Evans or Moulds

[Kirby Jackson]

It was Moulds.

 

A better question is Evans or Stevie?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Kirby Jackson

[Lurker]

Just because something comes up in a google search doesnt make it true. One man's opinion is just that...an opinion.

Yeah, you're right...that's a pretty weak site, even if I agree with the order.

 

The Pro Football Reference link I posted after it (and again here) has a lot more meat to it: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-receiving.htm

 

I'll also admit, that I have a real antipathy for Johnson. I've seen talented WRs in the Bills unis over the years, and to me, Steve's just a 5-foot giant in the Lilliput land we've been stuck with in recent years...

[RalphOP83]

I think stevie makes great moves off of the line, and has a basketball essence to him. Athletically he's not the most gifted guy in the world. He would make a great # 2 if complimented by a true # 1.

 

In my opinion, Thurman should go down as one of the best receivers in Bills history. Catching the ball was a big part of his dynamic game. He was somewhat of a pioneer in a sense.

 

Personally, I think the receivers who have had the best and longest careers have partially benefitted from a great set of circumstances. From the quarterback, to other receivers, good tight ends, a solid running game, and especially a good coaching staff.

 

No position in the NFL is one size fits all these days. It's hard to compare players that play a different style to other players in their same position simply because they all fall under the same position name. You would not compare what Calvin Johnson does to what a guy like Wes Welker does. Its apples to oranges.

 

It seems to me that more and more the NFL is becoming a league where players are hybrid combinations of more than 1 position. Especially the offensive specialties. Vernon Davis is a 6'3" 254lb "Tight End" that runs a 4.38 40 yd dash. Calvin Johnson is a 6'5" 245lb receiver. Percy Harvin is a wide receiver that lines up regularly at running back. Tavon Austin will likely be lined up all over the field. There are many other examples of this, but you get the drift.

 

Simply ranking players in a vacuum is completely arbitrary. In the end I enjoy the thought provoking conversations, but for anyone to assume that their opinion is anything more than an opinion lends homage to the cliche about opinions and A-holes.

[mrags]

E. moulds by 1000 miles.

[Charles Romes]

Moulds never held the team hostage with salary demands and in his prime extended for significantly less than market so good players could be signed. We are taking about an all time great Bill.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Moulds, hands down.

[CardinalScotts]

what is really something to think about is the crappy qb's Moulds played with from

Todd Collins, Doug Flutie, Rob Johnson, Alex Van Pelt, Bledsoe, JP Losman, Kelly Holcomb

 

and still put up good numbers ...a better player than most of us realize

[bbb]

I think Moulds is second to Andre as all time Bills receiver, and by far the most talented. The only problem was he was super productive one year and then just OK the next.................I do know when they overlapped (I don't remember years that good anymore - so I'm not sure if Lee was a rookie or 2nd year when he really came into his own), I remember when the ball was going deep, I was just hoping it was Lee under it because I knew he'd catch it........And, Moulds at that time was not as reliable.

 

Evans really did start out great, but I don't think that's remembered.

[Grondre Reed]

moulds was a BEAST. best bills reciever ive seen play (i really was too young to remember reed in any significant detail)

 

i still have vivid memories catching a bomb behind the fins defense. getting caught by a dolphins DB...and then throwing the fins db to the ground...and finishing the trot for a touchdown.

 

maybe it wasnt the fins lol...but i do know that it was moulds...and that it was the year i started kindergarten.

[l< j]

The great thing is everyone agrees its Moulds, but this thread still has spawned heated arguments. Even when we agree, we disagree.

 

kj

[Beerball]

The great thing is everyone agrees its Moulds, but this thread still has spawned heated arguments. Even when we agree, we disagree.

 

kj

I disagree with what you are saying.

[Turbosrrgood]

Who's better, Jim Kelly or Kelly Holcomb?

[Beerball]

Who's better, Jim Kelly or Kelly Holcomb?

Kelly!

[Shoto]

I liked them both, I thought they were assets to bad teams.

 

They both were good Bills.

[BillsFanM.D.]

I'm late to this game and it's been said for five pages but.....Moulds by a very big margin.

