Conflict Between Bills' Front Office and Marrone?

[JPS]

A decent QB makes this whole conversation go away.

 

Whaley has failed miserably at addressing the most important position on the team. They did an exhaustive, no stone unturned, examination and vowed to get a QB. So he turns a 3rd rounder into a 1st rounder and scrambles to cover for his mistake. This faith in EJ cost him a chance at a decent QB next year.

 

I dunno. On the plus side, he's completely fixed the defensive front 7. The negatives- No QB, a questionable offensive line, no TE and Questions at RB. Yet, you know they'll take WRs and CBs next year.

 

I wouldn't be crushed if they brought in a team with a cohesive vision.

[dave mcbride]

Is Marrone wrong to think that the Bills have a better chance to win with Orton? Does anyone who does not populate a Bills board or who is not Doug Whaley think Manuel will be good?

[Snorom]

 

 

 

Agreed. No one can touch Orton's ability to fall to the ground to avoid hits; turn the ball over; and struggle to score a td.

 

 

Actually EJ does a damn good job of being a much worse QB than Orton. That is clear as day. Say what you will but the Bills would be much worse off if EJ kept playing

[26CornerBlitz]

That is what I was working up to and hope others chime in.

 

Early on I seem to remember some conflict in Pittsburgh between Tomlin and the FO. Eventually, it seemed to get on track as the OC and others were weeded out and replaced a few times.

 

I would like to see Whaley stay with the Bills as GM and hire his own coach with no involvement from Russ Brandon.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz

[dave mcbride]

I thought this piece on Whaley was somewhat revealing: http://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2014/11/doug_whaley_discusses_ej_manuel_kyle_orton_and_the_future_of_the_buffalo_bills_q.html

[boyst]

I would like to see Whaley stay with the Bills as GM and hire his own coach with no involvement from Russ Brandon.

I thought Whaley did a lot of hiring wrt Marrone? That it was as much a group pick with group think as it was anything? That all voices leaned toward Marrone after Chip Kelly pulled his crap?

 

I have a bitter taste with Chip Kelly. He attempts to stay at Oregon until his team faces some major sanctions then bolts out of town as soon as they look troubling. Takes the Phili job and has since struggled greatly. They're going to be hurting next year. I really thought Kelly was after the Dallas job, tbh.

[thewildrabbit]

Clearly Marrone knows he is coaching for his job, and he thinks the Bills still have a chance to make the playoffs. Dunno why he would revert back to EJ at this point.

If Whaley survives the off-season and stays as GM I think he fires Marrone.

I almost think they both survive and its Hackett that gets the ax.

 

Clearly tho, Whaley needs some help distinguishing offensive talent.

[GG]

Is Marrone wrong to think that the Bills have a better chance to win with Orton? Does anyone who does not populate a Bills board or who is not Doug Whaley think Manuel will be good?

 

He's absolutely correct in thinking Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

But from an organizational standpoint, if the Bills lose this weekend, you want to see in real game time what EJ learned on the sidelines. You don't want to be hoping/guessing the QB situation this offseason.

[Kelly the Dog]

He's absolutely correct in thinking Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

But from an organizational standpoint, if the Bills lose this weekend, you want to see in real game time what EJ learned on the sidelines. You don't want to be hoping/guessing the QB situation this offseason.

This just occurred to me. Orton has a player option for 5+m. Maybe they have seen enough of him to know he is not THE answer. If they start EJ in the last two games, maybe Orton doesnt take that option. And the team can decide whether or not they want to pay him/play him. He wants to play.

[boyst]

This just occurred to me. Orton has a player option for 5+m. Maybe they have seen enough of him to know he is not THE answer. If they start EJ in the last two games, maybe Orton doesnt take that option. And the team can decide whether or not they want to pay him/play him. He wants to play.

I don't know if I want to go in to a 2015 season without Orton and a wildcard EJ anymore or less then I want to go in to 2015 with Orton and wildcard EJ.

 

Orton is the best horse we can hitch up to at this point and likely next year, as well. Wish we'd have kept Fitz. Bit the bullet and kept him. We'd be better off.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Where is the conflict?

 

The Bills are in playoff race. If they win Sunday they're in great shape to potentially be 9-6 going into season finale.

 

If they are 7-8 and out if it, it would make sense to evaluate EJ further from a FO perspective and he knows that. Yet as the coach, he would like to still give the team the best chance to win and at this point in time he believes Orton is that guy.

