Why Is Our Government Putting People In Cages?

Deranged Rhino · July 8, 2018

3 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

What did I say that wasn’t true?

please feel free to fact check me.

6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

So for the record, you do not believe they are being "treated as humanly and compassionately as possible" today?

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

6 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

So for the record, you do not believe they are being "treated as humanly and compassionately as possible" today?

I honestly don’t know exactly how they are being treated.

But yes, I’d say that ripping kids from their parents arms on purpose, instead of housing them together, is being cruel on purpose.

That is the whole point of this - to deter immigrants from ever trying to come here in the first place. Jeff Sessions even said it himself “if you don’t want your kids taken from you, don’t come here”.

Edited July 8, 2018 by BillsFan4

3rdnlng · July 8, 2018

3 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

What did I say that wasn’t true?

please feel free to fact check me.

It's your job to provide some basis for your conclusions. Got a link?

outsidethebox · July 8, 2018

2 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

What did I say that wasn’t true?

please feel free to fact check me.

Everything you wrote is a lie you f'n simp. You have no morals, lieing means nothing to you. You !@#$in snowflakes need to go!

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

Just now, westside said:

Everything you wrote is a lie you f'n simp. You have no morals, lieing means nothing to you. You !@#$in snowflakes need to go!

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/

so so in other words, you have no actual argument against what I said,but because you don’t like it, I am lying...

Edited July 8, 2018 by BillsFan4

3rdnlng · July 8, 2018

Just now, BillsFan4 said:

I honestly don’t know exactly how they are being treated.

But yes, I’d say that ripping kids from their parents arms on purpose, instead of housing them together, is being cruel on purpose.

That is the whole point of this - to deter immigrants from ever trying to come here in the first place. Jeff Seasions even said it himself “if you don’t want your kids taken from you, don’t come here”.

Uh, what does the law say about housing criminal parents and their children together?

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

Uh, what does the law say about housing criminal parents and their children together?

You talking about what happened under Geoege Bush?

outsidethebox · July 8, 2018

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/

so so in other words, you have no actual argument against what I said,but because you don’t like it, I am lying...

You're full of **** and you know it. This is the only way we should be dealing with you and the rest of the lieing simps on the left.

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

Just now, westside said:

You're full of **** and you know it. This is the only way we should be dealing with you and the rest of the lieing simps on the left.

http://time.com/5314769/family-separation-policy-donald-trump/

Still waiting for a source.

Sorry you you can’t handle the truth.

kind of sad, actually.

3rdnlng · July 8, 2018

3 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/

so so in other words, you have no actual argument against what I said,but because you don’t like it, I am lying...

Maybe you should read what you link to. That photo was from 2014. Even the liberal Snopes admitted that.

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

Typical trump supporter. (west side)

say something they don’t like and they stick their fingers in their ears and yell “la la la la la”

2 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said:

Maybe you should read what you link to. That photo was from 2014. Even the liberal Snopes admitted that.

Isn’t that what we were talking about?

the child camps that happened under Obama?

and I have never once seen snopes lie

Edited July 8, 2018 by BillsFan4

3rdnlng · July 8, 2018

2 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Typical trump supporter. (west side)

say something they don’t like and they stick their fingers in their ears and yell “la la la la la”

Isn’t that what we were talking about?

the child camps that happened under Obama?

You know damn well you were obfuscating and spewing MSM lies. Yes, I am now going to run away from you. Not because I can't defend my position but because you either are too stupid to read what you link or discuss things honestly, or are just a !@#$ing liar. Go waste someone else's time.

Deranged Rhino · July 8, 2018

25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I honestly don’t know exactly how they are being treated.

But yet you're definite on the fact today they're being treated purposefully less humane than before?

How do you square that logic? Are you sure you're not reacting to emotionally manipulative news coverage of a topic and story you admit you don't know much about? Or do you really believe that Trump's administration is going out of their way to treat children inhumanely?

25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

But yes, I’d say that ripping kids from their parents arms on purpose, instead of housing them together, is being cruel on purpose.

This is no longer happening. In fact, it's the minority (the extreme minority) of cases. 90% of the photo and video and audio evidence used in the media the past few weeks to drive that stake through your heart were compiled or taken from previous administrations. Why do they suddenly care now? Why are they making you outraged enough to come into the basement here to rant about a topic you admit you don't have all the information on yet you're definitive that Trump is cruelly mistreating children?

Could it be that you're being gaslighted?

25 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

That is the whole point of this - to deter immigrants from ever trying to come here in the first place. Jeff Sessions even said it himself “if you don’t want your kids taken from you, don’t come here”.

Because the law states that if you break the law, you are detained. And they cannot detain children and adults - especially when the identities of those adults and children cannot be confirmed - in the same facilities. It's the law of the land. Not the law of Trump.

You have all this compassion for how cruelly the kids are being treated (in your mind), I wonder how you feel about the parents who pay smugglers to bring their kids across the border, marching them through hostile and dangerous terrain, exposing them to child predators and sexual brutality along the way. Is that humane on the parents' part? Is it not human to secure the children and determine who's legitimately here with their parents and who was brought here by smugglers?

