Tom Flores HOF snub

[stuvian]

https://www.espn.com/blog/oakland-raiders/post/_/id/24062/how-was-tom-flores-leapfrogged-by-bill-cowher-jimmy-johnson-for-hall-of-fame

 

2 time SB winner

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Johnson’s bombast and Cowher’s glare must outweigh Flores quiet professionalism.  ?

[machine gun kelly]

This is tough as the two winners had fantastic careers, but hard to pass over a coach who won as a player for KC, then as an Assistant to Madden, and then won two in 80 and 83.  Those games weren’t even close.

 

I hope he gets in before he passes as he is 83, and at that age you just hope he can make it.  

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Comparing their records, Cowher is much stronger, more total years coaching , twice as many winning seasons, won a SB in his next to last season coaching, both had a losing season streak in the middle and came back to win again, but Flores had a second losing streak, last 4 seasons coaching all had poor records, never won more than 6 games his last 4 years, admittedly was in a rebuilding mode, but never got them over the hump.

 

Johnson is a bit tougher argument as less seasons coaching, but no losing seasons after his 1st 1-15 record.  But he also did win 2 SB's and also had success with a 2nd team something Flores failed in rather badly.

 

Flores also suffers from much of the Raiders credit going to Al Davis, particularly prior to free agency Davis had a dynasty for many years.  Flores may have had a better chance of making the HOF if he hadn't come back to Seattle to coach as all were bad years and probably convinced more that it was all Al Davis doing with the Raiders.  It tended to show he could only win when he was handed a very strong team.

[Logic]

The one that keeps getting me is Don Coryell. 

It is absurd, ridiculous, downright criminal that Coryell isn't in the Hall of Fame. The modern NFL passing game literally would not exist without him. Just an insane, Tasker-level snub.

[C.Biscuit97]

He wasn’t alive for his coaching career but it seems amazing that a 2 time SB coach won’t be in the HOF.  Is there more to the story?

[4_kidd_4]

My uncle, huge Raiders fan, he likes to go to their hotel when they’re in town v. Buffalo, get some pics and all that fan stuff.

 

Last time they were here him and my cousin were waiting by the elevator, the door opens and Del Rio is the first one out and immediately gives them a dickish brush off “Sorry, no time today”, and my uncle says “Oh we weren’t waiting for you anyways, we’re waiting for three 

time  Superbowl champ Coach Flores”, ha. 

 

Flores stepped out and chatted with them for a good half hour. 

[Happy]

5 minutes ago, Logic said:

The one that keeps getting me is Don Coryell. 

It is absurd, ridiculous, downright criminal that Coryell isn't in the Hall of Fame. The modern NFL passing game literally would not exist without him. Just an insane, Tasker-level snub.

 

In a time where it is the Hall of Very Good, Air Coryell, along with Dan Fouts, created what has become the modern passing offense.  I think Coryell should be in the Hall of Fame, and the only reason he's not is because he didn't win a SB.  I do NOT think Cowher or Tom Flores should be in the Hall.  They really didn't change/modernize/shape the game at all.

[Bferra13]

Cowgals and Squealers are in that NFL royalty club that, to some extent, gets special privileges. Both make me want to puke.

[Logic]

14 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

In a time where it is the Hall of Very Good, Air Coryell, along with Dan Fouts, created what has become the modern passing offense.  I think Coryell should be in the Hall of Fame, and the only reason he's not is because he didn't win a SB.  I do NOT think Cowher or Tom Flores should be in the Hall.  They really didn't change/modernize/shape the game at all.

I agree about Cowher, for sure. I genuinely don't understand what he did to be worthy of the Hall of Fame. At least in Flores' case, he won TWO Lombardis, as opposed to Cowher, who won one. Baffling.

Tasker and Coryell are the two biggest remaining HOF snubs, in my opinion.

[billsbackto81]

26 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Comparing their records, Cowher is much stronger, more total years coaching , twice as many winning seasons, won a SB in his next to last season coaching, both had a losing season streak in the middle and came back to win again, but Flores had a second losing streak, last 4 seasons coaching all had poor records, never won more than 6 games his last 4 years, admittedly was in a rebuilding mode, but never got them over the hump.

