Bills Cap Mismanagement

[DrinkinBuddy]

The Bills cap has been mismanaged for a long time. While I think this organization has been great in some areas this area has been pretty awful.

Good teams identify key positions to invest their cap dollars. There are exceptions to this if you have a top 5 player at a lesser position, perhaps you pay him.

Certainly up for debate but I'll take a stab at identifying which positions should be paid for and which shouldn't (1 pay, possibly pay, 3 dont pay):

1. QB/LT/WR1
2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE
3. HB/FB/WR3

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

Some pretty questionable signings in the last few years under Whaley at positions where you need to find cheap alternatives:

Graham - $6 mil for below average.

AWill - $6 mil per for 1 good year. They lose Byrd (correct move letting him walk) and then overpay an unproven guy on a long term deal.

McCoy - why did they give him a new deal? because he whined he wouldn't play? Retire then dude, you don't have a lot of options. We traded for a 2 year deal with no dead cap component. The new deal creates the potential for a bunch of dead cap. He's 29, the cliff isn't far off.

The Pats paid the most to a RB in many years for Burkehead at a measily $3.15 mil. We've dumped countless 1st rounders and large contracts into the RB position. Mike G looked pretty good last year, maybe it's more about the line than the RB.

Clay - $9 mil, top 8 salary at TE for a guy who had some potential but hadn't done much. Rex was so driven to screw the Dolphins he screwed the Bills instead.

Felton - $3 mil for a fullback? The position is dying, lots of them out there. Grab one on the cheap.

Easley - you can't pay a 6th WR special team player who's not a returner anything but the minimum.

Glenn and Dareus deserve big contracts, but the cap numbers are crazy and growing by the year. 14 and 16 mil per. Dareus' off-field issues should have resulted in a significant discount.

Gilmore's gone as a result of some of these bad signings. It seems there's a disconnect between the personnel dept. and the cap/finance dept.

It's not fair to only point out the bad.

Getting Tyrod to renogotiate when there was little reason to was a big win. But why did they set the contract up that way in the first place?

Past deals to Hughes and Incognito both seem pretty reasonable

The LoRax, Hyde, Groy, Holmes deals all seem pretty solid.

But who's Poyer and what's he done to earn $2.5 mil?

I'm interested to hear what others think the prime positions are and what are the best and worst signings the Bills have made.

[NewEra]

Rename the thread Fire Whaley

[John from Riverside]

is it too early in the thread that all NFL teams do this?

 

You have teams with boatloads of cap space but win like 4 games a year maybe

 

You have teams that swing and miss on players but nobody bothers to look at it because they have franchise qbs and win

 

there there are teams like us.......middle of the pack.....

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Rename the thread Fire Whaley

 

.......interesting when Overdorf is the lead dawg......but then again, the "Fire Whaley Gang" salivates at every opportunity......you know about the neglected broken urinal in 313, right??.........

 

• Associated Press
• Published: Jan. 31, 2008 at 11:34 a.m.
• Updated: July 26, 2012 at 08:17 p.m

ORCHARD PARK, N.Y. -- Jim Overdorf was promoted to Buffalo Bills senior vice president of football administration, giving him control over contract negotiations and salary cap decisions.

[Rico]

OK, fire both Lil Doug and Overdorf then.

[mead107]

It's been talked to death. No need for a different title on the thread

[mjt328]

It's not that simple. You can't just identify "positions to pay" and "positions not to pay" without considering many other factors.

 

For instance, what kind of system is the team running?

Seeing as how the Bills employ a ground/pound system that runs more than anyone in the league, it's silly to imply that paying Lesean McCoy is a waste. Or suggesting that we should just settle for scraps at Fullback. Unlike a team that passes 75% of the time, these guys are key pieces to our offensive attack.

The same can be said for defense. While Rex Ryan forced his corners to play heavy man-coverage on the outside, Sean McDermott goes with a mostly zone scheme. That means the cover skills of our corners is less important than on other teams. Which I believe is a major factor in why we let Stephon Gilmore walk instead of at least franchising him. And why our entire secondary is being revamped.

