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Phil The Thrill

2016 NFL Draft Grades: Shaq Lawson Is Graded at a D+

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11 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Yep. Look at the respective AVs for Buckner and Shaq:

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LawsSh00.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BuckDe00.htm

 

@GunnerBill- Lawson had 8 qb hits in his first two seasons and Buckner had 40. That's a huge disparity.

 

Whoa. I was never comparing Shaq to Buckner. Shaq is graded about right. Buckner's grade for me is too high. The two things are entirely independent of each other. I would give Buckner a B maybe a B-. He has been a lot better than Shaq and I never sought to argue differently. I just don't think he is an A grade unless I am only grading 2018. 

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33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Whoa. I was never comparing Shaq to Buckner. Shaq is graded about right. Buckner's grade for me is too high. The two things are entirely independent of each other. I would give Buckner a B maybe a B-. He has been a lot better than Shaq and I never sought to argue differently. I just don't think he is an A grade unless I am only grading 2018. 

 

 

I think dave is pointing out that there is a lot bigger divide between the two than you appear to acknowledge.

 

You are basically saying Bucker is a 79-80 grade and Shaq is a 69-70 grade..............they aren't that close to this point.............Buckner checks a lot of boxes that Shaq has not.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think dave is pointing out that there is a lot bigger divide between the two than you appear to acknowledge.

 

You are basically saying Bucker is a 79-80 grade and Shaq is a 69-70 grade..............they aren't that close to this point.............Buckner checks a lot of boxes that Shaq has not.

 

I don't know about what D+ normally means in American education grading systems but it certainly doesn't mean 69-70 under any English grading systems. It means 45. 

 

Where I am from a B is about 75. So that is the reality of where I am actually putting them. 

Edited by GunnerBill

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Posted (edited)

I think posters here are confusing a draft grade on a particular draft selection with a grade on how well a player performs compared to their peers.

 

It is not just a player's performance compared to their peers.

 

It is look back at how others who were also available at the slot he was drafted at, and a comparison of how well they also performed at their position.

 

It also is affected by what the expectations of the team and the fans were when he was drafted. And how well he met them.

 

It also depends on how high the player was drafted. And any other draft capital expended by his team to draft him when they did.

 

He is a solid player at his position. He is about average when just taking his actual performance on the field. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a solid, average player in the NFL. The NFL is the best of the best.

 

It is expectations and comparisons that he has no control over or don't reflect directly on him that affect the draft grade. It is more of a hindsight judgment and grade on the management of the team that drafted him, not on his own performance or ability.

 

Edited by simpleman

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4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't know about what D+ normally means in American education grading systems but it certainly doesn't mean 69-70 under any English grading systems. It means 45. 

 

Where I am from a B is about 75. So that is the reality of where I am actually putting them. 

D+ in american grading is basically 68 percent. B is an 85, and A is 95.

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4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

D+ in american grading is basically 68 percent. B is an 85, and A is 95.

 

Well that is where the misunderstanding comes from then. That is not how we do it this side of the pond. 

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21 hours ago, Protocal69 said:

No another Rex Ryan Gem

Yup.  Whaley should have put his foot down more with Rex.  He had the number 2 defense in the nfl and Rex ruined it.  Rex was in love with Clemson.

 

and Lawson is better than a D+.  He is an average NFL DE.  He is this generation’s Chris Kelsey. Super disappointing for that high of a pick but it could have been much worse. 

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup.  Whaley should have put his foot down more with Rex.  He had the number 2 defense in the nfl and Rex ruined it.  Rex was in love with Clemson.

 

and Lawson is better than a D+.  He is an average NFL DE.  He is this generation’s Chris Kelsey. Super disappointing for that high of a pick but it could have been much worse. 

He's a D+ because you really should expect a lot more from a top 20 pick. The grade is correct. If you're a drafting a guy in the first round who plays like an earlier fourth rounder, you deserve a bad grade.

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On 8/14/2019 at 6:42 PM, Bobby Hooks said:

You made his point for him. If we NEEDED a great receiver so badly we should have taken that in the first. 

