Why Is Our Government Putting People In Cages?

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, Paulus said:

And, we still need the fed to tell us all that Illegal Aliens vote. Right, if this isn't encouraging treason...

 

Pretty sure registering illegal aliens to vote in school board elections does not even come close to "treason."

[Paulus]

1 hour ago, DC Tom said:

 

Pretty sure registering illegal aliens to vote in school board elections does not even come close to "treason."

But, when does the line get drawn with respect to encouraging the practice of illegally voting in our elections? Honestly, I don't think there is anything* actionable, but when everyone is yelling "treason" I think mine is as valid of a point as any. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Paulus

[row_33]

treason now means you choose a different flavour of ice cream than a liberal

 

 

[3rdnlng]

25 minutes ago, row_33 said:

treason now means you choose a different flavour of ice cream than a liberal

 

 

If that's true then I am treasonous. I refuse to eat Feckless Chunks.

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

If that's true then I am treasonous. I refuse to eat Feckless Chunks.

 

never enough pistachio almond

[DC Tom]

42 minutes ago, Paulus said:

But, when does the line get drawn with respect to encouraging the practice of illegally voting in our elections?

 

It's not illegal for illegal aliens to vote in school board elections, if the municipality responsibility for that school board says it's legal.  There's no federal law against illegal aliens voting in local elections.

 

The line between "legal" and "illegal" is pretty sharp and bright: "illegal" is against the law.  "Legal" isn't.  

 

44 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Honestly, I don't think there is anything* actionable, but when everyone is yelling "treason" I think mine is as valid of a point as any. 

 

The histrionic idiocy of others does not validate your point.  If anything, it makes you an equivalent histrionic idiot.

[3rdnlng]

33 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

It's not illegal for illegal aliens to vote in school board elections, if the municipality responsibility for that school board says it's legal.  There's no federal law against illegal aliens voting in local elections.

 

The line between "legal" and "illegal" is pretty sharp and bright: "illegal" is against the law.  "Legal" isn't.  

 

 

The histrionic idiocy of others does not validate your point.  If anything, it makes you an equivalent histrionic idiot.

It used to be that you'd call him an erudite poster and be thankful that he was here at PPP. Where are your manners?

[Paulus]

2 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

It's not illegal for illegal aliens to vote in school board elections, if the municipality responsibility for that school board says it's legal.  There's no federal law against illegal aliens voting in local elections.

 

The line between "legal" and "illegal" is pretty sharp and bright: "illegal" is against the law.  "Legal" isn't.  

 

 

The histrionic idiocy of others does not validate your point.  If anything, it makes you an equivalent histrionic idiot.

I would argue that it encourages illegal behavior(voting in other elections), if I wanted to press the point. That said, I do think you are ignorant of my sardonic personality, and perhaps missed my point entirely.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Paulus

[DC Tom]

2 hours ago, Paulus said:

I would argue that it encourages illegal behavior(voting in other elections), if I wanted to press the point. That said, I do think you are ignorant of my sardonic personality, and perhaps missed my point entirely.

 

If, by definition, it's legal behavior...

 

Ah, !@#$ it.  Just go pretend you're right.  I don't care.  The length of this discussion has exceeded my interest in it.

[Paulus]

2 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

If, by definition, it's legal behavior...

 

Ah, !@#$ it.  Just go pretend you're right.  I don't care.  The length of this discussion has exceeded my interest in it.

I am sorry the ellipsis was not enough to clue you in on the sarcasm. From now on, just consider them and indicator or just continue to think your the highest functioning autist in the room.

 

7 hours ago, 3rdnlng said:

It used to be that you'd call him an erudite poster and be thankful that he was here at PPP. Where are your manners?

Yeah, Tom's mastery of the Divergent series is dauntless. 

[Tiberius]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:55 AM, DC Tom said:

 

Yep.  Combating child trafficking is a huge motivation for this program.  

That's not what the Trump administration is saying. They admit its all about deterrence

 

http://thehill.com/latino/393000-hhs-official-says-family-separation-policy-will-have-deterrence-effect

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/06/19/here-are-the-administration-officials-who-have-said-that-family-separation-is-meant-as-a-deterrent/?utm_term=.43732835e789

 

 

[B-Man]

Democrats Prove Willing To Make Orphans Casualties In Their War Against Religion.

