What is happening on Defense?

[26CornerBlitz]

Mario Williams stated after the game that he probably set a record by dropping into pass coverage.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/182076-mario-williams-talks/

 

I lnked the Albert Breer NFL.com piece on this earlier in this thread. It's clear the scheme isn't working against the more experienced QBs.

[SWATeam]

 

I lnked the Albert Breer NFL.com piece on this earlier in this thread. It's clear the scheme isn't working against the more experienced QBs.

The "scheme" is idiotic even to the most casual fan

[It's in My Blood]

I wonder if am Rex has given too much responsibility to Thurmond.

[Mikie2times]

There are probably some scheme things that can be changed but some of this is just regression to the mean. What is the Bills D going to do, set a new sack record every year? Teams ( and coaches) are going to try and take that strength away. The good QBs they have faced were largely able to do that. And let's forget the Belichick references about players & schemes. He's run the same D in NE for years and drafts players that can do what he wants. He's not a new HC of a new team that inherited a roster . Fancy explanations are fine but sometimes it's just little things. Why is Seattles D blowing games? They have all their same guys back, no? Sometimes players just aren't playing as well or are just getting beat.

This is too fast for it to be regression based in my opinion. If it was that simple to take away our pass rush by executing a short/timing based passing game, why would anybody place emphasis on building a strong DL pass rush? So the punch to our pass rush is the short timing routes, when will we see Rex come up with something that look like a counter punch? As for Seattle, they should have regressed last year. They have already exceeded standard regression at this stage by such a large margin they're more comparable to the Patriots than any normal NFL team. My expectation is not to lead the league in sacks. My concerns is to lead the league in sacks consecutive years and barely be able to touch the QB with identical players. If anything we have gotten better as far as talent with the addition of Darby.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

 

They had only 10 men on the field that mad3 a timeout necessary when the Bengals had a trips right formation. Lining up Rambo on Eifert is not smart.....TD! I called that as soon as I noticed.

Smart play by them. Right when they split Eifert out, I knew it was a fade. The problem is that there is nothing we could have done about it (except Rambo knocking it down).

[Freddie's Dead]

 

wow-- only one QB hit.

And by guess who? THE DUKE!!!

[Dr. K]

When they hired Rex I felt this sick feeling that the defense would be much worse than it was under Schwartz. I so wanted them to hire a good offensive minded head coach and keep Schwartz and his team on defense. But instead the Pegulas got all dazzled by Sexy Rexy and here we are. The best pass rush in the league last year is now 27th.

[BADOLBILZ]

Jim Schwartz isn't a great DC.

 

He is a 1 trick pony as a DC and he's gone down in flames with his D when he didn't have great talent up front.

 

He was a perfect hire because the TALENT in place was perfect to execute his scheme.

 

Rex is making the least of the talent at his disposal.

 

The Ryan system is old news.....teams know that his scheme is complicated and his players are dumb and they are actively trying to cause them to make adjustments on every play and they are left unsure and in unathletic positions to make plays.

 

I am really surprised at how inflexible Rex has been with his system.

 

Good coaches use schemes that maximize the talent around them.

 

Was reminiscing today with some long time fans about the way Wade used to adjust his D to the talent he had.......and one of them brought up the time the Bills lost Spielman and Covington in the same week and then switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 the following week and dominated the Dolphins.

 

Rex is looking like an inflexible, one trick pony right now and the talent in place is wrong for that system.

[Coach Tuesday]

Jim Schwartz isn't a great DC.

 

He is a 1 trick pony as a DC and he's gone down in flames with his D when he didn't have great talent up front.

 

He was a perfect hire because the TALENT in place was perfect to execute his scheme.

 

Rex is making the least of the talent at his disposal.

 

The Ryan system is old news.....teams know that his scheme is complicated and his players are dumb and they are actively trying to cause them to make adjustments on every play and they are left unsure and in unathletic positions to make plays.

 

I am really surprised at how inflexible Rex has been with his system.

 

Good coaches use schemes that maximize the talent around them.

 

Was reminiscing today with some long time fans about the way Wade used to adjust his D to the talent he had.......and one of them brought up the time the Bills lost Spielman and Covington in the same week and then switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 the following week and dominated the Dolphins.

 

Rex is looking like an inflexible, one trick pony right now and the talent in place is wrong for that system.

 

But ironically enough, Rex's complicated scheme is designed (IMO) to mask talent deficiencies and generate pressure concepts without having elite passrushers. He doesn't need to employ that level of complication in Buffalo because he has the talent across the board. Seems simple to me...

