaluated. 

[BillsInWilmingtonNC]

11 minutes ago, Needle said:

I don't think you need to have a medical degree to understand that Reed shouldn't play football again. If the testing says otherwise than the entire program needs to be re evaluated. 

Its an interesting case because you would hope that players would value their health and well-being enough to hang it up when they needed 6 months to recover from a concussion.   But if doctors start telling players that they cannot play anymore due to history of concussions, this is encouraging players in the future to be dishonest about possible concussion symptoms in fear of losing the ability to play or even make their own decision to play or not in the future.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Needle said:

I don't think you need to have a medical degree to understand that Reed shouldn't play football again. If the testing says otherwise than the entire program needs to be re evaluated. 

 

Having an opinion that he should not play again is for anyone to offer.  But the only opinion that matters in this case it that of his medical team which has used all tools of medical  assessment for his injury and deemed him cleared to play.  No doubt they made him aware of the risks of further concussion and neurological injury in the short and long term, but the simple truth is that they don't have a medical indication, right now, that he is not fit to resume play.

 

Doesn't matter much anyway: his neuro fate is sealed whether he gets another concussion or not, whether he plays another down or not.

[Needle]

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Having an opinion that he should not play again is for anyone to offer.  But the only opinion that matters in this case it that of his medical team which has used all tools of medical  assessment for his injury and deemed him cleared to play.  No doubt they made him aware of the risks of further concussion and neurological injury in the short and long term, but the simple truth is that they don't have a medical indication, right now, that he is not fit to resume play.

 

Doesn't matter much anyway: his neuro fate is sealed whether he gets another concussion or not, whether he plays another down or not.

 

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Having an opinion that he should not play again is for anyone to offer.  But the only opinion that matters in this case it that of his medical team which has used all tools of medical  assessment for his injury and deemed him cleared to play.  No doubt they made him aware of the risks of further concussion and neurological injury in the short and long term, but the simple truth is that they don't have a medical indication, right now, that he is not fit to resume play.

 

Doesn't matter much anyway: his neuro fate is sealed whether he gets another concussion or not, whether he plays another down or not.

I agree with most of this but I don't think you can assume it "doesn't matter much anyway". If this latest concussion kept him out for 6 months, why wouldn't another bad one further damage him? 

 

I think boxing is a great example of how athletes can't be trusted to protect themselves. Ali passed all of his "tests" before he climbed into the ring with early stages of Parkinsons and took a meaningless beating from Holmes. There are many examples of guys fighting way too long and getting rocked multiple times. The list of fighters who were permanently damaged in these types of fights is long.

 

I don't think football is much different. All I am saying is that the NFL could learn from boxing's mistakes. Jordan Reed passing the tests in place reminds me of some of those disturbing fights that didn't need to happen. 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

16 hours ago, DCbillsfan said:

This guy was a real talent when he was healthy.  7 concussions.  Hopefully he was smart with his money.

He's certainly not smart with his health.  He came off protocol today. 

[Mr. WEO]

54 minutes ago, Needle said:

 

I agree with most of this but I don't think you can assume it "doesn't matter much anyway". If this latest concussion kept him out for 6 months, why wouldn't another bad one further damage him? 

 

I think boxing is a great example of how athletes can't be trusted to protect themselves. Ali passed all of his "tests" before he climbed into the ring with early stages of Parkinsons and took a meaningless beating from Holmes. There are many examples of guys fighting way too long and getting rocked multiple times. The list of fighters who were permanently damaged in these types of fights is long.

 

I don't think football is much different. All I am saying is that the NFL could learn from boxing's mistakes. Jordan Reed passing the tests in place reminds me of some of those disturbing fights that didn't need to happen. 

 

 

CTE is not a function of numbers of known concussions.  It's caused by the summation of countless subclinical blows to the head.  As for concussions, a single one will predispose you to another.  No league will ever venture a "maximum concussion number" limit because that would be not science or fact based.

