Allen looked very good today

[Roundybout]

13 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Rushed by Watt.  Going backward threw to sideline for no gain.  Showed his arm strength but not a great decision, should have just thrown it away.

It was one of the best pass for zero yards I've seen LOL

 

Seriously, I've never seen a 30 yard pass go for no gain before 

[Warcodered]

Seems like he improved from last game he was more accurate and while throwing it away when you have to is important I like that he found short yardage options instead of throwing it away as often as he did last week.

[Augie]

9 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

Seriously, I've never seen a 30 yard pass go for no gain before 

 

It was Jack Kemp-esque! 

[Fadingpain]

37 minutes ago, Augie said:

My single biggest hope for this year is to see progress with Josh. It will NOT be a finished product by any means, but give me hope that he can be The Guy. 

With due respect, I think that if Josh was capable of progressing to the point where he can be a good, long term, franchise QB, he would look better than he does now.  

 

He is currently completely lost and unable to perform basic core skills which are required for a QB to be successful at the NFL level.

 

Further, he has never had those skills in the first place.  

Could he morph into "the guy"???  Sure he could. 

Is it probable?  Not in my opinion.  In fact, it's quite a long shot.

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Fadingpain said:

With due respect, I think that if Josh was capable of progressing to the point where he can be a good, long term, franchise QB, he would look better than he does now.  

 

He is currently completely lost and unable to perform basic core skills which are required for a QB to be successful at the NFL level.

 

Further, he has never had those skills in the first place.  

Could he morph into "the guy"???  Sure he could. 

Is it probable?  Not in my opinion.  In fact, it's quite a long shot.

 

 

Do you have this somewhere convenient on your computer to copy and paste or do you just type it out every single time.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

With due respect, I think that if Josh was capable of progressing to the point where he can be a good, long term, franchise QB, he would look better than he does now.  

 

He is currently completely lost and unable to perform basic core skills which are required for a QB to be successful at the NFL level.

 

Further, he has never had those skills in the first place.  

Could he morph into "the guy"???  Sure he could. 

Is it probable?  Not in my opinion.  In fact, it's quite a long shot.

 

 

 

I’m as disappointed and concerned as the next guy, but after watching Darnold highlights throwing to WIDE OPEN WR’s, I’ll play wait and see. He’s got zippo to work with. He would have been my fourth QB last draft, but he’s ours now so I’ll let it play out and cross my fingers.

 

I do like the FO enough to give them another shot at QB if he’s not the guy (as of this moment). I don’t want to start over if it happens that Allen was a whiff. 

[VW82]

So first of all, thank you for doing this. It's always appreciated when someone puts in time to go back through the game to isolate a player.

 

That said, some of this analysis was a little rose coloured. That Benjamin throw wasn't just long, it wasn't even in bounds. It wasn't close to catchable. Neither was the throw over the middle to Zay, and it had nothing to do with Zay being held. Josh threw it ~374 MPH into triple coverage. Jerry Rice wouldn't have come down with that. Conversely, there was the throw to the flat in the second half where Josh lobbed it to McCoy when he needed to get it there quickly in order to have a chance for him to make a play.

 

The reason it looked like Josh was making quick decisions is because the plan was for him to take off after his first read. Even the announcers picked up on this. Many of those quick decisions were still bad decisions.

Edited October 15, 2018 by VW82

[johnnychemo]

I think it's important to realize that in all likelihood the brain trust didn't envision him playing at this point of the season. It was only due to the incredibly inept play of Peterman and the mishandling of the position (ie not keeping McCarron) that he is thrust into the starting role.

 

He didn't practice with the 1's for most of training camp, so not much of a chance to develop a feel or chemistry with most of the top receivers.

 

It was pretty well understood that the offensive rebuild was going to happen next year, and they were blindsided by losing both Wood and Incognito, so 

the line and receiving corps are still very much a work in progress (which is being charitable.) So no real weapons for him.

 

 

So while the playing experience is good for him (I guess) I think to expect a ton of growth during the course of the season is overly optimistic. Best case is he manages to improve his reads a bit and begins some real quarterback study in his first offseason as a pro. 

 

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I’m as disappointed and concerned as the next guy, but after watching Darnold highlights throwing to WIDE OPEN WR’s, I’ll play wait and see. He’s got zippo to work with. He would have been my fourth QB last draft, but he’s ours now so I’ll let it play out and cross my fingers.