[HalftimeAdjustment]

Yeah, let's drop Mario into coverage. Idiots

 

On the other hand, did any throws beat him in coverage?

[Coach Tuesday]

 

On the other hand, did any throws beat him in coverage?

 

Yes, all of the throws that were able to be made and completed because he was not rushing the passer.

[Prickly Pete]

If I were Rex Ryan I would now start muzzling my players.

[3rdand12]

I dont miss Marrone.

But I miss Jim? He did not adjust quickly enough , but man he had a nice scheme.

 

BRING BACK THE SCHWARTZ

[BADOLBILZ]

 

But ironically enough, Rex's complicated scheme is designed (IMO) to mask talent deficiencies and generate pressure concepts without having elite passrushers. He doesn't need to employ that level of complication in Buffalo because he has the talent across the board. Seems simple to me...

 

Exactly.

 

People forget that the Jets D that Ryan inherited was considered to be poorly stocked.

 

I think it's also forgotten that Buddy and Whaley....and even Modrak before them......weren't drafting players for smarts.

 

Lotta' low IQ's on that current Bills roster and it's showing up in Rex's complicated scheme.

 

Pettine used similar terminology etc.. but one of the keys to his D was Kiko Alonso making a TON of individual plays that Preston Brown and Bradham aren't athletic or instinctive enough to make.

 

Get back to the simple Schwartz-like attack......spread that D-Line out.....get man-to-man matchups with OL and separate them from their fellow lineman.

 

Press receivers......pressure QB's......force them to throw over or between the DL and funnel the running game into the MIDDLE.

[3rdand12]

 

I'm telling you, to my untrained eye, it's the rush angles. Last year they were pinching the pocket on every passing play (while pickling peppers). This year they seem to be rushing straighter upfield, leaving the pocket intact. It seems to me that they're doing it to better account for the rushing lanes but they're not collapsing the pocket at all. Ever. It's asinine.

Wide nine. funnel it all to the MLB.

[3rdand12]

I have to think it's scheme based issues. I know we find ourselves unsure as to what responsibilities players have in a 3-4 vs a Rex Ryan 3-4, but in a traditional 3-4 your DT is a NT/anchor. Think Ted Washington. It's a role that is meant to consume as many blockers as possible. Then you have 2 very physical DE's, almost closer to what a conventional pass rushing 4-3 DT would be. The outside backers are your real pass rushers, but they have to be athletic enough to cover as they will drop into coverage. Ideally you wouldn't want your OLB's to essentially be converted DE's.

 

Can Dareus be an outstanding 3-4 NT? Sure, but he's a heck of a interior pass rusher and if you make him an NT you take that away. Can Mario be an OLB? Sure. He's incredibly athletic, but do you really want him to be dropping back into coverage? Same with Hughes. On the flip side, both Hughes and Mario are not ideal 3-4 DE's. Since we don't have a true 3-4 DE, why not move Kyle over. Can Kyle be a very good 3-4 DE? Sure, he has the qualities, but it's certainly not his natural position. A 4-3 defense is what this team is built around. Mario is a text book 4-3 DE. Hughes is a mix between a 4-3 End and a 3-4 OLB. Kyle and Dareus are dominating as 4-3 DT's. This whole player fit was my concern entering the season but I felt based on Pettine it wouldn't hurt us. Well, it seems to be hurting us.

 

Perhaps Rex brings twice the playbook, as most have commented, this defense does not seem to be playing right now. They seem to be stuck in assignment mode, often times not even knowing the assignment. Players need to play, not think. We have the wrong roster for the system and in the ways that it's functional, Rex has done a poor job putting players in position to be successful by what is being asked of them. The whole term "A Rex Ryan" defense. I just don't think Rex knows how to dumb it down so guys can just play. He has to have his urine all over it to fit the Bravado that is Rex Ryan. I would rather have a defense not named after it's coach, but named after it's players, with a coach that is putting his players in the best places to be successful at all times regardless if it lacks some sort coaching name brand. Who is responsible for the Legion of Boom? Pete Carroll. His name doesn't get attached to it like a Rex Ryan defense, but it's one of the best defensive runs in the last 15 years. It's named after the players and I really don't think a guy like Carroll cares what they call it or what he does. He just wants to win. Rex needs to stop peeing on stuff and let the talent on this team make him look good.

damn damn good post to consider Mike. food for thought !

[Nihilarian]

 

I lnked the Albert Breer NFL.com piece on this earlier in this thread. It's clear the scheme isn't working against the more experienced QBs.