Are you aware of the major problems of human trafficking across the southern border, particularly of vulnerable minors who are often sold off once they cross the border?

I'm guessing you aren't aware of this, or dismiss it as propaganda. So let's try another tact:

How do you feel about the 400,000+ American kids living in brutal conditions inside the United States in state run institutions and foster programs? Why doesn't their suffering and abuse merit the type of political activism and media outcry we're seeing on this topic - a topic which has been an issue for MULTIPLE administrations? Could there not be an extreme partisan bent to this whole thing?

Or nah?

20 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

http://time.com/5314769/family-separation-policy-donald-trump/

Still waiting for a source.

Sorry you you can’t handle the truth.

kind of sad, actually.

You literally linked from snopes (a disinformation outlet, not a source of anything factual) and time who just got busted politicizing this issue with a fake picture.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.0555da2aaa2f

You might not realize you're being manipulated, but you are. By people who think your'e too stupid to notice.

20 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

and I have never once seen snopes lie

Only because you've never looked:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4730092/Snopes-brink-founder-accused-fraud-lying.html

Edited July 8, 2018 by Deranged Rhino

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

52 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

But yet you're definite on the fact today they're being treated purposefully less humane than before?

How do you square that logic? Are you sure you're not reacting to emotionally manipulative news coverage of a topic and story you admit you don't know much about? Or do you really believe that Trump's administration is going out of their way to treat children inhumanely?

This is no longer happening. In fact, it's the minority (the extreme minority) of cases. 90% of the photo and video and audio evidence used in the media the past few weeks to drive that stake through your heart were compiled or taken from previous administrations. Why do they suddenly care now? Why are they making you outraged enough to come into the basement here to rant about a topic you admit you don't have all the information on yet you're definitive that Trump is cruelly mistreating children?

Could it be that you're being gaslighted?

Because the law states that if you break the law, you are detained. And they cannot detain children and adults - especially when the identities of those adults and children cannot be confirmed - in the same facilities. It's the law of the land. Not the law of Trump.

You have all this compassion for how cruelly the kids are being treated (in your mind), I wonder how you feel about the parents who pay smugglers to bring their kids across the border, marching them through hostile and dangerous terrain, exposing them to child predators and sexual brutality along the way. Is that humane on the parents' part? Is it not human to secure the children and determine who's legitimately here with their parents and who was brought here by smugglers?

Are you aware of the major problems of human trafficking across the southern border, particularly of vulnerable minors who are often sold off once they cross the border?

I'm guessing you aren't aware of this, or dismiss it as propaganda. So let's try another tact:

How do you feel about the 400,000+ American kids living in brutal conditions inside the United States in state run institutions and foster programs? Why doesn't their suffering and abuse merit the type of political activism and media outcry we're seeing on this topic - a topic which has been an issue for MULTIPLE administrations? Could there not be an extreme partisan bent to this whole thing?

Or nah?

You literally linked from snopes (a disinformation outlet, not a source of anything factual) and time who just got busted politicizing this issue with a fake picture.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.0555da2aaa2f

You might not realize you're being manipulated, but you are. By people who think your'e too stupid to notice.

Only because you've never looked:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4730092/Snopes-brink-founder-accused-fraud-lying.html

Again, yes purposely stripping infants and children from their parents arms is cruel, even though it’s not happening anymore because trump caved to the outrage.

Sessions and Kelly both came out and said they were doing it as a deterrent.

how can you not see that Trump’s policy (not Democrats) of ripping away kids was a cruel thing done on purpose to deter?

It is not the same as what was happening under Obama.

BTW, Crossing the border is not a felony. It is a misdemeanor. Children didn’t have to be taken away.

Also, I would never assume to know what terrible circumstances these parents face that would drive them to send their kids to the US alone.

Obviously they are not choosing to do it to be cruel. They are desperate to send their kids somewhere where they son have a better life.

And why why do you just assume that the other stuff you listed doesn’t bother me? It does. I have a close friend who works with child services and what he sees on a daily basis is awful.

Oh and what does that snopes story you linked have to do with the actual information they put out?

It it was about a divorce and trying to take control of the company. Unless I just missed it, I didn’t see anything about any of the actual information they put out being false.

I strongly disagree that snopes is a disinformation outlet. I have seen them post many factual articles on both sides of the aisle (even defending lies about Trump).

That washington post link didn’t have anything about snopes, either. It was about that picture in Time magazine.

And yes, that picture was inaccurate about what happened to that 1specific child.

But does that one picture change the fact that kids were indeed being taken from their parents?

And Time corrected the story once they found out. That is what good news outlets do. They print a correction.

From your link -

Quote

Time also has added a correction to an online article and gallery that ran Tuesday, before the cover was released: “The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she [was] taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together

Quote

Moore, the photographer, told The Post in an email that Time corrected the story after he made a request minutes after it was published. He said that the picture “is a straightforward and honest image” showing a “distressed little girl” whose mother was being searched by border officials.