 

I do like the FO enough to give them another shot at QB if he’s not the guy (as of this moment). I don’t want to start over if it happens that Allen was a whiff. 

After watching Zay catch a TD and Holmes catch a pass when Peterman came in, I'm thinking it's a bigger problem with Allen than some people want to believe.

 

He's nowhere close to competent with his pre-snap read.

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, VW82 said:

So first of all, thank you for doing this. It's always appreciated when someone puts in time to go back through the game to isolate a player.

 

That said, some of this analysis was a little rose coloured. That Benjamin throw wasn't just long, it wasn't even in bounds. It wasn't close to catchable. Neither was the throw over the middle to Zay, and it had nothing to do with Zay being held. Josh threw it ~374 MPH into triple coverage. Jerry Rice wouldn't have come down with that. Conversely, there was the throw to the flat in the second half where Josh lobbed it to McCoy when he needed to get it there quickly in order to have a chance for him to make a play.

 

The reason it looked like Josh was making quick decisions is because the plan was for him to take off after his first read. Even the announcers picked up on this. Many of those quick decisions were still bad decisions.

I think the throw to Zay would have been complete if he hadn't been tackled.

31 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

With due respect, I think that if Josh was capable of progressing to the point where he can be a good, long term, franchise QB, he would look better than he does now.  

 

He is currently completely lost and unable to perform basic core skills which are required for a QB to be successful at the NFL level.

 

Further, he has never had those skills in the first place.  

Could he morph into "the guy"???  Sure he could. 

Is it probable?  Not in my opinion.  In fact, it's quite a long shot.

 

 

Thanks for your same old post vs.  actually looking at the play by play thoughts.

[IronyAbounds]

It appears that many people are cutting Allen considerably more slack than they did Manuel, who in his first year looked much better than Allen. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the offense assembled this year by McBeane is historically bad, but it isn't entirely clear how much of the ineptitude is due to the QBs and how much to overall lack of talent. The 2013 receiving corp, while not as bad as this year's bunch, still wasn't exactly a stellar group of studs. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Bills' fans just don't want to admit the FO screwed up yet again.

[VW82]

11 minutes ago, IronyAbounds said:

It appears that many people are cutting Allen considerably more slack than they did Manuel, who in his first year looked much better than Allen. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the offense assembled this year by McBeane is historically bad, but it isn't entirely clear how much of the ineptitude is due to the QBs and how much to overall lack of talent. The 2013 receiving corp, while not as bad as this year's bunch, still wasn't exactly a stellar group of studs. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Bills' fans just don't want to admit the FO screwed up yet again.

 

If I had to handicap it, I'd say fans are treating him with kid gloves because: 40% investment related (one FRP, two SRPs, Cordy Glenn); 30% "tools" (i.e. big athletic kid, throws super hard, etc.); 30% aww shucks, done good farm boy from a small school that just wants to work hard like those fine folks in Buffalo. But yes, it would seem that Bills fans are grading him on a curve.

Edited October 15, 2018 by VW82

[IronyAbounds]

10 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

But yes, it would seem that Bills fans are grading him on a curve.

Unfortunately for the Bills, and Allen for that matter, at this point it's Deadman's Curve. For some young QBs who are closer to a finished product experience by playing may work, but for someone so far from being ready it is more likely to make it less likely that he will be able to develop into anything. I don't think they are doing him any favors at this point.

[Augie]

43 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

After watching Zay catch a TD and Holmes catch a pass when Peterman came in, I'm thinking it's a bigger problem with Allen than some people want to believe.

 

He's nowhere close to competent with his pre-snap read.

 

....at least he didn’t float that pick 6 out there, so there’s that? 

[LeGOATski]

25 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

....at least he didn’t float that pick 6 out there, so there’s that? 

Obviously, but we're talking about Allen vs the receivers.

[VW82]

43 minutes ago, IronyAbounds said:

Unfortunately for the Bills, and Allen for that matter, at this point it's Deadman's Curve. For some young QBs who are closer to a finished product experience by playing may work, but for someone so far from being ready it is more likely to make it less likely that he will be able to develop into anything. I don't think they are doing him any favors at this point.

 

The hope at this point has to be that Allen can't go on Sunday and Anderson winds up lighting it up, which puts just enough pressure on the coaching staff to keep Allen out under the cover of the elbow injury / Anderson's success. Best case scenario is he sits through the buy week and comes back for the final six games of the season when we'll inevitably be out of it and the pressure to win is off. 