The Buffalo Bills have arguably the very best front four in the NFL, and those four were the very best in sacks last season. They were #2 in sacks in 2013 under Ryan's protege with the Jets in Mike Pettine.

 

To put in perspective how bad the Bills DC is miss utilizing those highly paid D linemen. Last season they were #1 in sack percentage, and sacks. This year they are 27th out of 32 in sack percentage, and 20th in sacks.

 

Dropping Hughes, Kyle Williams, Mario Williams into pass coverage is simply idiotic when they are so darn good at rushing the passer. This team is not designed to run zone blitzes like the Pittsburgh Steelers were as they had great linebackers, and average D linemen. So when those D linemen dropped into pass coverage it wasn't a big deal, and they weren't especially good at getting to the QB anyway.

[Coach Tuesday]

Sounds like a great plan. Unfortunately I don't see Rex's ego allowing it.

 

Rex came in thinking he'd show everyone how brilliant his complex D would be with 11 great players executing it. That idea has crashed and burned for a number of reasons, including, as BADOL points out, the fact that Whaley and Rex have brought in a lot of knuckleheads on that side of the ball.

 

But I also doubt his ego will let him fail with all of this talent in place - talk about upending your own legacy. He'll figure it out. It's hard for him because tinkering is what he does best and this D is best without much tinkering. But his ego will be what forces him to fix it.

[3rdand12]

Smart play by them. Right when they split Eifert out, I knew it was a fade. The problem is that there is nothing we could have done about it (except Rambo knocking it down).

Mario even got his hands up. that was apiss off. good play bengals aarrgghh

[BADOLBILZ]

Sounds like a great plan. Unfortunately I don't see Rex's ego allowing it.

 

It was pretty obvious during the Patriots game that the scheme was the problem but people didn't want to believe that the scheme was f*cked for the personnel at hand and whining about the quick release throws etc..

 

After the game today in his PC.......for the first time this year.......Rex was talking about having to re-evaluate whether they were putting players on D in the right position to succeed.

 

The scheme has cost them all 3 games they've lost.

 

Time to man-up Rex.

[3rdand12]

Jim Schwartz isn't a great DC.

 

He is a 1 trick pony as a DC and he's gone down in flames with his D when he didn't have great talent up front.

 

He was a perfect hire because the TALENT in place was perfect to execute his scheme.

 

Rex is making the least of the talent at his disposal.

 

The Ryan system is old news.....teams know that his scheme is complicated and his players are dumb and they are actively trying to cause them to make adjustments on every play and they are left unsure and in unathletic positions to make plays.

 

I am really surprised at how inflexible Rex has been with his system.

 

Good coaches use schemes that maximize the talent around them.

 

Was reminiscing today with some long time fans about the way Wade used to adjust his D to the talent he had.......and one of them brought up the time the Bills lost Spielman and Covington in the same week and then switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3 the following week and dominated the Dolphins.

 

Rex is looking like an inflexible, one trick pony right now and the talent in place is wrong for that system.

Man i dont often agree with you, although i sure respect your pov.

i think you might be correct. One thing i expected was flexibility from Rex. adapt and over come. but he seems to be a bit off. today i noticed again that Thurman is not calling D plays

[NoSaint]

 

They had only 10 men on the field that made a timeout necessary when the Bengals had a trips right formation. Lining up Rambo on Eifert is not smart.....TD! I called that as soon as I noticed.

The 10 men is another example of being disorganized on defense. I won't fault them for occasional bad matchups but it seemed there were several "wait no ones covering that guy" or "what am I supposed to be doing" moments

[3rdand12]

 

Rex came in thinking he'd show everyone how brilliant his complex D would be with 11 great players executing it. That idea has crashed and burned for a number of reasons, including, as BADOL points out, the fact that Whaley and Rex have brought in a lot of knuckleheads on that side of the ball.

 

But I also doubt his ego will let him fail with all of this talent in place - talk about upending your own legacy. He'll figure it out. It's hard for him because tinkering is what he does best and this D is best without much tinkering. But his ego will be what forces him to fix it.

Interesting take.

i will continue to hope you are correct. the Man is no slouch nor is anyone on the staff.

The 10 men is another example of being disorganized on defense. I won't fault them for occasional bad matchups but it seemed there were several "wait no ones covering that guy" or "what am I supposed to be doing" moments

At least brown caught it

[Nihilarian]

 

Exactly.

 

People forget that the Jets D that Ryan inherited was considered to be poorly stocked.

