The Athletic - Cover 1's breakdown of the game, more Allen than Daboll. Also adding some C1 & YPP twitter clips

[Luka]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

I agree that Josh deserves credit for the steps he has already taken as a quarterback. What I DON'T like seeing, though, is people putting on blinders and pretending like he's immune from criticism. He has progressed, yes, but he has a long way to go. He currently has the 30th ranked QB rating and 31st ranked completion percentage in the NFL, for instance. He has thrown just 10 TDs throw 9 games, despite playing some of the worst teams in the NFL.

Furthermore, as far as "creating rhythm"...how is an offense supposed to have any rhythm when the quarterback fails to hit open receivers so often? How are we supposed to know what identity the offense WANTS to exhibit when the field general of that offense plays so inconsistently and, at times, poorly? 

I'm not saying it's JUST on Allen. The Bills offense is a combo platter of suck right now. Daboll deserves some blame. I absolutely agree with that. But to say that he deserves the lion's share of the blame or to try to completely absolve Allen of responsibility for how poor the offense is? That's rubbish.

Did you not pay attention at all to the breakdowns and GIFs from the Browns game? Cover 1 already DID show that there were options on some -- not all, it's true, but more than a few -- of the plays in which Allen either took a sack or threw an incompletion. Yes, Daboll can do more to help Allen, but Allen needs to start to learn to help himself. He needs to take more steps toward being a big boy quarterback. It's not all on the OC. Daboll is an easy scapegoat right now, because it's easier to want to fire the OC than it is to admit that the 1st round, prize young QB isn't getting the job done. It's not an either/or proposition. BOTH need to improve. But this "it's all on Daboll!" stuff has gotta stop. It's ridiculous.

 

A couple of individual plays don't tell the whole story, only the one you want to hear.

[Phil The Thrill]

12 minutes ago, Logic said:

If you think Cover 1 has any sort of vendetta against Allen or was pro-Tyrod and looks for ways to bash Allen, you're nuts.

Allen wasn't "bad" on Sunday, you're right. But he also wasn't GOOD ENOUGH to beat the Browns. The Browns packed the box against the Bills, blitzed over 40% of the time, and dared the Bills to beat them through the air, and the Bills couldn't. Josh Allen completed 53.7% of his passes and threw zero touchdowns. That's not good enough against an average to below average Browns defense.

People who exclusively blame Brian Daboll are ignoring the many plays he calls where wide receivers ARE open and Allen can't or won't throw to them. It happens a lot. It happened a lot on Sunday. 

I'm not an Allen hater. I like him and want him to succeed. Just look at my avatar. However, to put all of the blame on Daboll and completely absolve Allen is a chickenshit copout, in my opinion.

Im with you.  The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal.  In this thread fans have blamed:

 

- Daboll for not developing an identity on offense

- The WR’s for not being good enough at their position

- The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well.

 

Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this?

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

So we ignore the talent?

 

The Jets beat the cowboys 

the falcons beat the Saints 

Belichick eats young QBs yet the Ravens won. 
 

crap happens 

 

You forgot the best one... Cleveland beat the beloved Ravens.

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Like cover 1 said it's sort of a leak concept that the rams use alot. Though McKenzie doesn't fake much of a block so it's hard to call it a true leak..  it's a mesh concept with a vertical up seam

 

McKenzie is fast but I wouldn't call him a true deep threat, he struggles tracking balls downfield while maintaining speed and I think the same happens

 

It wasn't a perfect pass and floated a bit outside his shoulder but he also doesn't look like he tracts it great

 

Most NFL deep threats have 5-10 foot catch radiuses. Think Moulds and TO and Green and Julio. They aren't 5'9 Smurfs that need a PERFECT BALL

 

That ball was within a couple steps and I don't think he tracked it perfectly. Imo a true NFL deep threat who can track a ball and might be a bit bigger could come down with that

 

I feel like all of our WRs look for the ball too early on deep balls .. the best guys leave 5-10% in the tank and can kick it into high gear when the ball is in the air

 

Our guys look like they slow down when tracking a ball

 

 

Could it be that our guys sometimes look for the ball early because Allen can and does often get it there so fast?  Kind of like how rookie QBs have to adjust to the speed of the NFL, maybe our receivers are trying to adjust to the quickness the ball gets there.  I think Brown or someone actually commented on it before.

