Is football accuracy like shooting free throws?

[Tcali]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

In the NBA, you hear about the ridiculous practice routines some of the greats have.  I think Kobe wouldn’t start warm-ups until he hit like 500 free throws.  In any case, the muscle memory or whatever is a pledged method for success in the NBA. 

 

In the NFL, I usually here about coaches working on players footwork or release point to affect accuracy.  

 

My question is this, what players have been know to increase their accuracy over the years and what did they do?   For some of the greats that I remember early in their career like Brady and Ben, they started them in a more controlled offense where they’d throw to one read while averaging around 150 yards per game. Simple throws, low turnovers, basic.   Then, over time, things expanded and it almost felt like confidence is how they grew them.  

 

It’s just an interest concept to me, teaching accuracy.  So many of these guys have been throwing the football since they were 5 years old and now we want them to take a step forward in their early 20’s.  It’s happened, I’m just curious for stories that made it happen. 

no...But with allen there is some hope because sometimes he is accurate.

10 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

Whether it's Basketball 3-pointers, or Golf shots, slapshots or even throwing darts, I believe that accuracy can be improved with proper technique and practice, but for an NFL QB, that will only help to a certain point.  The problem an NFL QB faces is that literally every throw is a totally different set of circumstances, and you can't "muscle memory" every single throw you'll ever need to make.

 

Can a QB become more accurate?  YES.  But if you're not starting from a point of good or better, you;re not going to become great or GOAT through technique and reps.

and probably the more you practice the worse you will become--start thinking too much etc

[Buddo]

6 minutes ago, wiskibreth said:

Whether it's Basketball 3-pointers, or Golf shots, slapshots or even throwing darts, I believe that accuracy can be improved with proper technique and practice, but for an NFL QB, that will only help to a certain point.  The problem an NFL QB faces is that literally every throw is a totally different set of circumstances, and you can't "muscle memory" every single throw you'll ever need to make.

 

Can a QB become more accurate?  YES.  But if you're not starting from a point of good or better, you;re not going to become great or GOAT through technique and reps.

 

While every throw has (largely) a different set of circumstances and requirements that surround it, getting experience will count for a lot. More experience = more instances of similar sets of circumstances, which leads to better placement/accuracy. It's why 'live' reps are so important, imho.

 

Tbh, I don't think that Allen is an innately innaccurate thrower, if anything, I think he's actually very accurate. The problem being that he's accurate when he gets himself properly set, which is often not the case under game situations. Again, live reps and footwork, will go a long way to sorting it out.

 

One thing I will say about Allen, is that I see signs that he's working on things, even when they might not come off. An example of this would be the bomb to Foster. I thought he took some off of that throw, because he didn't think Foster would get there. He just didn't get it quite right.

 

Imho, we are likely to spend quite a few years wrangling over Allen's numbers. Last week it was only 8 from 19, which looks horrible, except you have drops, catches that get pulled back for penalties, none of which are being accounted for in the stats. This week you have the Hail Mary interception, that will skew his numbers, and yet I don't think anyone actually blames him for that, yet they will still put it into an anti argument.

 

Apologies for falling into the trap of making this about Allen, but the first part is still relevant, imho, to any QB.

[wiskibreth]

27 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

has a QB honestly reset his throwing abilities after signing an NFL contract?

 

I'm sure they did their best with Tebow, and it just ain't shaking out.

 

 

 

Well, it's not a ton, but here's a some...  And like I said...  you can only take the improvement so far with continued experience and practice.

 

Mathew Stafford:  Roughly 60% comp early, roughly 66% of late

Ryan Tannehill:  <60% early, 66 lately

Alex Smith <60% early, 67 last two seasons (before injury).

Drew Brees, yeah, he's always been very good, but even he took his comp % from 65% up to a now godly 70+%

 

even Pyton Manning went from 62 up to 68% in his prime years.

 

Yeah, I know there's allot more to accuracy than completion %, but I don't have a historical database of QB over time, and what exactly led to their accuracy improvement, but it does suggest that improvement is possible.

5 minutes ago, Buddo said:

 

While every throw has (largely) a different set of circumstances and requirements that surround it, getting experience will count for a lot. More experience = more instances of similar sets of circumstances, which leads to better placement/accuracy. It's why 'live' reps are so important, imho.

 

Tbh, I don't think that Allen is an innately innaccurate thrower, if anything, I think he's actually very accurate. The problem being that he's accurate when he gets himself properly set, which is often not the case under game situations. Again, live reps and footwork, will go a long way to sorting it out.