 

I think it's also forgotten that Buddy and Whaley....and even Modrak before them......weren't drafting players for smarts.

 

Lotta' low IQ's on that current Bills roster and it's showing up in Rex's complicated scheme.

 

Pettine used similar terminology etc.. but one of the keys to his D was Kiko Alonso making a TON of individual plays that Preston Brown and Bradham aren't athletic or instinctive enough to make.

 

Get back to the simple Schwartz-like attack......spread that D-Line out.....get man-to-man matchups with OL and separate them from their fellow lineman.

 

Press receivers......pressure QB's......force them to throw over or between the DL and funnel the running game into the MIDDLE.

The current defensive scheme is not that complicated! Its that these stupid Bills coaches are asking those great pass rushing D linemen to drop into pass coverage far to often. What do you think is the smarter thing to do with Mario Williams?

 

If this Bills DC would just ask his front four to rush like you suggest with the Schwartz like attack, and rotate those linemen more so they are fresher in the fourth quarter then things would start looking like they did last year!

 

I want sacks!

[Reed83HOF]

I want sacks!

 

I want wins...

[17 Josh Allen]

Do you think when Don Shula had Dan Marino he thought to himself oh boy I am a running coach becuase I had Larry Csonka, Kick and Mercury Morris and we ran the ball like 50 times a game. A good coach knows how to use his personnel. Rex is trying to force his defensive ideas on this team and he does not have the right personnel. He should let this team go back to letting the defensive line go into full attack mode and play the NINE WIDE defense. He's trying to force a defense on this team that can'y play the style he wants. Rex does not have the linebackers to play this style defense he is trying to install. Rex just needs to swallow his pride. Why can't he see the Bills defense is going backwards. This was once feared defense and now they are playing passive and look like a bunch of girls out there. get your act together Rex This is starting to get embarrassing to watch.

[BADOLBILZ]

The current defensive scheme is not that complicated! Its that these stupid Bills coaches are asking those great pass rushing D linemen to drop into pass coverage far to often. What do you think is the smarter thing to do with Mario Williams?

 

If this Bills DC would just ask his front four to rush like you suggest with the Schwartz like attack, and rotate those linemen more so they are fresher in the fourth quarter then things would start looking like they did last year!

 

I want sacks!

 

Yeah, it's actually pretty complicated.

 

Rex takes pride in having such a complicated scheme with so many adjustments.

 

But the Bengals were making a mockery of Rex D by making the Bills decide their assignments while they employed some "exotic" shifts.

 

It was embarrassing.

[Nuncha]

What is happening is simple - Rex Ryan is here.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Rex came in thinking he'd show everyone how brilliant his complex D would be with 11 great players executing it. That idea has crashed and burned for a number of reasons, including, as BADOL points out, the fact that Whaley and Rex have brought in a lot of knuckleheads on that side of the ball.

 

But I also doubt his ego will let him fail with all of this talent in place - talk about upending your own legacy. He'll figure it out. It's hard for him because tinkering is what he does best and this D is best without much tinkering. But his ego will be what forces him to fix it.

 

How many great HC's are defined simply by their expertise on one side of the ball?

 

Rex needs to worry about his HC legacy NOT his legacy as a defensive mastermind.

[26CornerBlitz]

@JohnKryk

Rex is gonna lose #Bills locker room if he doesn't start getting aggressive with defensive playcalling. My column: http://blogs.canoe.com/krykslants/nfl/rex-is-gonna-lose-bills-locker-room-if-he-doesnt-start-getting-aggressive-with-defensive-playcalling/

[BrooklynBills]

Pettine D line front=> multiple but a lot of 43 under looks

 

Schwartz=> wide 9

 

Ryan=> a more traditional 34 front

 

Pettine and Ryan have similar schemes but they are different.

 

This personnel is perfect for playing 43 under front. They lack the huge NT up front to clog the middle to play this defense. Dareus is not that player.

[The Frankish Reich]

 

How many great HC's are defined simply by their expertise on one side of the ball?

 

Rex needs to worry about his HC legacy NOT his legacy as a defensive mastermind.

Excellent point. And if you look around the NFL at some of the really good or great coaches, you'll see that they started as assistants on the opposite side of the ball to what they became known for. Belichick became known as a defensive coach but started with special teams and wide receivers.

[BADOLBILZ]

Pettine D line front=> multiple but a lot of 43 under looks

 

Schwartz=> wide 9

 

Ryan=> a more traditional 34 front

 

Pettine and Ryan have similar schemes but they are different.

