EJ as Evaluated by FSU fans - Caution: pretty brutal

[BobbyC81]

 

Is this a serious question?

 

 

Name a quality NFL QB from Cal prior to Aaron Rodgers.

 

Sorry, but that's a silly argument...take players on a case-by-case basis.

Steve Bartkowski, Craig Morton, Joe Kapp Edited August 12, 2015 by LittleJoeCartwright

[thebandit27]

Steve Bartkowski, Craig Morton

 

The point is clear: two guys from 25 years ago aren't a predictor of QB success.

 

Take each player on a case-by-case basis.

[hondo in seattle]

 

 

look at the scouting report. Brady played for Michigan. EJ had a simplified playbook on a College Championship quality team

 

I'll say it again. YOU WILL SEE FOR YOURSELF. I already have. You can't teach EJ the skills he was not born with. I mean for god sake his scouting report says "Area Code Accuracy". EJ was born with size arm strength intelligence and has a charismatic personality. Accuracy ability to progress through reads fast and see the field unfortunately is not in his make up

 

All me an you can do is sit back and watch the tale unfold on its own. I do not believe he can suddenly develop the skills we are all looking for. If he does I will be pleasantly surprised, but as of now I have 0 faith he will suddenly "get It"

 

 

The personnel executive in Green Bay that Tyler Dunne talks to isn't sure if Manuel will ever develop into a good NFL QB. Apparently, Whaley and Ryan aren't sure yet either. So while professional talent evaluators aren't certain yet, you know with absolute certainty. Ridiculous.

 

Most QBs who get drafted never do develop into good starting QBs. So you may be right because the odds are on your side, not because you have some special talent at evaluating what QB traits can and can't be taught.

 

Maybe because I'm old, I've witnessed several QBs who were supposedly not cut out for the NFL eventually blossom. Plunkett, Brees, Deberg - all sorts of QBs - failed to demonstrate NFL caliber skill sets their first years(s) in the league. They struggled with everything imaginable - timing, accuracy, mechanics, reading defenses, progressions - so much so that fans and teams gave up on them. And then they learned and then they blossomed.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

The personnel executive in Green Bay that Tyler Dunne talks to isn't sure if Manuel will ever develop into a good NFL QB. Apparently, Whaley and Ryan aren't sure yet either. So while professional talent evaluators aren't certain yet, you know with absolute certainty. Ridiculous.

 

Most QBs who get drafted never do develop into good starting QBs. So you may be right because the odds are on your side, not because you have some special talent at evaluating what QB traits can and can't be taught.

 

Maybe because I'm old, I've witnessed several QBs who were supposedly not cut out for the NFL eventually blossom. Plunkett, Brees, Deberg - all sorts of QBs - failed to demonstrate NFL caliber skill sets their first years(s) in the league. They struggled with everything imaginable - timing, accuracy, mechanics, reading defenses, progressions - so much so that fans and teams gave up on them. And then they learned and then they blossomed.

Get real! Players are incapable of improvement!

[ko12010]

 

 

look at the scouting report. Brady played for Michigan. EJ had a simplified playbook on a College Championship quality team

 

I'll say it again. YOU WILL SEE FOR YOURSELF. I already have. You can't teach EJ the skills he was not born with. I mean for god sake his scouting report says "Area Code Accuracy". EJ was born with size arm strength intelligence and has a charismatic personality. Accuracy ability to progress through reads fast and see the field unfortunately is not in his make up

 

All me an you can do is sit back and watch the tale unfold on its own. I do not believe he can suddenly develop the skills we are all looking for. If he does I will be pleasantly surprised, but as of now I have 0 faith he will suddenly "get It"

Claiming that being able to read defenses in the NFL and/or throwing a ball accurately is something you're born with, as if it's something coded into human DNA, it seriously the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Athleticism is genetic, but even that can be improved through learning and training. Every trait you're describing is a learned ability.

[metzelaars_lives]

Here we go again I guess...

 

Major points in this thread:

 

EJ hangs his receivers out to dry. Peyton hung Emmanuel Sanders out to dry against the Rams. Seriously take a look at the play he gets destroyed. It happened against the Bills too and the Bills got a ridiculous penalty.

 

EJ should have been drafted in the 3rd or 4th. Mike Mayock had him a late first rounder.

 

EJ has terrible accuracy. Do you know that EJ had a better completion % as a rookie than Dan Marino? Too old school for you? How about a better comp% than Matt Stafford in 3 of his first 5 seasons. Too many injuries for you? How about a better comp % than Ryan Tannehill who many seem to love all of a sudden. How about a better comp % than the first 4 seasons of Eli Manning's career?

 

EJ will never be good. Eli Manning was terrible for the first 4 years of his career. 64 ints in the first 4 years bad. Drew Brees was so bad after 3 years the Chargers had the #1 pick and drafted Phillip Rivers. He threw 29 tds to 31 ints.

 

 

 

So what is the point to posting all of this? We all and I mean ALL have no idea what will happen with EJ. Here is what we do know. By all accounts he is a great guy and teammate. He was drafted to be the qb of the future. He works extremely hard on improving. He plays for our favorite team. Why in the world do people need to trash him? Why do people need to proclaim he won't be good?

