Chargers All-22

[FireChan]

This post is spot on and you have managed very well to pinpoint the major problem with EJ's game...

 

Vet QB's are going to miss the proper reads at times and get off their game a bit while being pressured...Brady and Manning are the best in the business, but both have a history of struggling when intense pressure is brought...especially when that pressure is brought up the middle...

 

There seems to be a a ton of over-analysis concerning EJ considering he just finished his 13th NFL start... The truth is over the past two games, and for most of his 13 game career thus-far, if he simply hits his receiver in stride when he makes the right read on plays the Bills offense would be light-years ahead of where it is now...

 

And some posters wonder why we run on first down a lot. A play like that is gonna lead to a 3 and out 90% of the time.

[BillsVet]

Good stuff, as it gives the average joe insight into what actually happens during the game.

 

The Bills had better find a way to get that run game working or it will be another long season for that fans. Perhaps a shorter one for some of the coaches.

 

Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes.

 

In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season.

 

We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air.

 

EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly.

[GG]

The most troubling thing from this analysis and from watching the game is that once the pressure starts coming, EJ gets flustered and misses what look like the easiest of throws. At least on a couple of occasions, if not more, I saw a receiver wide open and EJ threw behind or over him. This is frustrating to watch and quite concerning. This is the closest I have watched a development of a QB as I did not have the Sunday ticket during JP and Trent's early years. So, I am not sure if this 'panic mode' is correctable or not. There is no way an NFL QB can get clean pockets as against the Bears and Dolphins. The QB has to be able to stand tall, step away from pressure, keep eyes downfield and complete passes with defenders coming at him. If we do not see this in EJ's development this year, I doubt it will develop in the future. As of now, I am willing to give him time, but am getting mildly concerned.

 

Forget the slow eyes, welcome to happy feet. There were a handful of plays on which bailed out too soon and outside the Houdini pass to Chandler he did not look downfield when protection broke down, or worse on the designed roll outs. The last drive of the game still drives me nuts. It was a drive like that which got Trentative booted off the team, but we're supposed to believe that it's a learning step for EJ.

[Cash]

Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes.

 

In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season.

 

We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air.

 

EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly.

 

The other issue (and this has been said in other threads as well) is that when we do throw deep, it tends to be go routes only. A few successful 15-20 yard square ins will back off the defense pretty well, but too often, our passing playbook seems to be drag routes, curls, go routes, and rollouts, and that's it. It's the intermediate stuff -- think 10-20 yards past the line of scrimmage -- where you really hurt a defense, and it's definitely lacking for us. How much of that is on Hackett and how much on EJ, I don't know. I will say that unlike the Trent Edwards era, we at least have more short throws to WRs or RBs on the move, rather than stationary targets.

[Maddog69]

Am I missing something, or is no one holding the piss-poor play of the O-line the least bit culpable for the pressure Manuel got?

Nope. EJ sucks, don't you get it? Anything bad that happens is 100% EJ's fault. He needs to be absolutely perfect on every throw or he is a bust. This board is a joke. The line played like crap. The coaches did not adjust to SD running stunts, the run game was ineffective. The front office could see the issues on the OL all preseason and did nothing to address it. Sammy Watkins, the greatest WR of all time admitted to "taking a play off". The team had over 100yds in penalties. But we lost solely and exclusively because EJ (in his 14th start) is terrible and will never improve. Give me a break.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Maddog69

[GG]

Nope. EJ suck, don't you get it? Anything bad that happens is 100% EJ's fault. He needs to be absolutely perfect on every throw or he is a bust. This board is a joke. The like played like crap. The coaches did not adjust to SD running stunts, the run game was ineffective. But we lost solely and exclusively because EJ (in his 14th start) is terrible and will never improve.

 

Actually, they did. Watch the second half, Hackett made adjustments and EJ still didn't make the needed plays.

