May Day 10 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I remember the narrative in the early mid 00s was how much preparation brady did throughout the week to prepare for his opponent. Hmmmm. This team constantly let's talent walk, notches drafts, allows coordinators and execd to walk (who always stink elsewhere)... key injuries, yet they never miss a beat? The bills botch a 1st rounder and we pay for it for like 4 years Edited September 9, 2015 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I said from day one deflate gate had nothing to do with air pressure. It was about the cover up of Spygate and burning the tapes. Roger bailed them out once and they cheated again. I'm not the only one to have this thought but I posted it several times. Roger is complicit in the cover-up with his buddy Robert Kraft. Only Robert forgot the rules of a cover-up. He threw the wrong guy under the bus. Brady needed to do his time for the good of the organization. Roger can only keep the other 31 owners at bay for so long. This is a conspiracy. And not an imaginary one. It is just a matter of time before the right whistleblower with the right evidence takes them down. This is bad enough to vacate wins and championships. It is bad enough to affect HOF eligibity. And for Mr. Kraft and Mr. Bundchen's sake they better hope Vegas didn't lose a ton of money... It's also bad enough to cost Roger his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Even my wife (who works in marketing and is very familiar with astroturfers on social media) noticed that odd trend earlier this summer on Deflategate-related stories--lots of similar posts from folks with ridiculous handles (her favorite was "DebfromNebraska", a true Pats* fan) that sound made up and lots of up postings of pro-Pats* comments coming in swarms (as opposed to coming in naturally over time). It's amazing. At first it sounds like real paranoid, tin-foil hat kind of stuff, but it's happening. In business, in politics and now sports: a large organization like the NFL, or NBC, with a vested interest in making this all go away, making things seem on the up-and-up, shaping the conversation to their benefit, making it look as "real" as possible. Well, at least it helps one keep their b#llsh#t detector sharp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) First, it makes me physically ill to think the scumbag franchise cheated all those years and were set up to be the 'model' franchise due to their illegitimate 'success' - there is absolutely no doubt in my mind they never would have won anything (no genius Bellicheat, no GOAT Brady) without the systemic cheating in multiple different forms that existed for years. Actually I think the sad thing is that both Belicheat*** and Brady*** are immensely talented, driven individuals and would likely have won almost as much without cheating. Yet their long-term reputations in the sport are forever tarnished by the known cheating. After all, if a coach and team have documented instances of cheating, one always wonders if that is the tip of the iceberg and what cheating took place that has not been exposed. I think it all started w/technology and the cutting of the headset cord and going wireless. Mix that in w/the green dot on helmets. The game needs to get back to basics and lose the technology. Because no one ever stole the hand signals used to call in plays (in the case of defensive plays up to 2008)? Edited September 9, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Actually I think the sad thing is that both Belicheat*** and Brady*** are immensely talented, driven individuals and would likely have won almost as much without cheating. Yet their long-term reputations in the sport are forever tarnished by the known cheating. Who even knows at this point? I'm not so sure. This thing seems to go very, very deep. Brady's numbers and wins have got to be inflated quite a bit by having the ability to call into the correct play, knowing the defense throughout his career. Does he even have a 'highlight reel'? or is it just a long history of 'finding the right play'? Looking at his combine workout he looks like a contest winner. Edited September 9, 2015 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The media gets all indignant at a player that juices but yawns at the Pats subterfuge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Actually I think the sad thing is that both Belicheat*** and Brady*** are immensely talented, driven individuals and would likely have won almost as much without cheating. Yet their long-term reputations in the sport are forever tarnished by the known cheating. This is where I disagree. Bellicheat is known for his 'adjustments' - how hard is it to adjust when you find out what the other team is going to do? Brady is known for his uncanny ability to find the hot read and correct receiver against a defense. How hard is that when you know what the defensive call is? How much of their success time after time is Brady throwing a slant to the one correct read against a defense - no one talks about his great athleticism or ability - it's all predicated on knowing what the defense is doing. I hate the argument "they are so good, they don't need to cheat" - they were good BECAUSE they cheated. Other people have talked about various games and situations that seemed unbelievable. For me it all changed the home game in 2004 (the Richard Seymour fumble return game). There were two separate plays that are burned in my memory. In both cases the Bills brought a blitz, and both times Brady just chucked the ball long as the blitzer came, in both cases he literally was not even looking where he was throwing, was more ducking to avoid the blitzer - long bombs complete to the only open area on the field, that he never even looked at. I sat there both times and though WTF, it was like he knew exactly what was coming and where the open part of the field would be before the ball was snapped. As soon as Spygate was revealed those plays were the first thing I