Why are we not allowed to predict he won't be good? My guess is that if the Bills drafted, say, a guard in the first round in 2013 and he had shown as little progress as Manuel has so far, you wouldn't be as defensive. I'm sure you could go back and find plenty of guards who didn't hit their stride until several years in the league. I read everything you wrote and I respect your opinion but I disagree with this notion that 'how could we possibly have any idea if he's gonna be good or not.' It doesn't appear that it's happening for him right now. I think you could see how someone might arrive at that conclusion.

Edited August 12, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[BillsVet]

 

Be careful...I made that point two pages ago and was told that no, in fact, in 2013 we should've retroactively drafted a QB from either 2011 or 2012.

 

I find it ironic that Jim Kelly is your avatar. Buffalo didn't take a QB to replace him until Todd Collins in '95. But under your rationale, it wasn't Butler's fault he waited until the draft before Kelly's penultimate season to find a successor. It was just that Buffalo's options when they decided to take a QB weren't very good and therefore, the GM/team cannot be blamed.

 

You can believe what you want. I simply disagree with the notion you wait until you have bad or no options remaining to draft a QB.

[Big Gun]

Why are we not allowed to predict he won't be good? My guess is that if the Bills drafted, say, a guard in the first round in 2013 and he had shown as little progress as Manuel has so far, you wouldn't be as defensive. I'm sure you could go back and find plenty of guards who didn't hit their stride until several years in the league. I read everything you wrote and I respect your opinion but I disagree with this notion that 'how could we possibly have any idea if he's gonna be good or not.' It doesn't appear that it's happening for him right now. I think you could see how someone might arrive at that conclusion.

+1

 

How quick did it take for fans to figure out Aaron Maybin stunk or didn't have it? The excuses being created for EJ are mindboggling

[section122]

He gets crap because he's not good. That's been how sporting events have worked since they were invented.

 

Would you sign EJ to another contract?

LeBatard was doing a segment on the most embarrassing Jets thing to happen yesterday. One of the things they mentioned was audio from fans at halftime of the butt fumble game. They were absolutely ruthless to the point of absurdity. All I could think of were people who part of the fun is yelling and trashing people that are a million more times talented than them. Somehow because people are fans of a team it gives them license to just lose their minds and their civility.

 

I have pointed out many stats that show EJ isn't nearly as terrible as some want to make him. He didn't come in the league and light it up, very few qbs do. Even the 3 qbs that came in and lit the league up took time. Luck still struggles against good teams and on the road, Russel Wilson won a playoff game passing for barely 100 yards, and RG3 has fallen off a cliff. Stop holding EJ accountable for the last 15 years. Be patient with the player who was labeled a project.

 

 

 

If you can't see the forest between the trees then not much any of us can say. Name the last QB that was wildly inconsistent inaccurate and unable to do full progressions that all of sudden mastered them? Sure QB's struggle but they demonstrate those traits way more than EJ has to date

 

I've pulled for the guy, but I am saying it again, he'll never be a consistent starting QB he will at best be a good backup in this league, his inaccruacy miss timing and inability to see the full field are not correctable. You can not teach those traits, you can hone those skills but you can't implant them all of sudden

 

I suspect EJ will have a couple great practices but will have equally bad practices for the rest of camp. He may put together a decent preseason game or 2 but will also make us scream in agony

You quoted my post and apparently did read it. I listed several qbs who EJ has at the same point in their career been better. In case you need more examples though I will offer up Rich Gannon who didn't have the light go on until late in his career, or Kurt Warner who was bagging groceries, or Jonny Unitas who was cut from the Steelers.

 

Also accuracy does improve with experience. I can't stand people thinking otherwise. So many qbs improve their accuracy and completion percentage throughout their career. Take a look at some qb stats and you will see it to be true. Seeing the whole field also comes with experience. Sheesh have you ever watched a young qb develop?!?!?!

[Dr. Who]

Why are we not allowed to predict he won't be good? My guess is that if the Bills drafted, say, a guard in the first round in 2013 and he had shown as little progress as Manuel has so far, you wouldn't be as defensive. I'm sure you could go back and find plenty of guards who didn't hit their stride until several years in the league. I read everything you wrote and I respect your opinion but I disagree with this notion that 'how could we possibly have any idea if he's gonna be good or not.' It doesn't appear that it's happening for him right now. I think you could see how someone might arrive at that conclusion.

That's fine; it's reasonable. I think the irritation is that there's a difference between predicting and stating a "prediction" as if it were a dead certainty.

A lot of people who pronounce on EJ "predict" in the latter fashion, generally heaping scorn on Manuel and

also on those who continue to hold out hope for his development.

[Big Gun]

 

Being able to read a D can't be taught? He can't improve at it with experience? Yeah, I respectfully disagree.

 

Reading a D is not in your DNA, it might come easier to some guys than others but that doesn't mean he can't learn to do it and do it at a high level. Accuracy is directly connected to comfort and footwork - both of which can be gained with experience.

 

And it's not a matter of "I'll see." Odds are most QBs don't pan out it doesn't make you a soothsayer to say, "this guy won't be good" as that's generally what happens. I'm not even claiming EJ will be good, I'm just saying give the kid a chance and if he fails then so be it. Not sure why there's so much vitriol towards him.

I agree with this but just fixing footwork isn't the be all end all for EJ.