[Captain Caveman]

How many of EJs decisions are made pre-snap? How many of a more seasoned QBs decisions are made pre-snap? Trust (in himself and teammates & bravado (belief in himself to the extreme) seem to be areas where EJ is lacking. Not sure that those are traits that can be enhanced or learned though.

 

How much of the trust not being there is based on his receivers not being where they're supposed to be. Hard for us to know, but there were at least three throws on Sunday that looked like EJ decisively placed a ball somewhere not near a receiver. Seemed like he was expecting them to be somewhere else. Maybe I'm seeing something that's not there, maybe it's a misread by EJ, or maybe it's a misread by the receiver. We can't tell unfortunately, but I think it's worth consideration, especially when discussing trust.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Captain Caveman

[Maddog69]

 

 

Actually, they did. Watch the second half, Hackett made adjustments and EJ still didn't make the needed plays.

The stunts were still confounding the OL in the second half. And if we are placing blame, lots should go to Hackett. My 11yr old son can tell you what play they are going to run on almost every play when they come up to the line of scrimmage. I personally would have fired Hackett after last year and brought in someone with NFL experience as a play caller. I think Hackett is the biggest issue with the offense.

 

[DC Greg]

Boy that last one where he didn't see Chandler wide open... c'mon EJ.

[Big C]

Interesting that Joe B says Gilmore graded positively in coverage. Well enough to give him a positive overall grade for the game.

[Bufcomments]

Here are 5 Vines from the last game that highlight his accuracy issues. In each clip the OL holds up nicely and gives him time to throw. He stands tall in the pocket, makes the correct reads, finds the open man, and then....then....he just misfires. His inconsistent play didn't just start last week either. I can excuse a young QB for not picking up a blitz, for not seeing an open receiver, or for not reading a coverage correctly. But when you do all the aforementioned correctly and simply can't throw a football accurately, well I'm just not sure that's an easily correctable part of a QB's skill set.

 

 

https://vine.co/u/1126081375733444608

Excellent post.

 

I dont think it is correctable myself but I am still willing to give him the rest of the year to find out.

[Captain Hindsight]

What a great analysis. It's interesting that EJ's biggest issues right now are not mechanical, as so many posters like to parrot. EJ's actually pretty damn good at evading initial pressure in his face, but like Joe B concluded, he panics once he successfully evades it--which sucks. He did the truly hard part and then doesn't make the defense pay they way QB's like Peyton, Rodgers, and Big Ben do.

 

I don't know why so many Bills fans are up in arms over EJ. I see a lot of good stuff and his issues here (field awareness, decision making, accuracy) are things that will very likely improve with simple experience.

 

I'm actually encouraged by this. If EJ"s accuracy issues were a result of just mechanics from a clean pocket I'd be worried. But this is the game still being too fast at times for him. The only way it'll slow down is to keep playing and keep getting these situations. Teams will likely start using this game plan that TB and SD used to rattle him, and you know what? He'll start learning how to beat it.

This is how I feel about EJ. I see enough good out of him that makes me think one day it could all just click and he becomes a great player but he has a way to go and lots of areas to improve.

 

I see no reason to give up on him yet. I think he needs to play with more confidence and trust his arm and reads. He was rattled sunday, hopefully that is an aberration and not a trend.

 

It is important to note that last year, his two worst games (Pittsburgh and Tampa) he played very well the following week (Jets and Jags). He hasn't put together multiple bad games in a row which to me is a good sign.

[Bocephuz]

EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often .. it was either go deep or try to throw screens or crossing routes.( not too many intermediate comebacks or curls).

 

 

I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one

 

 

I think Hackett needs to get back to the short 3 step drop curl/ slant game so the receivers' timing is timed up better with EJ's drops.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by Bocephuz

[YoloinOhio]

EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often and there were moments where he was aggressive

 

 

I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one

 

i remember a few times he took shots downfield. Flowers had good coverage on Watkins on one and Goodwin drew DPI on another. I think we will see more, the D is going to give it to us.