[Jrb1979]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Im with you.  The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal.  In this thread fans have blamed:

 

- Daboll for not developing an identity on offense

- The WR’s for not being good enough at their position

- The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well.

 

Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this?

Cause I think don't want to believe Allen may not be a good QB. They are afraid of having to start over again at QB. 

 

Its great his short game has improved but his reading of a defense hasn't and that should worry people. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Maybe not last week, but yes there was a bomb to either John Brown or Andre Roberts that was close to 20 yards over their head and landed in the endzone in the Washington game.  It was a gross overthrow

 

Allen does do that sometimes as a means of throwing the ball away.  If you call out the specific game and play I'd be happy to take a look at it.

 

But otherwise, I'll agree with those who are saying that merited criticism of Allen would be better substrate to discuss, if exaggeration were less prevalant.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think I said the words suck. He is as inconsistent as Allen and that's why the offense is

 

We haven't developed an identity in 2 years Dabolls been here. He will call 2 good series than 2 bad ones

 

Allen needs consistency in his coaching and gameplanning if he wants to find consistency in his play. 2 way Street

What you mean no identity?  We have one man.... Its "we want to move the ball and score points.  Don't care if its by running or by passing."

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I had a very long SB conversation about this play...this is 100% on McKenzie imo. Allen needs to look the safety off, which he does, but McKenzie is already looking back for the ball before he Allen even goes back to him and lets the ball go. WR is twisting and turning around instead of putting his head down and getting to the spot.

 

RUN. YOUR. ROUTE

 

I agree 100%!  That was a good throw if McKenzie finishes the route.  What NFL receiver keeps looking side to side on a pass like that?  Talk about having "eyes roaming all over the place".  Run the damn route and the ball drops right into his hand. 

 

You know where I've seen WR's routinely do that when running a deep route?  My backyard on Thanksgiving.  That's how bad of a look that was.

 

Allen HAS struggled with the deep ball but I suspect it's not all on Allen. 

[stony]

2 hours ago, Luka said:

Cover 1 is so full of *****. It's Allen's fault that on a 3rd 3 where the Browns are almost definitely going to blitz, his shortest route option is 10 yards down the field? Daboll knows teams are going to blitz Allen yet here we are, still calling the same, long developing passing plays. You know how you mitigate the pass rush? Run the ***** ball. Call screen passes. Make teams think twice about calling that blitz.

I think the FO brought in a bunch of maulers (outside of Morse) to protect Allen.  I don't think mobility is their strength; hence, the reason why we suck at screen passes.    

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Like cover 1 said it's sort of a leak concept that the rams use alot. Though McKenzie doesn't fake much of a block so it's hard to call it a true leak..  it's a mesh concept with a vertical up seam

 

McKenzie is fast but I wouldn't call him a true deep threat, he struggles tracking balls downfield while maintaining speed and I think the same happens

 

It wasn't a perfect pass and floated a bit outside his shoulder but he also doesn't look like he tracts it great

 

Most NFL deep threats have 5-10 foot catch radiuses. Think Moulds and TO and Green and Julio. They aren't 5'9 Smurfs that need a PERFECT BALL

 

That ball was within a couple steps and I don't think he tracked it perfectly. Imo a true NFL deep threat who can track a ball and might be a bit bigger could come down with that

 

I feel like all of our WRs look for the ball too early on deep balls .. the best guys leave 5-10% in the tank and can kick it into high gear when the ball is in the air

 

Our guys look like they slow down when tracking a ball

 

 

Man I'm glad other people are seeing this to.  I thought either I was crazy or looking at Allen's throws through fogged up rose colored glasses.  But you're 100% right here.  On some (yes Allen misses other deep throws) of those deep throws the WR's don't seem to be running the pattern like other NFL wide outs.  Think last week with Foster against the Redskins.

