Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Your a tool. 1st she had passed before he went and helped work out the CBA (which players thanked him for.) second he made his money as he bought the place his wife's father was president of in 1972. But I love the hate.. let it flow threw you embrace the hate.. No. Wrong. Who is the tool? While Kraft's wife was battling cancer during the spring and summer of 2012, he shuttled back and forth between his wife's hospital bed and the NFL's labor negotiations with her encouragement. Myra Kraft passed away on July 20, 2011, and five days later, a grieving Robert Kraft stood outside the NFLPA's headquarters in Washington, D.C., as the 10-year CBA agreement was announced. http://www.patriots.com/news/2012/06/18/robert-kraft-selected-pfwas-2012-george-halas-award-winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Now if you could say that in ENGLISH. It would be appreciated. I heard Kraft called a lot of things, never a drunk before. As for what Ralph did with the worst owners in NFL History the Sullivan's GOT TO DO WITH Kraft is beyond me. Also your conspiracy theory is just that a conspiracy theory.. also had nothing to do with what was said... thinking maybe your drunk. I know there were some big words in the post but they are all English words. Erroneously, immaterial, compatriots....all English words. You really don't have to be all that wicked smaaaaahhhhhhttttt to know them. Could Kraft had ever have purchased the Patriots if they had ceased to exist? Here is a little exercise for you. 1. Go to Google 2. Type "Bob Kraft Drunk" in the search box and hit enter. You will see: About 349,000 results (0.35 seconds) lots of videos to choose from too. He is a prime mover in the disaster that is the NFL right now. Edited January 12, 2017 by 4merper4mer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 No. Wrong. Who is the tool? http://www.patriots.com/news/2012/06/18/robert-kraft-selected-pfwas-2012-george-halas-award-winner Your still the tool. I see reading isn't one of your better subjects. He was away from talks for a month during her final days and returned after her funeral to finish the agreement that again the players like Saturday thanked him for doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Your still the tool. I see reading isn't one of your better subjects. He was away from talks for a month during her final days and returned after her funeral to finish the agreement that again the players like Saturday thanked him for doing. He left her bedside time and time again and was praised for it. I call it leaving your wife. You said, "1st she had passed before he went and helped work out the CBA." He helped work out the CBA for months and months. The day she died he was doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Your still the tool. I see reading isn't one of your better subjects. He was away from talks for a month during her final days and returned after her funeral to finish the agreement that again the players like Saturday thanked him for doing. His still the tool what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) I know there were some big word sin the post but they are all English words. Erroneously, immaterial, compatriots....all English words. You really don't have to be all that wicked smaaaaahhhhhhttttt to know them. Could Kraft had ever have purchased the Patriots if they had ceased to exist? Here is a little exercise for you. 1. Go to Google 2. Type "Bob Kraft Drunk" in the search box and hit enter. You will see: About 349,000 results (0.35 seconds) lots of videos to choose from too. He is a prime mover in the disaster that is the NFL right now. Wow I understand the hate but every single topic on Kraft drunk was not at an inappropriate time. SB game, home. Calling him a drunk is absurd and well makes you sound just dumb. Mind you have no idea what this has to do with this thread, which my original post did. So if you have issues with me PM me otherwise let's not ruin the thread with a silly side argument. Edited January 12, 2017 by PatsFanNH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 HAIL MARY: Chargers’ desperation move is a shot to the NFL’s vitality. Now a weird year for the NFL just got weirder. If the Chargers do indeed move, and if owners approve the Raiders’ move to Vegas in March, three teams will have relocated in a 14-month span. There will be plenty of blame to go around. Goodell will be the face of it, but internally, owners and executives will wonder if NFL executive Eric Grubman, the point man on stadiums, did an effective enough job of negotiating with San Diego officials. The owners will be viewed as vessels of greed; Spanos will be the one who in the end decided to pull the plug on a cherished home, his legacy a sunburned version of Art Modell’s. But the lingering conflict goes beyond the relocations, beyond the logistics and into an area that is tougher to navigate if not solve, because there is no clear solution: What if the NFL simply matters less? Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 No extra cost. LOL. Have you seen the price of cable recently and how it is continually going up? it may not be an "extra cost" but it certainly comes at a cost. If you are out of Market you need to spend an additional Hundred plus dollars to get your hometown team. The commissioner doesn't make enough money, he needs to be paid more. You just needed to agree with the bolded part, which is exactly what I said. In other words, if you have even basic cable, you don't have to pay anything more to watch football, than you do to watch, say, Real Housewives of Atlanta.... And even you know that "the commissioner" has nothing to do with any of this. It's Terry and Kim and the rest of them that demand it be this way. They pay Goodell a ton so you will still think they are really nice people--and HE's the problem. It's a huge sum the Pegulas and their brothers are happy to pay--your post proves it's money well spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 @Alex_Flanagan Raiders have a new fan. https://twitter.com/i/videos/tweet/819606537966473216 So he's ditching one team that doesn't care about it's fans and leaves town for another team that's about to do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 hopefully they will run out of cities to use as leverage.. outside of san antonio, and im sure im missing a few, but there cant be that many left unless they now use mexico city and london as pawns I think there a quite a few(using metro populations over 2mil)... Orlando 2.4mil Portland 2.4mil San Antonio 2.4mil Sacramento 2.3mil Las Vegas 2.1mil Austin 2.0mil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Wow I understand the hate but every single topic on Kraft drunk was not at an inappropriate time. SB game, home. Calling him a drunk is absurd and well makes you sound just dumb. Mind you have no idea what this has to do with this thread, which my original post did. So if you have issues with me PM me otherwise let's not ruin the thread with a silly side argument. Wins and losses and even decade long dominance come and go, but trying to run teams out of their home markets lasts forever. I don't have any issues with you other than that you are wrong about the owner of your team. All teams should have fans. It makes the sport better overall. I don't mind that your owner tries to field a winning team. I wouldn't have it any other way. I could do without the repeated cheating but even that is secondary to the damage he and a few others are doing to the sport by trying to push teams in and out of markets thinking it will help the league when it will actually hurt. They are blinded somewhat by their greed, but mostly by their lust for power. The NE Patriots would not exist if it weren't for Ralph Wilson. That is a fact whether or not the Sullivans were the worst owners in sports history as you state. Would Kraft return the favor today if needed? LOL. In fact he has tried to push the Bills out of existence. That is low. So pardon me as a Bills fan if I view that differently than simple wins and losses and point out some of Kraft's flaws....like being a boozehound....along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Goodell Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Although we exhausted every option to have the Chargers remain in San Diego, at this time we feel the team returning to its Los Angeles roots is the most positive outcome for the team, the league, the players and the fans. And even you know that "the commissioner" has nothing to do with any of this. It's Terry and Kim and the rest of them that demand it be this way. They pay Goodell a ton so you will still think they are really nice people--and HE's the problem. It's a huge sum the Pegulas and their brothers are happy to pay--your post proves it's money well spent. I am honored to be able to work with respected owners such as the Pegulas and Krafts and to take their input where needed to push the league forward for the benefit of the players and fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) I think there a quite a few(using metro populations over 2mil)... Orlando 2.4mil Portland 2.4mil San Antonio 2.4mil Sacramento 2.3mil Las Vegas 2.1mil Austin 2.0mil i see that list and is a viable one the greedy owners can now bring into play.. take away vegas(raiders) , not sure if the others have the playpen suitable, outside of orlando and san antonio(which has the alamo dome which is probably close to be outdated by NFL standards, but always on the backburner) not sure of the rest. Edited January 12, 2017 by dwight in philly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Wins and losses and even decade long dominance come and go, but trying to run teams out of their home markets lasts forever. I don't have any issues with you other than that you are wrong about the owner of your team. All teams should have fans. It makes the sport better overall. I don't mind that your owner tries to field a winning team. I wouldn't have it any other way. I could do without the repeated cheating but even that is secondary to the damage he and a few others are doing to the sport by trying to push teams in and out of markets thinking it will help the league when it will actually hurt. They are blinded somewhat by their greed, but mostly by their lust for power. The NE Patriots would not exist if it weren't for Ralph Wilson. That is a fact whether or not the Sullivans were the worst owners in sports history as you state. Would Kraft return the favor today if needed? LOL. In fact he has tried to push the Bills out of existence. That is low. So pardon me as a Bills fan if I view that differently than simple wins and losses and point out some of Kraft's flaws....like being a boozehound....along