[section122]

Why are we not allowed to predict he won't be good? My guess is that if the Bills drafted, say, a guard in the first round in 2013 and he had shown as little progress as Manuel has so far, you wouldn't be as defensive. I'm sure you could go back and find plenty of guards who didn't hit their stride until several years in the league. I read everything you wrote and I respect your opinion but I disagree with this notion that 'how could we possibly have any idea if he's gonna be good or not.' It doesn't appear that it's happening for him right now. I think you could see how someone might arrive at that conclusion.

I have no problem with predicting he won't be good. It is the absolute posters that drive me crazy. We could all say every single qb drafted won't amount to a hill of beans and be right 80-90% of the time but to what end? The options on this team are Cassel, TT, and EJ. I am hoping either EJ or TT shows better than Cassel. I want zero parts of Cassel starting because his book has been written. He has proven to be every bit of terrible that posters are PROJECTING EJ to be. Why not wait to find out?

 

I also don't think he has shown little progress. His rookie year stacks up with many good and great qbs.

 

I'm not defensive to EJ. I am defensive of this aura of not rooting for our players. I try to stay away from we when talking about this team because I am not part of it but the Bills are part of me. I root for every single player to do and be their best. I don't need to be early to the he sucks bandwagon.

[thebandit27]

 

I find it ironic that Jim Kelly is your avatar. Buffalo didn't take a QB to replace him until Todd Collins in '95. But under your rationale, it wasn't Butler's fault he waited until the draft before Kelly's penultimate season to find a successor. It was just that Buffalo's options when they decided to take a QB weren't very good and therefore, the GM/team cannot be blamed.

 

You can believe what you want. I simply disagree with the notion you wait until you have bad or no options remaining to draft a QB.

 

You need to change your name to "Strawman", as I've never seen anyone so intent on arguing points that I've never made.

 

My very first comment in this thread addressed that the team hadn't drafted a QB in nearly a decade, yet here you are arguing that I don't believe in drafting QBs. How anyone can be so absent-minded in such a clear discussion is astonishing.

 

My point, since you somehow are missing it (I no longer believe it's intentional, you've now convinced me that you simply do not understand or refuse to read), is this: in 2013, the team had no prospective QB of the future, and therefore needed to attempt to bring one in via the draft. They did so by (a) trading back to gain more picks, and (b) picking the guy that they felt had the best chance to become a franchise QB. I then further explained that I didn't understand why anyone had any confusion about this pick at the time that it was made and moving forward from that point.

 

I have said, on many, many occasions, that the team erred in not picking certain QBs in 2011 (Dalton, Kaepernick) and 2012 (Wilson, Foles). That changes nothing with regard to the 2013 draft for many reasons:

 

1. Nix was the GM in 2011 and 2012. Actually, he was still the GM in 2013, but because he had one foot out the door, Whaley was far more involved in the process. You want to criticize Whaley for not picking a QB in 2011 and 2012, while simultaneously ripping him for picking one in 2013, a mindset that makes less than zero sense.

2. The team cannot retroactively draft players. In May of 2013, they can only use draft picks on players in the 2013 draft, since the 2011 and 2012 drafts are over. That's why they picked EJ in 2013 instead of using their 2013 draft picks to pluck Russ Wilson or Nick Foles off of someone else's roster. This shouldn't need to be explained.

 

Could Whaley have picked another QB in 2013? Sure, he could have. Tell me who would've been a good option and I'll listen.

 

Could he have taken a QB in 2014? Sure...not a single one of those guys looked great at the time, and only Bridgewater has shown any signs of life. Could they have moved up to get him from the 41st pick? Sure. I'll bet they could've given up a similar package to Minnesota...of course, that would've left them with only one other draft pick that year, and how great would that be to spend an entire draft, plus the following year's 1st and 4th round picks, on 2 players, one of whom is a QB, the year after picking a QB in the 1st round? Find me one GM that would've made that move.

 

Lastly, the 2015 draft. Again, since you cannot retroactively draft players, Whaley has to operate moving forward. They weren't in position to get Mariota or Winston, and obviously didn't like any of the 3rd/4th round guys, so they opted instead to bring in Cassel and Taylor. You may not like those guys, but that's a proactive move aimed at trying to get better.

 

I firmly believe they'll continue to try to get better at the position, just as they've done every offseason since 2013. The fact that you didn't like the plan doesn't mean there wasn't one.

[Dr. Who]

LeBatard was doing a segment on the most embarrassing Jets thing to happen yesterday. One of the things they mentioned was audio from fans at halftime of the butt fumble game. They were absolutely ruthless to the point of absurdity. All I could think of were people who part of the fun is yelling and trashing people that are a million more times talented than them. Somehow because people are fans of a team it gives them license to just lose their minds and their civility.

 

I have pointed out many stats that show EJ isn't nearly as terrible as some want to make him. He didn't come in the league and light it up, very few qbs do. Even the 3 qbs that came in and lit the league up took time. Luck still struggles against good teams and on the road, Russel Wilson won a playoff game passing for barely 100 yards, and RG3 has fallen off a cliff. Stop holding EJ accountable for the last 15 years. Be patient with the player who was labeled a project.

 

You quoted my post and apparently did read it. I listed several qbs who EJ has at the same point in their career been better. In case you need more examples though I will offer up Rich Gannon who didn't have the light go on until late in his career, or Kurt Warner who was bagging groceries, or Jonny Unitas who was cut from the Steelers.