 

 

[Logic]

20 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

A couple of individual plays don't tell the whole story, only the one you want to hear.

On the contrary: watching, say, 7 different plays from one game where receivers are open and Allen isn't hitting them DOES begin to tell a story. The story is "our quarterback needs to improve".

I could just as easily state that IGNORING visual evidence of poor play and fixating only on play-calling doesn't tell the whole story, only the narrative you want to push.

Again: I don't think all the blame is on Allen. I don't think all the blame is on Daboll. BOTH OF THEM aren't performing well. But it certainly is hard to tell how much of Allen's poor performance is due to Daboll calling bad plays, and how much it just APPEARS that Daboll is calling a bad game because the QB can't execute his gameplan. It's really hard to separate these things. It's a complex relationship. And yet, we have plenty of Bills fans who are certain that it's just Daboll that's to blame. It's ridiculous.

[John from Riverside]

30 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Does it really matter if it was overthrown by 5, 10 or 20 yards?  It wasn’t close and our QB is 0-16 on passes of 30 yards or more.  It’s a problem!

So why lie about it?

26 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

C'mon John. "20 yards" is more for effect than anything else - he's basically indicating that the balls aren't catchable. Even you aren't that much of a homer to defend Josh A's deep game this season, right? He's been good in other areas, but him hitting zero deep balls has knock-on effects with regard to how teams defend us and the degree to which they're willing to gamble. 

Do you see me defending Josh Allen's deep throws?  Is that what you took from this?

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

So why lie about it?

I apologize Josh overthrew the WR’s by about 13.3 yards

[John from Riverside]

41 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Come on......

OK...just show me where he has overthrown anyone by 20 yards.   And then go back and re read where I say he is overthrowing deep balls.

 

I will wait

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

I apologize Josh overthrew the WR’s by about 13.3 yards

This is the opitome of crusading.....telling ***** that doesnt actually exist.

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, Luka said:

 

Just like everyone else here, he cherry picks plays to make his point, never addresses anything positive that might show his opinion isn't an absolute. Same childish response you would get here if you refute his point. It's funny because he shows the one play, where Josh has 3 reads to make and he is under considerable pressure almost immediately. He blames Josh but he has no idea what the play call was, what his hot read was. To me it looked like Beasley was his hot read, he sets that way to throw it, has to come off of it and reset and by that time, play is already over.

OK, you might get a few that do this, but you done gone too far here. As one of the "everyone else here" settle down, man. Talk about childish.

[Phil The Thrill]

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

OK, you might get a few that do this, but you done gone too far here. As one of the "everyone else here" settle down, man. Talk about childish.

That’s like saying “he didn’t overthrow him by 20 yards....it was only 7”

[Hermes]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

It's supposed to be an outside shoulder throw, which is why he was looking that way. Allen threw it inside and about 8 yards farther than he should have. Usain Bolt wouldn't have gotten to that one. After 16 failed attempts to deliver a catchable deep ball to the receiver,  the last place I'd look to assign blame is the receiver. 

And yet if he threw a back shoulder throw like you want him to, the DB is on the outside waiting to make a play. If McKenzie be hasn't slowed up those last five yards he might've had a shot. Not saying Allen was even good because he wasn't... Also look to the scramble and throw to the right side of the endzone where McKenzie failed to make a play. I looked at my wife immediately after that play and said a better receiver scores there.. going back to last year we haven't had a WR, TE or RB bail any of our QBs out yet you see spectacular catches every week in this league. How about the catches Gesecki (sp?) made against us or the TD catch Landry had. It helps when you have playmakers to help out instead of role players

[Scott7975]

37 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Im with you.  The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal.  In this thread fans have blamed:

 

- Daboll for not developing an identity on offense

- The WR’s for not being good enough at their position

- The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well.

 

Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this?

