Kryk: JBJ never promised to keep Bills in buffalo beyond lease

[FluffHead]

@JohnKryk: #BonJovi & Toronto never promised to keep #Bills in Buffalo beyond lease & here's exact wording of their 'pledge': http://t.co/ETZFgD7pO6

[Hapless Bills Fan]

@JohnKryk: #BonJovi & Toronto never promised to keep #Bills in Buffalo beyond lease & here's exact wording of their 'pledge': http://t.co/ETZFgD7pO6

 

Who?

[Captain Hindsight]

Pegula!!!!!

[devldog131]

Bon Jovi... didn't he play running back for the pats* a few years ago?

[The Dean]

"pretzel logic" indeed. The JBJ group was doomed from the word "go". But obviously from what we now know, they were never even a possibility.

[Hplarrm]

This a big part of why the JBJ team did not get the Bills. The NFL in the end is all about what makes the current team owners the most money. Is there anyone out there who does not understand that the current NFL uberguys make the most money by getting their share of a $1.4 billion Bills franchise AND their share of a new Toronto franchise when they expand the league in not too many years from now.

 

Small minds somehow calculate the deal as being either Buffalo or Toronto when it is clear that the NFL makes the most money from having both.

 

if the Bills had moved to Toronto, the NFL would be giving up their share of 45.000+ season ticket holders, 25.000+ individual ticket buyers who routinely have given the Bills (and the other NFL owners for their share of the individual team take) their dollars. Add to that the 100s of millions in local commercial dollars and add to that 100s of million dollars in NY governments corporate welfare which is given to the Bills.

 

This money does not travel with the team and even though it might probably be replaced by even larger amounts from buyers in the bigger Toronto market, the NFL does not tend to give away money and it is incredibly doubtful to me that they will.

 

I think it should have been clear to anyone analyzing the game that the Bills were gonna remain here.

[gobilz]

back to the 80s he goes

[BillsPride12]

TERRY TERRY TERRY TERRY

[LeGOATski]

Old news?

[The Dean]

Old news?

 

Not really. We never had confirmation their promise to the Trust was as empty as Bon Jovi's letter in the Snooze. This was the stake in the heart of the TO group, after they had been splashed with holy water, touched by a cross and exposed to daylight,

[jr1]

Aqua Net huffing freak

[devldog131]

This a big part of why the JBJ team did not get the Bills. The NFL in the end is all about what makes the current team owners the most money. Is there anyone out there who does not understand that the current NFL uberguys make the most money by getting their share of a $1.4 billion Bills franchise AND their share of a new Toronto franchise when they expand the league in not too many years from now.

 

Small minds somehow calculate the deal as being either Buffalo or Toronto when it is clear that the NFL makes the most money from having both.

 

if the Bills had moved to Toronto, the NFL would be giving up their share of 45.000+ season ticket holders, 25.000+ individual ticket buyers who routinely have given the Bills (and the other NFL owners for their share of the individual team take) their dollars. Add to that the 100s of millions in local commercial dollars and add to that 100s of million dollars in NY governments corporate welfare which is given to the Bills.

 

This money does not travel with the team and even though it might probably be replaced by even larger amounts from buyers in the bigger Toronto market, the NFL does not tend to give away money and it is incredibly doubtful to me that they will.

 

I think it should have been clear to anyone analyzing the game that the Bills were gonna remain here.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on there being two franchises in the same market. Toronto, as we know, is considered part of the Buffalo Bills regional market. While this market is capable of supporting one franchise, it is clearly not capable of supporting two franchises.

 

In the Toronto series games, Rogers and the Toronto metro area weren't able to sell out even one game a year in a stadium that is too small to be considered a home for an NFL team. You think the league wants to see 8 (or 9) games a year in Toronto with half (or more) of the seats empty?

 

The move of the Bills franchise only seemed feasible to the league because they assumed, however incorrectly, that the bulk of loyal Bills fans would follow the team to Toronto and fill the stadium there. As was made painfully obvious to the guys on Park Avenue, that was clearly not the case.

[The Dean]

I wouldn't hold my breath on there being two franchises in the same market. Toronto, as we know, is considered part of the Buffalo Bills regional market. While this market is capable of supporting one franchise, it is clearly not capable of supporting two franchises.

 

 

This is simply not the case. We like to think it is, as the Bills have done a very good job of cultivating the Toronto market. But they are, in reality, two completely distinct markets for virtually all commercial purposes. The International border assures that.

 

Now if Toronto and Buffalo were in the same country, they would likely be in the same market.

[devldog131]

 

 

This is simply not the case. We like to think it is, as the Bills have done a very good job of cultivating the Toronto market. But they are, in reality, two completely distinct markets for virtually all commercial purposes. The International border assures that.

 

Now if Toronto and Buffalo were in the same country, they would likely be in the same market.