 

Also accuracy does improve with experience. I can't stand people thinking otherwise. So many qbs improve their accuracy and completion percentage throughout their career. Take a look at some qb stats and you will see it to be true. Seeing the whole field also comes with experience. Sheesh have you ever watched a young qb develop?!?!?!

Immaturity, impatience and incivility on a message board?

[Utah John]

I don't know whether EJ has the potential to develop into a good starting QB. I assume the Bills brass thought he did when he was drafted, but all teams have swings and misses on draft day, so maybe they were wrong.

 

There has been a reasonable point of view that EJ got screwed up by the previous coaching regime. There was an article on TBD a couple weeks ago about how a rookie HC killed a young QB by bad play calling. Maybe that's right and maybe it isn't. I know EJ looked god-awful last year in the Houston game, and Marrone was forced to bench him or lose the support of the team. The other guys looked around and said that was a game they should have won but for EJ's screw-ups. (Also, I realize JJ Watt is an incredible athlete, but EJ is supposed to be one too, so why couldn't EJ run down JJ after that interception? But I digress.)

 

However that reasonable point of view holds less water this year. The Bills finally have competent coaches and they don't seem able to bring EJ's production up. EJ seems to be locking himself into the 3rd string job, which probably means no job at all given his salary.

 

Maybe, given time to develop, EJ's accuracy and field awareness will improve. But, the Bills are built to win this year. A lot of players are in their prime, and there are only a few young guys who are expected to develop over the next 2-3 years. I don't think the Bills are inclined to let EJ do OJT while Dareus watches and decides whether to re-sign here, for example.

 

The biggest mistake was going into the draft the year they picked EJ, determined to take a QB. For whatever reason, there weren't good options available. Nix's final act was a loser.

[thebandit27]

I don't know whether EJ has the potential to develop into a good starting QB. I assume the Bills brass thought he did when he was drafted, but all teams have swings and misses on draft day, so maybe they were wrong.

 

There has been a reasonable point of view that EJ got screwed up by the previous coaching regime. There was an article on TBD a couple weeks ago about how a rookie HC killed a young QB by bad play calling. Maybe that's right and maybe it isn't. I know EJ looked god-awful last year in the Houston game, and Marrone was forced to bench him or lose the support of the team. The other guys looked around and said that was a game they should have won but for EJ's screw-ups. (Also, I realize JJ Watt is an incredible athlete, but EJ is supposed to be one too, so why couldn't EJ run down JJ after that interception? But I digress.)

 

However that reasonable point of view holds less water this year. The Bills finally have competent coaches and they don't seem able to bring EJ's production up. EJ seems to be locking himself into the 3rd string job, which probably means no job at all given his salary.

 

Maybe, given time to develop, EJ's accuracy and field awareness will improve. But, the Bills are built to win this year. A lot of players are in their prime, and there are only a few young guys who are expected to develop over the next 2-3 years. I don't think the Bills are inclined to let EJ do OJT while Dareus watches and decides whether to re-sign here, for example.

 

The biggest mistake was going into the draft the year they picked EJ, determined to take a QB. For whatever reason, there weren't good options available. Nix's final act was a loser.

 

In general, I agree with most of this...there are two items I think differently on:

 

1) They are unlikely to cut EJ, as they'd have to take a $2.5M+ cap hit to do so...they're way more likely to keep him as a backup or trade him for a box of footballs than to cut him IMO

 

2) I think that, by the time 2013 rolled around, they had to make some kind of move at the QB position to get a young guy in the fold. Sure, it wasn't a great year to do it, but you can't have zero plan for the future.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

From a college board - all teams - in general very critically thinking fans:

 

1. Bills saw a 6'5 guy with great character, personality, and work ethic and failed to notice he was not a QB worth drafting anywhere near that high. EJ is a great guy and played for my team but I said at the time he was a guaranteed bust, was shocked any professionals could watch his tape and see a 1st rd pick. His biggest problems weren't really ones you can dramatically improve. Yoy either have good timing, anticipation, and feel for the gane or you don't. A QB with horrible anticipation, timing, and ability to read a defense in college is not someone you draft on day 1. EJ would wait until a WR made his break and was open and stationary before he would throw it. The very first game Jameis played it was night and day, Jameis anticipated and threw before guys even broke. WRs didn't have to wait on the ball because of an EJ floater or late throw. Not everyone is Winston, but EJ had god awful timing and anticipation. Jameis could also read a defense, see the field, and knew where his WRs were supposed to be 10 times better in game 1/as a FR than EJ as a Sr. I don't think EJ always knew where everyone was supposed to be which is why he had to wait until they were there to throw it. Jameis knew where people were supposed to be so he was anle to anticipate better. EJ is a smart guy but I don't think he was football smart.

 

2. I'm a Nole and will never understand how they saw tape of EJ and thought he was first rd much less a top 15 talent. Dude had horrible timing on his passes, couldn't even read a college defense, threw floaters, constantly spun away 10 yards to turn a 10 yard sack into a 20 yard sack, couldn't go through his progressions, etc x 10.

God damn you hit this **** right on the head. Him getting drafted in the first round will probably go down as one of the biggest WTF moments in the history of the NFL draft. I literally laughed when he was drafted. Look, nice guy, represented our school with class and all that jazz, but he was horrendous. He was absolutely the governor on that 2012 team. Had we started Winston over him, I have no doubt we atleast make the national championship game and probably win it. That 2012 team was just as loaded as 2013.