 

 

Didn't exactly  "win it" as much as it was given to him. Probably the most fraudulent SB in recent memory.

 

That being said, I wish someone "gave" Marv a SB?

[row_33]

35 minutes ago, Logic said:

The one that keeps getting me is Don Coryell. 

It is absurd, ridiculous, downright criminal that Coryell isn't in the Hall of Fame. The modern NFL passing game literally would not exist without him. Just an insane, Tasker-level snub.

 

how did his teams do when it mattered?

 

 

[Logic]

Just now, row_33 said:

 

how did his teams do when it mattered?

 

 

What do I care?

He pretty much invented the modern NFL passing game. To my mind, that's a contribution worthy of Hall of Fame inclusion. I'm not alone in this thought. Just about every NFL coach agrees that he absolutely ought to be in the Hall of Fame.

Here's an article wherein Belichick talks about the ongoing influence of Coryell on the NFL passing game, and how his coaching tree and playbook continues to this day.

https://www.boston.com/sports/extra-points/2010/07/02/remembering_don

I mean...what did Bill Cowher do? He won one Super Bowl and had a memorable chin. 

[row_33]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

What do I care?

He pretty much invented the modern NFL passing game. To my mind, that's a contribution worthy of Hall of Fame inclusion. I'm not alone in this thought. Just about every NFL coach agrees that he absolutely ought to be in the Hall of Fame.

Here's an article wherein Belichick talks about the ongoing influence of Coryell on the NFL passing game, and how his coaching tree and playbook continues to this day.

https://www.boston.com/sports/extra-points/2010/07/02/remembering_don

I mean...what did Bill Cowher do? He won one Super Bowl and had a memorable chin. 

 

 

if you don't care, then why would anyone else care?

 

okay, that's two hot takes, got a third?

 

 

[Logic]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

 

if you don't care, then why would anyone else care?

 

okay, that's two hot takes, got a third?

 

 

What exactly are you on about, bro?

I've explained exactly why I think Coryell should be in the Hall. You disagree. That's fine.

Not sure what's got your panties in a bunch.

[hjnick]

Pretty simple.  The NFL in it's 100 year glory wanted to have coaches on each of the NFL pregame shows to get into the hall.  They wanted it very open and for everyone to see.

 

Basically a big NFL commercial in the middle of a pregame show.

[row_33]

1 minute ago, hjnick said:

Pretty simple.  The NFL in it's 100 year glory wanted to have coaches on each of the NFL pregame shows to get into the hall.  They wanted it very open and for everyone to see.

 

Basically a big NFL commercial in the middle of a pregame show.

 

it certainly helps, but the greats get in even without a panel show

 

 

[hjnick]

25 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

it certainly helps, but the greats get in even without a panel show

 

 

To be honest with you, I have no clue if Flores belongs in the hall, or jimmy, or cowher.

 

All were great coaches in my opinion, but I think the reason why jimmy and cowher were chosen over the others is bc it was a publicity stunt for NFL 100.

 

Which BTW worked out very well for the NFL.  The surprise on their faces and their speechlessness was very heart tugging.

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Bferra13 said:

Cowgals and Squealers are in that NFL royalty club that, to some extent, gets special privileges. Both make me want to puke.

 

Why would you give such childish nicknames to two storied franchises with such rich, winning histories?

[row_33]

15 minutes ago, hjnick said:

To be honest with you, I have no clue if Flores belongs in the hall, or jimmy, or cowher.

 

All were great coaches in my opinion, but I think the reason why jimmy and cowher were chosen over the others is bc it was a publicity stunt for NFL 100.

 

Which BTW worked out very well for the NFL.  The surprise on their faces and their speechlessness was very heart tugging.

 

if he gets in, fine with me

 

if he doesn't, fine with me

 

the NFL is selling something, you might find it is less appealing as the years go by, you may not....

 

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Didn't exactly  "win it" as much as it was given to him. Probably the most fraudulent SB in recent memory.

 

That being said, I wish someone "gave" Marv a SB?

 

Don't remember a controversy around it it?  What happened?  I see that was 2005, quite awhile back. 