 

Well I mean, even the media is asking all the coaches what the identity of this offense is supposed to be.  The answer is "move the ball and score points."  If the coaches come out and pretty much say they don't have an identity then perhaps we shouldn't question fans about it.

[Phil The Thrill]

4 minutes ago, Hermes said:

And yet if he threw a back shoulder throw like you want him to, the DB is on the outside waiting to make a play. If McKenzie be hasn't slowed up those last five yards he might've had a shot. Not saying Allen was even good because he wasn't... Also look to the scramble and throw to the right side of the endzone where McKenzie failed to make a play. I looked at my wife immediately after that play and said a better receiver scores there.. going back to last year we haven't had a WR, TE or RB bail any of our QBs out yet you see spectacular catches every week in this league. How about the catches Gesecki (sp?) made against us or the TD catch Landry had. It helps when you have playmakers to help out instead of role players

I am certain you’ll see the Bills get more playmakers on offense this offseason.  We’ll see how much of a difference it makes.  It’s the old QB vs WR debate we’ve had in Buffalo many times. 

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Well I mean, even the media is asking all the coaches what the identity of this offense is supposed to be.  The answer is "move the ball and score points."  If the coaches come out and pretty much say they don't have an identity then perhaps we shouldn't question fans about it.

I guess....but again, how much of the lack of identity is caused by the limitations of the QB who can’t execute?

Edited November 12, 2019 by Phil The Thrill

[Heitz]

47 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Im with you.  The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal.  In this thread fans have blamed:

 

- Daboll for not developing an identity on offense

- The WR’s for not being good enough at their position

- The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well.

 

Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this?

 

Aren't most saying Allen needs to be better?  

 

And to me, it's a bit the bullets above PLUS the QB having a shi**y game.  Let's hope Josh, the WRs the coaches all learn from this one...

 

 

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I am certain you’ll see the Bills get more playmakers on offense this offseason.  We’ll see how much of a difference it makes.  It’s the old QB vs WR debate we’ve had in Buffalo many times. 

I guess....but again, how much of the lack of identity is caused by the limitations of the QB who can’t execute?

 

That would be anyone's guess.  It kinda goes back, for me, to that guy that was a defensive head coach and when asked what kind of defense he will run the answer was "we are going to be multiple... 4-3, 3-4.... yadda yadda yadda."

 

Another poster put it to words earlier in the thread far better than I will here.... if there is no continuity in what you are trying to do then how are you supposed to get better?  Lets say you suck at playing guitar and you are trying to get better.  You practice guitar today and tomorrow you practice the flute.

 

My thought process is this... Allen has a very long way to go.  That's what happens when you pick up a project QB.  I consider him a project because he didn't play in the awesome of awesome college divisions ( I really know nothing of college football I just know he played in a small time program.)  It's going to be a bigger learning curve for him than another QB that is coming from a big time program who had the best of the best coaching. 

 

Some of those guys coaches are also designing systems, at least in part, around what that QB knows and does well at.  Can you say that about Allen?  Is Dabol's system designed around this QB to help him out?  I don't think so.  I think it's just the system this guy wants to run because he feels its a good system. Be damned who is running it.  Kind of like putting Tyrod in a WCO when clearly that is not what Taylor was good at.  

 

Now maybe his system is freaking great, but even if it is.... people need some patience with this kid. He isn't going to turn into Brady overnight.  Maybe he won't ever turn into a good QB at all, but don't you think it's a little early (you may not be one of these people) to be acting like this kid is a bust?  Maybe in the long run it's better for QB progression to be learning this way as opposed to say how Goff and Jackson are learning.  Time will tell.

 

I just feel like there is more Daboll could be doing to help this kid out in the meantime than he has been. 

[WideNine]

I like these breakdowns, and don't take too much offense. In Daboll's offense the QB has to be able to do a lot of processing of pre-snap reads and select from a lot of option routes to find the open man. 

 

It is a lot to ask from Allen at this point, but they seem determined to have him become an OC on the field and there are going to be growing pains

 

What Cover 1 does well is explain how a play is schemed to be open downfield, and how teams are pressuring with blitz packages.