 

I am not stating that Toronto in in the same market in terms of trade, finance, or business.

 

However:

 

"Toronto is less than 100 miles driving distance from Buffalo. But as the Canada goose flies, it's only about 60 miles away, well within the NFL's 75-mile radius of a team's marketing territory."

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/2008-12-04-toronto-cover_N.htm

Edited September 14, 2014 by devldog131

[The Dean]

I am not stating that Toronto in in the same market in terms of trade, finance, or business.

 

However:

 

"Toronto is less than 100 miles driving distance from Buffalo. But as the Canada goose flies, it's only about 60 miles away, well within the NFL's 75-mile radius of a team's marketing territory."

 

http://usatoday30.us...nto-cover_N.htm

 

 

 

I am not stating that Toronto in in the same market in terms of trade, finance, or business.

 

However:

 

"Toronto is less than 100 miles driving distance from Buffalo. But as the Canada goose flies, it's only about 60 miles away, well within the NFL's 75-mile radius of a team's marketing territory."

 

http://usatoday30.us...nto-cover_N.htm

 

How do you explain San Francisco and Oakland? The Giants and the Jets? The LA---or yeah, never mind.

 

I don't think Toronto is a football time or can/will support a team,. But I can think of no reason why an NFC team can't be put there.

[devldog131]

Apologies for the multi post. The joys of a smart phone and a shoddy network connection.

 

The SF/Oakland metropolitan area, which in all reality the San Jose metropolitan area, is significantly larger that the Buffalo Market. Most are unaware, but the city of San Jose is the 10th largest city in America and the third largest in California (behind LA and San Diego) and SF and Oak are right behind at 4 and 5 respectively.

 

The Giants and Jets are in the nation's largest market.

 

Also, SF and the Giants were members of the NFL, Oakland and the Jests were part of the AFL. The fact that they were in those locations so when the merger took place is why they are so close together.

 

But the Raiders moved to LA, you say. That's true, they did. But in some roundabout way they managed to retain their territorial rights in Oakland, thereby enabling their move back.

Edited September 14, 2014 by devldog131

[The Dean]

Apologies for the multi post. The joys of a smart phone and a shoddy network connection.

 

The SF/Oakland metropolitan area, which in all reality the San Jose metropolitan area, is significantly larger that the Buffalo Market. Most are unaware, but the city of San Jose is the 10th largest city in America and the third largest in California (behind LA and San Diego) and SF and Oak are right behind at 4 and 5 respectively.

 

The Giants and Jets are in the nation so largest market.

 

Also, SF and the Giants were members of the NFL, Oakland and the Jests were part of the AFL. The fact that they were in those locations so when the merger took place is why they are so close together.

 

But the Raiders moved to LA, you say. That's true, they did. But in some roundabout way they managed to retain their territorial rights in Oakland, thereby enabling their move back.

 

But in this case, we'd be talking about the Buffalo-Toronto market. You said so yourself, right? The TO market has over 5 Million people. I believe the Toronto-Buffalo market is bigger than the SF market. I may be wrong, but I bet it's close.

[devldog131]

But, again, those particular teams are only in the same markets because one was in the AFL and one was in the NFL prior to the merger and remained in those markets after the merger took place.

[The Dean]

But, again, those particular teams are only in the same markets because one was in the AFL and one was in the NFL prior to the merger and remained in those markets after the merger took place.

 

I'm with you on thinking TO isn't the best place for an NFL team. But if they want to expand there, they will have no problem doing so, The International border makes these two distinctly different markets. The size of the combined markets is more than big enough to support two teams (though I would have an issue with an AFC team in TO). The Oakland situation provides precedent.

 

You know what I think is crazy? The 49ers have been relocated with nary a peep. The are now the San Jose 49ers. Is nobody complaining? Granted Candlestick Park was a horrendous football stadium, but to move nearly an hour away seems a bit drastic. I understand San Jose has many more people than San Francisco, but the are the SF 49ers, are they not? This would be like moving the Bills to Hamilton (without the border issue) and still calling them the Buffalo Bills. I wonder why more people aren't complaining.

[jimmy10]

I KNEW Bon Jovi couldn't be trusted! And you all wanted him as the next owner!

[The Dean]

I KNEW Bon Jovi couldn't be trusted! And you all wanted him as the next owner!

 

[devldog131]

 

 

I'm with you on thinking TO isn't the best place for an NFL team. But if they want to expand there, they will have no problem doing so, The International border makes these two distinctly different markets. The size of the combined markets is more than big enough to support two teams (though I would have an issue with an AFC team in TO). The Oakland situation provides precedent.