 

Speaking of Gilmore, the actual skill level of players should also be heavily considered. Almost every player has a max value. And Gilmore was looking for Top 5-10 money, as a guy who has never consistently played at that kind of level.

 

You also have to realize that you can't pay a QB or WR top money when you don't have a franchise quarterback, or when your wide receiver is still on his rookie contract. So that money goes somewhere else.

 

In the case of Charles Clay, the contract was specifically structured and loaded in a way to keep the Dolphins from being able to match and keep him. I give the Bills front office credit for identifying a player they thought could help, and then ensuring they got him. The reason he is not living up to the contract is because Taylor just isn't looking his way enough. Not because the guy isn't good enough to make plays.

 

 

 

In my opinion, the Bills have actually done a pretty good job with the salary cap. They have known when to let people walk (Byrd, Levitre, Bradham). They have known when to re-sign guys (Hughes, Glenn, Incognito, Dareus). They have found bargains in free agency (Incognito, Alexander, Brown). They have done a good job at restructuring when necessary (Taylor).

 

The biggest problem with the roster continues to be poor drafting.

 

Because even though I believe letting Gilmore, Robert Woods and Zach Brown go was the right move... now we have giant holes on the roster and nobody ready to step up and fill that role. We also still have a hole at Right Tackle that needs to be filled, and questions at Safety.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

It's been talked to death. No need for a different title on the thread

...at the same time, if Overdorf is so lousy at his job, why did Terry retain him?.....pretty sure he could afford whoever he wants........

[Buddo]

As said above, scheme is extremely important in respect of a number of positions. And will define who should be getting what. Part of the Bills problems with Cap Management, will stem from the continual changes in coaches, where schemes also change.

 

One year you are paying a guy in line with market value, the next, you could be either over-paying him, or under-paying him due to a system change.

[Pbomb]

Remember when ralph was owner and people complained how we never spent our cap, now we spend our cap and its probably those same people who are complaining

[mikemac2001]

Isn't it suppose to be pretty cleared up next year

 

Now I might argue how we have spent it but when you don't have a top qb tend to spend more in other positions

 

We pay a lot for our oline but we also have to run the ball to have a chance

[Beef Jerky]

Remember when ralph was owner and people complained how we never spent our cap, now we spend our cap and its probably those same people who are complaining

You're damned If you do, and you're damned if you don't. The only thing that matters is finding good players TBH.

[Billy Zabka]

...at the same time, if Overdorf is so lousy at his job, why did Terry retain him?.....pretty sure he could afford whoever he wants........

 

Terry can obviously afford whoever he wants, however it doesn't mean he is going to hire/retain the right people just because he's rich. This is a man that wanted and overpayed for Ville Leino and Rex Ryan.

 

Anyway, it's time for both Whaley and Overdorf to be let go.

[nucci]

You don't like Dareus and Glenn cap numbers but wanted to pay Gilmore? The cap is close to $170M....players are going to get big contracts

[PromoTheRobot]

That's always the case isn't it? You can't overpay your free agents now because you overpaid the last bunch of losers.

[Manther]

Remember when ralph was owner and people complained how we never spent our cap, now we spend our cap and its probably those same people who are complaining

Exactly! And, before we didn't spend money and fill an NFL caliber roster and now we don't have comp picks that we never had before.

 

I get that we are all frustrated and bitter with this century of football. But, it is amazing what it has done to so many of us fans and we are more excited to be angry than excited it is getting better.

 

I stay positive (most of the time) and in reality our long term plan is so much better and we are executing it with growing pains. There are no perfect people, just perfect intentions and we are trying to build this the right way with some growing pains. We will get there. It is going to be okay.

 

But, i do come on this site less because of the angry folks that are just bitter and full of hate. The ones that like to blame, blame, blame, without even logically thinking things thru. Misery loves company and I try to stay away from that.