“I believe this image has raised awareness to the zero-tolerance policy of this administration. Having covered immigration for Getty Images for 10 years, this photograph for me is part of a much larger story,” Moore said, adding later: “The image showed a moment in time at the border, but the emotion in the little girl’s distress has ignited a response. As a photojournalist, my job is to inform and report what is happening, but I also think it is important to humanize an issue that is often reported in statistics.”

Quote

Moore said the woman picked up her daughter, they walked into the van, and the van drove away. When he took the picture, he said he did not know whether the mother and her daughter would be separated, “but it was a very real possibility,” given the slew of family separations carried out by the Trump administration.

I am out though. I will leave you all to do your thing.

Edited July 8, 2018 by BillsFan4

Deranged Rhino · July 8, 2018

1 minute ago, BillsFan4 said:

Again, yes purposely stripping infants and children from their parents arms is cruel, even though it’s not happening anymore because trump caved to the outrage.

Sessions and Kelly both came out and said they were doing it as a deterrent.

Trump even baaically said, don’t come. We don’t want you (under (almost) any circumstances.

how can you not see that HIS policy (not Democrats) of ripping away kids was a cruel thing done on purpose to deter?

It is not the same as what was happening under Obama.

You're conflating policy and enforcing the law as written. POTUS is not the legislative branch. That's Congress. The law of the land states that when you are arrested, children and parents are separated. Trump's stance was, if you don't like this, don't come and, to Congress, if you don't like this do your job and write better laws.

This is a key fact you're brushing aside because you've been emotionally manipulated into believing Trump is purposefully and cruelly treating children poorly - despite admitting you don't know all the facts on the issue. How could a rational person, not driven by partisanship or emotional manipulation make such contradictory statements?

3 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

BTW, Crossing the border is not a felony. It is a misdemeanor. Children didn’t have to be taken away.

Incorrect, read the law - but that aside. You're advocating that children and adults - whose identities and relations we cannot confirm, should be kept together? What if that adult is a trafficker? What if he's a smuggler and not the kid's parent? Wouldn't it be MORE cruel to keep the kid enclosed in a pen with a sexual predator?

Or nah?

4 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Also, I would never assume to know what terrible circumstances these parents face that would drive them to send their kids to the US alone.

Obviously they are not choosing to do it to be cruel. They are desperate to send their kids somewhere where they son have a better life.

Wouldn't the best, safest way to do this as a parent to enter through a port of entry rather than using coyotes and smugglers to illegally enter? If a family enters through a legal port of entry - which are clearly marked and known - they aren't separated. They aren't arrested. They are put in the system for asylum.

So isn't it more humane to WARN parents about the dangers of what will happen if they try to skirt the system with smugglers, traffickers, and coyotes? That's the intent of "zero policy". It was to enforce the law equally across the border to deter parents from risking their kids' lives needlessly.

8 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

And why why do you just assume that the other stuff you listed doesn’t bother me? It does. I have a close friend who works with child services and what he sees on a daily basis is awful.

I've never seen you down here voicing those concerns. But yet you're down here, voicing your concerns over a problem, percentage wise, that is DWARFED by the issues facing our own children in our own federal and state systems. That you're doing so at the height of the media pushing this manipulation on the public, is telling (to me).

That's not to say you're an uncaring person. Not at all what I'm getting at. I'm trying to get you to understand and recognize why you felt compelled to come down here now, to discuss this topic now.

We are at war today. It's a (dis)information war. The people pushing your buttons do not have your best interest in heart, nor do they have these childrens' best interest in heart. That's the point.

10 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Oh and what does that snopes story you linked have to do with the actual information they put out? Anyone going through a messy divorce can’t possibly print a factual news story?

It it was about a divorce and trying to take control of the company. Unless I just missed it, I didn’t see anything about any of the actual information they put out being false.

I strongly disagree that snopes is a disinformation outlet. I have seen them post many factual articles on both sides of the aisle (even defending lies about Trump).

That story is but the start of the rabbit hole. Snopes is proven disinformation. Look deeper. They sold out to media matters. Look into who media matters is (David Brock). Look into his track record of propaganda and honesty. Look where his loyalties lie - it's not to the truth.

But if you still don't believe me ask yourself this: in today's world of fake news, do you really think there's an all knowing, completely honest and unbiased oracle of information out there that people can just type in a question and get a simple "true or false" answer? Of course not. Only people who believe such a thing exists are those who WANT to believe the bias that's being pushed.

Snopes is a TERRIBLE source. Do better, not for me but for yourself.

13 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

And yes, that picture was inaccurate about what happened to that 1specific child.

But does that one picture change the fact that kids were indeed being taken from their parents?

And Time corrected the story once they found out. That is what good news outlets do. They print a correction.

THEY LEFT THE PICTURE UP AND DIDN'T ISSUE A CORRECTION, THEY DOUBLED DOWN BY MAKING THE ARGUMENT YOU JUST REGURGITATED.

If you think that's honest media, then sorry to say you've been brainwashed badly. You need a full detox.

Foxx · July 8, 2018

2 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

http://time.com/5314769/family-separation-policy-donald-trump/

Still waiting for a source.

Sorry you you can’t handle the truth.

kind of sad, actually.

yeah, not so much.