[FleaMoulds80]

The great thing is everyone agrees its Moulds, but this thread still has spawned heated arguments. Even when we agree, we disagree.

 

kj

 

Cuz this was a stupid comparison in the first place. Now if he compared Moulds or Stevie, that would've been a MUCH more interesting debate.

[YoloinOhio]

MOULDS

[Buftex]

I think Moulds is second to Andre as all time Bills receiver, and by far the most talented. The only problem was he was super productive one year and then just OK the next.................I do know when they overlapped (I don't remember years that good anymore - so I'm not sure if Lee was a rookie or 2nd year when he really came into his own), I remember when the ball was going deep, I was just hoping it was Lee under it because I knew he'd catch it........And, Moulds at that time was not as reliable.

 

Evans really did start out great, but I don't think that's remembered.

 

Yes...i remember. There is a significant drop-off in the talent of QB's that Evans played with, from what Moulds played with. Moulds had, Jim Kelly, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, Rob Johnson, Doug Flutie and Drew Bledsoe throwing passed to him over his career...Kelly and Moulds didn't hook up all that many times, and it was Kellys' final season..Todd Collins and Alex Van Pelt were pretty sub-par, while Moulds had very productive games during the Futie/Johnson fiasco, and put up elite (or near elite) in the final good year that Bledsoe had left in him.

 

Evans had Bledsoe (in his worst year in Buffalo, 2004), Losman, Trent Edwards, Kelly Holcomb and Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing passes somewhere in his vicinity. Now, I won't make the rediculous claim that Evans was better than Moulds (he wasn't as versatile, but the offensive talent around him, I would argue was significantly worse..during Evans tenure he never had a legit complimetary receiver other than TO for 1 year, had good running backs with awful o-lines ), but it seems that people can't like one and the other...it has to be an either or thing.

 

Also, not being taken into account is that they were two very different receivers in styles and stature. They aren't really comperable.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Buftex

[thurst44]

Don't forget the heated Kelly vs. Flutie debates that we often wage here on the Wall.

Don't you mean Kelly vs. Rob Johnson? {running away}

[Lv-Bills]

Which do you think was better?

Is this a serious question?

 

Update: Dang, I didn't even see that this had 5 pages.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Lv-Bills

[dave mcbride]

Yes...i remember. There is a significant drop-off in the talent of QB's that Evans played with, from what Moulds played with. Moulds had, Jim Kelly, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, Rob Johnson, Doug Flutie and Drew Bledsoe throwing passed to him over his career...Kelly and Moulds didn't hook up all that many times, and it was Kellys' final season..Todd Collins and Alex Van Pelt were pretty sub-par, while Moulds had very productive games during the Futie/Johnson fiasco, and put up elite (or near elite) in the final good year that Bledsoe had left in him.

 

Evans had Bledsoe (in his worst year in Buffalo, 2004), Losman, Trent Edwards, Kelly Holcomb and Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing passes somewhere in his vicinity. Now, I won't make the rediculous claim that Evans was better than Moulds (he wasn't as versatile, but the offensive talent around him, I would argue was significantly worse..during Evans tenure he never had a legit complimetary receiver other than TO for 1 year, had good running backs with awful o-lines ), but it seems that people can't like one and the other...it has to be an either or thing.

 

Also, not being taken into account is that they were two very different receivers in styles and stature. They aren't really comperable.

 

Flutie and Moulds had a fantastic rappoir. Seriously.

 

In fact, Moulds' best game (in my opinion) came in the most unjust NFL game I've watched in my lifetime:

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199811290nwe.htm

Edited May 8, 2013 by dave mcbride

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Flutie and Moulds had a fantastic rappoir. Seriously.

 

In fact, Moulds' best game (in my opinion) came in the most unjust NFL game I've watched in my lifetime:

 

http://www.pro-footb...99811290nwe.htm

 

Geez Dave. You're being even more French than the French!