 

You all should too because we are closer to than farther away than any point in this century. We are getting closer to what we all want. Embrace and enjoy it.

[tombstone56]

i think its hilarious that some guy sitting on a website actually believes he is better at cap manipulation than professionals

[FireChan]

 

The Bills cap has been mismanaged for a long time. While I think this organization has been great in some areas this area has been pretty awful.

 

Good teams identify key positions to invest their cap dollars. There are exceptions to this if you have a top 5 player at a lesser position, perhaps you pay him.

 

Certainly up for debate but I'll take a stab at identifying which positions should be paid for and which shouldn't (1 pay, possibly pay, 3 dont pay):

 

1. QB/LT/WR1

2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE

3. HB/FB/WR3

 

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

 

Some pretty questionable signings in the last few years under Whaley at positions where you need to find cheap alternatives:

Graham - $6 mil for below average.

AWill - $6 mil per for 1 good year. They lose Byrd (correct move letting him walk) and then overpay an unproven guy on a long term deal.

McCoy - why did they give him a new deal? because he whined he wouldn't play? Retire then dude, you don't have a lot of options. We traded for a 2 year deal with no dead cap component. The new deal creates the potential for a bunch of dead cap. He's 29, the cliff isn't far off.

The Pats paid the most to a RB in many years for Burkehead at a measily $3.15 mil. We've dumped countless 1st rounders and large contracts into the RB position. Mike G looked pretty good last year, maybe it's more about the line than the RB.

Clay - $9 mil, top 8 salary at TE for a guy who had some potential but hadn't done much. Rex was so driven to screw the Dolphins he screwed the Bills instead.

Felton - $3 mil for a fullback? The position is dying, lots of them out there. Grab one on the cheap.

Easley - you can't pay a 6th WR special team player who's not a returner anything but the minimum.

 

Glenn and Dareus deserve big contracts, but the cap numbers are crazy and growing by the year. 14 and 16 mil per. Dareus' off-field issues should have resulted in a significant discount.

Gilmore's gone as a result of some of these bad signings. It seems there's a disconnect between the personnel dept. and the cap/finance dept.

It's not fair to only point out the bad.

 

Getting Tyrod to renogotiate when there was little reason to was a big win. But why did they set the contract up that way in the first place?

Past deals to Hughes and Incognito both seem pretty reasonable

 

The LoRax, Hyde, Groy, Holmes deals all seem pretty solid.

 

But who's Poyer and what's he done to earn $2.5 mil?

I'm interested to hear what others think the prime positions are and what are the best and worst signings the Bills have made.

 

Corey Graham was signed as a CB.

 

Certain positions should be emphasized as more important, but the bottom line is that you have to pay somebody to play LB or RT. You shouldn't overpay or break the bank for a decent to good starter, but you can't have the other 12 or so positions manned by UDFA or vet minimum guys. It's just not that simple.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Looking back, how many seasons have the Bills been in legitimate "cap jail?" I don't recall any, at least in the Nix/Whaley era. They've had the money to, for example, sign Mario Williams to a record breaking deal, and he produced admirably during his time here, at least until he became a malcontent.

 

I agree with mjt - the biggest problem with the current regime (and, frankly, pretty much all the previous regimes since the drought began) is poor college scouting and drafting. The misses on QB alone in the very recent past (Carr, Prescott) makes me doubt Whaley and his people more than any questionable free agent signings or resignings.

 

Oh, and stop making Overdorf the scapegoat. It's a popular hobby around here. He doesn't do anything unilaterally. Sure he has input into contract structures and such - he's the one negotiating them. But to think he can override the roster decisions of GM or ownership and pick who to pay is a little nuts.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

i think its hilarious that some guy sitting on a website actually believes he is better at cap manipulation than professionals

 

I'm not saying me by any means but I'm sure there are and know of many good number crunchers, it can't be rocket science although math to me sometimes feels like that but to the guy who works with numbers all the time I think it would be natural for them regardless if behind a computer ( where I think Overdorf is most of the time anyways) but that's just my opinion.