 

Not sure I am looking for them to get to deep into offensive philosophy, but considering the blitzes, disguised looks, and spies taking away hot reads and outlet options, that is when I run Singletary more than 8 times to slow things down a bit for my young QB.

 

I hope Daboll figures out where Allen is at and finds ways to simplify things a bit...the kid was drinking from the firehose trying to process what the defense was doing and has been told to not make mistakes. That's a tall order at this point.

 

 

 

 

[RichRiderBills]

3 hours ago, Luka said:

Cover 1 is so full of *****. It's Allen's fault that on a 3rd 3 where the Browns are almost definitely going to blitz, his shortest route option is 10 yards down the field? Daboll knows teams are going to blitz Allen yet here we are, still calling the same, long developing passing plays. You know how you mitigate the pass rush? Run the ***** ball. Call screen passes. Make teams think twice about calling that blitz.

I like your take here, but i dont feel cover 1 is full of *****. A lot of good stuff from them.

[CEN-CAL17]

We’ve seen it where Josh can quickly get the ball out he can easily go 9 of 10 right off the bat. It’s the plays that take time to develop, where all his WRs are 15 yards down the field. He has to shift in the pocket and delivers a bad pass.

 

Im sure after watching film you can find open guys, find mistakes. My point is Daboll needs to help Josh get the ball out quicker.

 

Did nobody see that’s how they helped Baker, get the ball into their play makers hands... quick outs, quickly taking what the defense gives you. Vs let’s keep driving the ball 15 yards down field.

[CEN-CAL17]

They made a huge effort to block Garrett. Which is understood. But a few times they went empty backfield and just let dudes rush up the middle. Vs bring Singletary back, or sprint away from Garrett, in which there was Beasley wide open in the flats on a quick out... but the pressure up the middle Allen went to opposite way and threw the ball away.

[Phil The Thrill]

25 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

That would be anyone's guess.  It kinda goes back, for me, to that guy that was a defensive head coach and when asked what kind of defense he will run the answer was "we are going to be multiple... 4-3, 3-4.... yadda yadda yadda."

 

Another poster put it to words earlier in the thread far better than I will here.... if there is no continuity in what you are trying to do then how are you supposed to get better?  Lets say you suck at playing guitar and you are trying to get better.  You practice guitar today and tomorrow you practice the flute.

 

My thought process is this... Allen has a very long way to go.  That's what happens when you pick up a project QB.  I consider him a project because he didn't play in the awesome of awesome college divisions ( I really know nothing of college football I just know he played in a small time program.)  It's going to be a bigger learning curve for him than another QB that is coming from a big time program who had the best of the best coaching. 

 

Some of those guys coaches are also designing systems, at least in part, around what that QB knows and does well at.  Can you say that about Allen?  Is Dabol's system designed around this QB to help him out?  I don't think so.  I think it's just the system this guy wants to run because he feels its a good system. Be damned who is running it.  Kind of like putting Tyrod in a WCO when clearly that is not what Taylor was good at.  

 

Now maybe his system is freaking great, but even if it is.... people need some patience with this kid. He isn't going to turn into Brady overnight.  Maybe he won't ever turn into a good QB at all, but don't you think it's a little early (you may not be one of these people) to be acting like this kid is a bust?  Maybe in the long run it's better for QB progression to be learning this way as opposed to say how Goff and Jackson are learning.  Time will tell.

 

I just feel like there is more Daboll could be doing to help this kid out in the meantime than he has been. 

This is a very fair take.  I think we’ll have to wait to see how the rest of the season plays out.  We just have to wait to see what McDermott thinks.  

[GG]

3 hours ago, Luka said:

 

I didn't cherry pick anything Cover 1 employee. I stated very basic, very obvious things Daboll could be doing to help Josh out and he isn't. Period. That's on overlying theme for the whole season. 

 

Is that because Daboll doesn't call plays where a receiver is usually open and the QB is too slow to recognize coverage or throw the ball?