 

“Democrats on the House Appropriations Committee made it clear: they would rather see children suffer than tolerate the existence of faith-based adoption and foster-care providers.”

 

 

 

.

[B-Man]

Dem Rep. Joe Crowley: We need to talk about “compensation” for families who were separated at the border

 

 

 

Wut?

[row_33]

5 minutes ago, B-Man said:

Dem Rep. Joe Crowley: We need to talk about “compensation” for families who were separated at the border

 

 

 

Wut?

 

Steal more $$ from people who work

[DC Tom]

50 minutes ago, B-Man said:

Dem Rep. Joe Crowley: We need to talk about “compensation” for families who were separated at the border

 

 

 

Wut?

 

I think maybe he should compensate his constituents for being separated from representation.

[keepthefaith]

53 minutes ago, B-Man said:

Dem Rep. Joe Crowley: We need to talk about “compensation” for families who were separated at the border

 

 

 

Wut?

 

Well, he lost his primary to the new socialist.  Maybe he's just now realizing he needs to make a hard left turn to save face just in case he runs for Mayor of NYC or something like that in the future. 

[IDBillzFan]

2 hours ago, B-Man said:

Dem Rep. Joe Crowley: We need to talk about “compensation” for families who were separated at the border

 

 

 

Wut?

 

Dem posters here...are you good with this idea? Chime in, please.

[Doc Brown]

15 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

Dem posters here...are you good with this idea? Chime in, please.

I think he's out of his god damn mind.  This party has lost its mind on illegal immigration.  It was only twelve years ago when Obama, Hillary, and Schumer voted for a border fence.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Doc Brown

[Kelly101]

Heres tib or another one of those bots, this one lurks on breitbart:

 

Clemzilla • 6 hours ago

One really need look no further than our southern border. When a man uses family separation as a foreign policy tool, he's pretty much as vile as can be.

What should have been an absolute last resort was gleefully enacted by Executive Order, most likely because:
1. Congress would never pass such an abomination
2. Congress would, but it would take to long.

I hope the world never stops reminding itself what was done to these people.

There's one right of the top of my head. That one should be enough.

Return of service/ ace.

Later.

 

as tibs might say... tee hee

[Buffalo_Gal]

 

[Nanker]

Nothing's new.

 

[MILFHUNTER#518]

Good read, a LEGAL immigrant's take on immigration, complete with family separation.

 

https://nypost.com/2018/08/04/im-an-immigrant-and-trump-is-right-on-immigration/

 

When Guyanese-born NEIL GOUVEIA immigrated to New York at age 7, his mother made a devastating decision to leave one child behind to expedite the family exodus. Six years later, they became US citizens. Now 39, gay and newly conservative, Gouveia takes a tough, unpopular stance against those who cross the border illegally. He shared his story with The Post’s Susan Edelman.

You’ve heard news about families being separated at the US southern border. Legal immigrants have to deal with separation as well. My mother made her own “Sophie’s Choice.”

In Guyana back in 1986, an immigration officer broke the terrible news. After a three-year wait, my mother, Bassodai Gouveia, arrived at the US embassy in Georgetown to pick up visas for our family of nine to go live in America.

“Mrs. Gouveia, we can’t give you the visas,” he told my mom. “You have a sick child. If you brought her to the United States, it would be a huge government expense. And you can’t abandon her.”

When immigrants apply to come to America, they have to go through a complete physical. My sister, Vera, 9, had cerebral palsy. She couldn’t walk or talk and was mostly bed-bound. But she smiled and laughed. When I got a spanking for misbehaving, I would hug Vera, who was 17 months older than me, for comfort.

My mother walked away from the immigration officer, dejected, then suddenly turned around and went back: “Sir, I have an aunt who can take care of my child while we’re in America,” she told him, fibbing. (She actually had a friend who would look after Vera.)

It tore my mother apart, but she had to make a decision to leave Vera behind — or start the application process all over again. She had to sacrifice Vera to save the American dream for the rest of us — me and five kids from her previous marriage along with my father.

