Brandon Beane: The Art of a Deal

[RoyBatty is alive]

18 hours ago, VADC Bills said:

I didn't like the way they tried to bring down his character to justify getting nothing for him. When he showed up late for game day their ego's became bruised so he had to go.  Beane and McDermott handled the situation like rookie managers who wanted to make an example out of someone to keep everyone else in line.. I see it everyday in corporate America. If he was that much of a problem Marrone would not have jumped to get him. Good read sprinkled with BS.

You might be correct but I disagree.

 

You get paid incredible sums of money, you really dont have a lot of responsibility and you have what 20 games a year.  One thing that is inexcusable is to show up late for a game/miss a bus or flight.   He was already on the hot seat for past mis-deeds.  Belichek put Brandon Spikes on IR because he was late for a team meeting (not a game) despite the fact he was caught in a snowstorm.  

 

If Belichek had traded Dareus people would be saying how brilliant and tough Beiihek is.

 

IMO, they abosultely did the right thing.

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

You might be correct but I disagree.

 

You get paid incredible sums of money, you really dont have a lot of responsibility and you have what 20 games a year.  One thing that is inexcusable is to show up late for a game/miss a bus or flight.   He was already on the hot seat for past mis-deeds.  Belichek put Brandon Spikes on IR because he was late for a team meeting (not a game) despite the fact he was caught in a snowstorm.  

 

If Belichek had traded Dareus people would be saying how brilliant and tough Beiihek is.

 

IMO, they abosultely did the right thing.

 

 

Well, when you win 5 SBs and have Tom Brady, every decision is better.

 

and it’s easy to bench Spikes.  He wasn’t that good.  But there have been moves that have come back to bite them.  The Chandler Jones trade was completely awful and they are a much better team without him.  

 

IMO, it’s the nfl.  You win with talent. You don’t just give talent away and force yourself to play with Cedric Thornton.  We deserved to finally have the streak over.  But that was not a good team.  And on “paper”, it looks to be a worse team.  

[Wsam4031]

13 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

By fire sale prices, I assume you are referring to Dareus.  JAX is assuming Dareus' $47M cap hit during the 2019-2021 season.  Plus Marcel was never going to buy into McD's system, so he became a headache no matter how talented he is.  I don't mind getting rid of Dareus which will allow Beane and McD significant room to bring in guys who they want and will not be a management nightmare.  So Bean may not be Negotiator of the Century, but he could be Roster Architect of potentially the Decade; time will tell on that.

I agree he was a talented player until he got paid. me first attitude and I would've traded him for a bag of golf balls. Couldn't stand the guy by the end of his time here.

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Wsam4031 said:

I agree he was a talented player until he got paid. me first attitude and I would've traded him for a bag of golf balls. Couldn't stand the guy by the end of his time here.

Well that’s why some people shouldn’t be in charge.  You can’t let your personal feelings get in the way.  He still was our best DT and had value in the league.

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

And trading Tyrod for Pick 65 before his bonus was due when a lot of experts here were adamant they should just cut him as no one would even offer a 7th..

 

Most of the "experts" never worked on a NFL deal in their life. 

[Wsam4031]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well that’s why some people shouldn’t be in charge.  You can’t let your personal feelings get in the way.  He still was our best DT and had value in the league.

I definitely shouldn't be in charge. Some guys rub me the wrong way  and this dude was at the top of the list. I would guess he had almost no value in the league with that giant contract and bad attitude. surprised we got a 5th for him.  Im betting people weren't beating down the door for him

[Happy]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well that’s why some people shouldn’t be in charge.  You can’t let your personal feelings get in the way.  He still was our best DT and had value in the league.

 

I think McDermott's and Beane's point is that yes, Dareus was a good player and had talent, but he could have been even better.  Dareus didn't want to put in the extra effort to be the best he could be, so it seems.  They made the right decision in this case, after trying to work with Dareus, and does not appear that they took the decision to trade him lightly.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Wsam4031 said:

I definitely shouldn't be in charge. Some guys rub me the wrong way  and this dude was at the top of the list. I would guess he had almost no value in the league with that giant contract and bad attitude. surprised we got a 5th for him.  Im betting people weren't beating down the door for him

You may be right but he has legit talent.  It’s funny some fans hate the contract he had but would have rioted if we let a 24 year old all pro walk for nothing.