Snopes has a decidedly liberal slant and have been caught spinning their fact checking to fit within those bounds on numerous occasions.

1 hour ago, BillsFan4 said:

... I am out though. I will leave you all to do your thing.

personally, i wish you would stay.

i don't consider myself to be aligned with any one particular dogma but if one were to view my perspectives, they would probably say that i lean towards a conservative mindset. however as i said, i take what works for me and value greatly a well thought out perspective other than my own. whether i agree with them or not, your arguments are generally well conceived and rational. i would rather take in something i may disagree with, than to reside in an echo chamber.

there is no quicker way to the slaughter house than the echo chamber.....

do reconsider.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Foxx

Deranged Rhino · July 8, 2018

45 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I am out though. I will leave you all to do your thing.

14 minutes ago, Foxx said:

do reconsider.

+1 :beer:

BillsFan4 · July 8, 2018

17 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

You're conflating policy and enforcing the law as written. POTUS is not the legislative branch. That's Congress. The law of the land states that when you are arrested, children and parents are separated. Trump's stance was, if you don't like this, don't come and, to Congress, if you don't like this do your job and write better laws.

This is a key fact you're brushing aside because you've been emotionally manipulated into believing Trump is purposefully and cruelly treating children poorly - despite admitting you don't know all the facts on the issue. How could a rational person, not driven by partisanship or emotional manipulation make such contradictory statements?

Incorrect, read the law - but that aside. You're advocating that children and adults - whose identities and relations we cannot confirm, should be kept together? What if that adult is a trafficker? What if he's a smuggler and not the kid's parent? Wouldn't it be MORE cruel to keep the kid enclosed in a pen with a sexual predator?

Or nah?

Wouldn't the best, safest way to do this as a parent to enter through a port of entry rather than using coyotes and smugglers to illegally enter? If a family enters through a legal port of entry - which are clearly marked and known - they aren't separated. They aren't arrested. They are put in the system for asylum.

So isn't it more humane to WARN parents about the dangers of what will happen if they try to skirt the system with smugglers, traffickers, and coyotes? That's the intent of "zero policy". It was to enforce the law equally across the border to deter parents from risking their kids' lives needlessly.

I've never seen you down here voicing those concerns. But yet you're down here, voicing your concerns over a problem, percentage wise, that is DWARFED by the issues facing our own children in our own federal and state systems. That you're doing so at the height of the media pushing this manipulation on the public, is telling (to me).

That's not to say you're an uncaring person. Not at all what I'm getting at. I'm trying to get you to understand and recognize why you felt compelled to come down here now, to discuss this topic now.

We are at war today. It's a (dis)information war. The people pushing your buttons do not have your best interest in heart, nor do they have these childrens' best interest in heart. That's the point.

That story is but the start of the rabbit hole. Snopes is proven disinformation. Look deeper. They sold out to media matters. Look into who media matters is (David Brock). Look into his track record of propaganda and honesty. Look where his loyalties lie - it's not to the truth.

But if you still don't believe me ask yourself this: in today's world of fake news, do you really think there's an all knowing, completely honest and unbiased oracle of information out there that people can just type in a question and get a simple "true or false" answer? Of course not. Only people who believe such a thing exists are those who WANT to believe the bias that's being pushed.

Snopes is a TERRIBLE source. Do better, not for me but for yourself.

THEY LEFT THE PICTURE UP AND DIDN'T ISSUE A CORRECTION, THEY DOUBLED DOWN BY MAKING THE ARGUMENT YOU JUST REGURGITATED.

If you think that's honest media, then sorry to say you've been brainwashed badly. You need a full detox.

I like having civil conversations. And am always open to new information.

It was the people saying that I am purposely twisting facts and lying, without actually refuting anything I said, that made this whole effort seem pointless to me.

Thnaks for for the kind words @Foxx and Deranged.

Ok, so...

This is my understanding of everything going on.

While the law may state that you can separate children form their parents, This “zero tolerance” policy is new and was enacted by the trump administration.

As far as I understand it, they are not absolutely required by law to separate children from their families. That is something they decided to do. It is a deterrent policy, and they have said so themselves.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/illegal-immigration-border-prosecutions-families-separated/index.html

Quote

It has long been a misdemeanor federal offense to be caught illegally entering the US, punishable by up to six months in prison, but the administration has not always referred everyone caught for prosecution. Those apprehended were swiftly put into immigration proceedings and, unless they met the threshold to pursue a valid asylum claim, can be quickly deported from the country.

The current DHS plan makes no special arrangements for those who claim asylum when apprehended. While they will be allowed to pursue their claims and could eventually be found to have a legitimate right to live in the US, they could still already have a conviction for illegal entry.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/politics/fact-check-republicans-family-separations-border.html

Quote

In 2016, the Ninth Circuit of Appeals ruled that the Flores settlement “unambiguously applies both to minors who are accompanied and unaccompanied by their parents.” It also overturned a Federal District Court’s decision that the government must also release the parents.

Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced a “zero tolerance” policy in April, stating that “our goal is to prosecute every case that is brought to us” — thus leading to the detention of migrant parents.