 

Or signed, or traded for one. You dont expect a 2nd round receiver to be THE guy. 

You do expect a WR drafted in any round to be able to catch the ball.

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:37 PM, Doc Brown said:

Fair grade.  I expected more from a first round DE.  It's amusing to me that this board in general is more harsh on Zay Jones (a 2nd round pick) than Shaq Lawson.

Jones only has the speed and route running prowess to occasionally get separation from only some of the league's defensive backs, some of the time.  That's his issue.  He doesn't get open very well.

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His grade overall is a C. He's an average DE. He could be better, but like so many Bills did under Rex, he didn't work hard enough.

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8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't know about what D+ normally means in American education grading systems but it certainly doesn't mean 69-70 under any English grading systems. It means 45. 

 

Where I am from a B is about 75. So that is the reality of where I am actually putting them. 

 

 

Yeah that clears it up........the author is using US grading context.

 

Usually if you produce sub 60% test scores.....sometimes even sub 65%....... in the US they don't bother differentiating beneath that..........you just get an F.

 

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:25 PM, Joe in Winslow said:

Another Whaley gem

I blame Rex.

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah that clears it up........the author is using US grading context.

 

Usually if you produce sub 60% test scores.....sometimes even sub 65%....... in the US they don't bother differentiating beneath that..........you just get an F.

 

 

So in the UK the grade ranges are wider but below a C is generally considered a fail. Although with our A levels (so your pre-University exam) they use grading curves. So 68% one year might be an A and another year that might be a C because there are percentages allocated to each band. It's complicated. 

 

But yea, I think there absolutely is a clear discrepancy between Shaq and Buckner. But I think there is also a bit of clear water between Buckner and someone like Jalen Ramsey or Joey Bosa or Zeke and that is what I was objecting to. Him getting the same grade as those guys. On 2018 alone, sure you can make an argument for that, but on his first two years alone, no chance. 

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There are far worse players than Lawson.  D+ is not accurate for his level of play. It's not even that fair for his draft status. He is a C+ player. B- in run game. 

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On 8/14/2019 at 9:40 PM, Bobby Hooks said:

Fair point. 

 

It's harder to see Lawson play bad than it is Jones who is out there dropping crucial passes all over the place.

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7 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yup.  Whaley should have put his foot down more with Rex.  He had the number 2 defense in the nfl and Rex ruined it.  Rex was in love with Clemson.

 

and Lawson is better than a D+.  He is an average NFL DE.  He is this generation’s Chris Kelsey. Super disappointing for that high of a pick but it could have been much worse. 

 

What GM allows the coach to make the selections for him?  The bad pick is on

Whaley

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22 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Goff deserves an A even if you think he's solely the product of McVay's system and choked in the Superbowl.  The last two years Goff threw for a combined 60 TD's and 19 INT's with a 63.5% completion percentage and a QB rating of 100.5 while making the pro bowl each year.  

 

Buckner I agree with as he's more of a B/B+ grade with his breakout year coming last year.

 

I'm not trying to rip on Goff, I just think a B+ is more realistic, or maybe an A-.

 

Same for Carson Wentz, despite the injuries, he deserves at least an A-. Ryan Kelly deserves more than a C.

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17 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

There are far worse players than Lawson.  D+ is not accurate for his level of play. It's not even that fair for his draft status. He is a C+ player. B- in run game. 

 

He may be a B- against the run but he gives you very little pass rush.  I’d be more inclined to a C-

Just now, Mark Vader said:

I'm not trying to rip on Goff, I just think a B+ is more realistic, or maybe an A-.

 

Same for Carson Wentz, despite the injuries, he deserves at least an A-. Ryan Kelly deserves more than a C.

 

I would not give Goff an A.  B+ is more appropriate.  Especially how he shat the bed in the NFC Championship and Super Bowl.  

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the 2016 draft was awful for the Bills, just went back over their selections...terrible.  I don't think that anyone is even on the team three years later other than Shaq

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