 

and Dareus is the player I’ve always given the biggest benefit of the doubt too.  I know he’s rich and plays a game but he has been through a lot.  I know it sounds crazy but I’m not sure I’d trade the money to experience all those deaths. 

 

I thonk getting a 5th for a player that talent sucks, especially during a playoff run, & a cap hit.  I get there are other factors but the Jags got a pro bowl type talent with a chip on his shoulder for nothing.

6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

I think McDermott's and Beane's point is that yes, Dareus was a good player and had talent, but he could have been even better.  Dareus didn't want to put in the extra effort to be the best he could be, so it seems.  They made the right decision in this case, after trying to work with Dareus, and does not appear that they took the decision to trade him lightly.

That’s fair.  And while it’s mainly on the player, I think the coach needs to be held accountable too.  It’s a lot easier to find a head coach than a DT who had a Warren Sapp start to his career.  But I hope they are right.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

19 hours ago, VADC Bills said:

I didn't like the way they tried to bring down his character to justify getting nothing for him. When he showed up late for game day their ego's became bruised so he had to go.  Beane and McDermott handled the situation like rookie managers who wanted to make an example out of someone to keep everyone else in line.. I see it everyday in corporate America. If he was that much of a problem Marrone would not have jumped to get him. Good read sprinkled with BS.

 

They didn't try to bring down his character to justify anything. Dareus did that all on his own. If character wasn't an issue, even with his salary and potential health issue, the Jags would have offered more than a 6th for a former 3rd overall pick. He was arguably the best DT in football for a couple years, and not that long ago. 

 

I don't think it had anything to do with "bruised egos". It was about being accountable, and setting the right example. When you're paid as much as he was, the team has certain expectations, on and off the field. Dareus did not adhere, and Beane and McDermott cut the cancer out. And with such a high salary, it made that decision easier. They weren't "rookie managers" IMO. It was the smart, responsible thing to do for the club.

[Wsam4031]

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You may be right but he has legit talent.  It’s funny some fans hate the contract he had but would have rioted if we let a 24 year old all pro walk for nothing.

 

and Dareus is the player I’ve always given the biggest benefit of the doubt too.  I know he’s rich and plays a game but he has been through a lot.  I know it sounds crazy but I’m not sure I’d trade the money to experience all those deaths. 

 

I thonk getting a 5th for a player that talent sucks, especially during a playoff run, & a cap hit.  I get there are other factors but the Jags got a pro bowl type talent with a chip on his shoulder for nothing.

That’s fair.  And while it’s mainly on the player, I think the coach needs to be held accountable too.  It’s a lot easier to find a head coach than a DT who had a Warren Sapp start to his career.  But I hope they are right.

dude def has legit talent. I never hated that contract it wasn't my money and it was going rate for a top teir DT at the time. What I hated was how he seemed to quit, kept getting in trouble, and seemed to think he was bigger than the team( being consistently late, taking plays and games off, thinking his way was the only way) after he got that money

[billsredneck1]

19 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...perhaps Chapter 2 of his deal making IMO.....in the market to sign a vet QB....I believe the blown Cleveland deal had McCarron valued at a 2nd or 3rd.....so the FA feeding frenzy begins and ends yet McBeane doesn't make a move, calmly waiting for agents to come calling for their unemployed clients.....and he snags McCarron on HIS terms.....or even Chapter 3 to move up draft time to 12 and then again to 7 to select (hopefully) the franchise QB (Allen) without surrendering much draft capital......of course, the jury is out on BOTH, but I would say both deals were artful so far.......

i hear so many people claim with authority how we waited all the way through fa and scraped a.j. off the heap. if i recall the top free agents already had destinations and foles wasn't going to get moved. also, there was this matter of when a.j. won his suit, so i don't see it as sitting on hands.  signing a.j. to a 2 yr. deal 48 hrs. after the verdict does not seem to me out of the ordinary to put ink to paper. he has the skills and desire to get us 10-6. i believe nate can do it too. i believe in dabol.