[stuvian]

Good topic. We nickled and dimed Andy Levitre and Jason Peters but paid a king's ransom for Mario Williams. These moves are on Buddy Nix IMO. We have invested salary cap dollars with a losers mentality - we must overpay to keep players because we are small market.

[Augie]

I'm generally a Whaley supporter, but cap management is my biggest issue. We can do better there, I think.

[Rob's House]

Drafting has been halfway decent as far as selecting talented players. The draft problem has been 3 fold: wasting picks to trade up, switching coaches with drastically different schemes (poor fits for previously drafted players), and poor QB scouting.

 

Who's to blame? Hard to say. Normally I'd blame the GM. Perhaps that's appropriate here. But the bizarre Whaley press conferences makes me wonder if he's really a GM in the traditional sense or if he's just a glorified scout.

 

Whoever is to blame, the approach has been short sighted in recent years. There's a lot to be said for continuity. If things are going in the wrong direction maybe it's better to pull the plug sooner rather than later, but unless you're willing to commit to a philosophy for 3-5 years you're either hoping for a lucky break or you're just spinning your wheels.

[Steve Billieve]

 

 

1. QB/LT/WR1

2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE

3. HB/FB/WR3

 

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

 

 

Seems like the bills are pretty much agreeing with you here with maybe the exception of rb/fb. It's hard to deny that we've gotten good value out of our running backs. When we signed Felton he was touted as the best in the biz at what he did, so it was probably a miss but we've had much worse cap mistakes.

[Gunsgoodtime]

The Bills cap has been mismanaged for a long time. While I think this organization has been great in some areas this area has been pretty awful.

Good teams identify key positions to invest their cap dollars. There are exceptions to this if you have a top 5 player at a lesser position, perhaps you pay him.

Certainly up for debate but I'll take a stab at identifying which positions should be paid for and which shouldn't (1 pay, possibly pay, 3 dont pay):

1. QB/LT/WR1

2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE

3. HB/FB/WR3

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

 

Some pretty questionable signings in the last few years under Whaley at positions where you need to find cheap alternatives:

 

Graham - $6 mil for below average.

 

AWill - $6 mil per for 1 good year. They lose Byrd (correct move letting him walk) and then overpay an unproven guy on a long term deal.

 

McCoy - why did they give him a new deal? because he whined he wouldn't play? Retire then dude, you don't have a lot of options. We traded for a 2 year deal with no dead cap component. The new deal creates the potential for a bunch of dead cap. He's 29, the cliff isn't far off.

 

The Pats paid the most to a RB in many years for Burkehead at a measily $3.15 mil. We've dumped countless 1st rounders and large contracts into the RB position. Mike G looked pretty good last year, maybe it's more about the line than the RB.

 

Clay - $9 mil, top 8 salary at TE for a guy who had some potential but hadn't done much. Rex was so driven to screw the Dolphins he screwed the Bills instead.

 

Felton - $3 mil for a fullback? The position is dying, lots of them out there. Grab one on the cheap.

 

Easley - you can't pay a 6th WR special team player who's not a returner anything but the minimum.

Glenn and Dareus deserve big contracts, but the cap numbers are crazy and growing by the year. 14 and 16 mil per. Dareus' off-field issues should have resulted in a significant discount.

 

Gilmore's gone as a result of some of these bad signings. It seems there's a disconnect between the personnel dept. and the cap/finance dept.

 

It's not fair to only point out the bad.

Getting Tyrod to renogotiate when there was little reason to was a big win. But why did they set the contract up that way in the first place?

 

Past deals to Hughes and Incognito both seem pretty reasonable

The LoRax, Hyde, Groy, Holmes deals all seem pretty solid.

But who's Poyer and what's he done to earn $2.5 mil?

 

I'm interested to hear what others think the prime positions are and what are the best and worst signings the Bills have made.