In other words, without the Trump administration’s new enforcement policy, the Flores settlement — and subsequent rulings clarifying its scope — alone would not have caused family separation at the border. As The New York Times reported last month:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44503514

Quote

Over a recent six-week period, nearly 2,000 children were separated from their parents after illegally crossing the border, figures released on Friday said.

Mr Sessions said those entering the US irregularly would be criminally prosecuted, a change to a long-standing policy of charging most of those crossing for the first time with a misdemeanour offence.

Quote

This is really extreme, it's nothing like we have seen before," said Michelle Brané, director of Migrant Rights and Justice at the Women's Refugee Commission, a New York-based non-governmental organisation that is helping some of these people.

Quote

In recent days, a former Walmart in Texas has been converted into a detention centre for immigrant children.

Officials have also announced plans to erect tent cities to hold hundreds more children in the Texas desert where temperatures regularly reach 40C (105F).

(that was not happening under Obama, they were kept as comfortable as possible, in air conditioning. And were even given medical treatment)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/14/us/politics/fact-check-republicans-family-separations-border.html

Quote

The White House and prominent Republicans in Congress cited a 1997 court settlement to justify separating migrant children from parents who illegally enter the United States. But the settlement did not require the government to break up families, and the practice has spurred protests against the Trump administration, a rebuke from the United Nations and a court challenge.

Quote

This is misleading.

Hundreds of migrant children have been separated from their parents at the border since October, but there is no decades-old law or court decision that requires this.

Ms. Sanders, Mr. Ryan and Mr. Grassley are referring to a class-action lawsuit that was initially brought against the Reagan administration, as Flores v. Meese, and settled under the Clinton administration in 1997, as Flores v. Reno.

Quote

Under Flores, the government has three options: releasing families together, passing a law that would allow for family detention or breaking up the families. The Trump administration has so far chosen the third option.

And yes, I know immigrants were detained under Obama, but the circumstances were different, as I already described, and all children were not separated from their parents. Many/most were housed together.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/fact-check-did-obama-administration-separate-families-n884856

Quote

The idea that this is simply a continuation of an Obama-era practice is "preposterous," said Denise Gilman, director of the Immigration Clinic at the University of Texas Law School. "There were occasionally instances where you would find a separated family — maybe like one every six months to a year — and that was usually because there had been some actual individualized concern that there was a trafficking situation or that the parent wasn’t actually the parent."

Once custody concerns were resolved, "there was pretty immediately reunification," Gilman told NBC News. "There were not 2,000 kids in two months — it’s not the same universe," she added.

Quote

Jeh Johnson, who served as homeland security secretary under Obama, said he did not separate children and parents despite the enormous surges of unaccompanied minors and families that came across the border in 2014 fleeing Central American violence.

"In three years on my watch, we probably deported or returned or repatriated about a million people to enforce border security. One of the things I could not do is separate a child from his or her mother, or literally pull a mother from his or her arms," Johnson said on MSNBC last week. “I just couldn’t do it.”

Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, Cecilia Muñoz, said the Obama administration did consider a similar policy, but determined it heartless.

"The agencies were surfacing every possible idea,” Muñoz told The New York Times in an interview recently. "I do remember looking at each other like, ‘We’re not going to do this, are we?’ We spent five minutes thinking it through and concluded that it was a bad idea. The morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are."

Quote

The Obama administration did detain families together — some indefinitely — in hopes of deterring future migrants back in 2014, earning protests and public outrage at the time.

I am also not going to just assume that every child that comes here is coming with a trafficker, therefore they shouldn’t be housed together. That seems extreme, and way over-paranoid to me. There may be some cases of that, but I’d think that’s not the norm.

In fact, even parents that have shown documentation that those ARE their children, were still having their kids taken from them.

Also, It’s not as easy as just coming legally, either. Even some legal immigrants trying to enter through the legal ports are being turned away (and this is not just one isolated story...). They are making it as difficult as possible for any immigrant, legal or illegal, to come here -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/at-the-us-border-asylum-seekers-fleeing-violence-are-told-to-come-back-later/2018/06/12/79a12718-6e4d-11e8-afd5-778aca903bbe_story.html?utm_term=.24060cd6722f

Quote

Trump administration officials have, in recent weeks, adopted a carrot-and-stick approach to asylum applicants. They have told those who cross the border illegally and make asylum requests that they will face criminal prosecution, but that if they go through the official border crossings, their applications will be processed. Yet in several cities along the border, asylum seekers who follow those instructions are turned away and told to return later.

And no, I don’t think that there is one all knowing fact checking source. But Snopes is absolutely a resource IMO. They link to all the sources they use, so you can go through and check their sources + fact check it yourself.

That is one thing I always try my best to do - find more than 1 (legit) source to confirm something.

Oh, and just FYI - I don’t really know why I decided to come in here today. I guess I just wanted to see how some of this stuff was being spun by what I know to be a very conservative leaning group in here. This was the only thread I clicked on. If I had clicked on a different thread and seen something I disagreed with, I probably would have addressed that instead. It’s not because I am overly worked up over this issue and am being played by the MSM as you seem to think (you are jumping to some wild conclusions IMO). In fact, I almost never even turn on any of those news channels.