 

one other thing was the browns valuing him as a 2nd and 3rd deal...was a trade deadline deal that didn't happen.

Edited June 27, 2018 by billsredneck1

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Wsam4031 said:

dude def has legit talent. I never hated that contract it wasn't my money and it was going rate for a top teir DT at the time. What I hated was how he seemed to quit, kept getting in trouble, and seemed to think he was bigger than the team( being consistently late, taking plays and games off, thinking his way was the only way) after he got that money

I think it was a bunch of factors: 1) his brother getting murdered 2) it’s always risky to play big guys IMO 3) Rex’s stupid system which he hated and was right about.  

 

And obviously, he didn’t click with McDermott.  Even with everything I’d still rather have him than a 5th but it’s done now.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It was a great, no brainer deal for the Jags.  For all his faults, our run defense was much better when Dareus was on the team (and the Jags improved tremendously after getting him) .  Trading him at that point in the season made no sense.  

 

Now, Dareus is super motivated and we gave big money to a 1-2 down DT in a passing league (for the record, I like star but he is becoming an outdated player).  

Dareus had almost as many sacks in one season as Star had in his career. Dareus also never had Kuechley and Thomas Davis behind him.  

 

 

What I know for sure is that Star is going to come into camp in shape. That can't be said for Dareus. What I also know for sure is that Star is going to be diligent in preparing to play. That can't be said for Dareus. What I know for sure is that Star is going to stay awake in the film room. That can't be said for Dareus. Moving Dareus sooner rather than later was the right thing for the team and for Dareus. 

[Gavin in Va Beach]

4 hours ago, BritBill said:

I can't access the article as the WGR websites restricts users from outside the US. Please can somebody paste the article on here if possible?

 

Thank you.

 

If you download the Opera browser, I believe it comes with a free VPN. Using that you should be able to make WGR think you are inside the US and view the article. Not a 100% sure, but worth a shot.

[billsredneck1]

14 hours ago, Doc said:

 

He got pretty good value for Sammy and Darby.  Dareus not so much, but his contract was an albatross.

point being that doug whaley had us on the fast track to salary cap hell, which would have held our heads under water for the next 5 yrs. beane had to make moves.

[hondo in seattle]

We can nitpick his decisions but I like a GM who has a clear vision of what kind of team he wants and then aggressively goes out and gets the players he needs, jettisoning the players that don't fit his vision.

And so far, McD and Beane seem to be working together for a shared vision.  

 

I'm cautiously optimistic about this duo.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

By fire sale prices, I assume you are referring to Dareus.  JAX is assuming Dareus' $47M cap hit during the 2019-2021 season.  Plus Marcel was never going to buy into McD's system, so he became a headache no matter how talented he is.  I don't mind getting rid of Dareus which will allow Beane and McD significant room to bring in guys who they want and will not be a management nightmare.  So Bean may not be Negotiator of the Century, but he could be Roster Architect of potentially the Decade; time will tell on that.

 

Not entirely.  Dareus was one top-5, enormously talented pick who had become an enormous liability.  To change team culture, your highest paid guys have to be the heart and soul of the team, the leaders, the ones who go the extra mile both in preparation/training and in how they play - every snap.  It was clear Dareus was not that guy, and was not going to be that guy.  So I don't blame Beane for unloading him.  I shudder at the thought of a 5th round pick as "fair compensation", but I understand the need to take a "fire sale" trade because of the enormous salary burden the trade partner was taking on.  Dareus was traded for a 5th round and ~$47M of cap space from 2019-2021.  That is probably fair value for the player he has been for the last 3 seasons and the salary regained.

 

Watkins also made sense, giving up a 6th and a guy we weren't gonna re-sign (so a 1 year rental) for a 1 year rental of EJ Gaines and a 2nd round pick.  Again, probably fair value for the player Watkins had shown himself (not) to be.

 

In trading Ragland, Darby, Watkins, and Seymour, Beane traded away young inexpensive guys who have talent and can play in the NFL, on their first contract, for relative fire-sale prices.   No one has tagged these guys as anything but good teammates and hard workers.   None of them were cap burdens.