I'm with you on the Poyer signing, that one is a head scratcher to me, the estimate by the professionals was like 1.25m per year. Feel like we over paid on that one. Dareus is a terrible deal based off of his own doings...he needs to correct that now or its a crippling deal. The Tyrod contract is a great deal, but don't make up for the bad ones we have. Btw, 2 1st and a 4th on sammy is looking really bad right now considering his injuries. Hope they all prove me wrong

O

Edited April 1, 2017 by Gunsgoodtime

[johnnywo]

 

The Bills cap has been mismanaged for a long time. While I think this organization has been great in some areas this area has been pretty awful.

 

Good teams identify key positions to invest their cap dollars. There are exceptions to this if you have a top 5 player at a lesser position, perhaps you pay him.

 

Certainly up for debate but I'll take a stab at identifying which positions should be paid for and which shouldn't (1 pay, possibly pay, 3 dont pay):

 

1. QB/LT/WR1

2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE

3. HB/FB/WR3

 

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

 

Some pretty questionable signings in the last few years under Whaley at positions where you need to find cheap alternatives:

Graham - $6 mil for below average.

AWill - $6 mil per for 1 good year. They lose Byrd (correct move letting him walk) and then overpay an unproven guy on a long term deal.

McCoy - why did they give him a new deal? because he whined he wouldn't play? Retire then dude, you don't have a lot of options. We traded for a 2 year deal with no dead cap component. The new deal creates the potential for a bunch of dead cap. He's 29, the cliff isn't far off.

The Pats paid the most to a RB in many years for Burkehead at a measily $3.15 mil. We've dumped countless 1st rounders and large contracts into the RB position. Mike G looked pretty good last year, maybe it's more about the line than the RB.

Clay - $9 mil, top 8 salary at TE for a guy who had some potential but hadn't done much. Rex was so driven to screw the Dolphins he screwed the Bills instead.

Felton - $3 mil for a fullback? The position is dying, lots of them out there. Grab one on the cheap.

Easley - you can't pay a 6th WR special team player who's not a returner anything but the minimum.

 

Glenn and Dareus deserve big contracts, but the cap numbers are crazy and growing by the year. 14 and 16 mil per. Dareus' off-field issues should have resulted in a significant discount.

Gilmore's gone as a result of some of these bad signings. It seems there's a disconnect between the personnel dept. and the cap/finance dept.

It's not fair to only point out the bad.

 

Getting Tyrod to renogotiate when there was little reason to was a big win. But why did they set the contract up that way in the first place?

Past deals to Hughes and Incognito both seem pretty reasonable

 

The LoRax, Hyde, Groy, Holmes deals all seem pretty solid.

 

But who's Poyer and what's he done to earn $2.5 mil?

I'm interested to hear what others think the prime positions are and what are the best and worst signings the Bills have made.

 

I'd be worried if they didn't have $44M+ next season....none of my business though..

 

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/buffalo-bills/

[John from Riverside]

I'd be worried if they didn't have $44M+ next season....none of my business though..

 

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap/buffalo-bills/

What I find interesting is they have done virtually NO restructures this year to give themselves more cap room....intead working within the perameters of the cap that they actually had and redoing TT's contract.

 

They have done no kicking the can down the road and yet have still found some talented guys.

[PromoTheRobot]

Good topic. We nickled and dimed Andy Levitre and Jason Peters but paid a king's ransom for Mario Williams. These moves are on Buddy Nix IMO. We have invested salary cap dollars with a losers mentality - we must overpay to keep players because we are small market.

The people you don't sign are always nickel and dimed and the people you do sign were overpaid.

[Kirby Jackson]

I'm not sure how anyone that understands can think that the cap has been mismanaged? When was the last player that the Bills couldn't afford to pay? (I am waiting for someone to say Gilmore and show their clear lack of understanding of the cap). Maybe Nate Clements? London Fletcher? The Bills cap has been managed EXTREMELY well. If you don't like certain players that's different than cap mismanagement.