[Bocephuz]

This is how I feel about EJ. I see enough good out of him that makes me think one day it could all just click and he becomes a great player but he has a way to go and lots of areas to improve.

 

I see no reason to give up on him yet. I think he needs to play with more confidence and trust his arm and reads. He was rattled sunday, hopefully that is an aberration and not a trend.

 

It is important to note that last year, his two worst games (Pittsburgh and Tampa) he played very well the following week (Jets and Jags). He hasn't put together multiple bad games in a row which to me is a good sign.

 

He needs to take advantage of his height and watch Rivers or Brady to learn the ole side step shuffle in the pocket

 

Another thought after watching all 22...Hackett kept trying to run the clear out drag crossing play for Sammy where everyone else runs go routes to clear out for Sammy. Since they had Sammy bottled up on most of those plays EJ's secondary reads are all go routes.. and by the time you see Sammy's not open it's too late to even attempt throwing the go routes( especially when your o line is sucking)

Edited September 24, 2014 by Bocephuz

[K-9]

Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes.

 

In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season.

 

We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air.

 

EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly.

 

You mean like when he hurt both Chicago and Miami doing exactly that?

 

The only new ground San Diego hoed was how to attack our OLine and force middle pressure, something that any QB is not comfortable with. That said, EJ needs to develop more patience and not bail early as a result of getting harassed previously. That comes with experience. Anyway, I'm not too concerned with Manuel not being able to hit deeper passes; he's shown the ability on several occasions in the past. We definitely need to see more of it but let's not pretend like he's literally not capable.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[26CornerBlitz]

‏@TheJoeMarino

The #Bills would not run a 7 yard button hook and 7 yard out route in the same play. Someone ran wrong route. Miscue.

[26CornerBlitz]

@TheJoeMarino

Not uncommon 4 both #Bills DT's Williams & Dareus to get doubled vs the run. Can u imagine Kiko roaming behind this?

 

[The Wiz]

‏@TheJoeMarino

The #Bills would not run a 7 yard button hook and 7 yard out route in the same play. Someone ran wrong route. Miscue.

EJ must have told one of them to run a different route so no one was over the middle....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

EJ was definitely shaky.. however.. my perception of him being captain checkdown ( at least in the first 3 quarters.. ) was changed after watching the All 22. From what I saw he was trying to go deep quite often .. it was either go deep or try to throw screens or crossing routes.( not too many intermediate comebacks or curls).

 

 

I saw very few intermediate curl routes run.. however.. this is an example of a successful one

 

 

I think Hackett needs to get back to the short 3 step drop curl/ slant game so the receivers' timing is timed up better with EJ's drops.

 

Would you please post more often? That's good stuff.

[Deranged Rhino]

How do you telestrate (sp) and post? I'd love to learn if you could shoot me a PM.

[26CornerBlitz]

How do you telestrate (sp) and post? I'd love to learn if you could shoot me a PM.

 

Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro are tools that can be used to do it.

Edited September 25, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz

[Doc]

Here are 5 Vines from the last game that highlight his accuracy issues. In each clip the OL holds up nicely and gives him time to throw. He stands tall in the pocket, makes the correct reads, finds the open man, and then....then....he just misfires. His inconsistent play didn't just start last week either. I can excuse a young QB for not picking up a blitz, for not seeing an open receiver, or for not reading a coverage correctly. But when you do all the aforementioned correctly and simply can't throw a football accurately, well I'm just not sure that's an easily correctable part of a QB's skill set.

 

 

https://vine.co/u/1126081375733444608

First pass got to Sammy, but was so wobbly EJ either lost control of it while throwing, or the wind took it. The 2nd one was a deep pass that EJ overthrew. The 3rd one looked so weird, the the wind must have taken it. The 4th one, Sammy wasn't even looking for it. And the 5th one was to Sammy and he should have pulled it in.

[Deranged Rhino]

Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro are tools that can be used to to it.

 

Thanks for that.