When we came to America, we lived in a basement apartment in the South Bronx. Mom and Dad had to hustle and get jobs. There was no time to relax. Dad, a customs official in Guyana, became a janitor. Mom, who had left school when her father died at age 9 to sell fruit, cleaned houses.

One day, a woman whose house she was cleaning saw her crying and asked what was wrong. My mom explained that she had to leave her daughter in Guyana. It so happened that the woman was the principal of a special-needs school. “I’m going to help you.” she promised.

The principal and my mother pleaded with local politicians to petition on her behalf. About six months later, she had a letter granting permission for Vera to enter the US. My mom went back to South America and brought her to New York.

About a month later, Vera came down with pneumonia and died. We were heartbroken, but my mom still felt vindicated. One of her greatest satisfactions in life is knowing that she never gave up on her daughter.

I learned a lot about American culture and traditions from watching sit-coms: “Three’s Company,” “Diff’rent Strokes,” “All in the Family,” “The Jeffersons.” I went to some of the worst elementary and middle schools in the South Bronx but won a scholarship to Monsignor Scanlan High School and escaped a cycle of subpar education. It gave me the discipline I was not exposed to in the public school system. I earned a bachelor’s degree in communications from St. John’s University in Queens and a master’s degree in education from Baruch College.

Those experiences shaped my “conservative” views on immigration. It took five years after we arrived in the US before we could apply for citizenship. While I was exempt because of my age, 13, mom and dad had to prepare for a naturalization test on American history and government. Mom was the nervous one — she did not have a formal education and the thought of taking an exam terrified her. She and my dad studied for hours to answer the 100 questions that could seal their fate.

On test day, an immigration officer asked 10 questions, and my parents had to answer at least six correctly. Dad passed easily, but mom barely made it. At the official ceremony, I stood with my parents, bursting with pride, as they took the citizenship oath and pledged allegiance to the US flag. At that moment, I, too, became an American citizen. If under age 18, the children of a naturalized parent are automatically granted the same status.

Today, if someone hops the US border and gives birth to a child, that child gets the exact same benefit that took my parents eight years to achieve. They waited their turn, but babies born to illegal immigrants in the US automatically become citizens. That’s a huge flaw in our immigration system.

What President Trump is pitching is already practiced in Australia and Canada. They’re very selective about who they admit. I also think it’s legitimate to separate children, initially, to verify whom they really belong to. If these people don’t have documents to prove the children belong to them, border agents have to act in their best interest. Human and child trafficking is a huge problem.

Before the 2016 presidential campaign, I didn’t fully understand how the left and right operated. I was always fed the narrative that since I was a person of color — my mother of Indian descent, my father Portuguese — an immigrant and gay that I had to follow a script: Support the Democratic Party and liberal values; conservatives were the boogeyman.
After Trump won the election, my friends instantly wanted him to fail as a leader. I would explain that if he failed, we failed. This point of view was met with heavy backlash and a barrage of insults. Anyone who showed any type of support toward Trump was deemed the enemy.

People accused me of turning my back on minorities and their struggle. I remained defiant because my parents’ journey here was not easy, and I could not betray the country that has done so much for me.

But speaking my mind became isolating. People with whom I had shared many amazing years of friendship allowed politics to divide us. Dozens of my liberal friends stopped talking to me or un-friended me on social media. I tried to suppress my political views when meeting new people. I was passive and bit my tongue on many occasions. I wasn’t being true to myself. I felt like I was in the closet all over again.

Amid the backlash, however, I did meet people who looked past politics and not only accepted me but admired that I dared to be different in liberal-dominated NYC. One of those people is my partner, Dan. Although he does not agree with many of my views, he respects them.

I’m fortunate to be a US citizen because I’m able to live a quality life and enjoy the benefits this country has to offer. I find it disheartening when people gripe about being oppressed in America, especially other immigrants. I firmly believe that living in America is a privilege. This country is truly the land of opportunities.

Neil Gouveia, 39, lives in Washington Heights and works as a higher-education fund-raiser

Edited August 4, 2018 by MILFHUNTER#518
Added content

[DC Tom]

1 hour ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Good read, a LEGAL immigrant's take on immigration, complete with family separation.