 

You know what I think is crazy? The 49ers have been relocated with nary a peep. The are now the San Jose 49ers. Is nobody complaining? Granted Candlestick Park was a horrendous football stadium, but to move nearly an hour away seems a bit drastic. I understand San Jose has many more people than San Francisco, but the are the SF 49ers, are they not? This would be like moving the Bills to Hamilton (without the border issue) and still calling them the Buffalo Bills. I wonder why more people aren't complaining.

 

More people aren't complaining because most of the 49ers' fans are from the south bay (around San Jose) anyway. And it's closer to half an hour than an hour. In all reality, SF is a suburb of San Jose.

Edited September 14, 2014 by devldog131

[PromoTheRobot]

JBJ = D-bag

[mitchmurraydowntown]

Really? Who would of known?

[yall]

 

 

More people aren't complaining because most of the 49ers' fans are from the south bay (around San Jose) anyway. And it's closer to half an hour than an hour. In all reality, SF is a suburb of San Jose.

 

Can you and The Dean please stop having a reasonable conversation? You're really diverging from the normal level of discourse and frankly, it quite disconcerting.

[Hplarrm]

 

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on there being two franchises in the same market. Toronto, as we know, is considered part of the Buffalo Bills regional market. While this market is capable of supporting one franchise, it is clearly not capable of supporting two franchises.

 

In the Toronto series games, Rogers and the Toronto metro area weren't able to sell out even one game a year in a stadium that is too small to be considered a home for an NFL team. You think the league wants to see 8 (or 9) games a year in Toronto with half (or more) of the seats empty?

 

The move of the Bills franchise only seemed feasible to the league because they assumed, however incorrectly, that the bulk of loyal Bills fans would follow the team to Toronto and fill the stadium there. As was made painfully obvious to the guys on Park Avenue, that was clearly not the case.

 

I don't think a ;ot of your assumptions are supported by the facts.

 

1. Raw #s- GTA (as the Greater Toronto Area us called up there) has a population of just over 6 million people. I doubt the NFL will ever be as popular a sport in CA as in the US. However, when one compares a fan base of 6 million to the under 300,000 Buffaloanisams amd evem a million in GBA, it shows why the Toronto market had ut all over the Buffalo market IF the two had to compete (which in the NFL mind they do not.

 

A Toronto team would clearly profit from a number of cash streams which one would have to make a compelling case that there is not money to be raked in from all the HQs of Canadian companies who would buy skyboxes for a Toronto team, all the commercial entities who would be pleased as anything to buy commercials to sell their products to Canadian eyeballs and even whatever corporate welfare they could pry out of Canadian govts_ I do not think they would be as venal as Erie County. the City of Buffalo, and apparently NYS are or would be but who knows they elected Rob Ford to be Mayor.

 

2. Other major sports- Tes hockey and football are two very different things and are mot the same, but ut would be silly to claim that there are no lessons to be learned whatsoever and the NHL lesson is that major sports franchises can exist simultaneously in these two cities. In fact, if anything one can see that this league has not taken advantage of the nearness of these two markets and tried to profit from increased emphasis on competeition between the Maple Leafs and Sabres. In fact the default thinking is that these two markets are too far away from each other rather than them being in the same territory. Ralph cut a deal to try to assert and enhance Buffalo calling Toronto their market (and thus building a case for a new Toronto team to have to ship several million bucks to Buffalo for nothing.

 

The fact is that Toronto is a different market than Buffalo (as proven by the failure in overpriced tickets you mention) and in fact some argue that Toronto is more like NYC and can support 2 franchises. I don't think so as actually the southern part of GTA (down to about Hamilton) is actually Bills country. You can drive to the Raloh in half an hour from Hamilton and south but in CA and would need an hour to get to downtown Toronto from there. The GTA market is in fart big enough it can support a new NFL team and still leave the current southern Ontario fans to the Bills.

 

3. Many folks seem caught up in the past where men like George Halas, Wellington Mara and the boys ran the NFL like the robber barons they were. However, wit these captains of industry destroying the AFL-CIO types who ran it in the mid-80s so badly it opened the door for Gene Upshaw and a talented tenth of athletes to instead sell their fellow players on adopting a threat to decertify the NFLPA as a bargaining agent.

 

This resulted in the owners rejecting adoption of a free market model if the NFLPA ceased to exist as a bargaining agent. The owners instead agreed to the CBA which essentially made the players not mere employees of the owners but actually partners. Arguably when the CBA was renegotiated by agreement in a few years and NFLPA head Gene Upshaw dictated before negotiations that the result must not only be based on total gross receipts but that the player share must start with a 6, the players are arguably the majority partners.

 

The real deal here is that a primary focus on the wealth of the team owner is outmoded thinking. The real thinking now looks at the fact that the TV nets which contractually pay billions to the NFL is the true dominant economic driver.