But There is a LOT of stuff going on with this current administration that I disagree with. Same goes for what went on under G. Bush. As well as some stuff under Obama too.

I hardly ever come in here, though. That is why you don’t see me arguing against a lot of these other things. But a lot of that stuff bothers me.

I don’t want this to come off the wrong way, and sound like I’m bragging or trying to come off “high and mighty”. That is not at all my intention in saying this. But just to give you an idea of how much I do actually care about some of these other issues -

I volunteered at “Big Brothers Big Sisters of Erie county” for years.

I still try to volunteer at homeless shelters when I have time, and regularly donate food, clothing, sanitary goods, etc.

I volunteered at “Alianza Latina” on the west side of Buffalo up until it closed.

Volunteered at the (needle) exchange in that same building there, too (I have family with addiction problems, so that one was personal)

I try my best to be an active member of my community, and to not just talk about it but do something, when I can.

Anyway, sorry if I came off as uncivil before. That wasn’t my intention.

IDBillzFan · July 8, 2018

On 7/7/2018 at 7:49 AM, baskin said:

Should have just tattooed their arms....

Such awesomeness. What you need to do is bring your message to a wider audience. Go to FB. Write a letter to the editor. Spread it far and wide. Let everyone know how Trump is like Hitler.

It's such as winning position, I'm sure you will have many friends! :lol:

boyst · July 8, 2018

5 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

Such awesomeness. What you need to do is bring your message to a wider audience. Go to FB. Write a letter to the editor. Spread it far and wide. Let everyone know how Trump is like Hitler.

It's such as winning position, I'm sure you will have many friends!

You're getting smacked around a little on this by DR. But it's a good argument.

Questions:

1) the separation of families: How are we determining who is a family unit and who is not?

2) the children coming across alone has skyrocketed in the last years making cases increase

3) why do you care that these children go to tent cities? Do you forget they come from a much hotter region, lacking AC, amenities, and such things that children complain about in the cold dorms?

Also, do you care that 20+% of American children, amounting to more than 15mm, live in poverty? Many without health insurance, AC, Netflix, Amazon Prime or parents who can legally drive? Where is that outrage?

4) you realize that you look like a clown to start stomping your feet now because your [wo]man didn't win, right? These complaints were not made when Obama, Bush, Clinton and others were in office; though, Bush had us all looking at Iraq and we thought he was friendly with Mexico because he and Fox met up and being a Texas dude.

Seriously, the temper tantrum look is all you hold when you just now start to come out and complain disirregardless of how factual any argument you may present or carry.

DC Tom · July 8, 2018

6 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

While the law may state that you can separate children form their parents, This “zero tolerance” policy is new and was enacted by the trump administration.

As far as I understand it, they are not absolutely required by law to separate children from their families. That is something they decided to do. It is a deterrent policy, and they have said so themselves.

Oversimplified, and incomplete.

1) the "zero tolerance" policy is in reality a policy of ceasing to rely on the "honor system" for illegal immigrants to show up for their hearings. Historically, a large number of border crossers have been release on their own recognizance after apprehension at the border, with them promising to show up for their hearings. Needless to say, this sort of "pinky swear" due process doesn't historically work too well.

2) As illegal immigrants are now detained until their hearings as a matter of due process, the Flores Agreement from some 20 years ago requires children be released from detention "without unnecessary delay" to the "least restrictive" environment available. Children effectively can't be detained if there's other options, which include "licensed programs willing to accept custody." That last quoted part being important, as it illustrates the unworkability of the Flores Agreement: children't can't be detained except, as a last resort, in a program willing to detain them. :wacko:

3) It's not some monolithic government program at work here. Illegal immigrants are detained by CBP, handed over to ICE, who detains the adults on behalf of DOJ, and hands the children over to Health and Human Services (the "licensed program willing to accept custody"). It is, unsurprisingly, a complete cluster-!@#$.

And important to note: the Trump Administration is doing this specifically to apply pressure to Congress to amend immigration law, human trafficking law, and the Flores Agreement. The Administration is implementing the law as literally as possible, with the specific intent of highlighting how byzantine and unworkable it's become, to motivate Congress to reform immigration law as they've been promising for as long as I can remember.

And also, there's a very significant anti-trafficking element to this. Far more children are being rescued from trafficking than separated from parents by this policy.

23 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

You're getting smacked around a little on this by DR. But it's a good argument.

Questions:

1) the separation of families: How are we determining who is a family unit and who is not?

Detention and investigation.

The bigger question is, how were we doing it before? Just assuming every adult with a child was a "family unit?" Pinky-swearing?

That people are arguing that previous policy of not doing complete investigation of such was fair and workable should be cause for concern, particularly for anyone who's been reading Greg's posts. A few days ago, they started DNA testing to reunite children with parents - if Greg's "global child trafficking conspiracy" theory is true, we'll see a slate of stories decrying that DNA testing as a civil rights' violation by the middle of the month.