 

https://nypost.com/2018/08/04/im-an-immigrant-and-trump-is-right-on-immigration/

 

When Guyanese-born NEIL GOUVEIA immigrated to New York at age 7, his mother made a devastating decision to leave one child behind to expedite the family exodus. Six years later, they became US citizens. Now 39, gay and newly conservative, Gouveia takes a tough, unpopular stance against those who cross the border illegally. He shared his story with The Post’s Susan Edelman.

You’ve heard news about families being separated at the US southern border. Legal immigrants have to deal with separation as well. My mother made her own “Sophie’s Choice.”

In Guyana back in 1986, an immigration officer broke the terrible news. After a three-year wait, my mother, Bassodai Gouveia, arrived at the US embassy in Georgetown to pick up visas for our family of nine to go live in America.

“Mrs. Gouveia, we can’t give you the visas,” he told my mom. “You have a sick child. If you brought her to the United States, it would be a huge government expense. And you can’t abandon her.”

When immigrants apply to come to America, they have to go through a complete physical. My sister, Vera, 9, had cerebral palsy. She couldn’t walk or talk and was mostly bed-bound. But she smiled and laughed. When I got a spanking for misbehaving, I would hug Vera, who was 17 months older than me, for comfort.

My mother walked away from the immigration officer, dejected, then suddenly turned around and went back: “Sir, I have an aunt who can take care of my child while we’re in America,” she told him, fibbing. (She actually had a friend who would look after Vera.)

It tore my mother apart, but she had to make a decision to leave Vera behind — or start the application process all over again. She had to sacrifice Vera to save the American dream for the rest of us — me and five kids from her previous marriage along with my father.

When we came to America, we lived in a basement apartment in the South Bronx. Mom and Dad had to hustle and get jobs. There was no time to relax. Dad, a customs official in Guyana, became a janitor. Mom, who had left school when her father died at age 9 to sell fruit, cleaned houses.

One day, a woman whose house she was cleaning saw her crying and asked what was wrong. My mom explained that she had to leave her daughter in Guyana. It so happened that the woman was the principal of a special-needs school. “I’m going to help you.” she promised.

The principal and my mother pleaded with local politicians to petition on her behalf. About six months later, she had a letter granting permission for Vera to enter the US. My mom went back to South America and brought her to New York.

About a month later, Vera came down with pneumonia and died. We were heartbroken, but my mom still felt vindicated. One of her greatest satisfactions in life is knowing that she never gave up on her daughter.

I learned a lot about American culture and traditions from watching sit-coms: “Three’s Company,” “Diff’rent Strokes,” “All in the Family,” “The Jeffersons.” I went to some of the worst elementary and middle schools in the South Bronx but won a scholarship to Monsignor Scanlan High School and escaped a cycle of subpar education. It gave me the discipline I was not exposed to in the public school system. I earned a bachelor’s degree in communications from St. John’s University in Queens and a master’s degree in education from Baruch College.

Those experiences shaped my “conservative” views on immigration. It took five years after we arrived in the US before we could apply for citizenship. While I was exempt because of my age, 13, mom and dad had to prepare for a naturalization test on American history and government. Mom was the nervous one — she did not have a formal education and the thought of taking an exam terrified her. She and my dad studied for hours to answer the 100 questions that could seal their fate.

On test day, an immigration officer asked 10 questions, and my parents had to answer at least six correctly. Dad passed easily, but mom barely made it. At the official ceremony, I stood with my parents, bursting with pride, as they took the citizenship oath and pledged allegiance to the US flag. At that moment, I, too, became an American citizen. If under age 18, the children of a naturalized parent are automatically granted the same status.

Today, if someone hops the US border and gives birth to a child, that child gets the exact same benefit that took my parents eight years to achieve. They waited their turn, but babies born to illegal immigrants in the US automatically become citizens. That’s a huge flaw in our immigration system.

What President Trump is pitching is already practiced in Australia and Canada. They’re very selective about who they admit. I also think it’s legitimate to separate children, initially, to verify whom they really belong to. If these people don’t have documents to prove the children belong to them, border agents have to act in their best interest. Human and child trafficking is a huge problem.