 

3. EJ could never hit the broad side of a barn! That's why he never played for a NC at FSU. Jameis took the very same roster EJ had and won a Heisman and a NC as a Freshman! I was shocked to see EJ get drafted in the first round after continually over throwing every WR for 4 years.

 

4. Just to reiterate what fellow Noles are saying ITT, I was floored when EJ was taken 15th overall. All those guys with alleged great FB minds looked at the tape of his career and thought he was the answer. It fvcking amazes me that multiple people signed off on that pick. What a disaster. Just a great kid that has slow eyes and no killer instinct. How does that happen?

 

i did not cherry pick a thread on our QB situation. There's much more here: http://forums.rivals.com/threads/holy-****-ej-manuel-is-a-waste-of-space.185328/#post-4622295

 

You will never see VT fans talk this way about Tyrod.

 

In fairness, FSU fans are spoiled by 5-star talent and feel entitled to win more than most fan bases - not necessarily a bad thing - just is.

 

 

...but but...he is "big and strong" with "large hands"

[section122]

I don't know whether EJ has the potential to develop into a good starting QB. I assume the Bills brass thought he did when he was drafted, but all teams have swings and misses on draft day, so maybe they were wrong.

 

There has been a reasonable point of view that EJ got screwed up by the previous coaching regime. There was an article on TBD a couple weeks ago about how a rookie HC killed a young QB by bad play calling. Maybe that's right and maybe it isn't. I know EJ looked god-awful last year in the Houston game, and Marrone was forced to bench him or lose the support of the team. The other guys looked around and said that was a game they should have won but for EJ's screw-ups. (Also, I realize JJ Watt is an incredible athlete, but EJ is supposed to be one too, so why couldn't EJ run down JJ after that interception? But I digress.)

 

However that reasonable point of view holds less water this year. The Bills finally have competent coaches and they don't seem able to bring EJ's production up. EJ seems to be locking himself into the 3rd string job, which probably means no job at all given his salary.

 

Maybe, given time to develop, EJ's accuracy and field awareness will improve. But, the Bills are built to win this year. A lot of players are in their prime, and there are only a few young guys who are expected to develop over the next 2-3 years. I don't think the Bills are inclined to let EJ do OJT while Dareus watches and decides whether to re-sign here, for example.

 

The biggest mistake was going into the draft the year they picked EJ, determined to take a QB. For whatever reason, there weren't good options available. Nix's final act was a loser.

Very good and reasonable post. I do disagree a bit though

 

As to the bolded section this is the conundrum. Matt Cassel has proven to be bad add in the fact that he is old and he certainly isn't going to sway a player like Dareus. I want TT or EJ to start for one simple reason. They both provide hope. We can all hope that they will improve and heck they might actually do it. Cassel will not be improving at 11 years in. I know Cassel is bad. I don't know that about TT or EJ yet. I liked what I saw from EJ during his rookie year. The game against the Pats*, Panrthers, Browns, and Falcons all gave me hope he could do well in this league. Last year the team was 2-2 when he got pulled. Both losses were against good teams. Houston had a fantastic d last year including an mvp type player. I'm still holding out hope for him. If it can't be him I want it to be TT.

[metzelaars_lives]

I have no problem with predicting he won't be good. It is the absolute posters that drive me crazy. We could all say every single qb drafted won't amount to a hill of beans and be right 80-90% of the time but to what end? The options on this team are Cassel, TT, and EJ. I am hoping either EJ or TT shows better than Cassel. I want zero parts of Cassel starting because his book has been written. He has proven to be every bit of terrible that posters are PROJECTING EJ to be. Why not wait to find out?

 

I also don't think he has shown little progress. His rookie year stacks up with many good and great qbs.

 

I'm not defensive to EJ. I am defensive of this aura of not rooting for our players. I try to stay away from we when talking about this team because I am not part of it but the Bills are part of me. I root for every single player to do and be their best. I don't need to be early to the he sucks bandwagon.

And that's where I'd disagree with you. I am not buying a Cassel jersey anytime soon but at his best, he has been much better in this league than EJ has been this far and certainly better than he looks right now. I am fully aware that Cassel comes with a ceiling and EJ may not. That being said, as of now, Cassel's "book," however underwhelming it may appear to you, looks to be better than EJ's book. This is a classic case of bird in the hand.

 

And dude, how in the world can you not see his lack of progress? Since his rookie year, which was serviceable (not one EJ critic has ever mentioned his rookie year), he has regressed at a startling rate. That's just the way it is. If you run into me at Bills-Colts, which I'm flying across the country to attend, and we're talking in the parking lot and you asked me about EJ (if he's still on the team) and I was like, "I don't know man, it doesn't look like it's happening for him" (which is all I've ever said) would you accuse me of not being a fan or not rooting for my players? Like another poster said, when everyone was critical of Maybin, were his few defenders (assuming there must've been a couple) calling out his critics' fanhood?

[section122]

And that's where I'd disagree with you. I am not buying a Cassel jersey anytime soon but at his best, he has been much better in this league than EJ has been this far and certainly better than he looks right now. I am fully aware that Cassel comes with a ceiling and EJ may not. That being said, as of now, Cassel's "book," however underwhelming it may appear to you, looks to be better than EJ's book. This is a classic case of bird in the hand.