the way. I knew about the help the Bills gave the Pats and the old Sullivan family. (Didn't take any issue with that statement.. pats were poorly run and were lucky To get the help.) as for "pushing" teams out of markets, if that was true the Jags would have moved by now to LA or anywhere else as that market sucks. Again my ONLY statement was (paraphrasing) he paid for his own stadium and only asked the state to do something they should have done anyways! Which FYI goes along with this thread. again I gave you my opinion on your drunk statement, and will leave that where it is. As it is a pointless discussion. So again to reiterate... I am proud of the fact that NONE of my tax dollars went into building the Razor and any money spent was to fix the infrastructure around the Razor is well what taxes are for. How many teams can say that their football team took 0 dollars to build their stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 How many teams can say that their football team took 0 dollars to build their stadium. The same number of teams that can say they got caught cheating twice and paid the two highest penalties in league history for their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 The same number of teams that can say they got caught cheating twice and paid the two highest penalties in league history for their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I knew about the help the Bills gave the Pats and the old Sullivan family. (Didn't take any issue with that statement.. pats were poorly run and were lucky To get the help.) as for "pushing" teams out of markets, if that was true the Jags would have moved by now to LA or anywhere else as that market sucks. Again my ONLY statement was (paraphrasing) he paid for his own stadium and only asked the state to do something they should have done anyways! Which FYI goes along with this thread. So pushing for Jon Bon Jersey and his Toronto friends was a good idea in your humble opinion? Thank God for Ralph or it would have worked. I bet Bob is still a little ticked that Ralph noticed how poorly he constructed the CBA and took advantage of this lack of attention to detail to keep the Bills in Buffalo huh? Just because he has failed in getting some franchises like Buffalo and Minnesota moved doesn't mean he'll quit trying. Personally I find the Chargers situation very sad, along with St. Louis. I get the Rams moving back in some sense but STL is a good sports town that got screwed. These palaces are being demanded by owners to increase their revenue. They are only "necessary" because Kraft and Jones deem them as such. This creates pressure...sometimes for other owners, sometimes localities, sometimes a combination. It is short sighted and will fail. I can see Jax moving to London. I see them a little differently as their fan base is genuinely weak, unlike these other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 So pushing for Jon Bon Jersey and his Toronto friends was a good idea in your humble opinion? Thank God for Ralph or it would have worked. I bet Bob is still a little ticked that Ralph noticed how poorly he constructed the CBA and took advantage of this lack of attention to detail to keep the Bills in Buffalo huh? Just because he has failed in getting some franchises like Buffalo and Minnesota moved doesn't mean he'll quit trying. Personally I find the Chargers situation very sad, along with St. Louis. I get the Rams moving back in some sense but STL is a good sports town that got screwed. These palaces are being demanded by owners to increase their revenue. They are only "necessary" because Kraft and Jones deem them as such. This creates pressure...sometimes for other owners, sometimes localities, sometimes a combination. It is short sighted and will fail. I can see Jax moving to London. I see them a little differently as their fan base is genuinely weak, unlike these other teams. lol yes he "pushed" publicly for Jon Bon Jovi and friends. Why? Because he wanted Buffalo to move? Maybe, more likely to keep his football Guru happy as he is a HUGE fan and friend of Bon Jovi. Sometimes public supporter isn't private support... As for the raising the revenue I am like in awe you think 2 owners have all that power. Especially since one is a relatively newer owner in the league in Kraft. The fact is every owner wants make more money, it doesn't take the others to sway a person move from STL to LA where the market is like 10X the size. (I agree the people in STL got hosed by that owner ) your making up a conspiracy when the truth is the owners, every one of them want to maximize their profits and for some they feel that is to move the team. (Raiders have moved how many times in 20 years) there is no conspiracy just owners wanting make more and more money. They are successful business men and or the lucky sperm that inherited it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 The same number of teams that can say they got caught cheating twice and paid the two highest penalties in league history for their crimes. I guess you're implying the Jets and Giants just haven't gotten caught yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 On another note! The Rams have hired Redskins OC Sean McVay to be their HC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 So pushing for Jon Bon Jersey and his Toronto friends was a good idea in your humble opinion? Thank