 

I don't see the issue with what he said.

 

 

Agreed. I don't know if it's just that football boils down to success in a matter os 16 hours of play time or what, but it seems that people are often looking to create a back story for pretty much anything said or done. We know, since Orton will be starting, that Marrone thinks he offers the best chance for a victory. What more really needs to be said?

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

He's absolutely correct in thinking Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

But from an organizational standpoint, if the Bills lose this weekend, you want to see in real game time what EJ learned on the sidelines. You don't want to be hoping/guessing the QB situation this offseason.

while 1 or 2 more games this year is better than 0 when it comes to evaluation material, I don't know how much less hoping/guessing in the offseason at the QB position there would be as a result.

 

Marrone said he'd reevaluate if they get to 7-8. Would a game v Patriots at Gillette do much for EJ? Fan confidence? FO confidence?

[mrags]

 

 

did you miss the "unless someone else makes me make the change" part of it?

 

if he said "we are in a playoff race and im going to play the guy i think gives us the best shot, end of story" it wouldve been the end of the story. that he tagged on extra is the weird part.

i haven't read this entire thread so I'm sure somebody has commented on this. But if not...

 

The problem with your take is that we can all Monday morning QB this thing. We can all look back at what Marrone said in an interview/press conference. We can all look at things after they were said and try and find what it really meant.

 

Maybe, just maybe, Maronne didn't say something about the potential for still being in the playoff race becaise he assumed everyone already knew that. Maybe he just meant his comment as being what it really is. Right now, Kyle Orton gives us the best chance to win, and until we lose, we won't be changing who plays QB unless someone who makes more money than I do tells me different.

[26CornerBlitz]

Agreed. I don't know if it's just that football boils down to success in a matter os 16 hours of play time or what, but it seems that people are often looking to create a back story for pretty much anything said or done. We know, since Orton will be starting, that Marrone thinks he offers the best chance for a victory. What more really needs to be said?

 

That's the entire point of this thread and the subsequent discussion. He went beyond what was necessary.

[bananathumb]

Pistols at 100 yards for the Dougs.

 

Of course, both would miss.

[thewildrabbit]

Actually EJ does a damn good job of being a much worse QB than Orton. That is clear as day. Say what you will but the Bills would be much worse off if EJ kept playing

I don't believe EJ is as bad as his last game showed him to be. Lets not forget that Richardson was playing LG at that time, and EJ had no pocket to step up into, as the interior was so weak.

 

As inaccurate as he was he still went 21 of 44 for 2 TD's, 2 INT's. 5 of 16 3rd downs. 12 first downs passing. Which was better then Fitz.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I think he may eoither outright fire him, or give him too many conditions to accept to keeping his job like fire Hackert, fire the OL coach, etc. Marrone doesn't react quick enough so he gets fired.

 

In Marrone's defense if he did agree to get a new OC, he may have trouble finding someone unless Marrone himself gets extended else he's a lamb duck coach looking to hire a new OC

 

If Whaley survives the off-season and stays as GM I think he fires Marrone.

[K-9]

He's absolutely correct in thinking Orton gives them the best chance to win.

 

But from an organizational standpoint, if the Bills lose this weekend, you want to see in real game time what EJ learned on the sidelines. You don't want to be hoping/guessing the QB situation this offseason.

 

I just disagree that run for the bus games are "real game time." It's glorified preseason.

 

There are many things to consider from an organizational standpoint. One of which is, owing to the HUGE question of QB for next season and the even more HUGE fan hysteria surrounding it, if Manuel goes out and absolutely schits the bed, then I've just compounded the problem. If he goes out and does great, does that really convince anyone he's the long term answer because he had a couple decent outings in mop up time? No.

 

Run for the bus games make it too easy for his teammates to let up, lose focus, and not execute. There's a palatable letdown in the lockerroom when you've busted your ass all season and finally get eliminated from contention. It's human nature. For EJ to have the best opportunity to succeed, he needs his supporting cast to be all in, OLmen to finish blocks, receivers to be precise. He needs meaningful games played by teammates with meaningful expectations. I've seen too many letdowns over the years in end of the season run for the bus games.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited December 11, 2014 by K-9

[mrags]

I don't believe EJ is as bad as his last game showed him to be. Lets not forget that Richardson was playing LG at that time, and EJ had no pocket to step up into, as the interior was so weak.