[CardinalScotts]

what this does show is there are lots of "things" going on besides EJ having a bad game....which frankly was what it looked like on TV

[NoSaint]

This is how I feel about EJ. I see enough good out of him that makes me think one day it could all just click and he becomes a great player but he has a way to go and lots of areas to improve.

 

I see no reason to give up on him yet. I think he needs to play with more confidence and trust his arm and reads. He was rattled sunday, hopefully that is an aberration and not a trend.

 

It is important to note that last year, his two worst games (Pittsburgh and Tampa) he played very well the following week (Jets and Jags). He hasn't put together multiple bad games in a row which to me is a good sign.

 

Agree. I'm not laying money in him as "the answer," but I wouldn't rule him out either. Also of note from the Tampa game- the jags threw some of the same concepts that tripped him up and he handled them well. So its not like this game proves he's suddenly been figured out -simply that he didn't get it done this week. We will see about next

[K-9]

Agree. I'm not laying money in him as "the answer," but I wouldn't rule him out either. Also of note from the Tampa game- the jags threw some of the same concepts that tripped him up and he handled them well. So its not like this game proves he's suddenly been figured out -simply that he didn't get it done this week. We will see about next

 

As I said in one of the other ubiquitous EJ threads, in many ways, the Houston game is much more of a barometer than the San Diego game. The performance last Sunday was almost predictable in retrospect: coming off a huge win after perhaps the most emotional week in team history. The entire team seemed flat coming out of the gate. Hell, the fans were a bit hung over as well. This week may tell us a lot.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Deranged Rhino]

As I said in one of the other ubiquitous EJ threads, in many ways, the Houston game is much more of a barometer than the San Diego game. The performance last Sunday was almost predictable in retrospect: coming off a huge win after perhaps the most emotional week in team history. The entire team seemed flat coming out of the gate. Hell, the fans were a bit hung over as well. This week may tell us a lot.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

It's a good point. Let's see how he rebounds on the road.

[Doc]

If the Bills' defense can't shut down a Fitz-led offense, it's going to be a long season.

[Deranged Rhino]

If the Bills' defense can't shut down a Fitz-led offense, it's going to be a long season.

 

Also a good point.

[K-9]

It's a good point. Let's see how he rebounds on the road.

 

EJ's not the only one that needs to respond. There were many players that had crap performances last Sunday.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Deranged Rhino]

EJ's not the only one that needs to respond. There were many players that had crap performances last Sunday.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Absolutely. I'll be looking for a rebound from a lot of players.

 

 

...But if Pears wants to miss the plane, that's cool.

[BillsVet]

EJ's not the only one that needs to respond. There were many players that had crap performances last Sunday.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/fantasy-roto-arcade/wondering-what-happened-to-sammy-watkins--ej-manuel-happened--that-s-what-155456544.html

 

This writer (and his name isn't Rodak, Graham, or Sullivan) disagrees.

 

Manuel was plain dreadful throwing the simplest routes a QB is asked to throw in the NFL.

[K-9]

Absolutely. I'll be looking for a rebound from a lot of players.

 

 

...But if Pears wants to miss the plane, that's cool.

 

I hear that. Any chance Watt takes him lightly? Then again, they move him around so much, he'll be giving the entire OLine bad dreams this week.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/fantasy-roto-arcade/wondering-what-happened-to-sammy-watkins--ej-manuel-happened--that-s-what-155456544.html

 

This writer (and his name isn't Rodak, Graham, or Sullivan) disagrees.

 

Manuel was plain dreadful throwing the simplest routes a QB is asked to throw in the NFL.

 

I don't recall k9 saying he played great- just that others were bad too

[K-9]

http://sports.yahoo....-155456544.html

 

This writer (and his name isn't Rodak, Graham, or Sullivan) disagrees.

 

Manuel was plain dreadful throwing the simplest routes a QB is asked to throw in the NFL.