 

Ragland: 3 years rookie deal left, 2nd round draftee traded for 4th round pick

Darby: 2 years rookie deal left, 2nd round draftee traded for 3rd round pick and 1-year rental of Matthews, a WR who contributed 2.5 catches and 28 ypg - when he played.

Seymour: a 6th round draftee who had shown he could play in the NFL and had 3 years left on his rookie deal, for a speedy PR/WR on his 5th team, on a 1- yr deal and waived in less than 2 months and a 2019 7th

 

Now you might say they were "bad scheme fits" here, and maybe they were.  It's just, seems like the best GMs and coaches manage somehow to make use of the talent they have.  And clearly, if Matthews and Clay had worked out for us and we'd been able to re-sign them and Gaines for a reasonable cost, I'd probably view it differently.

 

Again, I want to like the article.  I'm just not impressed by how the trades worked out for us.  Obviously if the players we got with that 2nd and 4th round pick prove out, and if Benjamin looks good this year, then Beane's a genius.

 

 

[Flip Johnson]

Good article.

 

Here's what I like: 45 year old Sal Capaccio sees his media colleagues like Sullivan, Gleason, etc. cranking out derivative columns for the last ten years. Now they're out of work. Capaccio doesn't normally write longer stuff like this thing - good for him to stretch himself in the summer time.

 

As for Beane himself, he and McDermott have the same ability to be forthright about their perspective, while also keeping total control on the actual inner workings of the organization.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it was a bunch of factors: 1) his brother getting murdered 2) it’s always risky to play big guys IMO 3) Rex’s stupid system which he hated and was right about.  

 

And obviously, he didn’t click with McDermott.  Even with everything I’d still rather have him than a 5th but it’s done now.

 

Sure he might have hated Rex's system, but he played half a season under McD and still didn't give maximum effort.  The guy just doesn't have the drive to do more than the bare minimum (or slightly above) to keep cashing paychecks and is just getting by on his talent.  When you see that, you realize he'll never live up to his contract or be the player he once was and that you need to get his poor attitude and example, as well as money, off the team ASAP. 

 

And again, the team made the playoffs without him, Sammy, or Darby.  That's a lot of talent to shed and still make the playoffs.  So either the team is greater than the sum of the individual talents or they had a lot of remaining talent.

[boater]

Quote

he relies on Overdorf for assistance

Well that's a concern. To me, Overdorf is the common denominator in a Bills pattern of excessive contract extensions.

 

The fact that Overdorf is the firewall to an incoming trade contract... no warm and fuzzy.

[ProcessAccepted]

22 hours ago, VADC Bills said:

I didn't like the way they tried to bring down his character to justify getting nothing for him. When he showed up late for game day their ego's became bruised so he had to go.  Beane and McDermott handled the situation like rookie managers who wanted to make an example out of someone to keep everyone else in line.. I see it everyday in corporate America. If he was that much of a problem Marrone would not have jumped to get him. Good read sprinkled with BS.

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. The best leaders and coaches hold people accountable regardless of who they are and their talent level. It's absolutely required if your going to change the culture.

 

You don't have to look outside of our division at a veteran coach (who's hardly a rookie manager) who's been winning year after year by doing exactly what you are criticizing McBeane for. 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

18 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Thanks for posting.  I wanted this article, just as I want to like Beane.

 

What it comes down to is:  he shipped a bunch of high-round draft picks who are acknowledged to be able to play, for fire sale prices.

Now if Allen and Edmunds prove out, that will trump everything else.  If Benjamin can stay healthy and play this year, that will count for a lot.

 

But right now, as it stands, he isn't looking like Negotiator of the Century.

 

 

But it comes down to more than just talent. 

 

Dareus: very good talent, but very questionable commitment (displayed in his actions). Can not be depended on to play (displayed by his actions/suspensions). Also very expensive (didn't hold up his end after being paid, handicapping future roster moves/contracts) which made the thought of moving in easier. 

 

Watkins: very talented, but had some weird character issues at times. Unable to fully utilize him w/o a good QB. Would have needed a new, "expensive" contract very soon. 