 

Because that's what's happening in this offense.  

 

You could make an argument that Daboll should dumb down the offense, but what do you think the effect of that would be with a QB who's having a hard time elevating his game?

[CincyBillsFan]

One thing that drives me crazy about threads like this are the posters who throw out Lamar Jackson as if he would make any difference in Buffalo.  To me it's obvious that had we traded down and taken Jackson it would be a complete cluster frack trying to fit him into a conventional NFL offense.  There is ZERO evidence that Buffalo would have done what Baltimore did and redesigned their entire O around a unique QB talent like Jackson.  It's pure fantasy to think they would have.  It's also a fantasy to think that Jackson could thrive in a conventional offense.

 

Baltimore deserves all the praise in the world for thinking out of the box and taking the risk they did.  It's even more impressive in light of the fact that the Ravens were a playoff caliber team when they took this risk.  And it has worked.  Now the question going forward for Baltimore is whether they can sustain this offense.  Can they develop a back-up QB situation that could keep the boat afloat should Jackson get hurt?  It's not like a conventional O where your back-up can be any one of dozens of QB's.  Jackson is unique and WHEN, not IF, the Ravens face a stretch with Jackson out of the lineup what's the plan?

 

In the case of Buffalo and Allen the question going forward is whether or not Allen is the guy.  Allen is a major project and IMO the risk the Bills took in picking Allen was almost as big as the risk the Ravens took with Jackson. And like Baltimore, the Bill's are going  to be rewarded for taking this risk.  Allen is on the right trajectory and is getting better.  We need to stop obsessing over a play here or there and look at the big picture in judging our QB. 

 

If you break Allen's "career" into logical blocks:  1) pre-injury 2018;  2) post injury 2018;  3)  The first 4 games of 2019;  & the 4)  The last 5 games of 2019 you can clearly see the impressive improvement in his game.  By the end of next year, or sooner, we'll be as happy with Allen as Ravens fans are with Jackson.

 

 

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe it's just me, but did anyone else find it a bit odd that Erik (Cover1) quotes Allen taking all the blame and agrees, then gives several back to back examples where Allen made the correct read and a good decision and

    1) the pass hits Knox on the hands and he drops it

    2) Allen delivers a catchable ball to Brown and Denzel Ward punches it out of his hands successfully

etc?

 

I think it's important to note that while Allen was tested by the pressure and missed some throws he could have had, he also did a number of things well - which McDermott acknowledged in his post game presser. 

 

Allen is definitley a work in progress, he has gotten better on the back shoulder throws. The things to look for in the coming weeks is Cleveland took the Cheats* blue print on Allen used it and got similar results (minus the INTs). More teams will use this against him/us - the development of this team and establishing an offensive identity is being able to overcome this to change the blue print.

 

I think Erik actually did a good job in discussing Allen doing well on those 2 points you made. I think what came across was odd while reading it, he did start off that way and then went series by series and had to say what was good, but it just didn't tie together well with his preceding statements. I ignored the style and just focused on the points on the plays and watched the plays to see if i saw what he saw and if I had the same or different thoughts....

 

Being later in the day now and seeing Joe B's All-22 review, you see 3 different people critiquing the same/similar things. It's okay to be critical of Josh when it's warranted and discuss it

Edited November 13, 2019 by Reed83HOF

[Reed83HOF]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

McKenzie is just not a complete WR.  They are trying to push him into that role because until/unless he poses a threat on other routes, he's become a "tell" that the Bills will be running some kind of Jet sweep type play.  To his credit, he made a nice reception on a slant pass in the Redskins game.

 

But why the Bills keep trying to use guys as deep ball receivers who just ARE NOT (I'm talking about you, Zay Jones and Cole Beasley, and now McKensie too) I do not know

Lack of confidence or underdeveloped skills (most likely) with the other WRs. IIRC I saw one of the issues with Foster is his inability to track the ball in the air. McKenzie running looking behind him and turning his head side to side certainly slowed him down. So in this game, it is likely due to him not saving enough gas to go get it. 