Koko78 · July 8, 2018

3 hours ago, Deranged Rhino said:

Wouldn't the best, safest way to do this as a parent to enter through a port of entry rather than using coyotes and smugglers to illegally enter? If a family enters through a legal port of entry - which are clearly marked and known - they aren't separated. They aren't arrested. They are put in the system for asylum.

C'mon man, you know the left doesn't give two Schiffs about these kids, and they never have. The poor kids only matter when there's something to be outraged about. Of course, I could be wrong and BF4 could actually be advocating for locking children up in adult detention centers with sex traffickers/pedophiles. Because it's all about the children. Several times per day.

You'll notice that not one of these liberal asshats gave a crap about these poor kids when Obama, Bush, and Clinton were doing the same exact thing (or being outraged that Obama was putting them in tiny dog kennels.)

Edited July 8, 2018 by Koko78

B-Man · July 8, 2018

,

.

BillsFan4 · July 9, 2018

6 hours ago, DC Tom said:

.

Oversimplified, and incomplete.

1) the "zero tolerance" policy is in reality a policy of ceasing to rely on the "honor system" for illegal immigrants to show up for their hearings. Historically, a large number of border crossers have been release on their own recognizance after apprehension at the border, with them promising to show up for their hearings. Needless to say, this sort of "pinky swear" due process doesn't historically work too well.

2) As illegal immigrants are now detained until their hearings as a matter of due process, the Flores Agreement from some 20 years ago requires children be released from detention "without unnecessary delay" to the "least restrictive" environment available. Children effectively can't be detained if there's other options, which include "licensed programs willing to accept custody." That last quoted part being important, as it illustrates the unworkability of the Flores Agreement: children't can't be detained except, as a last resort, in a program willing to detain them.

3) It's not some monolithic government program at work here. Illegal immigrants are detained by CBP, handed over to ICE, who detains the adults on behalf of DOJ, and hands the children over to Health and Human Services (the "licensed program willing to accept custody"). It is, unsurprisingly, a complete cluster-!@#$.

And important to note: the Trump Administration is doing this specifically to apply pressure to Congress to amend immigration law, human trafficking law, and the Flores Agreement. The Administration is implementing the law as literally as possible, with the specific intent of highlighting how byzantine and unworkable it's become, to motivate Congress to reform immigration law as they've been promising for as long as I can remember.

And also, there's a very significant anti-trafficking element to this. Far more children are being rescued from trafficking than separated from parents by this policy.

Good post. I agree with a lot of it. Just so I am clear, I was never arguing that things were all peachy-keen under previous administrations and that no changes needed to be made. There were obviously a lot of issues with the way immigration is handled, and immigration law, some of which you did a great job of laying out.

just a couple things -

1) agreed, and I realize that. But I was just talking about how it was the zero tolerance policy as originally issued, and them choosing to prosecute every immigrant they could without exception, that led to all of these children being separated from their parents at the border.

It was that zero tolerance policy that gave the direction to prosecute every immigrant they possibly could with pretty much no exceptions - whether they’re alone or with families, first time offenders with no criminal history etc. No extenuating circumstances would be taken into account like with previous administrations.

The Trump administration choosing to prosecute every family they could, without exception, is what led to them having to detain the parents and seperate them from their kids.

It wasn’t something that the Trump administration was helpless to prevent as they claim. If Trump hated seeing these kids taken from their families so much, he could have done something about it long before all the public outcry forced him to.

In fact, he could have chose not to handle this situation in such a manner in the first place and he wouldn’t have even had to sign some bogus executive order to bail himself out.

Basically, the way I see it, Trump chose to apply the law as harshly as he possibly could. Obama did not.

2) agreed. My point there was that, again, it was a trump policy, and not the Flores agreement, that made these family separations such a wide spread occurrence.

The way I see it They basically used the Flores agreement to issue a policy that would seperate kids from their parents as a deterrent to entering the US.

And that children were being detained, in part, to try and get rid of the Flores agreement (which republicans proposed) and by extension (depending on what they replaced it with) the law stopping them from detaining these immigrants for more than 20 days. As well as the requirements for what conditions these children must be held in

BTW I didn’t agree with it when Obama used the Flores agreement to detain whole families as a deterrent either.

3) agreed again. It’s been a cluster **** for a long time, and I’m sure unscrupulous things have been happening for just as long.

But there is a change in the way this administration is directing them to act on the laws.

Agree with your note, too. That was part of my point. They are doing this purposely, as a deterrent. They don’t Have To do this. They are doing it to try and put pressure on Congress to implement Trump’s immigration law changes.

I completely disagree with it. IMO Children should not be used in this fashion. It’s wrong, no matter who does it, Democrat, republican or other.

I don’t agree with some of the things that happened under Obama either, as far as immigration goes. There were advocacy groups that came after him too. He tried to toughen immigration stance, and ram cases through with an expedited legal process, and it was a disaster. It made it very hard for some immigrants to get their due process for asylum claims.

Just because I said that there were key differences in the way things are being handled doesn’t mean I agree with everything done by previous administrations.

There are are key differences though.

Obama absolutely did not go out of his way to seperate as many families crossing the border as he could. Or so strongly try to deter, and in some cases outright refuse, no matter the circumstance, those seeking legal asylum.