Before the 2016 presidential campaign, I didn’t fully understand how the left and right operated. I was always fed the narrative that since I was a person of color — my mother of Indian descent, my father Portuguese — an immigrant and gay that I had to follow a script: Support the Democratic Party and liberal values; conservatives were the boogeyman.
After Trump won the election, my friends instantly wanted him to fail as a leader. I would explain that if he failed, we failed. This point of view was met with heavy backlash and a barrage of insults. Anyone who showed any type of support toward Trump was deemed the enemy.

People accused me of turning my back on minorities and their struggle. I remained defiant because my parents’ journey here was not easy, and I could not betray the country that has done so much for me.

But speaking my mind became isolating. People with whom I had shared many amazing years of friendship allowed politics to divide us. Dozens of my liberal friends stopped talking to me or un-friended me on social media. I tried to suppress my political views when meeting new people. I was passive and bit my tongue on many occasions. I wasn’t being true to myself. I felt like I was in the closet all over again.

Amid the backlash, however, I did meet people who looked past politics and not only accepted me but admired that I dared to be different in liberal-dominated NYC. One of those people is my partner, Dan. Although he does not agree with many of my views, he respects them.

I’m fortunate to be a US citizen because I’m able to live a quality life and enjoy the benefits this country has to offer. I find it disheartening when people gripe about being oppressed in America, especially other immigrants. I firmly believe that living in America is a privilege. This country is truly the land of opportunities.

Neil Gouveia, 39, lives in Washington Heights and works as a higher-education fund-raiser

 

Most of the immigrants I know - which is a surprising number - agree with him.

 

The few I know that don't, used to.  Until the lunatic media convinced them that they, as Hispanics, would have their naturalization cancelled and be deported.  

[Thurmal34]

Pretty clear, with plenty of documentation

 

To paraphrase:

 

“If if we take kids away, it will deter others from trying to come to the US, thru asylum or other means.” 

 

Now our country has 572 kids, some as young as 1, that they have no clue how to get back to their parents.

 

For a misdemeanor. 

 

Own it. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Thurmal34

[Nanker]

Maybe the “parents” could show up and ask for their “kids.”  

[outsidethebox]

9 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Pretty clear, with plenty of documentation

 

To paraphrase:

 

“If if we take kids away, it will deter others from trying to come to the US, thru asylum or other means.” 

 

Now our country has 572 kids, some as young as 1, that they have no clue how to get back to their parents.

 

For a misdemeanor. 

 

Own it. 

 

 

What do you suggest we do with thise 572 kids abandoned by their parents? 

Own what? Who abandoned them? Why aren't you blaming them? 

[TakeYouToTasker]

14 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Pretty clear, with plenty of documentation

 

To paraphrase:

 

“If if we take kids away, it will deter others from trying to come to the US, thru asylum or other means.” 

 

Now our country has 572 kids, some as young as 1, that they have no clue how to get back to their parents.

 

For a misdemeanor. 

 

Own it. 

 

 

 

It is a human trafficking issue.

 

The President is fighting against actual modern day slavery, and you're standing in direct vocal opposition to him.

 

In this argument, you're the man swinging the bull whip circa 1850.

 

Own it.

[BringBackOrton]

14 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Pretty clear, with plenty of documentation

 

To paraphrase:

 

“If if we take kids away, it will deter others from trying to come to the US, thru asylum or other means.” 

 

Now our country has 572 kids, some as young as 1, that they have no clue how to get back to their parents.

 

For a misdemeanor. 

 

Own it. 

 

 

Haha what!

 

Aren’t the parents looking for their kids? 

[TakeYouToTasker]

43 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Haha what!

 

Aren’t the parents looking for their kids? 

 

No, because in many cases these children weren't crossing the border with their parents.  They were either kidnapped, or sold to the traffickers by their parents who couldn't afford them, as is common.

 

So what do you do with 572 kids who you've rescued from a short lifetime of sex slavery?

 

It is a VERY good question.  