[Reed83HOF]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It is the coaches job to create an identity on their side of the ball

 

My instead of was pointing out that we haven't had an identity or consistent gameplanning

 

Josh needs to clean up lots of stuff but he also needs consistent gameplanning and an offensive identity to build around

 

I am not absolving Daboll, but the players do have to execute as well. Like most everything, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The identity that let's say McD and Daboll want is being held up with 9 new players starting on offense, waiting for additional seasoning/development on some players and the development while they are learning is not linear - so it limits what you can call. You also just can't simply call your bread and butter plays all the time - once those get taken away you have nothing at all. Drafting Allen with his skill set, leads me to believe they want to be a passing offense with some smart runs with a dynamic back mixed in. the execution and growth from the players is not there yet and that ties Daboll's hands. If we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with penalties and misreads and missed blocks and the ball is moving, this entire thread and conversation doesn't exist.

 

I will also add in, most playcallers in the NFL have a tendency to make bone headed changes in what is working within the game and completely stall their team out, McVay does it, Shanny does it, it happens all the time...

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I am not absolving Daboll, but the players do have to execute as well. Like most everything, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The identity that let's say McD and Daboll want is being held up with 9 new players starting on offense, waiting for additional seasoning/development on some players and the development while they are learning is not linear - so it limits what you can call. You also just can't simply call your bread and butter plays all the time - once those get taken away you have nothing at all. Drafting Allen with his skill set, leads me to believe they want to be a passing offense with some smart runs with a dynamic back mixed in. the execution and growth from the players is not there yet and that ties Daboll's hands. If we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with penalties and misreads and missed blocks and the ball is moving, this entire thread and conversation doesn't exist.

 

I will also add in, most playcallers in the NFL have a tendency to make bone headed changes in what is working within the game and completely stall their team out, McVay does it, Shanny does it, it happens all the time...

Of course and it seems that 2-3 times a game our execution on a first down play results in a big penalty. Whether it's a hold on a good run or on a good pass it holds us back

 

And keeps us out of Rhythm

 

I don't put the blame fully on Daboll because it isn't but he definitely devises some strange gameplans where he seems to out think himself, and others where he is a step ahead

[Reed83HOF]

4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Well said, my man.  I’ve stated many times that I like Josh, but I also get frustrated by the whole “fire the coordinator” mindset of some Bills fans.   I get that people want to defend Allen because so many in the media constantly criticize him. 

It just seems like people want to #blameDaboll because they don’t to face the unpleasant reality that, the critics might be right.  At this point, we just don’t know.  
 

At this point in the year, do you honestly think that firing Daboll and replacing him with Ken Dorsey or Chad Hall or whoever else is on the staff will make a difference?  I am certain it won’t.  
 

As for next season, I would still bet on Daboll staying.  I think they want as much consistency for Allen as possible and I also think that McDermott is in no danger of getting fired.   Since he’s not desperate I can see him not making a move.  
 

But then again, he voiced that the offense needs to “score more point,” and statement like that reminded me of what he said about Dennison in the season before he fired him.  So who knows.  
 

 

 

All this is, is the 100% development of Josh Allen as a QB. You start off with what you excel at and it eventually is game planned away, much like Josh's rushes this year.

 

 

NE created a blue print on not only Josh, but on our WRs/TEs/OL/RBs as well. Steve Wilks and Cleveland used some of the same concepts and as a QB (and a team) we have yet to be able to overcome them. Once (If) we do, something else will eventually get schemed up and stop us and the further growth and development of Josh Allen, his teammates will then be able to establish an identity and have many ways to beat you - just not there yet. We may not get there with this current group and Allen might not make it either - it is what it is - development of an offense.

 

You might catch a jolt for a game or 2, but you will end up stuck again in the same place....