 

One thing I will say about Allen, is that I see signs that he's working on things, even when they might not come off. An example of this would be the bomb to Foster. I thought he took some off of that throw, because he didn't think Foster would get there. He just didn't get it quite right.

 

Imho, we are likely to spend quite a few years wrangling over Allen's numbers. Last week it was only 8 from 19, which looks horrible, except you have drops, catches that get pulled back for penalties, none of which are being accounted for in the stats. This week you have the Hail Mary interception, that will skew his numbers, and yet I don't think anyone actually blames him for that, yet they will still put it into an anti argument.

 

Apologies for falling into the trap of making this about Allen, but the first part is still relevant, imho, to any QB.

 

No argument from me.  I do believe he can get better given time, experience and reps, but lets not start believing he's going to be Drew Brees in a couple seasons.

Edited December 3, 2018 by wiskibreth

[keepthefaith]

Anyone that is 22 years old should be able to improve with training and practice any athletic activity (except for maybe female gymnasts who seem to peak at younger ages). 

[buffaloboyinATL]

I would equate free throws with field goals. The “routine” and the repeatable mechanics  matter more. General passing is closer to taking a shot in hoops. 

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

IMO, this issue about his accuracy has become so overblown...

But it isn’t.  He literally has never been like a 55% passer his whole career.  It matters whether you think so or not.  Those 5 passes missed can be the difference between Ws and Ls.  

 

In todays nfl, if you aren’t a 60% passer, you aren’t a starting level qb.  Allen is a Rookie on a bad offense so he gets pass.  But it needs to get better. 

[Dr.Sack]

Shooting is about touch & hand eye coordination. Passing is all those things coupled with timing, velocity & the X-Factor the WRs ability to catch. The rim is a stationary object. An accurate QB needs quick muscle twitch as much as brute arm strength. 

[oldmanfan]

People confuse the concept of accuracy with that of precision.  The classic example of this is throwing darts at a dartboard.  Let's say you aim at the bulls eye and keep hitting the inner 10 ring.  Hit it the same spot every time.  You're very, very precise but you're not accurate.  Now, let's say you didn't hit the bulls eye but you surround it pretty closely with all your darts.  Now you're very accurate, but not precise.

 

When people critique accuracy they really are critiquing precision.  Can you stick the ball exactly in the same spot every time?  I think there are very few QB that are incredibly precise.  Most good ones are really accurate; the ball is always within the receiver's catch radius.  And ideally of course you want high precision AND high accuracy.  But that's very rare.

 

Now, can you teach accuracy?  Obviously yes or guys like Brady wouldn't go back to his coaches and work on drills every off season.  Muscle memory helps in any athletic endeavor, whether it be throwing a football or baseball, kicking a soccer ball, golf swing, shooting free throws.  As a QB it may take more as you would have to maintain that with large humans gunning for you, but it certainly can be worked on and improved

35 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But it isn’t.  He literally has never been like a 55% passer his whole career.  It matters whether you think so or not.  Those 5 passes missed can be the difference between Ws and Ls.  

 

In todays nfl, if you aren’t a 60% passer, you aren’t a starting level qb.  Allen is a Rookie on a bad offense so he gets pass.  But it needs to get better. 

Math is not your strong suit.  Let's say you throw 30 passes in a game.  Complete 18 and it's 60%.  Know what 55% is?  Completing 16.5 passes.  Or 1.5 passes less a game.

 

So let's say you have everyone covered and throw one out of bounds so you don't take a sack.  Or your WR drops one or runs a bad route.  There's your difference between this supposed magical 60% vs.  55% completion percentage.  And it has absolutely nothing, as in zero, to do with accuracy.

[Mr. WEO]

The rim doesn't jump or dive after the thrower's crappy throw.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

From what was written prior to the draft and in camp and pre-season Allan was much more accurate.  So if yo'u're going to argue that you can't teach accuracy, how was he more accurate in the offseason?   

 

Then the regular season starts and less accurate. What happened, likely panic tended to set in and he forgot everything he worked on off-season.  As he plays and practices more as they say, "The game will slow down for him", at that point when he has time to think whats going on back there, maybe what he worked on off-season will also come back to him.  He may not become Drew Brees type accurate, but with all his other talents, more than capably QB.

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, Virgil said:

In the NBA, you hear about the ridiculous practice routines some of the greats have.  I think Kobe wouldn’t start warm-ups until he hit like 500 free throws.  In any case, the muscle memory or whatever is a pledged method for success in the NBA. 