 

[bbb]

Yes...i remember. There is a significant drop-off in the talent of QB's that Evans played with, from what Moulds played with. Moulds had, Jim Kelly, Todd Collins, Alex Van Pelt, Rob Johnson, Doug Flutie and Drew Bledsoe throwing passed to him over his career...Kelly and Moulds didn't hook up all that many times, and it was Kellys' final season..Todd Collins and Alex Van Pelt were pretty sub-par, while Moulds had very productive games during the Futie/Johnson fiasco, and put up elite (or near elite) in the final good year that Bledsoe had left in him.

 

Evans had Bledsoe (in his worst year in Buffalo, 2004), Losman, Trent Edwards, Kelly Holcomb and Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing passes somewhere in his vicinity. Now, I won't make the rediculous claim that Evans was better than Moulds (he wasn't as versatile, but the offensive talent around him, I would argue was significantly worse..during Evans tenure he never had a legit complimetary receiver other than TO for 1 year, had good running backs with awful o-lines ), but it seems that people can't like one and the other...it has to be an either or thing.

 

Also, not being taken into account is that they were two very different receivers in styles and stature. They aren't really comperable.

 

It must have been 2004 that I'm thinking of. I think Lee really came on strong in the 2nd half of the year when we made that 6 game run. At that one point in time, he was better than Moulds.

[DrDawkinstein]

Lee Evans, all day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PSYCH! Moulds without question.

[MDH]

Also, a lot of people like to point to SJ's three consecutive 1,000 yard seasons (in the most pass-heavy era the league has ever known), while Moulds was 102 yards away from FIVE consecutive 1,000 yard seasons, back when it was a run-first league.

 

And this without the benefit of a quality QB to throw him the ball. I always felt badly for him that he never got to realize his full potential with the jokes at QB the Bills fielded. If Moulds played with a HoF type QB I'm convinced he'd be on his way to the HoF.

[RevWarRifleman]

Is this even a real question? Come on, man, it's E. Moulds all day long. Not even close.

+1

[K-Gun10]

the question should be Evans or Stevie?

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Tougher question:

 

Moulds as a Texan vs. Evans as a Raven?

[Storm Front]

Moulds or Lofton or Lofton or Reed would be a better conversation.

[Cash]

the question should be Evans or Stevie?

 

I tried to post the following in the "Evans or Stevie" thread that got locked. Apparently, this is the only thread that allows player vs. player discussion, or maybe just WR vs. WR discussion? Honestly, it seems like the mods are slacking, because I'd say at least 90% of the threads in this forum fall under the topic of "Buffalo Bills Discussion", yet less than half of them get locked or merged. Anyway, I put too much work into my reply to let to dissolve into the ether, so I'm posting it here:

 

-----------------

[Evans vs. Stevie]

 

Not really a fair question. Evans played 7 years for the Bills, Stevie's only played 5, and was a non-factor for the first 2:

 

Lee Evans w/ Bills: 109 games (102 starts), 377 rec., 5934 yards, 43 TDs, 15.7 yards/catch, 54.4 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Stevie's first 5 years: 64 games (46 starts), 249 rec., 3235 yards, 25 TDs, 13.0 yards/catch, 50.5 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Evans' first 5 years: 80 games (73 starts), 296 rec., 4745 yards, 32 TDs, 16.0 yards/catch, 59.3 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Stevie in years 3-5 (2010-2012): 48 games (45 starts), 237 rec., 3123 yards, 23 TDs, 13.6 yards/catch, 65.1 yards/game, 0.5 TDs/game

 

Evans in years 3-5 (2006-2008): 48 games (47 starts), 200 rec., 3159 yards, 16 TDs*, 15.8 yards/catch, 65.8 yards/game, 0.3 TDs/game*

 

It's definitely Evans so far, but Stevie's career is (hopefully) less than half over. If Stevie's next 3 years are comparable to his last 3 years, he'll overtake Evans. Then again, if Evans had been able to keep up his early-career production, he might well still be a Bill. This is why I don't like comparing an active player to a retired player, especially a guy who's in his prime. There's no way of knowing how long that prime will last. Even if he stays healthy, some guys just tail off.

 

 

*Evans' best 3-year stretch for TDs was his first 3 years (2004-2006): 24 TDs, 0.5 TDs/game. 2008 was his second-best statistical season in receptions & yards, but his career-worst season for TDs as a Bill with only 3. Then he had a pretty bad year in 2009 (44 rec/612 yds), but bounced back to 7 TDs. Go figure.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Nice breakdown Cash.