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Of course and it seems that 2-3 times a game our execution on a first down play results in a big penalty. Whether it's a hold on a good run or on a good pass it holds us back

 

And keeps us out of Rhythm

 

I don't put the blame fully on Daboll because it isn't but he definitely devises some strange gameplans where he seems to out think himself, and others where he is a step ahead

Thankfully the penalties have been cleaned up since the Rex and before days. Nothing irritates me more than the pre-snap penalties on offense; inexcusable IMO. Holding 9and PI) can be so subjectively called or ignored - I feel like it comes down to luck and relationships with the officials; it's f-ing stupid...

[Reed83HOF]

3 hours ago, stony said:

I think the FO brought in a bunch of maulers (outside of Morse) to protect Allen.  I don't think mobility is their strength; hence, the reason why we suck at screen passes.    

Teams know Allen is a flight risk to run, so teams are keyed in on that, they use a spy and we haven't developed enough plays we are capable of hitting on offense to get the D to play honest and open it back up for us.

[jrober38]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

QBs don't develop overnight or in 2 games... It's a steady development over years and if you are angry about where Josh is in his development, idk what to tell you because he's way ahead of where I thought he'd be

 

 

 

This was true 20+ years ago.

 

It's not really true anymore.

 

If you don't show you can play really well within 2 years, there's next to no track record of QBs going on to having successful careers as franchise guys over the past 10-15 years. 

[Reed83HOF]

8 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

This was true 20+ years ago.

 

It's not really true anymore.

 

If you don't show you can play really well within 2 years, there's next to no track record of QBs going on to having successful careers as franchise guys over the past 10-15 years. 

See Brees & Alex Smith (that's it though)

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

This was true 20+ years ago.

 

It's not really true anymore.

 

If you don't show you can play really well within 2 years, there's next to no track record of QBs going on to having successful careers as franchise guys over the past 10-15 years. 

How long are you willing to go back? Even Rodgers sat the bench for 3 full seasons and he definitely benefited because he needed it

[jrober38]

 

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

See Brees & Alex Smith (that's it though)

 

Plus Eli Manning. You can make a case for Matt Stafford but he got hurt his second year even though he started that season well.

 

Those four names are the only ones that really apply. Three of which were #1 overall picks. 

[Questionable]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

On the contrary: watching, say, 7 different plays from one game where receivers are open and Allen isn't hitting them DOES begin to tell a story. The story is "our quarterback needs to improve".

I could just as easily state that IGNORING visual evidence of poor play and fixating only on play-calling doesn't tell the whole story, only the narrative you want to push.

Again: I don't think all the blame is on Allen. I don't think all the blame is on Daboll. BOTH OF THEM aren't performing well. But it certainly is hard to tell how much of Allen's poor performance is due to Daboll calling bad plays, and how much it just APPEARS that Daboll is calling a bad game because the QB can't execute his gameplan. It's really hard to separate these things. It's a complex relationship. And yet, we have plenty of Bills fans who are certain that it's just Daboll that's to blame. It's ridiculous.

This may help clear it up. 

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

 

Plus Eli Manning. You can make a case for Matt Stafford but he got hurt his second year even though he started that season well.

 

Those four names are the only ones that really apply. Three of which were #1 overall picks. 

Most significant growth does appear between years 1 and 2 as starters; the exceptions are limited to very, very few (IIRC years 3 to 4 were the growth years - Brees & Smith). Allen may very well be one of these exceptions based on his time in Wyoming and a case could be made his big jump is actually this upcoming season. In any event, he definitely gets through the end of next season and we should have a very good idea who he is by then.

[jrober38]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

Most significant growth does appear between years 1 and 2 as starters; the exceptions are limited to very, very few (IIRC years 3 to 4 were the growth years - Brees & Smith). Allen may very well be one of these exceptions based on his time in Wyoming and a case could be made his big jump is actually this upcoming season. In any event, he definitely gets through the end of next season and we should have a very good idea who he is by then.

 

I think we know who he is now. People don't want to hear it but that's how I feel.

 

Way more often than not that bonus year to tack those final nails into the coffin are just a waste of time that results in everyone getting fired and the QB getting cut or traded at the end of it.