 

I don't care if that writer is Shakespeare, there were many players that played poorly and they all need to rebound. Anyone with a clue that watched that game knows that's the case. If folks need to believe that EJ and ONLY EJ played poorly, then so be it. But it really indicates an ignorance that doesn't merit a response.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I don't recall k9 saying he played great- just that others were bad too

 

Hell, I might go as far as to say the bad play even begins with Manuel. But it didn't come close to ending with him, either.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Yard Monkey]

Agreed it goes well beyond Manuel

Edited September 25, 2014 by Yard Monkey

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/fantasy-roto-arcade/wondering-what-happened-to-sammy-watkins--ej-manuel-happened--that-s-what-155456544.html

 

This writer (and his name isn't Rodak, Graham, or Sullivan) disagrees.

 

Manuel was plain dreadful throwing the simplest routes a QB is asked to throw in the NFL.

well then it must be true.

[thewildrabbit]

Hard to run the ball when you're facing 8 in the box with a QB who won't attempt and/or can't complete intermediate to deep passes.

 

In 2011, Buffalo started 5-2 and hosted NYJ in Week 9. The Jets knew Buffalo's offense was built on Fitzpatrick making quick short throws, so they jammed their receivers at the LOS and disrupted that timing. The Bills went 1-8 the rest of the way (including that game) on the way to a 6-10 season.

 

We're already seeing a similar pattern this year. The blueprint for beating Buffalo was written on Sunday so long as Manuel refuses to attempt (and complete) intermediate or longer passes. Because he can't hurt you that way, teams are going to continue selling out to stop the run knowing he's incapable of making them pay through the air.

 

EJ is the key. The OL was bad, but the majority of the blame should be placed on the tentative QB, who it seems the team is losing faith in quickly.

For that 2011 season I saw things much differently. While at times opposing defenses did jam the line and take away that short / quick passing game. They didn't manage to do it all the time because Stevie found a way to to get open, and Fitz found a way to get him the ball. Not even Revis Island could cover Stevie all the time.

 

Alas, in all their frugality the Bills cut backup center Geoff Hangartener in preseason. So, when the bills played the NY Jets in week 9 and Eric Wood went out for the year, the Bills had no answer for a replacement center. The next few games were a comedy of errors trying to find someone who could do that job, and ultimately the Bills went on a 7 game losing slide. Remember that Dolphin game, as the Bills couldn't even get a decent snap from center all game. How embarrassing!!

 

Fitz and Stevie both suffered nasty injuries that year, and Fitz had broken ribs from the Redskin game. Gailey being the moron he was, kept playing Fitz because he had no adequate backup QB. I think what sunk Fitz the next season was the new QB coach messing with his mechanics for 2012.

 

Anyway, Gailey used to find a way to run the ball even when they stacked the box, as he would use that 4 WR spread offense, and Fitz would hand off out of the shotgun. The problem was Gailey couldn't stop calling pass plays, as soon as the bills were down by three points.

 

 

Hackett's problem is he keeps trying to max protect with some scrubs on that line, and it ain't never gonna work consistently, as Chandler and those OG's are nearly worthless at times. I think he is sometimes being over careful. you would think he would take some pages from Gailey's playbook, and spread things out with 3-4 WR's. Spiller or Fredex out on the perimeter along with Sammy would scare the hell out of defenses. Just make sure EJ gets the ball out in under 3 seconds.

 

The Chargers were so successful because they recognized the weakness in the Bills O line at the OG positions, and kept stunting. They only rushed with 4, but because of the confusion all that stunting caused they managed to get pressure in EJ's face so he couldn't step up in the pocket. After all the quickest way to the QB is right up the middle. Once a QB gets rattled in a game its difficult for him to regain confidence. Whats most concerning to me is the QB-receiver timing being so out of sync at times, its like they don't practice very much.

 

I yearn for a quality experienced NFL offensive coordinator.

[HamSandwhich]

Where's the vine of this play? Pretty interesting article but one pictures shows a pretty clear "hands to the face" that wasn't called and allowed Royal to score.

 

http://mashable.com/2014/09/24/crazy-nfl-photo-chargers/