When is Allen going to have "that game", and do you care?

[BillsfanAZ]

I dont care about stats. I want to see wins and I want to see the Bills put away some teams early in the 4th. We are getting the wins but they are uneasy feelings almost the whole game.  The offense still needs a couple more pieces before we see dominant performances. We also need the offense to stop taking so many penalties and dropping passes. Allen needs to fix his long ball because it is ugly. 

[zonabb]

Classic thread of excuses and blind homerism. I want this kid to succeed. But he leaves a lot to be desired. The problem on this board is no one wants to consider context. They want to view Allen in a vacuum, ignoring all other QBs and examples as they make excuse after excuse and say "next week" or blame play calling. Play calling is based on the OC, HC and Allen's input so they are plays he needs to execute. He's troublingly indecisive. He had multiple plays today he made where he waited and waited to throw a ball when he should have done so immediately and instead wanted the WR "more open" than he was. His deep ball is atrocious. He's regressed there and teams shouldn't even worry about being beaten over the top. 

 

I like the better completion percentage. I like the leadership. I like the attitude. The mental side of the game is where he's bad.

And the context issue that everyone here misses is hilarious. Watch other younger QBs, the great ones were great from the get go. No one rises slowly and becomes an All-Pro or Super Bowl winner. The rise is immediate and meteoric. This is a slow burn.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Process said:

That game where he shows he is able to light up a defense with his arm? Where it looks like he can be a true franchise QB? Where he shows that even though he will make mistakes as young qb, he is capable of going up against a guy like Rodgers or Brees or Mahomes and keep up with them in a shootout? I'm talking about a game with 300+ yards and 3+ TDs....

 

Right now wins are all that matters. But I do care and I do want to see it, because to be able to compete in the playoffs we are going to need a QB that can win and take over a game with his arm. 

 

Baker Mayfield had a 4TD game last year and has had several games with 300+ passing yards

Daniel Jones had 300+ yards in his first career start

Kyle Murray, a rookie on one of the worst teams in the NFL, has 3 300+ yard games in the first half of the year

Lamar Jackson went for 300+ and 5TDs against the Dolphins

 

Most thought this would be the week but it wasn't, so when? Next week is an even better opportunity. The Eagles have the worst secondary in the NFL, they get lit up every single week. They also have one of the best run defenses, which should force us to throw the ball. If Allen can't put up numbers against them it's hard to see when it will happen. 

He already had it week 17 of 2018 where he put up 5 TDs and embarrassed the Dolphins.  

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, zonabb said:

Classic thread of excuses and blind homerism. I want this kid to succeed. But he leaves a lot to be desired. The problem on this board is no one wants to consider context. They want to view Allen in a vacuum, ignoring all other QBs and examples as they make excuse after excuse and say "next week" or blame play calling. Play calling is based on the OC, HC and Allen's input so they are plays he needs to execute. He's troublingly indecisive. He had multiple plays today he made where he waited and waited to throw a ball when he should have done so immediately and instead wanted the WR "more open" than he was. His deep ball is atrocious. He's regressed there and teams shouldn't even worry about being beaten over the top. 

 

I like the better completion percentage. I like the leadership. I like the attitude. The mental side of the game is where he's bad.

And the context issue that everyone here misses is hilarious. Watch other younger QBs, the great ones were great from the get go. No one rises slowly and becomes an All-Pro or Super Bowl winner. The rise is immediate and meteoric. This is a slow burn.

There is so much wrong with this bolder text right here that I don’t even know if it’s worth discussing.

 

Have some Young QBs had immediate success?  Yes.  BUT:  Plenty started with struggles, mediocre stats, etc before growing into the position and dominant players.  And few have had as many clutch drives as Josh has. 
 

Ever hear of Drew Brees?  How about Kurt Warner? How about Ben Roethlisberger?  How about Steve Young?  How about Peyton Manning?  I mean I could go on and on, but I don’t think it’s really necessary.  This bolded comment was utterly absurd.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[BringBackOrton]

23 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

1 Playoff victory tho too

Its all about the W’s and the scoreboard from what I’ve heard. Tebow > Allen till Josh wins a playoff game.

[DuckyBoys]

1 hour ago, billsfan714 said:

Ouch

give it a rest  Tebow had one game above 200 yards in a season

[Boatdrinks]

Yeah, I’d love for Josh Allen to pass for 300+ yards and move the offense at will with his arm. If it hasn’t happened by the time they have to pick up his fifth year option it will be concerning. Until then, I’ll be satisfied if he just QBs them to wins. 