 

In the NFL, I usually here about coaches working on players footwork or release point to affect accuracy.  

 

My question is this, what players have been know to increase their accuracy over the years and what did they do?   For some of the greats that I remember early in their career like Brady and Ben, they started them in a more controlled offense where they’d throw to one read while averaging around 150 yards per game. Simple throws, low turnovers, basic.   Then, over time, things expanded and it almost felt like confidence is how they grew them.  

 

It’s just an interest concept to me, teaching accuracy.  So many of these guys have been throwing the football since they were 5 years old and now we want them to take a step forward in their early 20’s.  It’s happened, I’m just curious for stories that made it happen. 

 

Accuracy is such a tough one to discuss on a fan level. So many layers...

 

is the read correct? Ie did both he and receiver forecast the defender the same AND correctly to pick a place to connect. If either get it wrong - a great threw looks erratic easily. He could perfectly hit the dinner plate he targets 40 yards away and get called inaccurate simply by aiming at the wrong plate for instance. 

 

Did he expect the wr to be a step slower or did the ball slip a tiny bit?

 

did he misread wind?

 

then you get into footwork, release, arm strength (many of fitzs bad throws were a case of arm strength as much as “accuracy”), trajectory/touch and so on. 

 

Right now he’s got to learn a little of all of it (minus the arm strength... )

Edited December 4, 2018 by NoSaint

[Mojo44]

4 hours ago, Virgil said:

In the NBA, you hear about the ridiculous practice routines some of the greats have.  I think Kobe wouldn’t start warm-ups until he hit like 500 free throws.  In any case, the muscle memory or whatever is a pledged method for success in the NBA. 

 

In the NFL, I usually here about coaches working on players footwork or release point to affect accuracy.  

 

My question is this, what players have been know to increase their accuracy over the years and what did they do?   For some of the greats that I remember early in their career like Brady and Ben, they started them in a more controlled offense where they’d throw to one read while averaging around 150 yards per game. Simple throws, low turnovers, basic.   Then, over time, things expanded and it almost felt like confidence is how they grew them.  

 

It’s just an interest concept to me, teaching accuracy.  So many of these guys have been throwing the football since they were 5 years old and now we want them to take a step forward in their early 20’s.  It’s happened, I’m just curious for stories that made it happen. 

 Just saying here regarding this controversial issue. My research indicates that passing accuracy specifically from the pocket is absolutely a trainable psycho motor skill. It’s predominantly a matter of footwork and poise i.e., concentration. It seems to be a total myth that accuracy from the pocket cannot be taught and improved. And, in that respect,   I have a fair amount of confidence that Josh can do this because he is intelligent and he is a hard worker. I believe he has started to show this already.  My research also indicates that passing accuracy while on the move is not particularly trainable and is an inherent skill.However, I would encourage my fellow posters to do their own research on this and post their  takes or opinions.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

People confuse the concept of accuracy with that of precision.  The classic example of this is throwing darts at a dartboard.  Let's say you aim at the bulls eye and keep hitting the inner 10 ring.  Hit it the same spot every time.  You're very, very precise but you're not accurate.  Now, let's say you didn't hit the bulls eye but you surround it pretty closely with all your darts.  Now you're very accurate, but not precise.

 

When people critique accuracy they really are critiquing precision.  Can you stick the ball exactly in the same spot every time?  I think there are very few QB that are incredibly precise.  Most good ones are really accurate; the ball is always within the receiver's catch radius.  And ideally of course you want high precision AND high accuracy.  But that's very rare.

 

Now, can you teach accuracy?  Obviously yes or guys like Brady wouldn't go back to his coaches and work on drills every off season.  Muscle memory helps in any athletic endeavor, whether it be throwing a football or baseball, kicking a soccer ball, golf swing, shooting free throws.  As a QB it may take more as you would have to maintain that with large humans gunning for you, but it certainly can be worked on and improved

Math is not your strong suit.  Let's say you throw 30 passes in a game.  Complete 18 and it's 60%.  Know what 55% is?  Completing 16.5 passes.  Or 1.5 passes less a game.

 

So let's say you have everyone covered and throw one out of bounds so you don't take a sack.  Or your WR drops one or runs a bad route.  There's your difference between this supposed magical 60% vs.  55% completion percentage.  And it has absolutely nothing, as in zero, to do with accuracy.

Good post and spot on. People take such simplistic approach to this. If you don’t hit the magical 60% then, clearly, you are an inaccurate passer. So much to every single throw.