thought of. It absolutely blows my mind there are talking heads and people who continue the Brady one of the best all time narrative, when he should be disgraced and treated the same as Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds - he was in the center of a systemic multi-faceted program of cheating for basically his whole career - he was successful because he cheated plain and simple. Edited September 9, 2015 by stevewin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The media gets all indignant at a player that juices but yawns at the Pats subterfuge. When was the last time "the media" got indignant over an NFL player juicing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Actually I think the sad thing is that both Belicheat*** and Brady*** are immensely talented, driven individuals and would likely have won almost as much without cheating. It's a personality flaw/sickness, in my opinion. Barry Bonds very likely would have been the greatest baseball player of all time without cheating. Hitting more than 755 HRs would have been unlikely, but he still could have been the best. Manny Ramirez ... a truly gifted pure hitter, also would have likely been one of the greatest without cheating. Alex Rodriguez ... same thing. Being the best, or one of the best, isn't good enough for people like this. They feel the need to blow people out of the water. Winning isn't enough. They need to win by a lot. Being the best HR hitter of one's generation? Not enough. Had to be the *best* of all time. It's a sickness. I honestly believe that the Patriots would have won multiple Super Bowls without cheating. We'll obviously never know, but I think they would have been a legitimate dynasty. Bill B. and Brady are two peas in a pod. From the same pod as guys like Bonds, Ramirez, Rodriguez, McGuire, Sosa ... the list goes on and on. When being one of the greatest in the world at what you do isn't satisfying, there's something wrong between the ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Bill B. and Brady are two peas in a pod. From the same pod as guys like Bonds, Ramirez, Rodriguez, McGuire, Sosa ... the list goes on and on. Except... Those guys you list all pretty much demonstrated they were all-world talents BEFORE they began juicing. Bill B. was a good D-coordinator and a middling HC at best; Brady a backup at Michigan who barely got drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Except... Those guys you list all pretty much demonstrated they were all-world talents BEFORE they began juicing. Bill B. was a good D-coordinator and a middling HC at best; Brady a backup at Michigan who barely got drafted. Actually, Brady was excellent at Michigan. He led the Big 10 in passer rating his senior season and had a strong career overall. He had a monster Orange Bowl, and Michigan defeated Alabama to end up at #5 in the polls. Brady was the team MVP that year. I know everyone hates Brady, but let's not distort history. He was a very good college player. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Michigan_Wolverines_football_team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Orange_Bowl http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tom-brady-1.html When was the last time "the media" got indignant over an NFL player juicing? They don't because they know that quite possibly a majority of NFL players juice (HGH) to deal with injuries. It is swept under the rug, and honestly it might be for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Actually, Brady was excellent at Michigan. He led the Big 10 in passer rating his senior season and had a strong career overall. He had a monster Orange Bowl, and Michigan defeated Alabama to end up at #5 in the polls. Brady was the team MVP that year. I know everyone hates Brady, but let's not distort history. He was a very good college player. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Michigan_Wolverines_football_team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Orange_Bowl http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tom-brady-1.html I think he was a good college player...very good college QBs tend to get drafted earlier than the 199th pick as a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Actually, Brady was excellent at Michigan. He led the Big 10 in passer rating his senior season and had a strong career overall. He had a monster Orange Bowl, and Michigan defeated Alabama to end up at #5 in the polls. Brady was the team MVP that year. I know everyone hates Brady, but let's not distort history. He was a very good college player. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Michigan_Wolverines_football_team https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Orange_Bowl http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tom-brady-1.html They don't because they know that quite possibly a majority of NFL players juice (HGH) to deal with injuries. It is swept under the rug, and honestly it might be for the best. He was also a spindly kid who developed a cannon for an arm once he got to Foxboro. How about that. I guess he wasn't done growing. Edited September 9, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 He was also a spindly kid who developed a cannon for an arm once he got to Foxboro. How about that. I guess he wasn't done growing. Players do get better, you know. I know you always assume the worst about him, but honestly I don't know what your point is here. Are you accusing him of juicing? You do realize that most players from the Bills probably juice too, right (at least w/regard to HGH)? There's a reason the league and players never push the issue about testing for HGH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Has any Pats assistant coach ever gone on to succeed anywhere else? Bill O'Brien's the only current head coach from the Belichick "tree." Jim Schwartz is the longest-tenured...but he was only under Belichick as a "research assistant" in Cleveland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Tom - He