 

Alas, I fear we'll throw him right back to the wolves and people inside and outside of the organization will start to turn on him and blame him for the lost season. He'll press even harder to make plays and win in order to prove everyone wrong, and wind up going further backwards with his already failing fundamentals which will only provide more ammunition for his detractors. Sigh.  

Edited October 15, 2018 by VW82

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

I realize the Bills offense is terrible but I think there is a lot of over reaction on this board on the negative side about Allen's performance.  Let's remember that he was very good against the Vikings, led a game winning drive a week ago and he has only played 5 games. 

 

I am listening to Schopp and the Bulldog right now talk about not seeing progress with Allen.  That is a point that many of you have made on this board and it is valid but, he has some major things working against him that are all the fault of the coaching staff and front office.

 

We have a pretty bad offensive line.  People are on Allen about running so much but maybe if he wasn't so quick to run yesterday with Watt, Mercilus and Clowney coming at him, he would have been sacked a lot more like Watson was.  We also probably have the worst group of receivers in the NFL.  Imagine if the Bills had a Hopkins that caught everything and a Fuller that the defense had to worry about getting behind them.  Those kind of things would make a big difference.  I realize not all teams have that but our best receiver by a lot is Zay Jones.

 

Another thing is our seriously vanilla offense.  Yes give Shady the ball more, but how many times are we going to put Allen in a tough situation with runs on the first two downs up the middle for minimal gains, leaving Allen with a 3rd and long?  We need better scheming from our Daboll and if he can't do it we are going to be behind the good teams in that department until we replace him.

 

I understand everyone's concern but the I really think Allen just needs things to slow down for him a bit.  When he decides to run, he makes plays and additionally he is extremely tough for the defender to bring down.  His ability to run and break tackles will allow him to extend plays outside the pocket and make plays in situations where his accuracy won't need to be great.  He is never going to lead the league in accuracy but he will make enough plays to move the offense consistently and he will make a few wow plays a game that can tip the scale.   

 

Yes we have not seen a ton of progress in Allen from game 1 to 5, but how much were we supposed to see?  He has the worst supporting cast in football and his coaches aren't doing him any favors.  I actually thought he was starting to hit his stride yesterday when he got injured and felt pretty confident he was going to win us the game.  Also we just went through a tough part of the schedule for our offense with the Titans and Texans.  Allen probably wouldn't have evened out his stats a bit this week against the Colts.  That said I think this injury could be a real blessing.  Now that he has had a taste, he gets to sit back and let everything sink in with the injury.  At the same time he can watch the vet do his thing and pick up on the little things he isn't doing that might make a difference.

 

I think when you really consider all the circumstances, it is extremely, extremely premature for anyone to say Allen is a bust.  Surround him with talent on the offensive side in the off-season (we should have the cap room and picks to do so) and see how he does next year.  Then we will know what we have.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by K-GunJimKelly12

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

I realize the Bills offense is terrible but I think there is a lot of over reaction on this board on the negative side about Allen's performance.  Let's remember that he was very good against the Vikings, led a game winning drive a week ago and he has only played 5 games. 

 

I am listening to Schopp and the Bulldog right now talk about not seeing progress with Allen.  That is a point that many of you have made on this board and it is valid but, he has some major things working against him that are all the fault of the coaching staff and front office.

 

We have a pretty bad offensive line.  People are on Allen about running so much but maybe if he wasn't so quick to run yesterday with Watt, Mercilus and Clowney coming at him, he would have been sacked a lot more like Watson was.  We also probably have the worst group of receivers in the NFL.  Imagine if the Bills had a Hopkins that caught everything and a Fuller that the defense had to worry about getting behind them.  Those kind of things would make a big difference.  I realize not all teams have that but our best receiver is Zay Jones by a lot.

 

Another thing is our seriously vanilla offense.  Yes give Shady the ball more, but how many times are we going to put Allen in a tough situation runs on the first two downs up the middle for minimal gains, leaving Allen with a 3rd and long?  We need better scheming form our Daboll and if he can't do it we are going to be behind the good teams in that department until we replace him.