 

Darby: very talented, but better fit in man coverage, McD is zone heavy. Biggest knock was making a play on the ball, McD defense is opportunistic, predicated on making plays on the ball. Reportedly wasn't fully "buying in". Would have needed a new, expensive contract very soon.

 

So why keep those kind of players just because they're talented, when they didn't "fit the mold" of McD players, and would have had significant cap ramifications? Moving those players and getting "fire sale prices" doesn't make Beane GM of the Century (no one is thinking that), but I think it shows that he's compitent and cognizant. We'll see what those picks in return will eventually amount to, but attaining them only helped the McD/Beane "plan" come to fruition, and hopefully sooner than expected, which wasn't going to be overnight anyways. 

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

13 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Just so much alternative facts by some when it came to Marcel

 

- Reports of repeated team meeting tardyness....late for practice.

- Use of drugs that could get him a year suspension

- Showing up out of shape to camp and expecting to work himself INTO shape

- LACK OF PRODUCTION given the huge contract

 

The bills did the only thing they could do....found a way to get out from under the contract by practically GIVING him away.....but also gave away his huge contract......

 

He did not fit what we were trying to do.....Star's contract is considerablly less......Beane did the only thing he really could do.

 

By the way....we made the playoffs without him

 

Well, sort of. He made a few plays last year that contributed (not enough plays to warrant keeping him, especially at that price).

 

I'll never forget his crucial stop on the 45-second lateral...

[BillsfaninSB]

I have no issues with Beane’s moves to date.  All of his trades and top draft picks passes the “I get why they did it test”.   But it all comes down to wins and losses.   2018 will be a very interesting season to watch unfold. That’s is a lot more then can be said about the previous several years. 

[John from Riverside]

52 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

Well, sort of. He made a few plays last year that contributed (not enough plays to warrant keeping him, especially at that price).

 

I'll never forget his crucial stop on the 45-second lateral...

He also was not available to us (because of injury, suspension, or whatever) in some games when we got ran on profusely.

 

Give me a motivated guy that makes less but still talented

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

5 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

i hear so many people claim with authority how we waited all the way through fa and scraped a.j. off the heap. if i recall the top free agents already had destinations and foles wasn't going to get moved. also, there was this matter of when a.j. won his suit, so i don't see it as sitting on hands.  signing a.j. to a 2 yr. deal 48 hrs. after the verdict does not seem to me out of the ordinary to put ink to paper. he has the skills and desire to get us 10-6. i believe nate can do it too. i believe in dabol.

 

one other thing was the browns valuing him as a 2nd and 3rd deal...was a trade deadline deal that didn't happen.

 

...opinions and respect for them make it all work.....appreciate your assessment bud....

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, boater said:

Well that's a concern. To me, Overdorf is the common denominator in a Bills pattern of excessive contract extensions.

 

The fact that Overdorf is the firewall to an incoming trade contract... no warm and fuzzy.

 

He is also one who approved clauses and did not insist that Darius have a clause allowing pull back of signing bonus with drug suspensions.

 

Whiley needed to defer to him; evidently Beane takes advice when he wants it which is much better.

4 hours ago, ProcessAccepted said:

 

I couldn't disagree with you more. The best leaders and coaches hold people accountable regardless of who they are and their talent level. It's absolutely required if your going to change the culture.

 

You don't have to look outside of our division at a veteran coach (who's hardly a rookie manager) who's been winning year after year by doing exactly what you are criticizing McBeane for. 

 

The "veteran" coach is also a "veteran" cheater who bends rules, etc.  I'll take the bad (Coach McD's dumping of good coaches to sign other coaches he had connections with who then dumped) with the good (not cheater).

[C.Biscuit97]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Sure he might have hated Rex's system, but he played half a season under McD and still didn't give maximum effort.  The guy just doesn't have the drive to do more than the bare minimum (or slightly above) to keep cashing paychecks and is just getting by on his talent.  When you see that, you realize he'll never live up to his contract or be the player he once was and that you need to get his poor attitude and example, as well as money, off the team ASAP. 