 

As inaccurate as he was he still went 21 of 44 for 2 TD's, 2 INT's. 5 of 16 3rd downs. 12 first downs passing. Which was better then Fitz.

we forget that part. The OLine and much of the team wasn't together yet and firing on all cylinders. Not that it is any better now, but it is more experienced to say the least.

 

Orton isn't the answer long term with this team. I was hoping I was wrong before an he could be. But this year has proved what Orton is. No different from when we signed him. A career .500 QB. He has some good days. Some bad. In the end, it pretty much evens out.

 

With that said, right now he probably gives is the best chance to win games and maybe he gets on one of his 3-4 game streaks like earlier in the year where he played well and it takes is into the playoffs and further. Regardless, until were eliminated, he's probably our best option.

[Captain Hindsight]

I think there's a lot of assumptions in this thread about how certain people think/feel. All i know is if Marrone gets the Bills to .500 or better i don't think he's being fired (especially if they beat GB and/or NE). Around the league i bet it's a conclusion drawn by many NFL insiders that you cannot win in Buffalo. Maybe going forward this will change under Pegula, but to get a winning record here is a pretty major accomplishment.

Getting to 8-8 here is an accomplishment. We've had one winning season this entire century.

 

Marrone has this team playing hard. If he had a QB, we'd all feel a lot different about Doug.

 

I dont care if he's a nice guy or not. Belicheck and Harbaugh are dicks and people want them here

[1billsfan]

A decent QB makes this whole conversation go away.

 

Whaley has failed miserably at addressing the most important position on the team. They did an exhaustive, no stone unturned, examination and vowed to get a QB. So he turns a 3rd rounder into a 1st rounder and scrambles to cover for his mistake. This faith in EJ cost him a chance at a decent QB next year.

 

I dunno. On the plus side, he's completely fixed the defensive front 7. The negatives- No QB, a questionable offensive line, no TE and Questions at RB. Yet, you know they'll take WRs and CBs next year.

 

I wouldn't be crushed if they brought in a team with a cohesive vision.

 

Marrone is the failure, not Whaley just yet. Marrone has neutered his young 2nd year 1st round QB pick Manuel and the veteran journeyman QB Orton with his short passing game plans. I am embarrassed at how timid and afraid the Bills look in taking the fight and taking their shots downfield against opposing defenses. Marrone is a “kitty”. He is a “big boned” Dick Jauron. Marrone is a total coward for not letting EJ and Orton throw the ball DOWN THE FIELD!

 

Bill Parcells once yelled at Phil Simms for not taking enough chances…

 

http://www.giants.co...17-b466a7f6f620

 

“His greatest line to me ever was during the opening game in 1984 and we’re walking out of the locker room. He said, ‘If you don’t throw two interceptions today, you’re not taking enough chances.’ If a coach said that now, they’d be struck by lightning. Coaches say, ‘Turnovers are the biggest cause of winning and losing in the NFL. I want our team to take a lot of chances and be very dynamic, but we can’t turn the ball over.’ It’s funny. That wasn’t part of the mantra with him then and God, did I make some of the most unbelievable turnovers in history. I’d come to the sidelines and he would be so mad he couldn’t even talk and he would just hold it in and go, ‘Okay, it’s alright. That’s what I’m telling you. Take some chances.’ He’d say it through clenched teeth. Hey, you’re the one who told me to take chances, big guy. It was unbelievable looking back to think how brazen and how it is just so not like anything we hear or see now. In practice sometimes I’d throw the ball and complete it for five or six yards and they’d literally stop practice and yell at me. ‘Why are you throwing it there?’ Well, because the guy down the field was covered. ‘Hell, give him a chance. What are you worried about? Your completion percentage? Your quarterback rating?’ It just was a different thought process back then.

 

That in a nut shell is the biggest failure of the Bills attempt at developing EJ Manuel. They never told him it’s not only ok, but it's encouraged to take chances down the field. In fact, they told him the opposite. I watched an interview on BB.com where Hackett instructed the exact opposite of what Bill Parcells instructed to Simms. Hackett said that he told EJ to take the check down because the worst thing to do is throw interceptions. What did the Giants do when they drafted Eli Manning? They let him loose throwing the ball down field and he threw a ton of interceptions. He eventually learned what he could get away with and the Giants learned that they had a real NFL QB.