 

And dude, how in the world can you not see his lack of progress? Since his rookie year, which was serviceable (not one EJ critic has ever mentioned his rookie year), he has regressed at a startling rate. That's just the way it is. If you run into me at Bills-Colts, which I'm flying across the country to attend, and we're talking in the parking lot and you asked me about EJ (if he's still on the team) and I was like, "I don't know man, it doesn't look like it's happening for him" (which is all I've ever said) would you accuse me of not being a fan or not rooting for my players? Like another poster said, when everyone was critical of Maybin, were his few defenders (assuming there must've been a couple) calling out his critics' fanhood?

I have no issue with the bolded. I have no issue with any of your posts really. (you weren't on the darick bandwagon were you? I always get you and Kirby mixed up lol). The passionate he sucks, he will never be good, posts just get my goat.

 

Cassel to me is dead bird in the hand lol. His best year was qbing one of the best offenses of all time. His second best year was mediocre other than the 27:7 tds to ints. The rest of his career is bad. To me he is a byproduct of Brady's injury and the aura of Belicheck drafted him he must be decent. If he didn't get to quarterback that Pats* team how long do you think a 7th round pick that didn't play in college would have lasted in the league? Point being he got a chance which I don't feel EJ has gotten and certainly TT hasn't (no shame being stuck behind Flacco).

 

His second best year he completed 60.2% of his passes. Do you realize that he only has 2 years of completing more than 60% in his career? Or just 2 years of more than 3000 yards? Or that he averages 174.7 ypg for his career? None of this says to me he is any good. Chiefs fans have an active dislike of the guy, Vikings fans were relieved to be done with guy. As I stated in another post he is worse over his career than Orton. Sure he is veteran but what does that seriously mean? That he hung around the league? So did Todd Collins, so did many other mediocre guys.

[FireChan]

I have no issue with the bolded. I have no issue with any of your posts really. (you weren't on the darick bandwagon were you? I always get you and Kirby mixed up lol). The passionate he sucks, he will never be good, posts just get my goat.

 

Cassel to me is dead bird in the hand lol. His best year was qbing one of the best offenses of all time. His second best year was mediocre other than the 27:7 tds to ints. The rest of his career is bad. To me he is a byproduct of Brady's injury and the aura of Belicheck drafted him he must be decent. If he didn't get to quarterback that Pats* team how long do you think a 7th round pick that didn't play in college would have lasted in the league? Point being he got a chance which I don't feel EJ has gotten and certainly TT hasn't (no shame being stuck behind Flacco).

 

His second best year he completed 60.2% of his passes. Do you realize that he only has 2 years of completing more than 60% in his career? Or just 2 years of more than 3000 yards? Or that he averages 174.7 ypg for his career? None of this says to me he is any good. Chiefs fans have an active dislike of the guy, Vikings fans were relieved to be done with guy. As I stated in another post he is worse over his career than Orton. Sure he is veteran but what does that seriously mean? That he hung around the league? So did Todd Collins, so did many other mediocre guys.

He does suck though. Right now, he's bad.

[BillsVet]

 

You need to change your name to "Strawman", as I've never seen anyone so intent on arguing points that I've never made.

 

My very first comment in this thread addressed that the team hadn't drafted a QB in nearly a decade, yet here you are arguing that I don't believe in drafting QBs. How anyone can be so absent-minded in such a clear discussion is astonishing.

 

My point, since you somehow are missing it (I no longer believe it's intentional, you've now convinced me that you simply do not understand or refuse to read), is this: in 2013, the team had no prospective QB of the future, and therefore needed to attempt to bring one in via the draft. They did so by (a) trading back to gain more picks, and (b) picking the guy that they felt had the best chance to become a franchise QB. I then further explained that I didn't understand why anyone had any confusion about this pick at the time that it was made and moving forward from that point.

 

I have said, on many, many occasions, that the team erred in not picking certain QBs in 2011 (Dalton, Kaepernick) and 2012 (Wilson, Foles). That changes nothing with regard to the 2013 draft for many reasons:

 

1. Nix was the GM in 2011 and 2012. Actually, he was still the GM in 2013, but because he had one foot out the door, Whaley was far more involved in the process. You want to criticize Whaley for not picking a QB in 2011 and 2012, while simultaneously ripping him for picking one in 2013, a mindset that makes less than zero sense.

2. The team cannot retroactively draft players. In May of 2013, they can only use draft picks on players in the 2013 draft, since the 2011 and 2012 drafts are over. That's why they picked EJ in 2013 instead of using their 2013 draft picks to pluck Russ Wilson or Nick Foles off of someone else's roster. This shouldn't need to be explained.

 

Could Whaley have picked another QB in 2013? Sure, he could have. Tell me who would've been a good option and I'll listen.

 

Could he have taken a QB in 2014? Sure...not a single one of those guys looked great at the time, and only Bridgewater has shown any signs of life. Could they have moved up to get him from the 41st pick? Sure. I'll bet they could've given up a similar package to Minnesota...of course, that would've left them with only one other draft pick that year, and how great would that be to spend an entire draft, plus the following year's 1st and 4th round picks, on 2 players, one of whom is a QB, the year after picking a QB in the 1st round? Find me one GM that would've made that move.