[dave mcbride]

Tougher question:

 

Moulds as a Texan vs. Evans as a Raven?

 

You mean Moulds as a Titan. I decide by asking the following question: did Moulds drop a game winning pass that would have put his team in the SUper Bowl?

[uncle flap]

You mean Moulds as a Titan. I decide by asking the following question: did Moulds drop a game winning pass that would have put his team in the SUper Bowl?

 

Did Evans?

 

 

I know the play to which you're referring, but I'd hardly call that a "drop."

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

You mean Moulds as a Titan. I decide by asking the following question: did Moulds drop a game winning pass that would have put his team in the SUper Bowl?

 

I am pretty sure he played with the Texans (across from Andre Johnson).

 

This is really a tough one. I think Moulds was average despite playing alongside a great WR, but Evans got serious playing time down the stretch for a contender, including being the go-to guy for said dropped TD.

 

I would go with Moulds (Hou) over Evans (Balt), based on fewer critical errors and fewer injuries.

[KD in CA]

Tougher question:

 

Moulds as a Texan vs. Evans as a Raven?

Not really. That comparison is as lopsided as their years with the Bills. Moulds caught 57 passes for Houston (and 32 more for Tenn the next year) when he was 33/34 years old. Evans (only 30 years old), caught 4 passes all year for the Ravens; and allowed some 9th string CB to strip the conference championship out of his hands.

 

I tried to post the following in the "Evans or Stevie" thread that got locked. Apparently, this is the only thread that allows player vs. player discussion, or maybe just WR vs. WR discussion? Honestly, it seems like the mods are slacking, because I'd say at least 90% of the threads in this forum fall under the topic of "Buffalo Bills Discussion", yet less than half of them get locked or merged. Anyway, I put too much work into my reply to let to dissolve into the ether, so I'm posting it here:

 

-----------------

[Evans vs. Stevie]

 

Not really a fair question. Evans played 7 years for the Bills, Stevie's only played 5, and was a non-factor for the first 2:

 

Lee Evans w/ Bills: 109 games (102 starts), 377 rec., 5934 yards, 43 TDs, 15.7 yards/catch, 54.4 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Stevie's first 5 years: 64 games (46 starts), 249 rec., 3235 yards, 25 TDs, 13.0 yards/catch, 50.5 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Evans' first 5 years: 80 games (73 starts), 296 rec., 4745 yards, 32 TDs, 16.0 yards/catch, 59.3 yards/game, 0.4 TDs/game

 

Stevie in years 3-5 (2010-2012): 48 games (45 starts), 237 rec., 3123 yards, 23 TDs, 13.6 yards/catch, 65.1 yards/game, 0.5 TDs/game

 

Evans in years 3-5 (2006-2008): 48 games (47 starts), 200 rec., 3159 yards, 16 TDs*, 15.8 yards/catch, 65.8 yards/game, 0.3 TDs/game*

 

It's definitely Evans so far, but Stevie's career is (hopefully) less than half over. If Stevie's next 3 years are comparable to his last 3 years, he'll overtake Evans. Then again, if Evans had been able to keep up his early-career production, he might well still be a Bill. This is why I don't like comparing an active player to a retired player, especially a guy who's in his prime. There's no way of knowing how long that prime will last. Even if he stays healthy, some guys just tail off.

 

 

*Evans' best 3-year stretch for TDs was his first 3 years (2004-2006): 24 TDs, 0.5 TDs/game. 2008 was his second-best statistical season in receptions & yards, but his career-worst season for TDs as a Bill with only 3. Then he had a pretty bad year in 2009 (44 rec/612 yds), but bounced back to 7 TDs. Go figure.

Good analysis, but I think it's a little unfair to SJ by virtue of the fact he was a 7th round pick so no one gave him a chance. Meanwhile Evans was #1 so was a presumtive starter from draft day on. As you point out, SJ already has slightly better stats in years 3-5. If we compare their first 3 years as a starter, the advantage wieghs a little more heavily to SJ:

 

SJ: 237/3123/23 (years 3-5)

 

LE: 178/2878/24 (years 1-3)

[atlbillsfan1975]

Flutie and Moulds had a fantastic rappoir. Seriously.