[JohnC]

I'm not sure how anyone that understands can think that the cap has been mismanaged? When was the last player that the Bills couldn't afford to pay? (I am waiting for someone to say Gilmore and show their clear lack of understanding of the cap). Maybe Nate Clements? London Fletcher? The Bills cap has been managed EXTREMELY well. If you don't like certain players that's different than cap mismanagement.

I agree with you that it is unfair to conclude that our cap has been mismanaged. But that is not to say that it has been efficiently run compared to other organizations. A simple definition of a cap system is reduced to the core of talent vs cost. Some organizations have a better grasp on that relationship than others.

 

New England is the model for managing a cap. They have maintained the highest level of success while tightly managing the costs. Players come and go as much and as fast as any other franchise in the league. The key to their success is having the replacements ready or near hand when the inevitable departures happen.

 

Ultimately success is measured based on a team's record. By that measurement the Bills are a failure. Managing the cap well or poorly in and of itself tells you little. During the Ralph Wilson era under the direction of Littman the Bills were a tightly cap managed team.

 

There is a number of acceptable ways of configuring a team's cap. There is no one template other than maybe what New England does. The bottom line is it comes down to talent and how it is distributed within a roster. Based on Buffalo's accumulated record W/L and the money the organization has spent this team has not very impressively managed its cap.

 

The essence of cap management is talent assessment and placing a value to it. The problem with the Bills is that they have not done well with the talent assessment side of the equation. Both sides are inextricably linked. If you too often miss on the talent side then you will inevitably fail on the cap/financial side. The record determines the ultimate judgment.

[Manther]

What I find interesting is they have done virtually NO restructures this year to give themselves more cap room....intead working within the perameters of the cap that they actually had and redoing TT's contract.

 

They have done no kicking the can down the road and yet have still found some talented guys.

Agreed, which I think is a good thing. If they wanted or needed to kick the can down the road they could have. So, I think that is promising that we have options and flexibiltiy to kick it and secondly, that we didn't and will be in a great cap situation moving forward.

 

Once again, I think they have a plan and are sticking to it.

[Manther]

I'm not sure how anyone that understands can think that the cap has been mismanaged? When was the last player that the Bills couldn't afford to pay? (I am waiting for someone to say Gilmore and show their clear lack of understanding of the cap). Maybe Nate Clements? London Fletcher? The Bills cap has been managed EXTREMELY well. If you don't like certain players that's different than cap mismanagement.

Agreed. We didn't lose Gilmore because we didn't want to pay him. We lost him because we didn't deem him worth that alotmnet of the cap. Either because where we valued the position, valued Gilmore and where we valued Gilmore vs the position.

 

I think the only two times in recent years we could say we mismanged the cap was the offering of the contracts to Byrd and Spiller. But, we don't know exactly what those contracts were. I don't think anyone knows what we really offered Byrd. But, what we do know is we valued Aaron Williams at $6.25/M a year. So, I would say we did a great job and there was a freak injury.

 

So, the only cap mismangement I can think of IMO is $4/M year for Spiller that he didn't take. That would have been a waste of cap space and roster spot.

 

Overall, great track record for the last 5 years approx!

 

Right or wrong, the signings of Dareus (I would have liked clauses and would always when some has a previous suspension) being DL, Jerry Hughes as pass rusher and Cordy Glenn at LT are all going rate or less. The good thing IMO is the Bills are valuing the correct positions to pay the money and then still looking to get a cap friendly deal done. Jerry and Cordy are cap friendly at good positions.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Agreed, which I think is a good thing. If they wanted or needed to kick the can down the road they could have. So, I think that is promising that we have options and flexibiltiy to kick it and secondly, that we didn't and will be in a great cap situation moving forward.

 

Once again, I think they have a plan and are sticking to it.

...then again, there could be restructuring discussions/negotiations going on right now behind the scenes....IMO, two candidates would be Eric Wood (due $7.583 mil in 2017) and Kyle Williams (due $8.3 mil in 2017).....spread both over 2 years for some pretty good savings (I think).........they're not going anywhere at this point in their careers.........