[row_33]

6 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Don't remember a controversy around it it?  What happened?  I see that was 2005, quite awhile back. 

 

the winning TD wasn't completely provable on replay either way, another reason not to seek a Utopia through replay.

 

i was indifferent to the winner of that game and had no problem with it being a TD and it standing

 

 

 

[Ennjay]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

The one that keeps getting me is Don Coryell. 

It is absurd, ridiculous, downright criminal that Coryell isn't in the Hall of Fame. The modern NFL passing game literally would not exist without him. Just an insane, Tasker-level snub.

You are exactly right.

 

It shows again that voters for the HOF of "the ultimate team game" put too much emphasis on winning Super Bowls.  Of course that counts for something, but a guy (Coryell) who made a huge mark on this sport is penalized because his teams in St Louis and San Diego were good enough to be in the championship mix for years but never overcame some other good teams like Dallas and Pittsburgh and Miami to get to the top.  Coryell made Dan Fouts, who's in the HOF himself.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

36 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

the winning TD wasn't completely provable on replay either way, another reason not to seek a Utopia through replay.

 

i was indifferent to the winner of that game and had no problem with it being a TD and it standing

 

 

 

 

So a controversial call impacted the outcome of the game?  In other words just a typical game!

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

So a controversial call impacted the outcome of the game?  In other words just a typical game!

 

this was one of the rarer ones that was close and came down to a last minute TD drive

 

seen so many it's a blur now, only a few plays and the Bills 4 SBs are fresh in my memory

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

this was one of the rarer ones that was close and came down to a last minute TD drive

 

seen so many it's a blur now, only a few plays and the Bills 4 SBs are fresh in my memory

 

 

Don't recall much about the game to be honest.

 

Kind of funny as if you were to ask me what teams played in the 1983 SB I can tell you just about every game.  And honestly I have better reccollections of the games prior to say 1995 than the ones played in the last 10 to 15 years, though I did watch them all.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Coryell and Flores both deserve to be in and should have been in years ago.

I don't think Cowher is deserving but I can live with it if Flores and Coryell were voted in.

I don't think Levy was worthy of HOF either. I was shocked he got voted in so fast. 

As for Johnson I have no idea why it took this long. Only thing I can think of is the committee may have felt he was going to unretire and come back to coach again.

[row_33]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Don't recall much about the game to be honest.

 

Kind of funny as if you were to ask me what teams played in the 1983 SB I can tell you just about every game.  And honestly I have better reccollections of the games prior to say 1995 than the ones played in the last 10 to 15 years, though I did watch them all.

 

my inquisitive pursuits on sports facts has left me perfect for sports from 1920 to around 1986, i doubt i could name much correctly in major sports since then....

 

i posit that sports was the best when one was 11, which would be 1977 for me.

 

the sporcle trivia site is good for testing out your memories

 

the 2nd huge play of that SB was Harrison's pick 6 off Curt Warner for 100 yards as the clock expired in the first half...

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by row_33

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

6 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

my inquisitive pursuits on sports facts has left me perfect for sports from 1920 to around 1986, i doubt i could name much correctly in major sports since then....

 

i posit that sports was the best when one was 11, which would be 1977 for me.

 

the sporcle trivia site is good for testing out your memories

 

the 2nd huge play of that SB was Harrison's pick 6 off Curt Warner for 100 yards as the clock expired in the first half...

 

 

I do remember the pick. I was rooting for Pittsburgh and was watching the clock in the background as knew if he were to get tackled time would expire, not time even for field goal.  Was that the game Hines Ward had a big day or was that in the later SB appearance by Pitt?

[row_33]

34 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I do remember the pick. I was rooting for Pittsburgh and was watching the clock in the background as knew if he were to get tackled time would expire, not time even for field goal.  Was that the game Hines Ward had a big day or was that in the later SB appearance by Pitt?

 

can't help except with those two plays from that game.... 

[BuffaloBills1998]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Coryell and Flores both deserve to be in and should have been in years ago.

I don't think Cowher is deserving but I can live with it if Flores and Coryell were voted in.

I don't think Levy was worthy of HOF either. I was shocked he got voted in so fast. 