 

The Bills will NEVER know if they have a real QB until they let EJ loose to throw the ball downfield interceptions be damned. This is not a league where you can handhold a QB. Every QB worth anything had been given their shot to throw the ball downfield and the ones who could became the good to greats. It’s a shame that so many fans here just parrot the “EJ sucks” mantra without even knowing that Manuel has not had a true NFL evaluation with a heavy does of real NFL throws. NFL defenses would eventually stop Brady and Rogers in their tracks if they had these short passing only game plans. Marrone has cut Manuel’s “you-know-what’s” off the entire time. It makes me angry that next year will be year three with Manuel and they will still have not let their 1st round pick of a QB sink or swim with a real game plan that attacks a defense down field.

 

Marrone really does need to be fired if they lose to the Packers with yet another "grind the clock" loser of a game plan. Once he's gone I'd tell the new HC/OC to let EJ throw the ball 80 times with 40 down the field passes in the last two games. Let the real QB evaluation commence.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 1billsfan

[Freddie's Dead]

Here's my problem. Maroon clearly mishandled Urbik, arguably Mike Williams, and now EJ. After seeing Orton's pu$$y slide, and he still thinks Orton gives him the best chance to win? B word, please! I have ZERO confidence in Maroon's ability to recognize talent, and ZERO confidence in his ability as a game-day coach. I didn't know that Jerry Hughes was on the bench? B word, please! It's your job Dougie, and you don't measure up. I hope Maroon is fired. He threw away EJ's development by betting that Orton would get us to the playoffs. You make that bet and lose, then the price is the job.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Fred Jackson Jockstrap

[The Big Cat]

Here's my problem. Maroon clearly mishandled Urbik, arguably Mike Williams, and now EJ. After seeing Orton's pu$$y slide, and he still thinks Orton gives him the best chance to win? B word, please! I have ZERO confidence in Maroon's ability to recognize talent, and ZERO confidence in his ability as a game-day coach. I didn't know that Jerry Hughes was on the bench? B word, please! It's your job Dougie, and you don't measure up. I hope Maroon is fired. He threw away EJ's development by betting that Orton would get us to the playoffs. You make that bet and lose, then the price is the job.

 

The assumption that EJ can only develop through playing runs counter to pretty much everything we've historically understood about the QB position in the NFL.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

The assumption that EJ can only develop through playing runs counter to pretty much everything we've historically understood about the QB position in the NFL.

dont let that get in the way! Who cares if he can throw. Tebow would have ran for the 1st too. Sign him up.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I couldn't agree more. To be blunt...I'd be po'd if Whaley was shown the door. If Marrone is challenging him with this quote...he's foolish (IMHO).

Another perspective. Maybe he is challenging Orton ... maybe he wants to suggest that a change could be out of his control. Perhaps it lights a fire for Orton?

[26CornerBlitz]

Another perspective. Maybe he is challenging Orton ... maybe he wants to suggest that a change could be out of his control. Perhaps it lights a fire for Orton?

 

He should have tried that before the KC, MIA, and DEN games. A little late now. In all sincerity, Orton is who he's always been and it's simply not good enough to lead a playoff team.

[mrags]

 

 

He should have tried that before the KC, MIA, and DEN games. A little late now. In all sincerity, Orton is who he's always been and it's simply not good enough to lead a playoff team.

off the top off head here, but hasn't Orton led multiple teams to the playoffs in Chicago and Denver?

[Maddog69]

I'm starting to think that we might be stuck with this entire regime for another season.

Partially because of the difficulty the Pegula's might have finding a top notch HC/GM to take to job with the currently horrible offense and no #1 pick. It might be an easier sell next year if the wheels fall off. The current regime has provided minimally better overall record and probably deserves one more year.

 

That said, I would prefer a complete house cleaning because I have no faith in the current regime's ability to build a championship team.

 

[K-9]

He should have tried that before the KC, MIA, and DEN games. A little late now. In all sincerity, Orton is who he's always been and it's simply not good enough to lead a playoff team.

 

This is true. It sometimes becomes a question of who is even MORE not good enough at this point in time. Lesser of two evils kind of thing.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[TheFunPolice]

Marrone is going to do it his way, which I respect.

 

In life you have to roll with what your gut tells you since you'll be judged by results either way

 

Still, it looks like the friction that people talked about in August never went away.

 

If Harbaugh can get forced out, Marrone surely can

[Captain Hindsight]

off the top off head here, but hasn't Orton led multiple teams to the playoffs in Chicago and Denver?