Obama didn’t ban entire nations from entering the US, either.

I mean, When have 2000+ children been separated from their families at the border in a 6 week time span before?

When have we seen these mass trials of immigrants becoming a normal occurrence like we are seeing in places like McAllen, Texas?

Btw, I’d be interested to read any links you have, or numbers or whatever, on immigrant children being saved from trafficking by this new policy. If thats true, that is definitely nice to hear.

I was under the impression that adults who crossed illegally had to prove their identity and the identity of anyone with them (children, etc) through things like fingerprinting, a checklist of documentation, and/or contact with family members in cases (etc) before being released to await their court date?

And i I thought that under previous administrations, children were already separated from those they suspected of being traffickers?

Maybe I am remembering incorrectly though...

If separating all these children saved more from traffickers, it would be a bit of a silver lining (and a happy coincidence). But I don’t buy for a minute that it had anything to do with the motive behind this (not saying that’s what you implied).

Edited July 9, 2018 by BillsFan4

DC Tom · July 9, 2018

10 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

If separating all these children saved more from traffickers, it would be a bit of a silver lining (and a happy coincidence). But I don’t buy for a minute that it had anything to do with the motive behind this (not saying that’s what you implied).

I'm not implying it. I'm stating it.

Deranged Rhino · July 9, 2018

(have to catch up in this thread... but as I do, putting this here):

Buffalo_Gal · July 9, 2018

Land owners in south Texas getting letters on border wall

Maybe it will slow the flow? Then, children will not have to be separated from their parents when their parents commit the crime of coming to the United States illegally?

Foxx · July 11, 2018

it's too bad the left can't call this #fakenews....

some highlights (lowlights) from the article.

Judicial Watch: New HHS Documents Reveal that ‘Unaccompanied Alien Children’ Processed During Obama Years Included Violent Criminals, Drug Smugglers, and Human Traffickers

Reports Include 1,000 ‘Significant Incident Reports,’ Revealing UAC ‘Refugees’ Admitting to Murder for Drug Cartels, Prostitution, and Sexual Predation

Reports Also Cite Incidents of U.S. Government Contractors/Employees Allegedly Assaulting Unaccompanied Alien Children

(Washington, DC) – Judicial Watch today released 224 pages of documents containing nearly 1,000 summaries of Significant Incident Reports (SIRs) from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) revealing that “Unaccompanied Alien Children” (UAC) processed during the Obama administration included admitted murderers, rapists, drug smugglers, prostitutes, and human traffickers.

The documents, from the HHS Administration for Children and Families reported to the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), are for the approximate six-month period May to November 2014. They were produced to Judicial Watch after a three-year delay in response to a November 12, 2014, Freedom of Information Act ...

...

The resulting documents show that, in fiscal year 2014, there were 24,680 Significant Incident Reports filed with Office of Refugee Resettlement.

Examples of incident reports below are organized into four general categories:

UACs admitting to murder, belonging to MS-13, threatening others with rape, admitting to drug smuggling, molesting other UACs and seriously assaulting other UACs or staff;

UACs who were raped and/or molested en route to the United States or in the United States;

U.S. Government contractors and employees allegedly assaulting or having sexual relationships with UACs; and

Other incidents, crimes, abuse and self-harm.

...

... “The Obama administration presided over a humanitarian and public safety nightmare in its handling of ‘unaccompanied alien children,’” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “The incident reports also support the Trump administration’s contention that the UAC crisis, which continues, includes murderers, rapists, drug smugglers and human traffickers being routinely allowed into the United States.”

Judicial Watch began investigating this matter in 2014 when a wave of “Unaccompanied Alien Children” swamped the southwest border. At that time, the controversial HHS contract with Baptist Children and Family Services to provide shelter to children at two military facilities came to light. Through that investigation, Judicial Watch learned that BCFS was providing consumer electronics as “essential” items to the children. Since that time, Judicial Watch has been investigating incidents of violence, drug trafficking, human trafficking, and other criminal activities, as well as whether innocent children were being abused while in U.S. shelters.

B-Man · July 13, 2018

Democrats -- the masks are off

“Here’s our abolish ice bill Mr. Speaker. We demand you to put it on the floor and call a vote.”

“Okay let’s call a vote.”

“We will not partake in this shameless political stunt of yours. How dare you sir.”............ :doh:

Bluff status: CALLED! These Dems’ ‘abolish ICE’ bill just backfired BIG TIME

It’s being reported that the House Republicans will put a Democrat bill that would abolish ICE up for a vote:

Via The Hill:

House GOP leaders plan to bring a Democratic measure calling for the abolishment of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to the House floor, hoping to force Democrats into a difficult vote.

The Democratic bill, introduced Thursday, would create a commission to examine ICE’s responsibilities and then recommend transferring them to other agencies.

Republicans see the growing “abolish ICE” movement as a political winner that will make at least some Democrats running in swing districts uncomfortable.

The bill was sponsored by three Dems, and guess who reportedly won’t be voting for their own bill:

Why Is Our Government Putting People In Cages?

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