[Dragonborn10]

Just give one example of any player let go or not signed due to salary cap restrictions? It hasn't happened. They paid Fitz like he was a franchise QB. They paid Mario Williams a pass rusher elite money. They have a LT earning top dollar. Their WR #1 is on a rookie deal. Outside of running back and paying a gunner (Easely) more than the minimum I'm not sure there is one even questionable decision/contract. As for Dareus, if he hit FA 30 other teams would have gladly paid him the same or more. Again these decisions in no way impacted their ability to sign, release, or let walk any player.

Want to complain about wasted resources and cap mismanagement. Don't trade away draft picks. Don't move up in the draft. Move down and acquire more picks. That is how you stay young and under the cap. Add cheap talent through the draft and pick and choose what players to keep.

[Augie]

I guess I'm influenced by the list of who has cap space each off season, where we had so much less to spend on FA's. I'd like to be able to do a little more shopping to fill some holes (esp. RT), but I really don't even know who to target. It would have been nice to keeps Woods, but I'm not sure if that was good value, so... With that said (or admitted?), I AM glad that we are NOT "kicking the can down the road".

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Good topic. We nickled and dimed Andy Levitre and Jason Peters but paid a king's ransom for Mario Williams. These moves are on Buddy Nix IMO. We have invested salary cap dollars with a losers mentality - we must overpay to keep players because we are small market.

...if I remember correctly, Andy was looking for and got $8 mil/yr which posters said was absurd money for a guard......and he did not do much after cashing in, so why would you term it "nickle and diming"?..

[stuvian]

...if I remember correctly, Andy was looking for and got $8 mil/yr which posters said was absurd money for a guard......and he did not do much after cashing in, so why would you term it "nickle and diming"?..

he played all 16 games for the NFC champ Falcons. We were told his knees were shot which was apparently BS

[Augie]

he played all 16 games for the NFC champ Falcons. We were told his knees were shot which was apparently BS

Like the Cheaters, better teams make guys look like better players.

[DanInUticaTampa]

 

The Bills cap has been mismanaged for a long time. While I think this organization has been great in some areas this area has been pretty awful.

 

Good teams identify key positions to invest their cap dollars. There are exceptions to this if you have a top 5 player at a lesser position, perhaps you pay him.

 

Certainly up for debate but I'll take a stab at identifying which positions should be paid for and which shouldn't (1 pay, possibly pay, 3 dont pay):

 

1. QB/LT/WR1

2. RT/C/G/WR2/TE

3. HB/FB/WR3

 

1. Pass rushers/CB/DL

2. none

3. S/LB

 

Some pretty questionable signings in the last few years under Whaley at positions where you need to find cheap alternatives:

Graham - $6 mil for below average.

AWill - $6 mil per for 1 good year. They lose Byrd (correct move letting him walk) and then overpay an unproven guy on a long term deal.

McCoy - why did they give him a new deal? because he whined he wouldn't play? Retire then dude, you don't have a lot of options. We traded for a 2 year deal with no dead cap component. The new deal creates the potential for a bunch of dead cap. He's 29, the cliff isn't far off.

The Pats paid the most to a RB in many years for Burkehead at a measily $3.15 mil. We've dumped countless 1st rounders and large contracts into the RB position. Mike G looked pretty good last year, maybe it's more about the line than the RB.

Clay - $9 mil, top 8 salary at TE for a guy who had some potential but hadn't done much. Rex was so driven to screw the Dolphins he screwed the Bills instead.

Felton - $3 mil for a fullback? The position is dying, lots of them out there. Grab one on the cheap.

Easley - you can't pay a 6th WR special team player who's not a returner anything but the minimum.

 

Glenn and Dareus deserve big contracts, but the cap numbers are crazy and growing by the year. 14 and 16 mil per. Dareus' off-field issues should have resulted in a significant discount.

Gilmore's gone as a result of some of these bad signings. It seems there's a disconnect between the personnel dept. and the cap/finance dept.