 

And again, the team made the playoffs without him, Sammy, or Darby.  That's a lot of talent to shed and still make the playoffs.  So either the team is greater than the sum of the individual talents or they had a lot of remaining talent.

My counter to the playoff point is that perhaps with Sammy and Dareus, two players at our weakest positions on the roster, maybe they make a run in a terrible AFC.  You flip Dareus from the Bills to the Jags and have Sammy, maybe you win that game.

9 hours ago, JohnC said:

What I know for sure is that Star is going to come into camp in shape. That can't be said for Dareus. What I also know for sure is that Star is going to be diligent in preparing to play. That can't be said for Dareus. What I know for sure is that Star is going to stay awake in the film room. That can't be said for Dareus. Moving Dareus sooner rather than later was the right thing for the team and for Dareus. 

Are we sure Star will be in shape?  And while I’d rather have him in shape, if there is ever a position you don’t need to be in shape for us DT.  See Ted Washington.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

It's hard to know what type of value you can get in a trade for a player in the NFL. The value of a player can fluctuate pretty wildly. 

 

Marshawn Lynch was traded for a 4th round pick. So was Bryce Brown. 

 

Tyrod Taylor (who the Bills were almost guaranteed to cut) was traded for a 3rd pick. AJ Mcarron (who was reportedly going for a 2nd+3rd rd pick before the Browns deadline snafu) walked as a UFA. Jimmy G was traded for a 2nd round pick. 

 

Generally I would say Beane has done well on trades. I would have rather kept Ragland and Dareus (especially Ragland), but I can see why they were traded. Keep in mind with Dareus that we are still on the hook for about 14mil in dead cap in the 2018-2019 season and that his original contract had a potential out after that season ended. Trading him netted us a 5th round pick and about 2mil of cap space in the 2018-2019 season. 

 

[billsfan89]

On 6/26/2018 at 3:24 PM, RoyBatty is alive said:

Makes me glad we traded him.  I didn't know Dareus said that, obviously very disappointing.  I have some compassion for Dareus as he has had a brutal life and, and honestly isn't too bright.  But he brought it all on himself, not like he couldn't see it coming after some of the trades they had already done with Watkins, no player that wasn't on board no matter what the talent wasn't safe.  Trust the process.

 

I get why they traded Dareus but it was no coincidence that once he was traded the run defense fell off a cliff. It almost sabotaged the defense on the season but longer-term shedding that salary and getting him out of the culture might be worth it. 

9 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

It's hard to know what type of value you can get in a trade for a player in the NFL. The value of a player can fluctuate pretty wildly. 

 

Marshawn Lynch was traded for a 4th round pick. So was Bryce Brown. 

 

Tyrod Taylor (who the Bills were almost guaranteed to cut) was traded for a 3rd pick. AJ Mcarron (who was reportedly going for a 2nd+3rd rd pick before the Browns deadline snafu) walked as a UFA. Jimmy G was traded for a 2nd round pick. 

 

Generally I would say Beane has done well on trades. I would have rather kept Ragland and Dareus (especially Ragland), but I can see why they were traded. Keep in mind with Dareus that we are still on the hook for about 14mil in dead cap in the 2018-2019 season and that his original contract had a potential out after that season ended. Trading him netted us a 5th round pick and about 2mil of cap space in the 2018-2019 season. 

 

 

Ragland was not a fit for the system that McD wanted to run. Ragland was a thumper in a 3-4 system, I don't think he would have been bad in a 4-3 but he might have been an early down run player who would be a terrible liability on passing down. Grabbing a 4th for him seemed like a good deal for both sides. 

[oldmanfan]

Ragland was third team in pre-season.  He didn't earn a spot here.

[billsredneck1]

18 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You may be right but he has legit talent.  It’s funny some fans hate the contract he had but would have rioted if we let a 24 year old all pro walk for nothing.

 

and Dareus is the player I’ve always given the biggest benefit of the doubt too.  I know he’s rich and plays a game but he has been through a lot.  I know it sounds crazy but I’m not sure I’d trade the money to experience all those deaths. 

 

I thonk getting a 5th for a player that talent sucks, especially during a playoff run, & a cap hit.  I get there are other factors but the Jags got a pro bowl type talent with a chip on his shoulder for nothing.