 

It was the independent third party MD that cleared Reed.  It's not the NFL's doing.

 

The issue is that if you have a protocol in place, and the protocol is based on current accepted science and involves independent evaluation and clearance, how would the NFL be in a position to then ignore their own protocol, the evaluation made by the independent physician and the clearance of the physician.  That doesn't make sense.  It would make the whole system arbitrary, which is exactly what it is designed not to be.

 

And obviously boxing (and MMA) hasn't learned form "boxing's mistakes" or there would be no boxing.

[Needle]

7 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

CTE is not a function of numbers of known concussions.  It's caused by the summation of countless subclinical blows to the head.  As for concussions, a single one will predispose you to another.  No league will ever venture a "maximum concussion number" limit because that would be not science or fact based.

 

It was the independent third party MD that cleared Reed.  It's not the NFL's doing.

 

The issue is that if you have a protocol in place, and the protocol is based on current accepted science and involves independent evaluation and clearance, how would the NFL be in a position to then ignore their own protocol, the evaluation made by the independent physician and the clearance of the physician.  That doesn't make sense.  It would make the whole system arbitrary, which is exactly what it is designed not to be.

 

And obviously boxing (and MMA) hasn't learned form "boxing's mistakes" or there would be no boxing.

You are correct that CTE isn't a function of the number of concussions one suffers. You are also correct that it is a function of repetitive blows to the head. However a concussion occurs when a more severe blow to the head occurs. The big thing is that the damage sustained with each concussion goes up and the recovery period lengthens. The force needed for future concussions also goes down. So yes you can destroy your brain without suffering concussions but numerous concussions can also tell you a lot about ones brain damage.

 

I don't have a lot of faith in the third party MDs that would clear a guy in Reed's shoes. It doesn't take very much research to see that their are a ton of differing opinions on CTE and brain trauma. It's not as simple as saying the protocol is based on "current science".

 

The UFC refused the last Chuck Liddell vs Tito Ortiz fight because Liddell had been ko'd too many times. Scumbag Oscar De La Hoya picked up the card and Chuck got ko'd again under Golden Boys boxing promotions. I give the UFC credit for identifying the danger and protecting their figther.

 

 

[Happy]

Released by the Redskins today.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001102578/article/redskins-part-ways-with-veteran-te-jordan-reed

[BeastMode54]

I tried to say this weeks ago

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Needle said:

You are correct that CTE isn't a function of the number of concussions one suffers. You are also correct that it is a function of repetitive blows to the head. However a concussion occurs when a more severe blow to the head occurs. The big thing is that the damage sustained with each concussion goes up and the recovery period lengthens. The force needed for future concussions also goes down. So yes you can destroy your brain without suffering concussions but numerous concussions can also tell you a lot about ones brain damage.

 

I don't have a lot of faith in the third party MDs that would clear a guy in Reed's shoes. It doesn't take very much research to see that their are a ton of differing opinions on CTE and brain trauma. It's not as simple as saying the protocol is based on "current science".

 

The UFC refused the last Chuck Liddell vs Tito Ortiz fight because Liddell had been ko'd too many times. Scumbag Oscar De La Hoya picked up the card and Chuck got ko'd again under Golden Boys boxing promotions. I give the UFC credit for identifying the danger and protecting their figther.

 

 

 

But it doesn't matter where you faith lies.  Accepted protocols are in place and based on current knowledge, this is how such decisions are made.  Physicians don't make come to conclusions based on the faith-based beliefs of lay people.  Thank them for that.

 

 

[Needle]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

But it doesn't matter where you faith lies.  Accepted protocols are in place and based on current knowledge, this is how such decisions are made.  Physicians don't make come to conclusions based on the faith-based beliefs of lay people.  Thank them for that.

 

 

Don't be naive....physicians aren't batting a thousand in this world. You can find research and opinions that contradict each other in every form of medicine. 

 

Anyone who clears Jordan Reed for football should have their medical competency questioned. He would probably be better off getting examined by most of the posters here.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Needle