 

There always was and always will be a Buffalo franchise and Teey Pegula just gave us $1.4 billion reasons why. If was mot him it would have been Golisano, Jacobs, an outsider like a Trimp or JBJ who the NFL would have forced to show them the money by staying here. If not them then Jimbo might have organized something with the deep pocket financier he was talking to and several millions he could have leverage from former players to get a loan of the billions needed to buy the team.

 

I have little doubt the economics kept the Bills here.

[26CornerBlitz]

In other news, there are twenty four hours in a day and seven days in a week.

[JPL7]

I found it interesting that the article said the NFL would never approve Trump as owner. What exactly would be the NFL's reasoning for that??

[Buffalo Barbarian]

@JohnKryk: #BonJovi & Toronto never promised to keep #Bills in Buffalo beyond lease & here's exact wording of their 'pledge': http://t.co/ETZFgD7pO6

 

what a "shocker"

 

"pretzel logic" indeed. The JBJ group was doomed from the word "go". But obviously from what we now know, they were never even a possibility.

 

yep

[thebandit27]

I think Kryk has done a very good job here of illustrating two things:

 

1) This team was never, ever in danger of leaving

 

2) The Toronto group was kept around for bidding leverage, as many here surmised.

[White Linen]

Even if he promised up and down - he wasn't getting the team.

[Doc]

How do you explain San Francisco and Oakland? The Giants and the Jets? The LA---or yeah, never mind.

 

I don't think Toronto is a football time or can/will support a team,. But I can think of no reason why an NFC team can't be put there.

I think it has to do with the fact that the Jets and Raiders were original AFL teams that were merged with the NFL, and the Giants and 49'ers didn't have a problem with them being in the same market. I think that Pegula wouldn't allow them to put a team in Toronto considering it's a within the 75 mile radius.

[jimmy10]

I found it interesting that the article said the NFL would never approve Trump as owner. What exactly would be the NFL's reasoning for that??

 

Because Trump led some sort of massive lawsuit against the NFL back in the 80s when he owned a team in the USFL.

[CardinalScotts]

someone send this to Jaws

[Pondslider]

Because Trump led some sort of massive lawsuit against the NFL back in the 80s when he owned a team in the USFL.

 

Also he's Donald Trump.

[Doc]

I'd like to know who the other 2 bidders were and what they bid? I wish Pegs had bid just $1B to win it because that $400M extra could have gone to the new stadium.

[The Dean]

I think it has to do with the fact that the Jets and Raiders were original AFL teams that were merged with the NFL, and the Giants and 49'ers didn't have a problem with them being in the same market. I think that Pegula wouldn't allow them to put a team in Toronto considering it's a within the 75 mile radius.

 

I believe would fight it. But if the NFL decides they want to put it there, I believe they will get their way. Remember, the Raiders moved BACK to Oakland while the 49ers were there. It might take throwing some extra millions to Pegula to make it happen, though.

 

In a weird way, I'd welcome another team as a Bills fan. A bit of competition in the general region, might serve to keep this team more competitive, year after year. You know what 'they" say: Winning cures everything. If the team wins, the fans will come.

[Mr. WEO]

I think Kryk has done a very good job here of illustrating two things:

 

1) This team was never, ever in danger of leaving

 

2) The Toronto group was kept around for bidding leverage, as many here surmised.

 

There are still some here who don't believe this. It's clear that the trust kept BJB group (even soliciting a higher bid from them after their initial bid) in it to drive up the bid.

[devldog131]

 

 

I believe would fight it. But if the NFL decides they want to put it there, I believe they will get their way. Remember, the Raiders moved BACK to Oakland while the 49ers were there. It might take throwing some extra millions to Pegula to make it happen, though.

 

In a weird way, I'd welcome another team as a Bills fan. A bit of competition in the general region, might serve to keep this team more competitive, year after year. You know what 'they" say: Winning cures everything. If the team wins, the fans will come.

 

The Raiders were able to move back to Oakland because Davis had engineered some kind of legal loophole in which the Raiders retained their territorial rights to Oakland and reserved the right to return if the LA market did not perform to certain expectations.

[Doc]

I believe would fight it. But if the NFL decides they want to put it there, I believe they will get their way. Remember, the Raiders moved BACK to Oakland while the 49ers were there. It might take throwing some extra millions to Pegula to make it happen, though.

The point I was trying to make is that 49'ers accepted the Raiders in their market in the AFL-NFL merger, so moving back shouldn't have been a problem for them either.

 

In a weird way, I'd welcome another team as a Bills fan. A bit of competition in the general region, might serve to keep this team more competitive, year after year. You know what 'they" say: Winning cures everything. If the team wins, the fans will come.

I don't think Toronto deserves a team. So I would say no.

 

There are still some here who don't believe this. It's clear that the trust kept BJB group (even soliciting a higher bid from them after their initial bid) in it to drive up the bid.

Yeah, but why were they never, ever in danger of leaving?