[Bookie Man]

He may or may not hit 300 this year. But it's encouraging to see his ypg and comp % go up, while cutting down on the bad plays. I think in year 3, he will continue to build upon his improvements and will hit 300 three or four times at least. But it could be next week, if he can hit on one or two of those deep balls.

[BringBackOrton]

Allen absolutely needs “that game” to happen because QB’s who don’t have “that game” end up almost always sucking.

 

And I’m not talking statistics. I don’t care about 298 yards or 300 yards. I care about a great game, start to finish. Good decisions that lead to freak INT’s are still good decisions. Allen need to have a game that says, “we can hang with or beat anybody if he plays like this.” Every QB worth a damn has had a game like that. If Allen never has tha game, his chances of being franchise are zero.

[Big Blitz]

It happened last year vs Jacksonville and Jalen Ramsey and that defense.

 

Behind our offensive line and number 1 WR Robert Foster. 

 

Or maybe it was the Vikings game last year?  The one where he was leaping over guys.  

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Allen absolutely needs “that game” to happen because QB’s who don’t have “that game” end up almost always sucking.

 

And I’m not talking statistics. I don’t care about 298 yards or 300 yards. I care about a great game, start to finish. Good decisions that lead to freak INT’s are still good decisions. Allen need to have a game that says, “we can hang with or beat anybody if he plays like this.” Every QB worth a damn has had a game like that. If Allen never has tha game, his chances of being franchise are zero.

Well yeah, never is a long time. Allen will not be given until never to do this ( barring an unbelievable winning %). He will be gone long before that, but it’s still too soon and no long term decision is imminent by the Bills FO. 

[BringBackOrton]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Well yeah, never is a long time. Allen will not be given until never to do this ( barring an unbelievable winning %). He will be gone long before that, but it’s still too soon and no long term decision is imminent by the Bills FO. 

I would say most QB’s who turn out to be good have that game by the end of year two.

[Bangarang]

46 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Since you ask.  Tebow’s best year (2nd with Den): 46.5% completions, 6.3 ypa, 123.5 ypg passing.  Completion % and ypg not sufficient QBing

7-4 as a starter with 5 4th quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives that year. That’s all that matters apparently. I wonder why he was switched to a TE the next year and is now playing baseball in the minor leagues. Ugly or not, all he did was win as a QB!

Edited October 21, 2019 by Bangarang

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

I would say most QB’s who turn out to be good have that game by the end of year two.

Interesting. I’m going to bet that the Bills don’t make a long term decision on Allen by then. Probably 5th year option at minimum unless things really go south. 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, Process said:

That game where he shows he is able to light up a defense with his arm? Where it looks like he can be a true franchise QB? Where he shows that even though he will make mistakes as young qb, he is capable of going up against a guy like Rodgers or Brees or Mahomes and keep up with them in a shootout? I'm talking about a game with 300+ yards and 3+ TDs....

 

Right now wins are all that matters. But I do care and I do want to see it, because to be able to compete in the playoffs we are going to need a QB that can win and take over a game with his arm. 

 

Baker Mayfield had a 4TD game last year and has had several games with 300+ passing yards

Daniel Jones had 300+ yards in his first career start

Kyle Murray, a rookie on one of the worst teams in the NFL, has 3 300+ yard games in the first half of the year

Lamar Jackson went for 300+ and 5TDs against the Dolphins

 

Most thought this would be the week but it wasn't, so when? Next week is an even better opportunity. The Eagles have the worst secondary in the NFL, they get lit up every single week. They also have one of the best run defenses, which should force us to throw the ball. If Allen can't put up numbers against them it's hard to see when it will happen. 

JA will have his breakout game when he learns how to connect on the deep ball...

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Helpmenow said:

The bills play calling makes me wonder sometimes if he can ever develop

 

Allen missing open receivers makes me wonder if he will ever develop

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Interesting. I’m going to bet that the Bills don’t make a long term decision on Allen by then. Probably 5th year option at minimum unless things really go south. 

If Allen isn’t good enough to get a monster extension by his 4th year then I really hope we start looking at a replacement. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Bangarang

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

If Allen isn’t good enough to get a monster extension by his 4th year then I really hope we start looking at a replacement. 

That’s a realistic possibility. Although, a look around the league would probably say it’s not likely. How many ( first round) guys get an extension before playing on their 5th year option ? 