 

Lastly, the 2015 draft. Again, since you cannot retroactively draft players, Whaley has to operate moving forward. They weren't in position to get Mariota or Winston, and obviously didn't like any of the 3rd/4th round guys, so they opted instead to bring in Cassel and Taylor. You may not like those guys, but that's a proactive move aimed at trying to get better.

 

I firmly believe they'll continue to try to get better at the position, just as they've done every offseason since 2013. The fact that you didn't like the plan doesn't mean there wasn't one.

 

My point remains that the "strategy" of not taking a QB until they had no long term option (i.e. post Fitz) is why they're in this QB predicament today. You've said that they did what they had to do when on draft day 2013. I choose to look at it deeper, which is to say, why they were in the place they were at in 2013 at all.

 

You don't get a lot of shots at good QB prospects and choosing to eschew the position entirely at the outset of a rebuild isn't what I'd call a good professional strategy. It's actually the prime reason they're 0 for 5 in playoff appearances since Nix took over.

[Fixxxer]

I have no issue with the bolded. I have no issue with any of your posts really. (you weren't on the darick bandwagon were you? I always get you and Kirby mixed up lol). The passionate he sucks, he will never be good, posts just get my goat.

 

Cassel to me is dead bird in the hand lol. His best year was qbing one of the best offenses of all time. His second best year was mediocre other than the 27:7 tds to ints. The rest of his career is bad. To me he is a byproduct of Brady's injury and the aura of Belicheck drafted him he must be decent. If he didn't get to quarterback that Pats* team how long do you think a 7th round pick that didn't play in college would have lasted in the league? Point being he got a chance which I don't feel EJ has gotten and certainly TT hasn't (no shame being stuck behind Flacco).

 

His second best year he completed 60.2% of his passes. Do you realize that he only has 2 years of completing more than 60% in his career? Or just 2 years of more than 3000 yards? Or that he averages 174.7 ypg for his career? None of this says to me he is any good. Chiefs fans have an active dislike of the guy, Vikings fans were relieved to be done with guy. As I stated in another post he is worse over his career than Orton. Sure he is veteran but what does that seriously mean? That he hung around the league? So did Todd Collins, so did many other mediocre guys.

 

I agree, here are some interesting numbers.

 

In 10 years in the league, Cassel helped his teams win in 33 games out of 71 with an avg. of 0.464. with 95 TDs scored (combined) and with 105 turnovers (70 ints & 35 fumbles lost) We can all agree that both the Patriots and Chiefs were good, solid teams.

 

In two years, EJ Manuel helped his team win in 6 out 14 games, that is a 0.428 avg. with 19 TDs scored (combined) and 16 turnovers (12 ints & 4 fumbles lost)

 

 

I don't really see how he can be deemed the realiable starter, the safe bet as they say, when there's 10 year data that concludes that he is less than average as a starting NFL QB.

 

The good news regarding Cassel (and all QBs actually) is that he has shown improvements the last couple of practices, lets hopè he can continue this upward trend, I will support him fully is he's named the starter.

[Bangarang]

If your best trait as a QB is your size then it doesn't make a good recipe for success. What can people say EJ is good at? Not something that he has shown the occasional flash in but actually have seen enough consistently to know he is good at any particular thing?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bangarang

[Fadingpain]

If your best trait as a QB is your size then it doesn't make a good recipe for success. What can people say EJ is good at? Not something that he has shown the occasional flash in but actually have seen enough consistently to know he is good at any particular thing?

He's outstanding at moving his eyes slowly.

 

[thebandit27]

 

My point remains that the "strategy" of not taking a QB until they had no long term option (i.e. post Fitz) is why they're in this QB predicament today. You've said that they did what they had to do when on draft day 2013. I choose to look at it deeper, which is to say, why they were in the place they were at in 2013 at all.

 

You don't get a lot of shots at good QB prospects and choosing to eschew the position entirely at the outset of a rebuild isn't what I'd call a good professional strategy. It's actually the prime reason they're 0 for 5 in playoff appearances since Nix took over.

I don't know any other way to say this: no kidding.

 

We know why they were in that position in 2013. What I have said to you repeatedly is that that's not Whaley's doing, yet you continue to criticize the current regime for the previous regime's mistakes.

 

If your point in the QB discussion is always going to be that they didn't draft one in 2011 and 2012, then allow me to reassure you: we all know that.

 

I have no idea why you felt compelled to hash that out in painstaking fashion in response to my comment about not understand what others don't understand about why they picked EJ. And for future reference, please assume that I know the team's drafting history in these discussions.

[BobbyC81]

 

As to the bolded section this is the conundrum. Matt Cassel has proven to be bad add in the fact that he is old and he certainly isn't going to sway a player like Dareus. I want TT or EJ to start foall hope that they will improve and heck they might actually do it. Cassel will not be improving at 11 years in. I know Cassel is bad. .

I wouldn't say Cassel is bad. Average? Mediocre? Yes. I think they can win with him.

[metzelaars_lives]

After tonight's practice, John Murphy, the biggest EJ advocate of them all, just said, "I don't know, it just seems like the other two guys are getting better and progressing and EJ is just not progressing." Guys, the writing is pretty much on the wall at this point, is it not?

[harv shitz]

Just another thoughtless, uninformed, wasted pick by Buddy Nix. He had zero business making draft picks, as he was totally out of touch with the modern game.