 

This personnel is perfect for playing 43 under front. They lack the huge NT up front to clog the middle to play this defense. Dareus is not that player.

 

 

Dareus could be great at it....he makes a ton of stack and shed plays.......but NT's just aren't valued because objective one around the league defensively is to get into backfields and disrupt QB's........ and it would be a tremendous waste of his talent to be exclusively a double team draw.

 

When he expressed a disinterest in doing what his DL coach wanted him to do this summer that was the very first sign of things to come.

[dave mcbride]

@JohnKryk

Rex is gonna lose #Bills locker room if he doesn't start getting aggressive with defensive playcalling. My column: http://blogs.canoe.com/krykslants/nfl/rex-is-gonna-lose-bills-locker-room-if-he-doesnt-start-getting-aggressive-with-defensive-playcalling/

Good piece by kryk.

[Not at the table Karlos]

There is entirely too much thinking going on. There are constant communication issues at each position group. Every play it seems like there is one player that needs to be told where to go which then makes 2 or 3 now out of position correcting the one player.

 

Field position from penalties on special teams and defense along with fair catching the ball at the ten or two yard line.

 

I'm a huge fan of Rex Ryan and his "defense" but his do a little of everything move players around multiple scheme isn't working. I agree with most of you that we need to simplify things and do more of what we did last year

[dave mcbride]

Yeah, it's actually pretty complicated.

 

Rex takes pride in having such a complicated scheme with so many adjustments.

 

But the Bengals were making a mockery of Rex D by making the Bills decide their assignments while they employed some "exotic" shifts.

 

It was embarrassing.

Duke Williams appeared to be out of position a lot (nothing new there). I also think he's the dumbest of the lot.

[NoSaint]

Duke Williams appeared to be out of position a lot (nothing new there). I also think he's the dumbest of the lot.

I'll buy that. It's a big drop when he's on the field.

[JohnnyBuffalo]

It seems pretty simple to me....4 guys up front are expected to get pressure...they aren't. They are getting blocked. Today was awful. Dropping 7 only works if they force the ball out of the QB's hands...these million dollar men up front didn't get it done. Been a few games like that.

[BmarvB]

I've heard all sorts of rationalization for the regression but at what point do you say, ya...It's not as good as last years team.

 

The defense is playing 10th-15th rated football right now, no better, no worse. The 2013 squad rated 4th in Footballoutsiders.com DVOA, 2014 squad rated #2, the 2015 squad rates 10th, and will surely be falling to the 15 range after this game. I'm having a hard time with our defense regressing at the hands of a HC whose supposed to the best defensive mind in the business. It's hard for me to reconcile what that says about his coaching abilities?

 

The path to the playoffs was with the defense being elite. We have 100's of millions tied up into the DL with a couple of those guys likely approaching decline based on age vs the incline. This really looked to be our window defensively to be special and it's just not happening. Players aren't lining up right, they're struggling to communicate, the deep seams are wide open, we haven't solved for the short passing game, we have no game plan for above average TE's, and our pressure is marginal. Now we might have lost K. Williams?

 

How can't this reflect very poorly on Rex? It's his specialty and a regression from elite to average is enough to keep us out of the playoffs.

 

He should have kept them in the same system Schwartz was successful with, and just added some of his wrinkles to it instead of changing it altogether.

Coaching advantage so far - Schwartz.

[Nihilarian]

 

Yeah, it's actually pretty complicated.

 

Rex takes pride in having such a complicated scheme with so many adjustments.

 

But the Bengals were making a mockery of Rex D by making the Bills decide their assignments while they employed some "exotic" shifts.

 

It was embarrassing.

I disagree, as its really not more complicated then most defenses and that saying its complicated is just an excuse Ryan used when he was asked about it. He isn't doing anything new that has never been run before or that the players can't grasp. Its that they are being asked to do things that don't come close to what they do best. This defense is like a zone blitz that asks the D linemen to cover certain gaps, drop into coverage and for the most part asking them to not rush the passer.

 

Going all out after the QB is what those front four do best, and its what has allowed them to make 28% of the teams payroll on just those front four. Its not their fault either because Marcel Dareus has been complaining about the way Ryan has been using the front four all year, and now Mario.

 

Kinda why last years defense was the #1 sacking team in the league, and this year they are 20th, and 27th in sack percentage.

 

Kinda ironical that this years slogan is "feel the rush" What rush? The rush of passes zinging to the receivers hands while making the front four look bad? The Bills defense only managed one pressure on Dalton all day, and no sacks.