 

I understand everyone's concern but the I really think Allen just needs things to slow down for him a bit.  When he decides to run, he makes plays and additionally he is extremely tough for the defender to bring down.  His ability to run and break tackles will allow him to extend plays outside the pocket and make plays in situations where his accuracy won't need to be great.  He is never going to lead the league in accuracy but he will make enough plays to move the offense consistently and he will make a few wow plays a game that can tip the scale.   

 

Yes we have not seen a ton of progress in Allen from game 1 to 5, but how much were we supposed to see?  He has the worst supporting cast in football and his coaches aren't doing him any favors.  I actually thought he was starting to hit his stride yesterday when he got injured and felt pretty confident he was going to win us the game.  Also we just went through a tough part of the schedule with for our offense with the Titans and Texans.  Allen probably wouldn't have evened out his stats a bit this week against the Colts.  That said I think this injury could be a real blessing.  Now that he has had a taste, he gets to sit back and let everything sink in with the injury.  At the same time he can watch the vet do his thing and pick up on the little things he isn't doing that might make a difference.

 

I think when you really consider all the circumstances, it is extremely, extremely premature for anyone to say Allen is a bust.  Surround him with talent on the offensive side in the off-season (we should have the cap room and picks to do so) and see how he does next year.  Then we will know what we have.

 

Vanilla offense?  Allen has a lot to do with this when he can't even decipher the easiest of half field reads. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

He showed off his athleticism so far. We need to see him show off the anticipation and arm at some point. 

 

Hopefully we get at least one game we look at and get excited about. Vikings game wasn't it. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by TheTruthHurts

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

6 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Vanilla offense?  Allen has a lot to do with this when he can't even decipher the easiest of half field reads. 

He is a rookie QB and I'm not expecting him to decipher NFL defenses within his first 5 games.  If he can't do it by next season he is probably a bust.  You can be of the opinion that the coaches are putting him in the best position to win but I am not.

[26CornerBlitz]

8 minutes ago, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

He is a rookie QB and I'm not expecting him to decipher NFL defenses within his first 5 games.  If he can't do it by next season he is probably a bust.  You can be of the opinion that the coaches are putting him in the best position to win but I am not.

 

Giving him more to do in with a higher degree of complexity when he can't process fast enough isn't putting him in the best position to win. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[quinnearlysghost88]

it's always interesting when people talk about progression after 6 games. like what am i supposed to see after he's played like 20 hours of NFL football? his whole game changed? Is he supposed to be throwing TD after TD? or is he going to slowly learn to read blitzes and coverages, and build relationships with pass catchers and learn situational awareness. things that take time. that don't show up on the scoreboard immediately. buffalo will run every single QB out of town before their second season is over. 

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Giving him more to do in with a higer degree of complexity when he can't process fast enough isn't putting him in the best position to win. 

That is a valid point but I still don't think Daboll is doing him any favors?  How much play action do we use for as much as we run?  It seemed to work the one time I remember us doing it yesterday.  Can Allen not process running more play action passes when the opposing defense is stacked up to stop the run?

Edited October 15, 2018 by K-GunJimKelly12

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

Allen is 5 games into his career.

 

Kelly played 2 years in USFL and still went 1-4 his first 5 games.  We finished 4-12 that year.  We are already 2-3 with Allen.

 

WAY to early to worry.

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

An unpolished QB who can’t make presnap reads... a porous OL...   a WR corps that struggles to gain separation and make catches...  It all adds up to a horrendous passing attack and some of the blame is Allen’s.

 

We can all guess if Allen will get better but no one knows.  He has a NFL arm but we don’t know if he will learn the other stuff which is sometimes learnable.   All we can do is cross our fingers and pray to the gridiron gods.

[fridge]

13 minutes ago, quinnearlysghost88 said:

it's always interesting when people talk about progression after 6 games. like what am i supposed to see after he's played like 20 hours of NFL football? his whole game changed? Is he supposed to be throwing TD after TD? or is he going to slowly learn to read blitzes and coverages, and build relationships with pass catchers and learn situational awareness. things that take time. that don't show up on the scoreboard immediately. buffalo will run every single QB out of town before their second season is over. 

 

No, but one TD in 13 quarters would be nice.

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

4 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

No, but one TD in 13 quarters would be nice.

Moving the team down the field and running the ball in is just as good.

[MAJBobby]

Why I am down on Allen Development. Is the coaches 

 

Culley and Daboll

 

Allen has regressed from the Strides he made with Palmer and that lays directly at the feet of those charged with his development. Culley and Daboll

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

35 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

 

Hopefully we get at least one game we look at and get excited about. Vikings game wasn't it. 