 

Let's just all hope that with the change in ownership, we won't have to deal with coaches and GM's that shouldn't even be in the league, never mind having the power to make personnel decisions.

 

E.J. won't even be on the roster after the final cut, I'm certain of it.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harv shitz

[Bangarang]

Just another thoughtless, uninformed, wasted pick by Buddy Nix. He had zero business making draft picks, as he was totally out of touch with the modern game.

 

Let's just all hope that with the change in ownership, we won't have to deal with coaches and GM's that shouldn't even be in the league, never mind having the power to make personnel decisions.

 

E.J. won't even be on the roster after the final cut, I'm certain of it.

The very core of our team was drafted and signed by Nix..

[Solomon Grundy]

After tonight's practice, John Murphy, the biggest EJ advocate of them all, just said, "I don't know, it just seems like the other two guys are getting better and progressing and EJ is just not progressing." Guys, the writing is pretty much on the wall at this point, is it not?

This was disheartening!!

[Formerly Allan in MD]

If James Winson is so god like at QB....then why does he throw so many interceptions?

There's no comparison between Winston and EJ as a football player, and especially a quarterback. I'll take Winston in a second, including his interceptions, as a prospective pro bowler.

[thewildrabbit]

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

[thebandit27]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

 

 

 

[Gordio]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

 

 

 

I hear this arguement all the time & just don't buy it. Case in point none of these guys we had at QB ever went on to do something good after they left Buffalo. You honestly think that if Gailey had Manning or Brees at QB he would not still be coaching the Bills today? One poster said it best. EJ is an athlete trying to play QB. He does not have the makeup to be a good QB. With that being said, I would be willing to roll the dice with EJ or Taylor. At least there maybe some upside. Cassell you pretty much know what you are getting and it isn't pretty.

[ko12010]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

No question in my mind that the morons coaching the Bills over the last 15 season were more useless then any QB they could have drafted or obtained in free agency. Fitz could get the ball out usually in under 2 seconds and he was still hit way more then he should have been!

 

 

Now that the Bills finally have a decent HC, OC, O line coach, along with some top players things could be drastically different for any rookie / young QB. Although I'm not so sure about the QB coach looking back at how Geno Smith performed last season, and what the guy did with Fitz when he was here before. I'm also not to keen on the starting right side of that line with a rookie at RG, and a still developing RT.

 

Cassel could be the right guy to manage the offense and not make mistakes in turning the ball over, and a lot will depend on how well that line blocks for the statuesque QB. We will see on Friday.

I have no faith in TT in that he will become anything other then a turnover machine. JMO

 

 

EJ being on Doug Maroon's staff, and he was being tutored by a moron who didn't know how to do his own job much less help a first year QB develop. EJ still needs time to develop properly, and should the Bills have that power run game working like it did in SF then I can see EJ eventually maturing into a decent starter. It makes no sense to me to give up on a QB with only 14 starts when the guy has a winning record when the team actually ran the ball, and the QB wasn't being asked to throw 40+ times a game. JMO

 

 

This is a good point imo, and one that most people don't seem to understand. Generally, you're hoping to have a solid team around a prospective QB when you draft him. We've been bad as a whole for over a decade. It's not like QB was the final piece of the puzzle. Players succeed in the right environment.

[thebandit27]

This is a good point imo, and one that most people don't seem to understand. Generally, you're hoping to have a solid team around a prospective QB when you draft him. We've been bad as a whole for over a decade. It's not like QB was the final piece of the puzzle. Players succeed in the right environment.

 

I agree that the team wasn't necessarily a QB away.

 

However, I challenge you to find one example of a QB that was held back from even moderate success by his OL. Sure, there's examples of guys who had better seasons behind a more solid OL, but it isn't like JP Losman or Trent Edwards were going to become Philip Rivers if given a better OL (which I believe was the point of the post).

[Wayne Cubed]

 

I agree that the team wasn't necessarily a QB away.

 

However, I challenge you to find one example of a QB that was held back from even moderate success by his OL. Sure, there's examples of guys who had better seasons behind a more solid OL, but it isn't like JP Losman or Trent Edwards were going to become Philip Rivers if given a better OL (which I believe was the point of the post).

 

Yea but look at how good Tony Romo was behind a bunch of 1st round picks last year. Oh wait, he was top 10 QB before that.

[Mr. WEO]

 

First off, any QB the team would have drafted the last 15 years would have been beaten to a pulp, and rendered useless after a few years. Case in point JP Losman, Trent Edwards.

 

 

 

 

 

It's stunning to realize someone would believe this or think this way...

[thebandit27]

 

Yea but look at how good Tony Romo was behind a bunch of 1st round picks last year. Oh wait, he was top 10 QB before that.

 

You know, it's funny that you mention Romo, because he's the one guy that I think of when it comes to the idea that the OL merely exposes the QB, not makes or breaks him.

 

In 2006, the Cowboys made the change from Bledsoe to Romo. Bledsoe started 6 games and was sacked 16 times in 169 pass attempts; that's 2.67 sacks per game and an average of 10.56 attempts/sack.

 

Romo comes in and starts 10 games, and all of a sudden, the numbers drop. He's sacked 21 times in 10 starts while attempting 337 passes; that's 1.6 sacks per game and an average of slightly over 16 attempts/sack.

 

Huge, huge difference.