 

In fact, Moulds' best game (in my opinion) came in the most unjust NFL game I've watched in my lifetime:

 

http://www.pro-footb...99811290nwe.htm

I remember watching that game with a gf. I got so pissed at the call i kicked a table across the room...such b.s. Beginning of the N.E home cooking era!!!

[Buftex]

I am pretty sure he played with the Texans (across from Andre Johnson).

 

This is really a tough one. I think Moulds was average despite playing alongside a great WR, but Evans got serious playing time down the stretch for a contender, including being the go-to guy for said dropped TD.

 

I would go with Moulds (Hou) over Evans (Balt), based on fewer critical errors and fewer injuries.

 

Yes, Moulds played for the Texans before he ended his career, as a Titan. When Moulds went to Houston, and Tennessee for that matter, he was a shell of himself. Evans missed, what, 3 starts as a Bill, but most of his only season in Balitmore injured. Sadly, he will be remembered, in Baltimore only for the dropped (or was it "not caught") pass in the AFC Championship game.

 

I will admit, Evans is probably my favorite Buffalo Bill of the last 12 years (this dark period), and I honestly think, the years of futility took its' toll on him in Buffalo. If the Bills could have ever had a stable QB situation during his time, I think he might still be having a productive NFL career. I remember reading a story about him, during the hype for this years Super Bowl...it almost sounded like the years in Buffalo kind of snuffed his passion for the game. I just remember he said that his one year in Baltimore (essentially saying "playing for a legit franchise") kind of woke up his passion for playing, something that he thought had left him at the end of his career in Buffalo. I know that will likely piss a lot of people off, but I think it is probably more common than we know. Losing and ineptness are a slippery slope.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Yes, Moulds played for the Texans before he ended his career, as a Titan. When Moulds went to Houston, and Tennessee for that matter, he was a shell of himself. Evans missed, what, 3 starts as a Bill, but most of his only season in Balitmore injured. Sadly, he will be remembered, in Baltimore only for the dropped (or was it "not caught") pass in the AFC Championship game.

 

I will admit, Evans is probably my favorite Buffalo Bill of the last 12 years (this dark period), and I honestly think, the years of futility took its' toll on him in Buffalo. If the Bills could have ever had a stable QB situation during his time, I think he might still be having a productive NFL career. I remember reading a story about him, during the hype for this years Super Bowl...it almost sounded like the years in Buffalo kind of snuffed his passion for the game. I just remember he said that his one year in Baltimore (essentially saying "playing for a legit franchise") kind of woke up his passion for playing, something that he thought had left him at the end of his career in Buffalo. I know that will likely piss a lot of people off, but I think it is probably more common than we know. Losing and ineptness are a slippery slope.

 

I don't think that it should piss people off. It is what it is. I think that a large part of my excitement with the new coaching staff is that they bring that passion for the game. A culture change was necessary and seems to be taking place.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I will admit, Evans is probably my favorite Buffalo Bill of the last 12 years (this dark period), and I honestly think, the years of futility took its' toll on him in Buffalo. If the Bills could have ever had a stable QB situation during his time, I think he might still be having a productive NFL career. I remember reading a story about him, during the hype for this years Super Bowl...it almost sounded like the years in Buffalo kind of snuffed his passion for the game. I just remember he said that his one year in Baltimore (essentially saying "playing for a legit franchise") kind of woke up his passion for playing, something that he thought had left him at the end of his career in Buffalo. I know that will likely piss a lot of people off, but I think it is probably more common than we know. Losing and ineptness are a slippery slope.

 

If playing WR with Trent Edwards as your QB doesn't zap the passion from you, I don't know what will. How many times did we all wonder why Edwards wasn't even attempting a ball to a receiver? Nothing more frustrating than running 40 routes out there, and getting zero balls thrown your way.

[Bufcomments]

Which do you think was better?

Moulds....

 

next question ?