may have a point. Adams was involved in the municipal bonds market in the late 80s-early 90s, and there was some built in corruption (i.e., chances to cheat). Fyi - http://www.nytimes.com/1993/09/18/news/investing-for-municipal-bonds-scandals-spur-change.html . That article did not address cheating in the muni bond market. It discussed possible corruption in awarding the lead underwriting roles. Not one & the same. And that brings it back to Tom's point. Take this line of thought to PPP where it will be accorded proper treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 That article did not address cheating in the muni bond market. It discussed possible corruption in awarding the lead underwriting roles. Not one & the same. And that brings it back to Tom's point. Take this line of thought to PPP where it will be accorded proper treatment. It's not really a political point at all - I'm just saying that he was in a world in which the ability to game the edges of the system in order to gain advance knowledge along with some expertise at subterfuge might generate rewards for someone who has an affinity for those arts. Like, you know, someone who just happens to be Belichick's life partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It's not really a political point at all - I'm just saying that he was in a world in which the ability to game the edges of the system in order to gain advance knowledge along with some expertise at subterfuge might generate rewards for someone who has an affinity for those arts. Like, you know, someone who just happens to be Belichick's life partner. Then you should have introduced an article where Adams was suspected of insider trading, not of Liz Holtzman accepting campaign contributions from lead underwriters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Buffalo Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) It's amazing. At first it sounds like real paranoid, tin-foil hat kind of stuff, but it's happening. In business, in politics and now sports: a large organization like the NFL, or NBC, with a vested interest in making this all go away, making things seem on the up-and-up, shaping the conversation to their benefit, making it look as "real" as possible. Well, at least it helps one keep their b#llsh#t detector sharp. Yes its done often and has been for a long time... used to do it with editorial comments on political items when i did campaign work... my dog wrote in a few timed! Edited September 10, 2015 by North Buffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Then you should have introduced an article where Adams was suspected of insider trading, not of Liz Holtzman accepting campaign contributions from lead underwriters. As I understand it, the muni market was rife with problems in the late 80s/early 90s (and corruption is definitely a form of cheating, at least in my opinion). Ernie A worked in that world for a half decade or so, and while he may have been entirely clean, that world wasn't. And he hasin fact been neck deep in almost all of Belichick's underhanded strategems for decades. Anyway, it does make me wonder. Not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agua Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What I want to know is WHAT will the NFL DO to STOP THEM FROM CONTINUING TO CHEAT?? ANYTHING?!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 As I understand it, the muni market was rife with problems in the late 80s/early 90s (and corruption is definitely a form of cheating, at least in my opinion). Ernie A worked in that world for a half decade or so, and while he may have been entirely clean, that world wasn't. And he hasin fact been neck deep in almost all of Belichick's underhanded strategems for decades. Anyway, it does make me wonder. Not a big deal. The abuse in municipals was because the market was illiquid and thus opaque allowing for wide spreads in the buying & selling activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Has any Pats assistant coach ever gone on to succeed anywhere else? Bill O'Brien's the only current head coach from the Belichick "tree." Jim Schwartz is the longest-tenured...but he was only under Belichick as a "research assistant" in Cleveland. None that I can think of offhand. That was one of O'Leary's points/argument in his Spygate book--continual success despite a revolving door of no name coordinators who try their luck elsewhere and fail miserably. In one case (McDaniel), trying to cheat elsewhere, failing miserably and coming back "home". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 None that I can think of offhand. That was one of O'Leary's points/argument in his Spygate book--continual success despite a revolving door of no name coordinators who try their luck elsewhere and fail miserably. In one case (McDaniel), trying to cheat elsewhere, failing miserably and coming back "home". Nick Saban and Kirk Ferentz have done well for themselves, but they were assistants in Cleveland, not NE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Players do get better, you know. I know you always assume the worst about him, but honestly I don't know what your point is here. Are you accusing him of juicing? You do realize that most players from the Bills probably juice too, right (at least w/regard to HGH)? There's a reason the league and players never push the issue about testing for HGH. Uh yeah. Because a number of other Pats** players juiced. Or do you believe all those miraculous recoveries from injury by players like Colvin and Bruschi came from protein shakes? As for players getting better, haven't we already proven that's impossible? (see: EJ threads) Edited September 9, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What I want to know is WHAT will the NFL DO to STOP THEM FROM CONTINUING TO CHEAT?? ANYTHING?!!? Nothing, I hope. Instead, let the rest of the league cheat against them. Pump in crowd noise, !