God for Ralph or it would have worked. I bet Bob is still a little ticked that Ralph noticed how poorly he constructed the CBA and took advantage of this lack of attention to detail to keep the Bills in Buffalo huh? Just because he has failed in getting some franchises like Buffalo and Minnesota moved doesn't mean he'll quit trying. Personally I find the Chargers situation very sad, along with St. Louis. I get the Rams moving back in some sense but STL is a good sports town that got screwed. These palaces are being demanded by owners to increase their revenue. They are only "necessary" because Kraft and Jones deem them as such. This creates pressure...sometimes for other owners, sometimes localities, sometimes a combination. It is short sighted and will fail. I can see Jax moving to London. I see them a little differently as their fan base is genuinely weak, unlike these other teams. Did the Pegulas vote against relocation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I guess you're implying the Jets and Giants just haven't gotten caught yet... Jets have so many former employees working for the NFL and commish they, if they are cheating, would never get more than a slap on the wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I guess you're implying the Jets and Giants just haven't gotten caught yet... Nope. Not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Did the Pegulas vote against relocation? Well..Terry's is the only vote that counts in the room, and he's all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Well..Terry's is the only vote that counts in the room, and he's all for it. I find the hypocrisy surrounding Terry (and Kim) amusing. Edited January 12, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 I find the hypocrisy surrounding Terry (and Kim) amusing. Although it was disappointing that the Pegulas went along with what IMO will be bad for the league in the long run, there is a huge difference between the newest owner in the league getting swept up in the inexorable tide and a fat drunk gold digger who put the wheels in motion to begin with. Kraft's role in shaping the current environment and Pegulas are not remotely similar and you know that. I get that WEO and NH are Patriots fans, Even so I would think they would understand the benefits of team stability. I'm surprised that as a Bills fan you choose to see the Pegulas as equal partners in crime with Jones/Kraft/Krownke/Snyder/McNair et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NobesBLO13 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Not sure if this has already been posted but at least one disgruntled Charger took out his frustration an old-fashioned way: http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2017/1/12/14251254/man-eggs-chargers-hq Nice arm. Sign him up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Nice arm. Sign him up Love the certainty with the throws. I think from time he picked up each egg, it was out of his hand in under 3 seconds. TT could learn something from this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 How many teams can say that their football team took 0 dollars to build their stadium. Same # of teams who had their 'we'll move to Hartford' bluff called by state pols after those pols told the owner to buy his own land and build his own stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Although it was disappointing that the Pegulas went along with what IMO will be bad for the league in the long run, there is a huge difference between the newest owner in the league getting swept up in the inexorable tide and a fat drunk gold digger who put the wheels in motion to begin with. Kraft's role in shaping the current environment and Pegulas are not remotely similar and you know that. I get that WEO and NH are Patriots fans, Even so I would think they would understand the benefits of team stability. I'm surprised that as a Bills fan you choose to see the Pegulas as equal partners in crime with Jones/Kraft/Krownke/Snyder/McNair et al. Oh come on! They showed no respect for the legacy of Ralph Wilson only a year after he passed. Why do they get the excuse train, "they got swept up?" Terry Pegula is a billionaire with as much say as any of the other 31 NFL teams. To give him a pass for yes sirring Jones and Kraft is absurd. Harsh truth but the truth. You want to talk about principles and respect and honor? Those aren't negotiable because the cool kids won't think you're cool if you live up to them. Total horse ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Same # of teams who had their 'we'll move to Hartford' bluff called by state pols after those pols told the owner to buy his own land and build his own stadium. Got to keep up with the Joneses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Oh come on! They showed no respect for the legacy of Ralph Wilson only a year after he passed. Why do they get the excuse train, "they got swept up?" Terry Pegula is a billionaire with as much say as any of the other 31 NFL teams. To give him a pass for yes sirring Jones and Kraft is absurd. Harsh truth but the truth. You want to talk about principles and respect and honor? Those aren't negotiable because the cool kids won't think you're cool if you live up to them. Total horse ****. Were they the newest owners in the league? Had they voted no, would it have changed the ultimate result? Even