That’s fair.  And while it’s mainly on the player, I think the coach needs to be held accountable too.  It’s a lot easier to find a head coach than a DT who had a Warren Sapp start to his career.  But I hope they are right.

i didn't quite understand how they handled him.  i don't believe they had him playing more than, or perhaps even less than 50% of the snaps. i didn't get that. i would have tried to pump him up and make him play his ass off til he begged for a play off, so i never really understood their actions although i'm fine with the trade, especially for cap reasons.

[Doc]

10 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

My counter to the playoff point is that perhaps with Sammy and Dareus, two players at our weakest positions on the roster, maybe they make a run in a terrible AFC.  You flip Dareus from the Bills to the Jags and have Sammy, maybe you win that game.

 

They might have won that game, but they would have lost to the Cheaters in the 2nd round for sure.  And again, there were plays to be made on offense that TT failed to capitalize on so they weren't going to go far no matter who they had.  And all that would have done is drop them down further in the draft and then they're both gone at the end of the season for nothing.

 

Let me add that I wasn't a fan of trading Dareus at that point in time/for as little as they got.  In hindsight, IMHO it was a good move.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Doc

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

Are we sure Star will be in shape?  And while I’d rather have him in shape, if there is ever a position you don’t need to be in shape for us DT.  See Ted Washington.

Without a doubt Star will be in shape when camp starts. Not only will he be in shape but it is guaranteed that he won't be driving like a demon scattering the fleeing pedestrians on the sidewalk during the daylight hours. While Dareus is at risk to getting suspended for his immature behavior off the field Star has a history of acting like a mature adult on and off the field, something that Daeus finds challenging. 

 

When you make the argument that you are willing to accept one of the higher paid defensive linemen in the league to be out of shape then you have completely lost me. I am less tolerant than you and so is the regime that he was traded from. 

 

I wish Dareus well. Maybe a change of scenery will spark a change of attitude. He being dealt was the right thing for the organization that let him go, and hopefully it will work out well for for the organization that he went to. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Without a doubt Star will be in shape when camp starts. Not only will he be in shape but it is guaranteed that he won't be driving like a demon scattering the fleeing pedestrians on the sidewalk during the daylight hours. While Dareus is at risk to getting suspended for his immature behavior off the field Star has a history of acting like a mature adult on and off the field, something that Daeus finds challenging. 

 

When you make the argument that you are willing to accept one of the higher paid defensive linemen in the league to be out of shape then you have completely lost me. I am less tolerant than you and so is the regime that he was traded from. 

 

I wish Dareus well. Maybe a change of scenery will spark a change of attitude. He being dealt was the right thing for the organization that let him go, and hopefully it will work out well for for the organization that he went to. 

 

Did Dareus drive like a demon scattering pedestrians during daylight hours?  I musta missed it - not a surprise.

 

I hear what you say, John.  I do.  As I've said elsewhere, you need the top-paid players to be the leaders, the hardest workers, the guys who prepare hard and train hard and play hard on every down.  And when I've looked at the success elsewhere of players we once traded for a fire-sale price such as Marshawn Lynch, or if Watkins succeeds and Dareus gets back to form elsewhere, I've told and will tell myself "you can't assume they could have been as successful here, they needed that change of scene or that wake-up call".

But then there's this bottom line: to have a chance to be successful, sooner or later we have to be able to provide that "wake up call" or change of scene internally, through coaching or player leaders or what-have-you.  Because you can't become a great team by continually trading away your top-drafted talent for pennies on the dollar.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Did Dareus drive like a demon scattering pedestrians during daylight hours?  I musta missed it - not a surprise.

 

I hear what you say, John.  I do.  And when I've looked at the success of players we traded for a fire-sale price such as Marshawn Lynch, or if Watkins succeeds and Dareus gets back to form elsewhere, I've told and will tell myself "you can't assume they could have been as successful here, they needed that change of scene or that wake-up call".

But then there's this bottom line: to have a chance to be successful, sooner or later we have to be able to provide that "wake up call" or change of scene internally, through coaching or player leaders or what-have-you.  Because you can't become a great team by continually trading away your top-drafted talent for pennies on the dollar.