@#$ with the headsets, give every player a radio channel, steal the Pats footballs and over-inflate them, turn a blind eye to roughing calls. Hell, let wide receivers pepper spray the defensive backs for all I care, because !@#$ these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy in 4C Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What I want to know is WHAT will the NFL DO to STOP THEM FROM CONTINUING TO CHEAT?? ANYTHING?!!? I'm with you - there's nothing that is going to happen. Just like a college program, by the time it catches up to them the coach and all the players will be retired. There might be an asterix but it won't matter - they won't take the superbowls away. The sickening part is that throughout all the years they cheated, they were beating us two games per season. Had we just been able to split with them, it could have made those 8-8 teams 9-7 or 9-7 teams 10-6 and possibly in the playoffs 1 or 2 of those 15 years. That would have made this 15 year stretch a little more tolerable. Last year when we had the snow out game, it really revealed how bad the Patriots cheating was. We REFUSED to play a neutral site game in their building due to "competitive reasons" and inconvenienced ourselves to go to Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 None that I can think of offhand. That was one of O'Leary's points/argument in his Spygate book--continual success despite a revolving door of no name coordinators who try their luck elsewhere and fail miserably. In one case (McDaniel), trying to cheat elsewhere, failing miserably and coming back "home". And Matt Cassel had his best completion percentage and yards passing in NE...and has been pretty much mediocre since (one season with KC aside). He's someone who made a great deal of money off the Pats' cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Nick Saban and Kirk Ferentz have done well for themselves, but they were assistants in Cleveland, not NE. As has Urban Meyer, who I think was with Belicheat at some point, but that's in college, where outside things like recruiting can be half the battle. In addition, Saban and his body of work in Miami is a good example in the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) As has Urban Meyer, who I think was with Belicheat at some point, but that's in college, where outside things like recruiting can be half the battle. In addition, Saban and his body of work in Miami is a good example in the other direction. Saban chalks up his failure in Miami to the Miami doctors' advice to steer clear of Brees. That looks like blame shifting, but honestly, it's the truth. If he had Brees, he likely would have succeeded in Miami. He didn't have a good qb. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/nick-saban-i-might-still-be-in-miami-if-they-let-me-sign-drew-brees/ Edited September 9, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Saban chalks up his failure in Miami to the GM's decision to pull back from Brees. That looks like blame shifting, but honestly, it's the truth. If he had Brees, he likely would have succeeded in Miami. He didn't have a good qb. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/09/06/nick-saban-i-might-still-be-in-miami-if-they-let-me-sign-drew-brees/ Uhh, ok--give ME a Pro Bowl QB and I could probably get you to .500..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Nothing, I hope. Instead, let the rest of the league cheat against them. Pump in crowd noise, !@#$ with the headsets, give every player a radio channel, steal the Pats footballs and over-inflate them, turn a blind eye to roughing calls. Hell, let wide receivers pepper spray the defensive backs for all I care, because !@#$ these guys.Pepper spray! Seriously funny schit right there! Lets get midieval on their ass. TASERs anyone? GO BILLS!!! Edited September 9, 2015 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 None that I can think of offhand. That was one of O'Leary's points/argument in his Spygate book--continual success despite a revolving door of no name coordinators who try their luck elsewhere and fail miserably. In one case (McDaniel), trying to cheat elsewhere, failing miserably and coming back "home". ? More info please? And Matt Cassel had his best completion percentage and yards passing in NE...and has been pretty much mediocre since (one season with KC aside). He's someone who made a great deal of money off the Pats' cheating. So when Cassel was good again in 2010 under Charlie Weiss as OC, was Weiss cheating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Pepper spray! Seriously funny schit right there! Lets get midieval on their ass. TASERs anyone? GO BILLS!!! I can't stop picturing Brady as this kid. http://youtu.be/8XWijwmvGU4 Edited September 9, 2015 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 What I want to know is WHAT will the NFL DO to STOP THEM FROM CONTINUING TO CHEAT?? ANYTHING?!!? have the Refs thow a flag at ANY questionable play. You see something slightly wrong - question it. Throw a flag and let the group decide. LOVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) ? More info please? McDaniel was caught filming opposing team's practice walk through a few years back and fined $50k when he was HC of the Broncos. The videographer, Steve Scarnechia, is also a former Pat* assistant and son of longtime Pat* OL coach Dante S. Edited September 9, 2015 by MattM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 ? More info please? Seriously Hopeful, you need to read SpyGate. Do an internet search on broncos video taping scandal and you'll find a lot, like this: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5854856 for example. There's more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 And now, the Pats* are asking the NFL to reinstate needledee & needledum. How convenient? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 don't forget Belichick* was the DC of the Giants in the Bills 1st Super Bowl. He could have been stealing playsheets and cheating way back then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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