someone who is still angry that Doug Marrone left can see the difference between their position and that of a guy like Kraft who has been setting the wheels in motion for years and who clearly preferred the Bills in Toronto right? Right? Would i prefer they had voted differently? Sure. I do basically agree with your statement about respect and honor. Are they at the same level as these other conniving duplicitous Bon Jersey loving dirt bags? I sure hope not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Were they the newest owners in the league? Had they voted no, would it have changed the ultimate result? Even someone who is still angry that Doug Marrone left can see the difference between their position and that of a guy like Kraft who has been setting the wheels in motion for years and who clearly preferred the Bills in Toronto right? Right? Would i prefer they had voted differently? Sure. I do basically agree with your statement about respect and honor. Are they at the same level as these other conniving duplicitous Bon Jersey loving dirt bags? I sure hope not. That's a very dangerous line of thinking. What's the line about all that evil needs to triumph? I can see the difference, sure. You don't think they're ring-leaders, just followers. Well to that I say "just following orders" is not a valid defense and they are no less culpable than Jones and Kraft in any acts the league commits that are reprehensible and heinous if they do nothing against it. Period. Wilson was a man of integrity. Love him or hate him, everyone in this league knew that. With Terry it remains to be seen if he matches Wilson in that regard. I don't like it when folks turn a blind eye to our new owners to call out another. Edited January 13, 2017 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Who would be on board with a sign and trade of Tyrod to SD/LA for Philip Rivers? The Bills would have to include a draft pick though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 That's a very dangerous line of thinking. What's the line about all that evil needs to triumph? I can see the difference, sure. You don't think they're ring-leaders, just followers. Well to that I say "just following orders" is not a valid defense and they are no less culpable than Jones and Kraft in any acts the league commits that are reprehensible and heinous if they do nothing against it. Period. Wilson was a man of integrity. Love him or hate him, everyone in this league knew that. With Terry it remains to be seen if he matches Wilson in that regard. I don't like it when folks turn a blind eye to our new owners to call out another. Clearly we disagree although not totally. I understand what you're saying. I can't realistically give the Pegulas a total pass in this regard and I agree Ralph would have voted the other way. With that said, they were the Bills only hope to stay in Buffalo and they succeeded in their purchase. I believe they will keep the team at home. They did not initiate the current environment in the league. Jones, Kraft et al did that. It is the right of all the owners to do this as distasteful as we may find it. Personally, I think it will fail to accomplish the goals they have set for it. I think there is more culpability on the part of the Kraft's than the Pegulas but I understand your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
major Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Whoever made the new chargers logo is a genius! How often do you hear this much chatter about a logo. Any press is good press when it comes to chargers. They should have moved to Mexico though. LA won't support them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) I just have a sneaking suspicion the Bolts will somehow stay... Doug Manchester is San Diego's BIG MONEY man... Not sure What he's worth, but it's at least comparable to Spanos.... He's a Die-hard Charger fan, that owns the city's newspaper...(plus a crapload of hotels) He's a San Diego Shot-Caller.... I could be wrong, but I don't see Doug Manchester sitting this one out... Edited January 13, 2017 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 I just have a sneaking suspicion the Bolts will somehow stay... Doug Manchester is San Diego's BIG MONEY man... Not sure What he's worth, but it's at least comparable to Spanos.... He's a Die-hard Charger fan, that owns the city's newspaper...(plus a crapload of hotels) He's a San Diego Shot-Caller.... I could be wrong, but I don't see Doug Manchester sitting this one out... soooo what's he waiting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 (edited) Damn...the end of one of the great team songs in the NFL.... San...Diego.... SUPER CHARGERS.... San Diego....Chargers... San Diego SUPER CHARGERS... Edited January 13, 2017 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanNH Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Same # of teams who had their 'we'll move to Hartford' bluff called by state pols after those pols told the owner to buy his own land and build his own stadium. Sigh amazing how ignorant people are on the subject. First he already owned the land! Second he wanted ONE thing and got hem to blink. Amazing how people twist it.. then again there is a bill fan calling him a drunk and a gold digger.. even though he MADE all the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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