[Bill_with_it]

Anything can be improved with practice. From kicking fgs, hitting golf balls, hitting baseballs, etc to a point where its maximized.  Allen isnt there yet, hes nowhere near the wart thats being portrayed by the group that paimts the bulletriddled argument. He can improve and already has. If you cant see that then maybe find a different sport to partake, or practice on understanding what you are seeing.

[Virgil]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Good post and spot on. People take such simplistic approach to this. If you don’t hit the magical 60% then, clearly, you are an inaccurate passer. So much to every single throw.

 

I think you can’t dismiss it like that because so many elite QB’s find a way to do it.  Yes, Brady is a mirage of short passes, but not all do that.  

 

That argument could go both ways to me 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

Good post and spot on. People take such simplistic approach to this. If you don’t hit the magical 60% then, clearly, you are an inaccurate passer. So much to every single throw.

 

To be fair, 60% isn’t some magical threshold but it’s typically helpful in success as it’s a pretty low mark. 

 

60% flat would be 30th in the league. Even 65% only gets you to 25th.

 

 

[Shortchaz]

A quarterback’s accuracy can be talked about two ways, and they are often conflated. The two ways are

·         Ability to place the ball exactly where they want it

·         Ability to understand exactly where the ball should be placed

There is no easy way to measure the quarterback’s ability to do both.

This is such a nuanced and complicated subject; a text book could be written about it.

[bills11]

6 hours ago, Virgil said:

In the NBA, you hear about the ridiculous practice routines some of the greats have.  I think Kobe wouldn’t start warm-ups until he hit like 500 free throws.  In any case, the muscle memory or whatever is a pledged method for success in the NBA. 

 

In the NFL, I usually here about coaches working on players footwork or release point to affect accuracy.  

 

My question is this, what players have been know to increase their accuracy over the years and what did they do?   For some of the greats that I remember early in their career like Brady and Ben, they started them in a more controlled offense where they’d throw to one read while averaging around 150 yards per game. Simple throws, low turnovers, basic.   Then, over time, things expanded and it almost felt like confidence is how they grew them.  

 

It’s just an interest concept to me, teaching accuracy.  So many of these guys have been throwing the football since they were 5 years old and now we want them to take a step forward in their early 20’s.  It’s happened, I’m just curious for stories that made it happen. 

Accuracy is part mechanics and technique part natural talent..you can't teach a guy who throws the ball wildly innacurate like ej Manuel to throw with pinpoint accuracy because his base natural mechanics preclude him from being that way ...if you want a basketball analogy ..throwing is more akin to a jumpshot...every team employs shooting coaches and players have experts available to tweak their shot etc..but you can't teach DeMar DeRozan to shoot threes like Stephen curry that's where the natural ability part comes in. Allen has relatively good base mechanics but they still don't hold up properly under duress..Allen will never be as accurate as drew Brees but he can definitely reach his " ceiling" as far as being accurate .

[billsfan1959]

8 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

To be fair, 60% isn’t some magical threshold but it’s typically helpful in success as it’s a pretty low mark. 

 

60% flat would be 30th in the league. Even 65% only gets you to 25th.

 

 

Not arguing with you there. However, completion percentage doesn't, in and of itself, provide a complete assessment of accuracy. When I look at Allen, both at Wyoming and with the Bills, I do not see his accuracy as an issue that will prevent him from becoming a franchise caliber QB. I see a QB that is always looking to push the ball downfield (at the top of the league in length of pass per attempt), who throws a lot of passes into tight windows, who throws a lot of passes while moving to extend plays, all while playing with limited talent on the OL and at the offensive skill positions.

 

It is just my opinion; but, I think Allen's style of play, rather than ability, is likely to keep him in the sub 60% completion range (much like Cam Newton, who has spent much of his career in that range).  I know this much: After watching Allen the last two games, I didn't walk away thinking, "I wish he was a more accurate passer." I walked away thinking that I loved his willingness to attempt the kind of throws I have been waiting for from our QBs since Kelly. I also walked away thinking this rookie QB just threw 5 or 6 passes that only a handful of quarterbacks could ever make. Again, just my opinion.

[Bing Bong]

accuracy is like sinking 3 point shots off the dribble. Ya can't be a PG and have no ability to do it. but .350 plus is very nice arsenal to have in addition to arm power.

 

That overthrow to Robert Foster was a 40% chance play JA hits it at this point in his career IMO. You take that shot all day given the reward vs probability.. not horrible, but it would be nice if he had a higher % there.

Edited December 4, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks