Is Vander Eshe to Edmunds the same as Juju to Zay

[BuffaloBillyG]

LVE and Jaylon Smith are an incredible young LB duo. Much like I see Milano and Edmunds being going forward. Difference is you will hear a LOT more about LVE and JS because they play for Dallas. 

 

It does, however get a bit frustrating in my opinion that Buffalo always seems to draft the guy that "needs time" and isn't an instant gratification. 

[snamsnoops]

5 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

This man is fantastic, looks like the real deal.  

 

The Saints dynamic running game wanted no parts of Vander Eshe 

 

Another unnecessary trade up from Beane ? 

 lil premature with this. Both seem to be playing well for rookies. Edmunds is 19 20 and Esche is 22.. 

 

I think they both will be good ones, but with being rookies and Edmunds so young. It is way way to early for this.... Maybe in like 3 years or so!

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by snamsnoops

[Bing Bong]

25 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

You guys want AJ Hawk or Brian Urlacher? 

He's young so he certainly has a high ceiling. But so did Barkevious Mingo. Not that Edmunds has outplayed Mingo by far.. but he's not even close to Urlacher's jock strap. Athleticism doesn't help you have perfect tackling form and game speed like LVE has shown immediately diagnosing plays to Kamara and swallowing the most elusive runner up allll game. That was an amazing performance Edmunds has not shown the ability to do.

 

He is very young.. he is calling signals (I don't get why that's such a big deal for his instinctual play vs LVE).. LVE likely has a better supporting class. But in a vacuum. LVE is still better. And he's already a great AJ Hawk type, like he can't improve and Edmunds can? He was a phenomenal pick by the Cowboys. I'm not rueing not getting him.. I mean many "anaylsts" criticized the LVE pick and praised Edmunds at the time. I just appreciate watching him help lock down the best offense in the league looking like anything but a rookie. Edmunds looks like a rookie and shows flashes and sky is the limit. But that's never a given, I'd take a Tre White rookie year over a rookie guy that COULD BE Darrrelle Revis. 

 

Edmunds has a long way to go to be HOF Urlacher. LVE is if not better than AJ Hawk already! That defense is fun to watch! 

 

Didn't we take Lawson over Myles Jack and Jaylon Smith.. oof! The cowboys have crushed us at drafting seems at the same position behind ours too. That defense is going to take them places.

16 minutes ago, No Place To Hyde said:

It does, however get a bit frustrating in my opinion that Buffalo always seems to draft the guy that "needs time" and isn't an instant gratification. 

And we post a million excuses for stunted development until we run somebody out of town 3 years later gleefully.

 

I'll simply ask: how nice would it be to get Tre White caliber rookie years instead of praying for projects needing time?

 

And I was hoping Edmunds would do it in his, but geez 19?? He absolutely has every reason to need time. When he's 23 I'll have my mind made up. I'm sure he has a Rolando McClain floor and an Urlacher ceiling.. so I love the floor to ceiling. And it will be a while before he shows where he is between that range.

Edited November 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Logic]

Leighton Vander Esch was 22 on draft day.

Tremaine Edmunds was 19.

I'm not taking anything away from LVE. He looks great. Tremaine hasn't been a slouch, either. Just in the Jags game alone, he tipped a ball in a key moment, allowing Poyer to intercept it. It's not as if he hasn't been making plays, too.

Let's just see after two or three years, who has turned out to be the best pick. Judging this matter 12 games in -- especially when one of the guys just turned 20 years old -- is silly.

[Bing Bong]

21 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

 

He's got the range because he can diagnose the reads and plays like the offense is playing in slow motion! Game speed. High IQ. And of course.. he's extremely athletic we saw it last night!

Edited November 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[wppete]

Not even close. Edmunds is going to be a star in this league.

[blacklabel]

These hindsight posts are getting ridiculous. Just because another player in the same draft had a good game doesn't mean the player your team picked is all of a sudden unworthy of the draft slot he was selected in. Vander Esch made a few flash plays last night. Edmunds has had his own share of big plays as well. Edmunds is still also only 20 years old and handling a ton of responsibilities on defense already. He's only gonna get better. He has the higher ceiling and more athletic talent. Both guys are probably going to be good, solid players for the next 10 years in this league.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, blacklabel said:

These hindsight posts are getting ridiculous. Just because another player in the same draft had a good game doesn't mean the player your team picked is all of a sudden unworthy of the draft slot he was selected in. Vander Esch made a few flash plays last night. Edmunds has had his own share of big plays as well. Edmunds is still also only 20 years old and handling a ton of responsibilities on defense already. He's only gonna get better. He has the higher ceiling and more athletic talent. Both guys are probably going to be good, solid players for the next 10 years in this league.

 

We hope that Edmunds gets better and he may very well do just that, but there's no guarantee.  Just ask the Texans regarding Amobi Okoye who was very young when he came into the league with the 10th overall pick. 

[Doc]

30 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

 

 

LVE's responsibility was the RB, he was unblocked, and he made the tackle both times.  Not sure what that video was supposed to prove, other than Smith should have been flagged for helmet-to-helmet.

[blacklabel]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

We hope that Edmunds gets better and he may very well do just that, but there's no guarantee.  Just ask the Texans regarding Amobi Okoye who was very young when he came into the league with the 10th overall pick. 

 

That can be said about any player, that there's no guarantee, no sure bets, etc. It applies to all players. Edmunds may have different responsibilities than Vander Esch at this point as well, who knows? We don't, cause we ain't at practice and we ain't in the huddle. 

 

And I think Edmunds will get better because of the skills he already has and the situation he is in. McDermott knows how to coach up LBs and DBs. They probably haven't quite thrown everything at him just yet but by the end of the season I'm sure they'll be saying there wasn't a lot that they didn't assign to him. Edmunds has the work ethic to go along with the athletic talent as well. Some guys come into the league and figure they can coast on athleticism alone and don't bother to do their homework. That's not Edmunds. He'll be fine. Vander Esch will probably be fine as well. Both guys look like they're poised to have nice careers.

Edited November 30, 2018 by blacklabel

[Bill_with_it]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

This man is fantastic, looks like the real deal.  

 

The Saints dynamic running game wanted no parts of Vander Eshe 

 

Another unnecessary trade up from Beane ? 

Yeah lets discount the whole they have Smith on their team to; the orher instinctual freak of nature. The answer is no.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Yeah, I think Edmunds is wayyyy better.  

 

His ability to get side line to side line is unmatched. The effect that has against opposing offenses is huge.  I mean, we are the #2 defense in the league.   

 

Also, lots of guys rack up tackles.  See Preston Brown.  That doesn't make them game changing linebackers. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

LVE's responsibility was the RB, he was unblocked, and he made the tackle both times.  Not sure what that video was supposed to prove, other than Smith should have been flagged for helmet-to-helmet.

yeah that video doesn't show much. But I do like the play at the end, there was no indecisiveness and he had an awareness to time his attach when the free center began flailing looking for block. I doubt there's a "LVE Saints game every play compilation video" but if you saw the game last night and the Eagles before that. He simply has that instinct to follow the play and shed blockers as he does it.

 

And he's not unathletic by any means. Maybe he doesn't quite have the "range" Edmunds does, but how much range do you need? He diagnoses plays fast enough at the NFL level to be at the right place right time and is athletic enough to execute it. He hit consistently the game's most elusive runner in the flats, the power runner up the middle.. for little YAC or YPC. I haven't seen him miss a tackle last two games and I've seen him STOP the RB from falling forward rather than pulilng the ole Pozluszny "make a tackle piggy backing the ball carrier up another 4 yards."

[aceman_16]

3 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

This man is fantastic, looks like the real deal.  

 

The Saints dynamic running game wanted no parts of Vander Eshe 

 

Another unnecessary trade up from Beane ? 

No...Edmund's is better.

[BillsFan4]

The Bills are betting on Edmunds higher ceiling. 

 

It isn’t about just this season. It’s about next year and the years that follow. 

 

Edmunds has a ridiculously high ceiling, and the Bills have one of the better (IMO) LB coaches in the NFL, plus a head coach who has shown an ability to develop LBs. 

They are betting on this coaching staff being able to develop Edmunds into the player he has the potential to become. 

 

I like that the Bills didn’t just make the safe(er) pick. This regime wants greatness and they are willing to take some risks to achieve it. 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

The Bills are betting on Edmunds higher ceiling. 

 

It isn’t about just this season. It’s about next year and the years that follow. 

 

Edmunds has a ridiculously high ceiling, and the Bills have one of the better (IMO) LB coaches in the NFL, plus a head coach who has shown an ability to develop LBs. 

They are betting on this coaching staff being able to develop Edmunds into the player he has the potential to become. 

 

I like that the Bills didn’t just make the safe(er) pick. This regime wants greatness and they are willing to take some risks to achieve it. 

 

 

Even this season he has been really good.  Just his length and range alone, and how they have affected the passing game, have been huge.  Lots of guys rack up tackles.  That doesn't mean they have the longevity to be a game changer long term. 

[DCOrange]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Edmunds flashes a few times each game, especially in pass d where LVE really doesn’t have that kind of range.

 

Zay doesn’t flash - he’s getting more consistent and his blocking is becoming a strength but he’s low ceiling.

 

I think LVE is significantly better in coverage right now. In fact, I think that's one of Edmunds' weaknesses at the moment.

 

FWIW, LVE is ranked as the 3rd best linebacker in the league in pass coverage per PFF. Edmunds ranks 74th out of 82.

[Teddy KGB]

3 minutes ago, aceman_16 said:

No...Edmund's is better.

 

That would be a false statement as of today.  

 

VDE ranked top 6 

 

T Edmunds ranked top 71 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I think it is totally different actually. At draft time I felt Zay was a safer choice than JuJu who is explosive but was a bit raw in some of his fundamentals - route running etc.

 

With Edmunds I actually felt like both he and VDE were a little raw but that Edmunds was the higher ceiling guy. Sometimes when you take that explosive, athletic freak it take a while for their fundamentals to catch up. I think that is where the Bills are with Edmunds. It is a different position than with Zay.

 

 

Juju and Edmunds were both 20 years old to start their rookie seasons.

 

Zay is almost 2 years older than Juju..........and like Edmunds he was raised by a stud NFL father..............and yet they have been grossly outplayed by a WR 2 years his junior and a dude at LB who is in just his 4th season of playing 11 man football,  respectively.

 

Point is.........you are what you prove you are on the football field.

 

Edmunds could get better........or not..........his age doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his much slower career start than LVE.    

 

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Even this season he has been really good.  Just his length and range alone, and how they have affected the passing game, have been huge.  Lots of guys rack up tackles.  That doesn't mean they have the longevity to be a game changer long term. 

 

Not the case. He's been inconsistent in both the run game and pass coverage with good games and bad.

[Bing Bong]

8 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Even this season he has been really good.  Just his length and range alone, and how they have affected the passing game, have been huge.  Lots of guys rack up tackles.  That doesn't mean they have the longevity to be a game changer long term. 

we're not talking about him "racking up tackles".. Edumnds and him have just as much. He's tackling WELL. For losses.. stopping the carrier rather than letting him fall forward. Essentially the little things that basically make a running game not work since typical 4 yard rushes turn into 2 or 1. And he's excellent at stopping the screen as well.

 

He's also playing his best football when the Cowboys have started making their desperation run through a tough NFC schedule and are on quite a win streak with no margin for error. He's stepping up big time for a playoff push.

 

Plays excellent in coverage too.

Edited November 30, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, DCOrange said:

 

I think LVE is significantly better in coverage right now. In fact, I think that's one of Edmunds' weaknesses at the moment.

 

FWIW, LVE is ranked as the 3rd best linebacker in the league in pass coverage per PFF. Edmunds ranks 74th out of 82.

 

 

Definitely.

 

Edmunds has been torched in coverage most of the year.

 

Those false steps kill him. 

 

His speed has helped him make some tackles, usually after the damage has been done(though he had a great stop on dump off to stop a RB from getting a first down versus Jax)...............but those downfield tackles in place of PD's will get old if it keeps happening in year 2.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Edmunds is real good and he should be for a long time. Not concerned. I actually think the best thing this regime has done, is draft. Especially defense. Maybe they should use their FA money on offense and draft defense. It’s very possible these guys either won’t identify the correct college players on offense or even more likely that they just won’t develop the Offensive players. Let them just bring in professionals on offense and teach the defense. They are doing a good job with that.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Brianmoorman4jesus

[C.Biscuit97]

Personally, I wish people would be consistent. We’re all Bills fans and want the best for this team. But one of the weakest points of the Whaley regime was trade ups.

 

Basically, it rarely works out when you trade up.  Even though Allen was not the qb I wanted, they get a pass because it’s a qb.  And I really like Edmunds but he has to be an all pro type player to justify the trade up with how VE and Leonard of the colts are playing.  It’s the same thing with Trading up with Zay and JuJu and Cooper Kupp.

 

dear future Bills GMs (hopefully I’ll talking to myself  ), trading up will probably look stupid one day so don’t do it.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Not the case. He's been inconsistent in both the run game and pass coverage with good games and bad.

 

Even his bad games are really good.  I realize this is going to dissolve into a simple difference of opinion, so its sort of pointless to argue over it.... but we have the #2 defense in the league.  He is at the heart of that defense.  He does things most LB cant, such as tipping passes or getting his hands in throwing lanes, or simply using his size and length to ward off interior passes.  So many things that don't get pointed out and are not accounted for by PFF.  He does miss the occasional assignment, but even the average veteran LB does.  For a rookie, he has been really good.  For an NFL LB he has been at least average, if not a little above average. 

[C.Biscuit97]

16 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yeah, I think Edmunds is wayyyy better.  

 

His ability to get side line to side line is unmatched. The effect that has against opposing offenses is huge.  I mean, we are the #2 defense in the league.   

 

Also, lots of guys rack up tackles.  See Preston Brown.  That doesn't make them game changing linebackers. 

I really like Edmunds but your homer side is coming out when you say wayyy better. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

we're not talking about him "racking up tackles".. Edumnds and him have just as much. He's tackling WELL. For losses.. stopping the carrier rather than letting him fall forward. Essentially the little things that basically make a running game not work since typical 4 yard rushes turn into 2 or 1. And he's excellent at stopping the screen as well.

 

He's also playing his best football when the Cowboys have started making their desperation run through a tough NFC schedule and are on quite a win streak with no margin for error. He's stepping up big time for a playoff push.

 

Yeah, but Edmunds does so many of those things as well.  Not to mention his presence in the middle of the field deters so much of the middle of the field passing game. 

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

I really like Edmunds but your homer side is coming out when you say wayyy better. 

 

I can admit "wayyy" better was too strong...

[BillsCuse]

Leighton was pick #19, so we would have had to trade up for him also.  

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Even his bad games are really good.  I realize this is going to dissolve into a simple difference of opinion, so its sort of pointless to argue over it.... but we have the #2 defense in the league.  He is at the heart of that defense.  He does things most LB cant, such as tipping passes or getting his hands in throwing lanes, or simply using his size and length to ward off interior passes.  So many things that don't get pointed out and are not accounted for by PFF.  He does miss the occasional assignment, but even the average veteran LB does.  For a rookie, he has been really good.  For an NFL LB he has been at least average, if not a little above average. 

 

It's not a matter of opinion. He has missed assignments, been fooled on plays or been slow on recognition, and taken bad angles. Both he and his coaches have talked at length about this and having the #2 defense doesn't refute the point.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It's not a matter of opinion. He has missed assignments, been fooled on plays or been slow on recognition, and taken bad angles. Both he and his coaches have talked at length about this and having the #2 defense doesn't refute the point.

 

For a guy who's profile says "offer more insight with less incite" you do a lot of inciting.  

 

Players and coaches always talk about "always getting better."  Thats coach talk.  The point is that you cannot have the #2 defense in the league if your starting MLB (who takes almost every snap aside from the game(s?) he missed) is not good.  I think that is a fair argument to make. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Juju and Edmunds were both 20 years old to start their rookie seasons.

 

Zay is almost 2 years older than Juju..........and like Edmunds he was raised by a stud NFL father..............and yet they have been grossly outplayed by a WR 2 years his junior and a dude at LB who is in just his 4th season of playing 11 man football,  respectively.

 

Point is.........you are what you prove you are on the football field.

 

Edmunds could get better........or not..........his age doesn't necessarily have anything to do with his much slower career start than LVE.    

 

 

 

 

Can always count on BADOL for a "bills picked the wrong guy" take.

 

It's like death and taxes.

 

Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

For a guy who's profile says "offer more insight with less incite" you do a lot of inciting.  

 

He's not referring to HIMSELF with that ditty. He's referring to anyone who responds to him.

 

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

For a guy who's profile says "offer more insight with less incite" you do a lot of inciting.  

 

Players and coaches always talk about "always getting better."  Thats coach talk.  The point is that you cannot have the #2 defense in the league if your starting MLB (who takes almost every snap aside from the game(s?) he missed) is not good.  I think that is a fair argument to make. 

 

If you call disagreeing with a football opinion by discussion or pointing out facts inciting then you certainly don't understand the difference between insight and incite.  Good day.

Edited November 30, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[bigK14094]

2 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

Edmunds was always a potential pick. He's not near his ceiling.  Way too early to judge.  As for Zay, who says he can't improve more going into his third year?  Both are talented and still developing.  

VDE is a true run plugging MLB....and his stats show it.  Edmunds is not a run plugging lb.....perhaps he will develope.....but he is long and rangy...and may be an outside lb if he can't get the run stopping skill into his way of playing.  (thinking he might be another Ted Hendricks, then)  We will see.....being young and having a lot to learn is understandable, but not sure we are not commenting on the difference in style of play.  One will likely never be the other in terms of results.  So, what is the role McD wants Edmunds to play....maybe he drafted Edmunds to be the rangy coverage guy, and is counting on the line to stop the run.

In terms of Zay Jones, he was a head case his first year, forgot how to catch the ball.  This year, he is at least catching the ball....year 3 will tell us if he can be a good route runner and contribute 60 catches 800 yards.  If he doesn't do it in year 3......adious Amigo!!!

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Yeah, but Edmunds does so many of those things as well.  Not to mention his presence in the middle of the field deters so much of the middle of the field passing game. 

I mean you're absolutely right. And it's hard to take the season as a whole between LVE v Saints yesterday.. and Edmunds v Jags last week (I did NOT like his performance).

 

It's very fresh on my mind so I obviously have recency bias. I've seen Edmunds be a great tackler. But he was doing the Pozlusny tackling style on Fournette last week. Was frustrating me to no end seeing him wrap up and take a ride for another 3 yards.

 

But he doesn't normally play like that, makes amazing tackes, and LVE just played the best game of his career last night. So we're all speaking from recency bias to some degree.

 

I'm not one to bank on ceiling vs. safe guys when they're all NFL rookies. 90% of the time, a rookie that outperforms another rookie in the first year in his class is going to do that every year of his career. Wouldn't it be nice to have Tre White caliber rookie seasons.. and not have Zay prayer threads running 2 years long that a rookie will improve?

 

Granted Edmunds is a special case here in that he's played so so little football in his life and is already a starting caliber NFL MLB at his age. But outside of that Edmunds exception (ya don't see that kinda inexperience often.. he's like an NBA high school to pro player, could be Kobe), my general 20/20 hindsight opinion is always.. "that rookie did better at the position than the other rookie that year. He's on the same learning curve and picked it up faster and will always be a step ahead"

[GG]

14 minutes ago, BillsCuse said:

Leighton was pick #19, so we would have had to trade up for him also.  

 

Stop with the facts, will yah?  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

10 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

If you call disagreeing with a football opinion by discussion or pointing out facts inciting then you certainly don't understand the difference between insight and incite.  Good day.

 

Really? You don't think a discussion about whether a player deserves the descriptor "good" is a difference of opinion?  You pointed out some facts using anecdotal evidence (which happens to be a logical fallacy)  and then got snippy I didn't agree with your opinion.  That's textbook inciting.  

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

VanderEsche had a good game last night from what I've read.  So Edmunds has shown he's coming along as a 20 year old rookie.

 

That's the key right there. From what you read. You needed to watch to evaluate. Vander is further ahead of Edmunds in his development right now. It's easy to see on the field. Vander doesn't get caught out of position much and his first step is more instinctive to the ball and not the fake. He sees the field a little better and follows through to make the tackle, then makes it.

Edmonds has more upside. He is faster and that helps with coverage. I think in a few years Edmonds will be a more complete sideline to sideline MLB. For this year and maybe next Vander will shine a little brighter.  If the full intent is to guarantee he has a second contract then I'd pick Edmonds. 

 

The same may hold true with Zay, but until he gets in a groove with Allen it's too hard to tell. Juju has had a few years with Ben working on timing and having the luxury of Brown drawing coverage.  He's a great #2.  Zay is now expected to be our #1 because comparing Brown to KB is like comparing a Ferrari to a broken down 1983 Ford Pinto.  

 

We need to see how things unfold next year before making a final judgement on the Zay/Juju pick

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by BillsRdue

[Bing Bong]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

Stop with the facts, will yah?  

lol. He was definitely a reach at the time IIRC. If Bills wanted him as the Cowboys did, they probably would have stayed pat and been VERY surprised/disappointed after the Cowboys pick.

[BillsFan130]

I see your point but still a bit early. 

 

Edmunds has at least been descent In his rookie season where Zay was a disaster.

 

And I believe Edmunds has lots of room to grow.

 

 

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, BillsRdue said:

 

That's the key right there. From what you read. You needed to watch to evaluate. Vander is further ahead of Edmunds in his development right now. It's easy to see on the field. Vander doesn't get caught out of position much and his first step is more instinctive to the ball and not the fake. He sees the field a little better and follows through to make the tackle, then makes it.

Edmonds has more upside. He is faster and that helps with coverage. I think in a few years Edmonds will be a more complete sideline to sideline MLB. For this year and maybe next Vander will shine a little brighter.  If the full intent is to guarantee he has a second contract then I'd pick Edmonds. 

To some extent they probably both fit their teams better as well. We needed the athleticism. Cowboys had it in Jaylon Smith. Now I'd like the 3rd young piece to shape up by Milano and Edmunds and see how it goes. No idea who compliments the 2.. probably a straight up run stuffer, capable blitzer.. basically a young LoRax.. idk. An LVE and Edmunds would be awesome.