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Interesting. I’m going to bet that the Bills don’t make a long term decision on Allen by then. Probably 5th year option at minimum unless things really go south. 

We pulled the plug on EJ long before then. 

 

If the plan is to gear up a great team with a good QB on a cheap rookie deal, waiting until year 5 isn’t an option.

[Doc Brown]

26 minutes ago, zonabb said:

Classic thread of excuses and blind homerism. I want this kid to succeed. But he leaves a lot to be desired. The problem on this board is no one wants to consider context. They want to view Allen in a vacuum, ignoring all other QBs and examples as they make excuse after excuse and say "next week" or blame play calling. Play calling is based on the OC, HC and Allen's input so they are plays he needs to execute. He's troublingly indecisive. He had multiple plays today he made where he waited and waited to throw a ball when he should have done so immediately and instead wanted the WR "more open" than he was. His deep ball is atrocious. He's regressed there and teams shouldn't even worry about being beaten over the top. 

 

I like the better completion percentage. I like the leadership. I like the attitude. The mental side of the game is where he's bad.

And the context issue that everyone here misses is hilarious. Watch other younger QBs, the great ones were great from the get go. No one rises slowly and becomes an All-Pro or Super Bowl winner. The rise is immediate and meteoric. This is a slow burn.

I don't disagree with most of this but my optimistic side hopes he is developing like another raw prospect with elite arm strength.  Notice the bump in stats after his first two seasons.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

That’s a realistic possibility. Although, a look around the league would probably say it’s not likely. How many ( first round) guys get an extension before playing on their 5th year option ? 

Goff. Wentz. Luck. 

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

We pulled the plug on EJ long before then. 

 

If the plan is to gear up a great team with a good QB on a cheap rookie deal, waiting until year 5 isn’t an option.

Sure, but can you blame them ? He couldn’t throw like an NFL QB. I think what you described is the plan, but things would have to be pretty bad for them to pull the plug. It could get there, but it’s not trending in that direction. At some point though, cap room will get used up etc etc. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

7-4 as a starter with 5 4th quarter comebacks and 5 game winning drives that year. That’s all that matters apparently. I wonder why he was switched to a TE the next year and is now playing baseball in the minor leagues. Ugly or not, all he did was win as a QB!

 

Please stop with it.  No one is saying it’s all that matters, but comparing Allen’s play as a QB and Tebow’s is a stunningly bad take.

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Sure, but can you blame them ? He couldn’t throw like an NFL QB. I think what you described is the plan, but things would have to be pretty bad for them to pull the plug. It could get there, but it’s not trending in that direction. At some point though, cap room will get used up etc etc. 

How many good QBs drafted in the first round have not proven they are worth an extension long before their fifth year?

[Virgil]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Goff. Wentz. Luck. 

Hell, Mahomes will pry get one before his 4th season 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Please stop with it.  No one is saying it’s all that matters, but comparing Allen’s play as a QB and Tebow’s is a stunningly bad take.

If you read the other thread, it’s quite literally been said by multiple posters.

[JoPar_v2]

Watson will as well.

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Goff. Wentz. Luck. 

Just those 3? Obviously Luck should have. Goff ? Lots of issues in his game right now. Wentz ? Might have been better off with Foles. Anyway, I don’t know how many first round guys did and did not get that deal at that point, haven’t looked it up. Pretty sure quite a few have not. If the Bills end up in the Conference championship or even in the Super Bowl you do it then. If not, you wait apparently. That’s what it seems like. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

That's primarily on the coaching staff not Allen.

The coaching staff doesn’t tell him to not throw it to open receivers. He had Beasley wide open earlier in the game for at the very least a huge gain and most likely a td and threw it elsewhere. John brown open for a first down and threw it short to a covered Knox. Duke running open for a big gain but threw it to brown who still got a decent gain but a decent throw to duke should have been 6. 

 

He’s shown that he can make each of these throws but there’s sometimes where he just refuses to do it and I have no idea why. He made them all later in the game with no issue.  

Edited October 21, 2019 by Not at the table Karlos

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

If you read the other thread, it’s quite literally been said by multiple posters.

 

You, for one of them.  As I said stunningly bad take.

[Livinginthepast]

Trent Dilfer won a SB. I would take a SB win with mediocre QBing and a great D like Baltimore had. That being said its aggravating to watch Josh overthrow wide open guys week in and week out. Today he Overthrew Brown by almost 10 yards and he had plenty of time to throw. He needs to be work more on his touch until that problem is gone!