The problem with Dareus is that top drafted and talent seemed more and more like an oxymoron.

 

The current regime is putting a ton of emphasis on character, so hopefully such misses will now be few and far between.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

The problem with Dareus is that top drafted and talent seemed more and more like an oxymoron.

 

The current regime is putting a ton of emphasis on character, so hopefully such misses will now be few and far between.

 

With respect, that is to an extent revisionist history.  There was a point where people who know their football were saying "Marcell Dareus is the best DT in the league, Period."

Did he let that slide, yes, he did.  And slacking gets to be a habit, just like anything else a fellow does for a while.

 

My point is that at the end of the day, to field a championship team, you need top talent.  Top talent is NOT always going to be married to great character, maturity, and singleness of purpose.  So to succeed as Champions somehow at the end of the day the Bills need to be able to provide whatever it was that allowed Marshawn Lynch to succeed in Seattle in a way that he could or would not here; if Dareus regains his form in Jax ditto.

 

[Happy]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But then there's this bottom line: to have a chance to be successful, sooner or later we have to be able to provide that "wake up call" or change of scene internally, through coaching or player leaders or what-have-you.  Because you can't become a great team by continually trading away your top-drafted talent for pennies on the dollar.

 

The point you make about retaining and not trading top talent for pennies on the dollar is well taken and typically hard to argue against.  If a team must trade top talent, it should strive to get a premium for them, I agree.  In cases like Dareus and Lynch, I think the Bills tried to work with them and give them every chance possible.  The problem arises is that if such players cannot, or will not, realize they need to shape up (both on and off the field) the team has no choice but to unload them at a discount.  Other teams have pro scouts whose job it is to gather ALL information on the player, so any potential trade partner knows the issues regardless of talent and playing potential.  So in the cases of Lynch and Dareus, no team was going to pay a premium on them due to behavioral issues.

[oldmanfan]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

With respect, that is to an extent revisionist history.  There was a point where people who know their football were saying "Marcell Dareus is the best DT in the league, Period."

Did he let that slide, yes, he did.  And slacking gets to be a habit, just like anything else a fellow does for a while.

 

My point is that at the end of the day, to field a championship team, you need top talent.  Top talent is NOT always going to be married to great character, maturity, and singleness of purpose.  So to succeed as Champions somehow at the end of the day the Bills need to be able to provide whatever it was that allowed Marshawn Lynch to succeed in Seattle in a way that he could or would not here; if Dareus regains his form in Jax ditto.

 

Top talent is only to talent if you're willing to use it.  Lynch and Dareus are different.  Lynch simply did not want to be in Buffalo, and when we drafted Spiller Lynch and his agent told Buddy he simply would not be staying in Buffalo no matter what.  So Buddy traded him.  Lynch was a head case but when it came time to play football he was all in.  Not so much Dareus.  Talented true, but a head case.  McDermott did all he could do.  remember the pictures on him with his arm around Dareus in camp, trying to get through to him?  and he had the best role model you could have in Kyle right next to him.  Granted he had some personal issues, but come on.

 

I have no doubt McD and Beane will get top talent here, but top talent married to top attitude.

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Top talent is only to talent if you're willing to use it.  Lynch and Dareus are different.  Lynch simply did not want to be in Buffalo, and when we drafted Spiller Lynch and his agent told Buddy he simply would not be staying in Buffalo no matter what.  So Buddy traded him.  Lynch was a head case but when it came time to play football he was all in.  Not so much Dareus.  Talented true, but a head case.  McDermott did all he could do.  remember the pictures on him with his arm around Dareus in camp, trying to get through to him?  and he had the best role model you could have in Kyle right next to him.  Granted he had some personal issues, but come on.

 

I have no doubt McD and Beane will get top talent here, but top talent married to top attitude.

 

Lynch admitted he didn't act professionally in Buffalo but did once he got to Seattle.  !@#$.

 

As for Dareus, he played well-enough to earn a big contract.  But whether he should have been given $17M/year is debatable and not having any protections for the Bills in there was a major blunder.