 

If you weren't excited about the vikings game, then you're beyond help, probably.

 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, joesixpack said:

 

If you weren't excited about the vikings game, then you're beyond help, probably.

 

 

Excited for a half. Not a complete game

Edited October 15, 2018 by MAJBobby

[fridge]

Just now, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

Moving the team down the field and running the ball in is just as good.

 

Yikes. There's nothing "good" to look at there.  It's getting to the point where the only positives for Allen are his arm strength, his tenacity, and his youth.

[Bangarang]

4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Why I am down on Allen Development. Is the coaches 

 

Culley and Daboll

 

Allen has regressed from the Strides he made with Palmer and that lays directly at the feet of those charged with his development. Culley and Daboll

 

Regressed how? Things change dramatically when you have 5-7 guys rushing you as opposed to working on mechanics against air in gym shorts. This comes back to him being placed in a horrible situation where he was forced to play. That’s on BB and McD.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

Regressed how? Things change dramatically when you have 5-7 guys rushing you as opposed to working on mechanics against air in gym shorts. This comes back to him being placed in a horrible situation where he was forced to play. That’s on BB and McD.

 

His Mechanics were fine in Preseason and in SD and Minny and now they have gone completely away. But I agree it is on BB and McD not only with how the entire QB thing was handled. What they put around the QB and the coaches they have charged with developing the QB 

[Bangarang]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

His Mechanics were fine in Preseason and in SD and Minny and now they have gone completely away. But I agree it is on BB and McD not only with how the entire QB thing was handled. What they put around the QB and the coaches they have charged with developing the QB 

 

If Allen is a bust it’s because this regime set him up to fail which is mind boggling given what they invested to get him. For guys that talk about the process and making smart decisions, this was horrible.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

15 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

If you weren't excited about the vikings game, then you're beyond help, probably.

 

Excited yeah. His athleticism was exciting. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

54 minutes ago, In Nate We Trust said:

Agreed. He has looked good at times. That is what you want from a rookie. He needs some weapons, especially a deep threat.

 

...why the hell NOT?....Jesus, he's FIVE games into his NFL body of work...imagine if Peyton (3-13) or Aikman (1-15) in their rook years had to endure the TBD Tribunal?.....UBER would be on overload to get their butts outta town.......word to Josh: RENT...do not BUY........you ain't here for long......

[VW82]

I think the biggest thing he needs to show, even as a rookie, is that he can occasionally stand in the pocket, feel the rush and maneuver around it without putting his head down and taking off, and find receivers down field for chunk yardage. I'll take the odd bad decision, INT, or sack if he's showing progress in this area. 

 

Josh is never going to be Phillip Rivers manipulating coverage at the line, but perhaps he might eventually show signs of being a big play threat with his arm and his legs. Think Jeff George.

 

The concern right now is that outside of the Minnesota game, he really hasn't shown much of anything. Part of that is the game plan - clearly McD and Daboll don't trust him to not lose us the game Peterman-style, and so they've been ultra-conservative with play calling and limiting Josh's reads. I expect that once we're out of the playoff race they'll open things up and let Allen play a little more freely so he can learn from his mistakes.  

Edited October 16, 2018 by VW82

[zow2]

The main reason for hope is that despite almost no passing offense and barely scratching the surface of his NFL potential, he’s led the team to victories over the Minnesota Vikings and Tennessee Titans. That’s two NFL teams that wanted to rip his head off. And yes, defense was awesome, but he led the team.  Winning NFL games is a hard deal. 

[Jaywrizzo]

8 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I agree Allen needs to improve.  I suspect if you asked Allen, he would say he needs to improve.  But he has played less than half an NFL season.

 

The last rookie QB I can remember that walked in and actually played great was Dan Marino.

Cam put up 400yds in back to back his 1st 2 games...but I hear U....I'm not giving up on him yet.

..He has garbage at the Wr position but he creates some of those problems.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

The main reason for hope is that despite almost no passing offense and barely scratching the surface of his NFL potential, he’s led the team to victories over the Minnesota Vikings and Tennessee Titans. That’s two NFL teams that wanted to rip his head off. And yes, defense was awesome, but he led the team.  Winning NFL games is a hard deal. 

 

Hello dominating defense!