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, Virgil said:

Hell, Mahomes will pry get one before his 4th season 

All time best in his first 25 games. Pretty good bet there. 

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Just those 3? Obviously Luck should have. Goff ? Lots of issues in his game right now. Wentz ? Might have been better off with Foles. Anyway, I don’t know how many first round guys did and did not get that deal at that point, haven’t looked it up. Pretty sure quite a few have not. If the Bills end up in the Conference championship or even in the Super Bowl you do it then. If not, you wait apparently. That’s what it seems like. 

Yeah the ones who didn’t get that deal SUCKED. Mariota (lost his job to Tannehill). Winston (SUCKS). Manziel (SUCKS.) Paxton Lynch (SUCKS). Bridgewater knee exploded and (SUCKS). 

 

Is that your argument? Allen is like those dudes?

Edited October 21, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[longtimebillsfan]

My feeling is that when Allen was drafted, he was considered raw and would take a couple of years to be ready to start.  He has progressed faster than expected, but he is still developing.  We are 5-1 this year.  Allen has been great in the 2nd half of games.  He has 5 game winning drives.  Yes he still makes mistakes.  But Allen is a leader of men and has the intangibles that can not be coached.

 

Allen is improving in accuracy and decision making.   He misses open receivers too often, but I believe that will improve.  

 

We should take a breath and enjoy how far this team has come in 2+ years.  

 

Our future is bright.

Edited October 21, 2019 by longtimebillsfan

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You, for one of them.  As I said stunningly bad take.

Scoreboard.

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

That’s a realistic possibility. Although, a look around the league would probably say it’s not likely. How many ( first round) guys get an extension before playing on their 5th year option ? 

when was the last time a 1st round QB got their 5th year option picked up and then got the monster contract? I can’t think of one.

 

If a 1st round QB is good enough to get the big pay then it’s probably going to happen before their 4th year.

 

Carr, Wentz, Goff, Newton being examples.

 

Do you think the Titans are still trying to figure out if they’re going to write a blank check to Mariota?

 

[MR8]

He's not "there yet" in his development... He was a massive project coming in, and people need to remember that. His flashes early have made people think he's more advanced in his maturation process than his is.... 

 

Smart development of this kid means limiting his mistakes and not asking too much. His potential is the next Aaron Rodgers but his downside is the next JP Losman.... He may or may not be great but you can't rush his "that game" emergence.... Because he's not ready until he's ready.... If he ever is.   But if he gets there, holy hell can he be good.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

when was the last time a 1st round QB got their 5th year option picked up and then got the monster contract? I can’t think of one.

 

If a 1st round QB is good enough to get the big pay then it’s probably going to happen before their 4th year.

 

Carr, Wentz, Goff, Newton being examples.

 

Do you think the Titans are still trying to figure out if they’re going to write a blank check to Mariota?

 

Every good QB gets an extension before their fifth year. The bad ones do not. This does not bode well for, “he has until the fifth year option to prove himself.” The league data supports that we’ll know who he is by then.

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Yeah the ones who didn’t get that deal SUCKED. Mariota (lost his job to Tannehill). Winston (SUCKS). Manziel (SUCKS.) Paxton Lynch (SUCKS). Bridgewater (SUCKS). 

 

Is that your argument? Allen is like those dudes?

I’d have moved on sooner than each of their teams did, except Bridgewater. He’s pretty good and it was an injury situation.  Not arguing anything except that if the Bills are winning, they’re unlikely to get rid of Allen after year 2. Does that make sense?  

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

when was the last time a 1st round QB got their 5th year option picked up and then got the monster contract? I can’t think of one.

 

If a 1st round QB is good enough to get the big pay then it’s probably going to happen before their 4th year.

 

Carr, Wentz, Goff, Newton being examples.

 

Do you think the Titans are still trying to figure out if they’re going to write a blank check to Mariota?

 

I think that ship sailed on Mariota awhile ago or it should have anyway. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

I’d have moved on sooner than each of their teams did, except Bridgewater. He’s pretty good and it was an injury situation.  Not arguing anything except that if the Bills are winning, they’re unlikely to get rid of Allen after year 2. Does that make sense?  

Teams that are winning generally don’t move on from their QB’s. Bad to mediocre QBs generally have their fifth year options. Good QB’s get extended long before then. 

 

We kept EJ for 4 years. Allen won’t be outright cut. I wouldn’t be surprised if some Allen competition was brought in unless he vastly improves. In fact, at this point, I’m praying that we draft a QB decently high next year.