[BringBackOrton]

52 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

No, because in many cases these children weren't crossing the border with their parents.  They were either kidnapped, or sold to the traffickers by their parents who couldn't afford them, as is common.

 

So what do you do with 572 kids who you've rescued from a short lifetime of sex slavery?

 

It is a VERY good question.  

That’s my point. If they don’t know what to do with them, it means they don’t have parents looking for them.

[Doc Brown]

19 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That’s my point. If they don’t know what to do with them, it means they don’t have parents looking for them.

I think majority of the parent(s) of the children were deported and declined to bring their child with them so it's hard getting a hold of someone once they've been deported.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

I think majority of the parent(s) of the children were deported and declined to bring their child with them so it's hard getting a hold of someone once they've been deported.

They have phones don’t they? An embassy? A government?

 

I can’t imagine these 500 kids will be in the US for 20 years.

[Doc Brown]

12 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

They have phones don’t they? An embassy? A government?

 

I can’t imagine these 500 kids will be in the US for 20 years.

I don't know the answer to that.  How many of those parents want their children back?  What geographical and communication barriers do the parents who were deported face who do want them back?  How many of these children's parents have raised red flags or are criminals making it unsafe to reunite them?  

[DC Tom]

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I don't know the answer to that.  How many of those parents want their children back?  What geographical and communication barriers do the parents who were deported face who do want them back?  How many of these children's parents have raised red flags or are criminals making it unsafe to reunite them?  

 

The law says they have to be reunited with their parent or nearest family or legal guardian in the US.  That's been that way for years - you detain children only as long as it takes to find family or a legal guardian in the US.

 

And it is a bureaucratic activity independent of the elected administration, and rarely takes this long. 

[Doc Brown]

32 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

The law says they have to be reunited with their parent or nearest family or legal guardian in the US.  That's been that way for years - you detain children only as long as it takes to find family or a legal guardian in the US.

 

And it is a bureaucratic activity independent of the elected administration, and rarely takes this long. 

Are you telling me that differing institutional objectives, poor coordination between different agencies, and poor tracking policies are making it difficult to reunite these children?  I for one am shocked at the level of ineptitude by the federal bureaucracy that is usually so efficient.

[BringBackOrton]

55 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I don't know the answer to that.  How many of those parents want their children back?  What geographical and communication barriers do the parents who were deported face who do want them back?  How many of these children's parents have raised red flags or are criminals making it unsafe to reunite them?  

2/3 of those problems sound like they are in better hands without their parents.

[Koko78]

18 hours ago, Thurmal34 said:

Pretty clear, with plenty of documentation

 

To paraphrase:

 

“If if we take kids away, it will deter others from trying to come to the US, thru asylum or other means.” 

 

Now our country has 572 kids, some as young as 1, that they have no clue how to get back to their parents.

 

For a misdemeanor. 

 

Own it. 

 

 

 

To paraphrase:

 

Thurmal, when did you stop beating your wife?

 

Your premise is, once again, flawed and idiotic.

 

Own it.

[DC Tom]

39 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Are you telling me that differing institutional objectives, poor coordination between different agencies, and poor tracking policies are making it difficult to reunite these children?  I for one am shocked at the level of ineptitude by the federal bureaucracy that is usually so efficient.

 

No, I'm telling you that they already have procedures in place, and have been doing this for more than ten years or more.  Releasing detained children to the care of an identified caretaker is not a "new" problem - it's an already-solved one.  

 

What do you think that means?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

12 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Are you telling me that differing institutional objectives, poor coordination between different agencies, and poor tracking policies are making it difficult to reunite these children?  I for one am shocked at the level of ineptitude by the federal bureaucracy that is usually so efficient.

 

Right? And to think that there are people who want that very same government to manage healthcare!

 

[row_33]

11 hours ago, DC Tom said:

 

No, I'm telling you that they already have procedures in place, and have been doing this for more than ten years or more.  Releasing detained children to the care of an identified caretaker is not a "new" problem - it's an already-solved one.  

 

What do you think that means?

 

You are forgetting the self-righteous emotions Doc has swirling around his soul over these unfortunate people whom he will never meet or do anything but type in behalf of with indignation at a government he will never meet.