Negative ghostrider

 

Orton won 10 games his rookie year, then was benched for Grossman. He barely played the next 2 years before falling one game short of the playoffs in his final season with the Bears.

 

With Denver he started 6-0 and finished 2-7 before being pulled.

 

A 3-10 record the following season before being benched for Capt. Handoff

 

and 1-4 before being benched for Tebowmania, subsequently cut and winning 2 games for the chiefs

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

[FireChan]

I still don't see a conflict here. Marrone will play whoever gives him the best chance to win until winning no longer matters to his boss, the talent evaluator. Did anyone think otherwise?

[JC2002]

He should have tried that before the KC, MIA, and DEN games. A little late now. In all sincerity, Orton is who he's always been and it's simply not good enough to lead a playoff team.

 

Or it could be that our passing game is around 17th when it was in the bottom 5 last year and that with Oline issues and young inexperienced receiving corps that we have bigger issues than QB .

 

Your denial of these very real FACTS is why you have such a hard time with his comments .

 

The very notion that some of you are hinting at that we brought Orton here to win every game with his arm is ridiculous .

[26CornerBlitz]

Or it could be that our passing game is around 17th when it was in the bottom 5 last year and that with Oline issues and young inexperienced receiving corps that we have bigger issues than QB .

 

Your denial of these very real FACTS is why you have such a hard time with his comments .

 

The very notion that some of you are hinting at that we brought Orton here to win every game with his arm is ridiculous .

 

What's ridiculous is Orton's failure in big games for this team where he has had chances to deliver accurate passes in key situations. He simply needed to do his share with the defense playing at such a high level and he failed miserably. You can keep the lame excuse making.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz

[Freddie's Dead]

The assumption that EJ can only develop through playing runs counter to pretty much everything we've historically understood about the QB position in the NFL.

 

You don't get better sitting on the bench, especially when the guy in front is not demonstrably better than you are.

 

Negative ghostrider

 

It's time to buzz the tower Goose.

 

Goddamn that guy!

[MDH]

Where is the conflict?

 

The Bills are in playoff race. If they win Sunday they're in great shape to potentially be 9-6 going into season finale.

 

If they are 7-8 and out if it, it would make sense to evaluate EJ further from a FO perspective and he knows that.

 

Starting EJ in New England after he has sat for 11 weeks isn't really going to help EJ develop or give a fair assessment of his growth. At this point I'd rather see Orton finish the season and let EJ compete for the starting job next year in training camp.

[3rdand12]

I agree 100%. How many of you think it was Pettines call to start Johnny Football? Did Rex really want to start Smith again? Marrone is just calling it like it is. He will put the best players on the field until someone higher up the food chain tells him differently. I think Marrone cares more about winning than trying to save face.

I agree 100 %.

But he could have done a better job phrasing it.

I think he is just taking ownership of the w/l column and the players play.

I respect him for that. I did not see a conflict. Its just how he thinks.

But i am a Doug Marrone fan still, so there is that.

[The Big Cat]

You don't get better sitting on the bench, especially when the guy in front is not demonstrably better than you are.

 

And again, the history of the NFL disagrees. And according to a week's worth of interviews once Orton took over, he was, in fact, demonstrably better at certain aspects of the game that quite frankly EJ had never been exposed to.

[JC2002]

What's ridiculous is Orton's failure in big games for this team where he has had chances to deliver accurate passes in key situations. He simply needed to do his share with the defense playing at such a high level and he failed miserably. You can keep the lame excuse making.

 

You keep saying his share but in reality you mean perfection because youve been at his since day one . First it was the sacks and turnovers even when were winning so its not about a few key passes youve made that quite clear . .

 

Facts are excuses to only those who refuse to accept them for what they are

[26CornerBlitz]

You keep saying his share but in reality you mean perfection because youve been at his since day one . First it was the sacks and turnovers even when were winning so its not about a few key passes youve made that quite clear . .

 

Facts are excuses to only those who refuse to accept them for what they are

 

With a defense like the Bills have he doesn't have to play at an all-pro or pro bowl level. A decent game manager QB would be good enough to get this team to the playoffs with the performance of the defense in just about every key game in the last several weeks including the KC, MIA, and DEN games.

 

No one is talking about perfection except you. Fact: Orton has sucked when it has mattered the most. You can accept that or not. Meow.