As for Johnson I have no idea why it took this long. Only thing I can think of is the committee may have felt he was going to unretire and come back to coach again.

Levy deserved it. Even though we didn’t win a Super Bowl with him, he’s still a big reason of the Bills success in the 90s

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I do remember the pick. I was rooting for Pittsburgh and was watching the clock in the background as knew if he were to get tackled time would expire, not time even for field goal.  Was that the game Hines Ward had a big day or was that in the later SB appearance by Pitt?

Tomlin was HC for that one, not Cowher.

Super Bowl XL was Pitt/ Sea

Cowher/ Holmgren

That's the one I'm referring to.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

My uncle, huge Raiders fan, he likes to go to their hotel when they’re in town v. Buffalo, get some pics and all that fan stuff.

 

Last time they were here him and my cousin were waiting by the elevator, the door opens and Del Rio is the first one out and immediately gives them a dickish brush off “Sorry, no time today”, and my uncle says “Oh we weren’t waiting for you anyways, we’re waiting for three 

time  Superbowl champ Coach Flores”, ha. 

 

Flores stepped out and chatted with them for a good half hour. 

 

That's.  Awesome.

[row_33]

6 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

Tomlin was HC for that one, not Cowher.

Super Bowl XL was Pitt/ Sea

Cowher/ Holmgren

That's the one I'm referring to.

 

never understood the whining about that one

 

i guess the refs ran interference for Parker's great break to the end zone

 

 

 

if i had known how loathsome Seattle would shortly become i would have enjoyed this game a million times more

 

[billsbackto81]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

never understood the whining about that one

 

i guess the refs ran interference for Parker's great break to the end zone

 

 

 

if i had known how loathsome Seattle would shortly become i would have enjoyed this game a million times more

 

I obviously had no horse in that race but I do recall watching it and thinking, Man this game does not smell right. 

 

IIRC, the playoff game against the Colts had a similar odor that year as well. 

 

Seemed like the NFL wanted to send Cowher and Bettis out on a high note.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

......worthy?...perhaps......Plunkett?....hmmm....I believe accomplishments is the qualifier (vs race, creed, color, orientation, etc), but in our PC world, thought that these would get him in, whether right, wrong or indifferent....both did have accomplishments in the NFL..........

 

"Flores was also the first Hispanic starting quarterback and the first minority head coach in professional football history to win a Super Bowl.^"

[row_33]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

I obviously had no horse in that race but I do recall watching it and thinking, Man this game does not smell right. 

 

IIRC, the playoff game against the Colts had a similar odor that year as well. 

 

Seemed like the NFL wanted to send Cowher and Bettis out on a high note.

 

 

always amusing that people scream a game was fixed when their team lost, they then give me the litany of a conspiracy against (pick whatever team)

 

but when THEIR team wins they CONVENIENTLY FORGET their 10 minute rant on how it's all fixed

 

and i make a move to never have to be in the same room as this person ever again, if possible

 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by row_33

[Trogdor]

I wish the Bills could get on the receiving end of a Cowboys Vikings type trade. That really set them up for years.

[The Fiend]

11 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

This is tough as the two winners had fantastic careers, but hard to pass over a coach who won as a player for KC, then as an Assistant to Madden, and then won two in 80 and 83.  Those games weren’t even close.

 

I hope he gets in before he passes as he is 83, and at that age you just hope he can make it.  

 

Yep, and he played for Buffalo in 1967 and 1967:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlorTo00.htm

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, row_33 said:

 

 

always amusing that people scream a game was fixed when their team lost, they then give me the litany of a conspiracy against (pick whatever team)

 

but when THEIR team wins they CONVENIENTLY FORGET their 10 minute rant on how it's all fixed

 

and i make a move to never have to be in the same room as this person ever again, if possible

 

 

Lol? Like I said dude, no horse in the race.

But I'm glad they're still fans out there to protect the integrity of the NFL?

 

But everybody already knows the NFL is on the up and up, right?

 

You're right in one sense though. When and if ever an egregiously bad call favors the Buffalo Bills that results in a championship outcome, I'll smile and walk away as I bite my tongue.