It's not fair to only point out the bad.

 

Getting Tyrod to renogotiate when there was little reason to was a big win. But why did they set the contract up that way in the first place?

Past deals to Hughes and Incognito both seem pretty reasonable

 

The LoRax, Hyde, Groy, Holmes deals all seem pretty solid.

 

But who's Poyer and what's he done to earn $2.5 mil?

I'm interested to hear what others think the prime positions are and what are the best and worst signings the Bills have made.

 

 

The only one of those that seems bad or a bust contract is the Clay one. All the other contracts have at least an argument as to why it was worth it. I don't think Gilmore was worth the contract the pats gave him. and Mccoy is special, and he is our star on offense. Patriots don't need to invest in the RB position because they have probably the best QB in history playing for them. I see nothing wrong with the contract we gave mccoy, he carries our offense and he has been worth every penny.

 

Whaley's failures have been not getting a franchise QB and making a questionable trade up for sammy watkins. Overall I consider him an average GM. but he made some mistakes early on and it looks like this will be his last season barring a miracle of us getting into the playoffs

[Kirby Jackson]

I agree with you that it is unfair to conclude that our cap has been mismanaged. But that is not to say that it has been efficiently run compared to other organizations. A simple definition of a cap system is reduced to the core of talent vs cost. Some organizations have a better grasp on that relationship than others.

 

New England is the model for managing a cap. They have maintained the highest level of success while tightly managing the costs. Players come and go as much and as fast as any other franchise in the league. The key to their success is having the replacements ready or near hand when the inevitable departures happen.

 

Ultimately success is measured based on a team's record. By that measurement the Bills are a failure. Managing the cap well or poorly in and of itself tells you little. During the Ralph Wilson era under the direction of Littman the Bills were a tightly cap managed team.

 

There is a number of acceptable ways of configuring a team's cap. There is no one template other than maybe what New England does. The bottom line is it comes down to talent and how it is distributed within a roster. Based on Buffalo's accumulated record W/L and the money the organization has spent this team has not very impressively managed its cap.

 

The essence of cap management is talent assessment and placing a value to it. The problem with the Bills is that they have not done well with the talent assessment side of the equation. Both sides are inextricably linked. If you too often miss on the talent side then you will inevitably fail on the cap/financial side. The record determines the ultimate judgment.

Bad signings and cap mismanagement are totally different. I agree that the talent side is a part of it. Corey Graham shouldn't have had the cap number that he did. My point was that the Bills have not had to let a player walk in a decade. They have made some business decisions along the way but they haven't been forced to make a decision because they couldn't afford it in a decade. You can criticize the Bills for plenty but "cap management" isn't one of them. They have a restructure for Glenn and Dareus sitting in their back pocket if they need it.

Agreed. We didn't lose Gilmore because we didn't want to pay him. We lost him because we didn't deem him worth that alotmnet of the cap. Either because where we valued the position, valued Gilmore and where we valued Gilmore vs the position.

 

I think the only two times in recent years we could say we mismanged the cap was the offering of the contracts to Byrd and Spiller. But, we don't know exactly what those contracts were. I don't think anyone knows what we really offered Byrd. But, what we do know is we valued Aaron Williams at $6.25/M a year. So, I would say we did a great job and there was a freak injury.

 

So, the only cap mismangement I can think of IMO is $4/M year for Spiller that he didn't take. That would have been a waste of cap space and roster spot.

 

Overall, great track record for the last 5 years approx!

 

Right or wrong, the signings of Dareus (I would have liked clauses and would always when some has a previous suspension) being DL, Jerry Hughes as pass rusher and Cordy Glenn at LT are all going rate or less. The good thing IMO is the Bills are valuing the correct positions to pay the money and then still looking to get a cap friendly deal done. Jerry and Cordy are cap friendly at good positions.

That's where I'm at Manther. The Bills don't even have a little bit of a salary cap issue. They have the numbers all figured out.